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S.D.
06-29-2009, 06:04 AM
Charles Manson and Marilyn Monroe.

I don't believe the significance of these two personalities has been scrutinised enough in relation to Marilyn Manson. We are all aware of the basic reason why the names were chosen, and the polarity between their lives, genders and representations. However, I believe that Marilyn Manson evokes their essence more overtly than some might think. I wrote this elsewhere, but it was lost, and so I shall place it here. I was reading some quotations from Charles Manson a while ago, and saw something interesting:-


Charles Manson: "If you're going to do something, do it well. And leave something witchy."


In the Revolver article late last year, Manson described some of The High End of Low as being "witchy", and so I was struck when reading the above quote. Additionally, despite it being a theme visited in relation to many other cultural signifiers, one of the suggested reasons for Charles Manson's pathos was that he believed the Armageddon was approaching, and when it didn't come, he started to influence the Family murders in order to bring it about. I am not suggesting that Arma-Goddamn-Motherfuckin'-Geddon relates obliquely to Charles Manson, but it seems interesting that such a theme should be visited in a year which marks forty years following the Manson occurences, and that music from the record would be referred to using such uncommon terminology.

During the recording process for The Golden Age of Grotesque, much was made of Manson's fascination with The Black Dahlia, and this was an influence on some of the ideas explred in [I]Spade. The imagery of the era has been discussed in relation to the notion of Lustmord, and corresponding pictures of Dita Von Teese based on other media confirm that, but I did remember that photographs taken in the studio showed that the influence of another female murder victim was present during this time; Sharon Tate:-


http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp112/providermodule/Analysis/Tate.jpg


The framed image in the background is a crime scene photograph of Tate's body.

Some of this material is vague, and perhaps the thoughts of others will help to consolidate further, but I felt looking at these points might prove interesting.

Moving on to Marilyn Monroe, I had recently wanted to instigate a topic about Diamonds, seeing as they have featured in Manson's work on more than one occasion, specifically in (s)AINT*, and of course Diamonds and Pollen.


*"You infected me, took diamonds
I took all your shit"


Diamonds are of course, a girl's best friend, as stated in Gentlemen Prefer Blondes. From Doll-Dagga-Buzz Buzz-Zigetty-Zag:- "I don't really care what gentlemen prefer."

I think that maybe this repeated idea of diamonds might refer to female sexuality. I remember the line from Spade, in which Manson says "I'm a diamond that is tired, of all the faces I've acquired", I was always intrigued by this line, as it seems very esoteric, and I think from other areas, it is the feminine side of the Manson personality talking.

I'd like to discuss this diamond idea further, but relating back to Marilyn Monroe, I think that her essence is often instilled in Manson's work. The discussion once undertaken about the "star" of Manson's lyrics remind me of her a lot, particularly in the song EAT ME, DRINK ME, as Monroe was said to be suicidal towards the end of her life, but no one knows whether she actually killed herself, or if it was an accident - "She's been forecast with an attempt to kill herself, but the ending didn't test well".

So this is me trying to locate more about the two sides of the name in Marilyn Manson, as I think there is more to be found. Hopefully we can explore this further.

Not Mechanical
06-29-2009, 09:17 AM
However obvious, I feel it may be worth nothing how similar ideas seem to have been used in other areas of Marilyn Manson's work, though I know this has been discussed before at other outlets.
For example:
Marilyn and Manson
Antichrist Superstar
Mechanical Animals
The Golden Age of Grotesque
The High End of Low

The placing together of what some people view as opposites (though, obviously, looking further into these things, the lines are significantly blurred), the good and the bad, draws obvious references to some of the key themes underpinning a lot of Manson's work, namely the hypocrisy and double standards of American society.

RevManz
06-29-2009, 02:47 PM
Charles Manson and Marilyn Monroe.

I'd like to discuss this diamond idea further, but relating back to Marilyn Monroe, I think that her essence is often instilled in Manson's work. The discussion once undertaken about the "star" of Manson's lyrics remind me of her a lot, particularly in the song EAT ME, DRINK ME, as Monroe was said to be suicidal towards the end of her life, but no one knows whether she actually killed herself, or if it was an accident - "She's been forecast with an attempt to kill herself, but the ending didn't test well".

So this is me trying to locate more about the two sides of the name in Marilyn Manson, as I think there is more to be found. Hopefully we can explore this further.

actually, i remember you (?) or someone one else discuusing that song, with ''your'' referring to Manson---and how the girl could have represented Manson. heh, this, i feel, just makes it more concrete.

cool observation.

S.D.
06-30-2009, 12:49 AM
The placing together of what some people view as opposites (though, obviously, looking further into these things, the lines are significantly blurred), the good and the bad, draws obvious references to some of the key themes underpinning a lot of Manson's work, namely the hypocrisy and double standards of American society.

You know, I actually made the suggestion once that whether intentional or not, you could be ambitious and locate Marilyn Monroe and Charles Manson in Portrait of an American Family. Consider that Marilyn was perhaps the "portrait" of the "all American", and Charles was of course the leader of the "Family", the two being at opposite ends in terms of public opinion.

The Empirical Guy
06-30-2009, 02:35 AM
You know, I actually made the suggestion once that whether intentional or not, you could be ambitious and locate Marilyn Monroe and Charles Manson in Portrait of an American Family. Consider that Marilyn was perhaps the "portrait" of the "all American", and Charles was of course the leader of the "Family", the two being at opposite ends in terms of public opinion.

Although I never spotted it myself, I really don't think that is being that ambitious.

While I don't have anything to add, I find this topic very interesting.

S.D.
06-30-2009, 03:21 AM
Although I never spotted it myself, I really don't think that is being that ambitious.

I think that was meant more in the sense of it not being necessarily the angle that was intended when the title was chosen.

It's also worth noting that like Marilyn Manson, neither Charles Manson or Marilyn Monroe was the actual name of either person. Monroe was born Norma Jean Mortensen (later Baker), and Charles was born (no name initially) Charles Milles Maddox, but his father's surname was apparently Scott. The Manson came from a man his mother married when Charles was an infant.

Two Faced Egg (23)
05-08-2015, 02:10 PM
Great ideas , I like this .. So I will be graspin' for straws again lol' (on a Scarecrow ?) .. Charles Manson and Marilyn Monroe. One is a Mind Controller ..the other Mind Controlled , One is still alive and the other is dead , both famously attached to southern California , .. one has 3 sons & a Daughter and the other wanted children , but it always ended terribly tragic ..one seen a lot of fuckin' Jail cells throughout his life but the Good Lady did not. So I should End this , with a thoughtful theory that it shall be symbolic to the project of Mr.Manson's when Charles Manson finally dies. Cheers' (23)

Manson15Marilyn
07-07-2015, 06:53 PM
Being who he is, this is always going to be an interesting topic. I'm afraid I don't know a lot about Monroe, but I feel like the Marilyn side is just all the sexual imagery and the femininity in the androgynous characters. I don't know how much more Monroe's influence could have had. Other than that, I think the main idea is that Manson is as famous as Monroe especially since he is known for doing things people think he did (it's all about how people view him and how they reflect toward him).


If you're afraid of me, there's something wrong with you.

In 1981 (?), Charlie Manson was recorded by an inmate singing songs and the recording made it to the outside world and sold in certain places. In one song in particular, curious enough, Charlie begins singing, " Marilyn Monroe was my childhood shame, my dreamer, my dream machine." Oddly specific if you ask me. Marilyn Manson has been quoted as saying, in 1990 iirc, that he owned Charlie's 1969 album LIE: The Love and Terror Cult (the name came from the LIFE magazine cover about the "Manson family" only with the 'F' purposely omitted), but it was obvious that he at least heard it when you hear the lyrics from My Monkey.
They're from a song by Charlie called Mechanical Man, about a boy who was sheltered at home, kept in the "back yard" from exploring the world and learning, and growing up confused and trapped lingering on the past. The part about the monkey is thought to be about the celebrity dying in the public eye and the tragedy it's made out to be. In My Monkey, Marilyn Manson uses recorded samples of Charlie Manson throughout each version of the song.


The world of madness is a lot bigger than the world of sane

I'm the pope. I'm 10x the pope. I'm 50x the pope. But I'm the pope in the hills, and in the mountains.

Yeah, I sing loud. I sing real loud.

I play music. People are affected by the music I play. That doesn't mean I directed traffic, that I put a knife in someone's hand and then told them to kill somebody.

People really are crazy, and they need somebody to put it off on

Why are the children doing what they're doing? Why does a child reach up and kill his mom and dad, his two little sisters, and then cut his throat?

Sanity is a little box

You see these kids all moving like that, and then you say 'Is this your conspiracy to make those kids move like that?' because YOU showed those kids and then they went out and killed somebody

Raise up children, kill your moms and dads

The TV is their moms and dads

Let me take you to strawberry fields where nothing is real but the medication and the nothingness. And then they cut their wrists, write 'I love you god' all over the walls, and hang themselves on the ventelaters

They holler for the kids to do something, and then when the kids do it they say those kids are all fucked up
Charlie Manson echoes in Marilyn Manson's lyrics. Marilyn Manson has taken a lot of influences over the years, but Charlie Manson was one of the biggest influences and I'd go as far to say he sparked the idea Marilyn Manson. These quotes follow awfully close with many of Marilyn Manson's concepts and lyrics. And whether or not Charlie Manson did have a cult and controlled young minds with psychic powers is not the issue when it comes to Marilyn Manson. It's the fact that people assumed it that way and saw him like that. As Charlie famously said as a closing statement in court:


Mr. and Mrs. America, you are wrong. I am not the king of the Jews nor am I a hippie cult leader. I am what you have made me. And the mad-dog-devil-killer-fiend-leper is a reflection of your society.People ate it up, this story about what Manson allegedly did. They were entertained by it, and they all jumped to the conclusions without facts (as few were there at the hearings).

At the beginning of the original mix of Dope Hat - featured on the demo tape 'The Family Jams', we can hear:


Voice: ...'Manson family, your friends

Charlie: The "Manson family" was a music group. The music group I had was called The Family Jams. All the guys played, and all the girls sang in the music group. It had nothing to do with a cult. It was a music group.The thing of it is, if Charlie Manson didn't do anything like the media said he did, then who was the cult leader, the murderer, the false christ? That exists in the minds of every person who saw him that way, projecting their minds onto him, painting him as the antagonist they fear in themselves. And Charlie Manson seemed well aware of this as it is a common theme in his lyrics as well. Like in a song called Look at Your Love, featured on the self-titled 1970 album 'The Family Jams':

This court of law, they hide my words; the truth in words you've never heard. Why do they fear and see in me inside themselves I know you see?

It's narcissis narcosis. It's how people project their images onto figures like Charlie Manson and celebrate his fame just as they celebrate the fame of characters like Marilyn Monroe. Plus, i can sense a bit of a concept that ones you percieve as 'bad' may actually not be all bad and people you see as 'good may actually not be as perfect as you thought they were (Monroe's affair with Kennedy, lots of sex outside wedlock, alleged drug use, etc)

Mercurius
07-09-2015, 03:36 AM
Great points, everyone! What I believe is even more important than Monroe's and Mansons actual achievements and personas, is their media resonance and image. Whilst looking at each character separately, as they are presented and covered in the media, they appear to be quite one-dimensional. When juxtaposing their names and corresponding connotations, however, both gain depth and become more nuanced. The discrepancy between them decreases, for both suddenly seem to be more multi-layered. It reminds me of the “objet trouve” in Surrealism.
Marcel Duchamp
http://www.artinlimbo.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/duchamp-with-bicycle-wheel-1913.jpg
Lee Miler
http://thebenitoreport.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/11/27/lee_miller_space.jpg
A seemingly meaningless object is given another context, becomes a fetish, and gains relevance through a new, in this case, artistic context.
The unity of the dichotomies has always stood for a higher being- Übermensch, Baphomet. In Surrealism, the Hermaphrodite is an important topic, as well.
“He dreams he is happy; that his corporeal nature has changed; or at least that he has flown off upon a purple cloud of another sphere peopled by beings of the same kind as himself. Alas! May his illusion last till dawn’s awakening! He dreams the flowers dance round him in a ring like immense demented garlands, and impregnate him with their balmy perfumes while he sings a hymn of love, locked in the arms of a magically beautiful human being. But it is merely twilight mist he embraces, and when he wakes their arms will no longer be entwined. Awaken not, hermaphrodite. Do not wake yet, I beg you. Why will you not believe me? Sleep … sleep forever. May your breast heave while pursuing the chimerical hope of happiness — that I allow you; but do not open your eyes. Ah! do not open your eyes.”
― Comte de Lautréamont, Maldoror and the Complete Works, about the Hermaphrodite


“Although according to certain philosophers it is quite difficult to distinguish the jester from the melancholic, life itself being a comic drama or a dramatic comedy.”
― Comte de Lautréamont, Maldoror and the Complete Works
Leonor Fini
http://www.weinstein.com/artists/leonor-fini/images/lalcove-sm.jpg
Claude Cahun, the physical manifestation of the Hermaphrodite
http://3qk03r3wav8p9e8t232mj341.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Claude-Cahun-Que-me-veux-tu-1928.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-e7ln9xMISbo/TiIh7MnGpzI/AAAAAAAABn0/mUkw6ujj6eA/s400/Claude_Cahun+2.jpg
https://afiches.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/cc.jpg
In Conclusion, one might add, that Marilyn Manson takes two fragmentary, infamous and heavily aestheticized identities, which both are "masks", so to say, and juxtaposes them, to form a construct, a drag queen, a dictator, an alien, a dandy. All these are images which can be quickly labeled. All these characters are there to be turned into a notorious piece of journalism. They are so cliché they are interesting again- and they are all contradictory. The juxtaposition is the answer to the question, not the product itself.

S.D.
07-09-2015, 05:10 AM
Claude Cahun, the physical manifestation of the Hermaphrodite
http://3qk03r3wav8p9e8t232mj341.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Claude-Cahun-Que-me-veux-tu-1928.jpg


http://www.providermodule.com/Administrators/S.D./Miscellaneous/mm_third_day.jpg

Two Faced Egg (23)
07-09-2015, 11:38 AM
W0wzers' ! That is all BEautiful ! I am liking this thread more & more .. Thanks & I appreciate it !