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View Full Version : Celebritarian - A Discussion



S.D.
07-06-2009, 04:30 AM
I'm not certain about the thoughts of others, because I know that the idea of Celebritarian was so relative to the infamous "code" system, but I still don't think that the notion has been discussed and explored to its full potential. There seems to have been several "faces" to Celebritarian, ones which were perhaps at times, opposed to one another, but relative to the overall concept nonetheless. From my observations, the Celebritarian Corporation was the "exclusive" face of the concept, the area that had "members" or contributors to its aesthetic criteria, and those names have been cited as artists, actors, photographers and musicians. However, I think there was a sense in which certain people expected this aspect of Celebritarian to somehow coincide or interact with what is undeniably the larger, more esoteric fibre of the vehicle, which is the very process of the spectator and performer relationship.

The "code" system was a decoy, a game, a whimsical invention and nothing more. I am fully convinced of that. Whilst I won't suggest that the numbers and ciphers were not significant, what I observed when they were in operation was that certain characters sought to make them representative of ownership, as opposed to participation. They were devised as an aspect of Celebritarianism, but were in essence, the Marilyn Manson facet of that concept. In my personal opinion there is a greater significance to Celebritarianism, that has not only been an implement of Manson's work since the very day that his moniker was chosen, but in essence transcends him as a person, or an artist. I believe to some degree this is what The High End of Low, EAT ME, DRINK ME and The Golden Age of Grotesque have identified, that each time Marilyn Manson says that an album is entirely about him, and his ideas, people will not accept that, and they must look for something else underneath, some metaphor, some tangent that might help them to relate it to their own ideas or feelings. The bi-product of this, as we must surely be able to agree is that people then seek to see themselves in the person who made the record, and this is when the "wolves" arrive at the door.

If something about Marilyn Manson's personal life does not configure with how we ourselves operate, and in turn (by default) how we would like to see him do the same, the confusion mounts and we have to find ways to comprehend this. I'm not suggesting it is wrong, but we should be able to understand the relationship between the performer and the spectator, and find ways to establish what it is that makes us tear them to shreds, or exalt them. Is our perception of their personality and output made from what they have shown us, or is it composed from how we have reacted to that? Some may see The High End of Low as a triumphant, debauched statement of intent, whilst others see it as an admission of weakness. Celebritarianism was surely about finding ways to relinquish this, or to embrace it so that Art can be appreciated from whatever angle it represents itself, not from the angle which its creator has presented it. Is The High End of Low a Marilyn Manson album, or is it an album about Marilyn Manson? How do we visualise these artefacts? Do we attach the personal ideas we have an individual, or do we approach from the perspective they have instructed us to? Can these artworks be separate and exist in their own right?

Returning to the larger concept of Celebritarianism, is there more to learn, are there more ideas and definitions this "movement" can have attributed to it? I think there may be, and I am interested in the thoughts of others on this matter. I should add that the text here is not necessarily the direction I wanted to steer the conversation in, they were merely my initial thoughts, but feel free to ignore or respond to them accordingly, or discuss something entirely different in relation to this subject.

One last thing I wanted to suggest, is that perhaps Celebritarianism could be identified as being relative to one of the symbols that have often been noted in Manson's work by various sources. I have only seen this compared to cyclical elements such as the Tryptych, or the notion of beginnings and endings. I was however intrigued by the ideas that the snake eating its own tail could be a Celebritarian model, in the sense that the world is observed by artists and consumed by their audiences, but the process will sometimes destroy the reputation of one and the faith of another. Is it an occurence that can be avoided, or is it an inherent aspect of the spectator/performer dynamic?


http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp112/providermodule/Analysis/Snaketail.jpg


More importantly, how much of this was conceived as part of Marilyn Manson's original plan for Celebritarian, and how much should we be prepared to work out for ourselves?

I look forward to any thoughts.

-<me>-
08-07-2009, 12:17 AM
I have searched and the origin of JFK with the Longines Watch Co. background that appeared in the old incarnation of MM.com has yet to be uncovered.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w307/picatya/MMcomnews.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w307/picatya/MMcomcopy.jpg

http://www.archive.org/details/longines-jfk

AlcoholicArtist
10-04-2009, 03:51 AM
Brilliant ideas S.D.!

[god]speed
10-06-2009, 06:22 AM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3619/3541578774_d49101d9e8_o.jpg



Created by [myself]



ADAM'S REVOLUTION BECOMES JUST ANOTHER PRODUCT


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2403/3540960150_ae3c5c5606_o.jpg


...So He Must DOUBLE CROSS it. To Create a New Rome Like Nero.

S.D.
10-06-2009, 08:26 AM
I spoke with someone recently about the notion of whether one can consider themselves a Celebritarian, or be a student of the shcool of thought, and the contesting argument was that as Manson was creator of the movement, and the ideas that instigated it, he retains the say on whether someone is considered a Celebritarian or not. I respect the opinion, but at the same time, disagree entirely. I think that Celebritarianism is a far bigger idea than being confined to Marilyn Manson, or to those who he named as belonging to his "Corporation". I think that even that name in itself was a ruse, or even a joke to some degree, on the basis of it being "Corporate". Surely something corporate can be incorporated, or rather diluted? I think the Celebritarian Corporation was a deliberate smokescreen for at least two significant phrases:-


"They orchestrated dramatic new scenes for Celebritarian needs"
"The opinion with which you will inevitably agree"


Can you see how these two are interlocked? The notion of controlling or "creating" how someone might think or feel about culture, art, entertainment, politics, et cetera. I think that is crucial to the understanding of Celebritarianism, the degree to which we are this mirror for what is on a stage or screen, we are just not able to witness our own personal versions of it, even though we project our own feelings, fears, anxieties and desires onto faces and personalities that are supplied by the media. We orchestrate the scenes, and we create opinions with which we will inevitably agree. But is there a we when I AM YOU? That is why it negates there being a corporation, I feel. After all, we're all stars now...

-<me>-
10-06-2009, 04:13 PM
I spoke with someone recently about the notion of whether one can consider themselves a Celebritarian, or be a student of the shcool of thought, and the contesting argument was that as Manson was creator of the movement, and the ideas that instigated it, he retains the say on whether someone is considered a Celebritarian or not.
I think the Celebritarian Corporation was a deliberate smokescreen for at least two significant phrases:-


"They orchestrated dramatic new scenes for Celebritarian needs"
"The opinion with which you will inevitably agree"


Of course anyone can be Celebritarian, much as anyone can be Christian. The deification of celebrity.

"Build a new god to medicate and to ape"

Celebritarian Needs, are what the Corporation feeds. Hence, "Dramatic new scenes for Celebritarian needs".

"this is a new religion to me"

sugarbaby
10-06-2009, 09:25 PM
It's forever been said that if you act like a celebrity,you will be treated as such!
I say this is true.

[god]speed
10-06-2009, 10:54 PM
Look what I found :)

"There has always been a desire for me to live in a world that doesnít really exist to a lot of other people. Iíve found an idea of a religion or a political party or an art movement or a philosophy that could have been discovered in some way; whether it be in your mind or in someoneís attic would be a great way to begin a story. That story could be in real life or in a book or film. I had this concept that came to me upon stumbling through various documents that hinted at and led to all the elements that are contained within the Celebritarian ideal and all of its incarnations.

"When I first tried to represent it in a novel, it was used as part of a metaphor or parable of sorts that made a point to satirize all of the different aspects and ugliness of each and every belief system. That also had to include my place in pop culture and the people who listen to me and the people who dislike me because I had clearly become far deeper into the culture that I was criticizing - especially during and in the wake of Columbine. I had to criticize and defend myself. I should never defend my art, because defending myself was through my art. There was no point in ever defending the art itself.

"I think Celebritarianism is best defined by whoever is interested in it. That doesnít mean that it has no universal meaning. It just means that people who donít understand what it is arenít going to understand it if theyíre explained it, although I donít think thereís any wrong way to understand it, either. Itís a little complex in that it could never be a religion of sorts that had any sort of organization because it is much like DaDa and surrealism. It doesnít even believe in the world it exists in, so therefore it itself cannot exist, unless it acknowledges that it is something that is too abstract to define. Then it becomes a complete mindfuck where you become lost inside yourself.

"Letting go and getting lost in yourself is kind of the center of where I find my life now. I find my life moving forward and elements of that contain the idea of being a celebrity -- and thatís probably the least important element of the word Ė- which would seem like itís the most obvious, relevant point of it, because itís almost a play on the word. Itís more about, for me, looking back at all the art Iíve created, itís about the examination of our cultureís desire to really enjoy - whether admitted or not Ė a guilty enjoyment of the worship of death; the worship of martyrdom; the promotion of fame at any cost; dying when thereís enough people watching. It's an idea that has been implanted in peopleís heads that has created a culture that spawns the assassination of John F. Kennedy; that spawns the Oklahoma bombings; that spawns Harris and Klebold; that spawns 9/11. People realizing full well that they can get exactly what they want and weíre always willing to give it to them. So, in that sense, Celebritarianism realizes and acknowledges that.

"In a sense, it is a journalistic art approach that is an attack and a complete and utter desire to destroy what journalism has become. If it were a magazine, it would be something that caught fire when you opened it and burned your hands because you deserved it for reading it. Thatís a bit of an explanation to let people delve into it much more than they want. I chose to call it Celebritarian Corporation because I think that provides a further irony into what it represents. Itís a group of artists that is continuing to grow and weíve combined together. People who are in a stage in their lives where theyíve accomplished enough to get to the point where Ė sometimes you donít realize that youíre at the point that you worked for. I almost, unfortunately, missed out on the part that you dream about getting to. I almost got to this point and wanted to give up because of frustration and negativity that was draped over me like a wet blanket."

-Marilyn Manson, Dramatic New Scenes Interview



Of course anyone can be Celebritarian, much as anyone can be Christian. The deification of celebrity.

"Build a new god to medicate and to ape"

Celebritarian Needs, are what the Corporation feeds. Hence, "Dramatic new scenes for Celebritarian needs".

"this is a new religion to me"

"I think Celebritarianism is best defined by whoever is interested in it.
That doesnít mean that it has no universal meaning.
It just means that people who donít understand what it is
arenít going to understand it if theyíre explained it,
although I donít think thereís any wrong way to understand it, either.
Itís a little complex in that it could never be a religion of sorts that had any sort of organization because it is much like DaDa and surrealism.
It doesnít even believe in the world it exists in, so therefore it itself cannot exist, unless it acknowledges that it is something that is too abstract to define.
Then it becomes a complete mindfuck where you become lost inside yourself.

S.D.
10-07-2009, 02:50 AM
Marilyn Manson - The Long Hard Road Out Of Hell
"The secret to being a rock star is knowing how to behave like one"

[paraphrased, and also mirrored in Velvet Goldmine, in dialogue from Jerry Divine]

[god]speed
10-09-2009, 07:10 AM
Word Mark CELEBRITARIANS
Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 035. US 100 101 102. G & S: Association services, namely, promoting the interests of volunteer ministers who focus on assisting the individual, the family, groups and mankind
Standard Characters Claimed
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Serial Number 78681660
Filing Date July 29, 2005
Current Filing Basis 1B
Original Filing Basis 1B
Published for Opposition May 16, 2006
Owner (APPLICANT) Warner, Brian Hugh INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 150 South Rodeo Dr., Suite 200 Daniel Hayes c/o Davis Shapiro et al Beverly Hills CALIFORNIA 90212
Attorney of Record Deborah L. Benson
Type of Mark SERVICE MARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD
Abandonment Date February 9, 2007


Word Mark CELEBRITARIANS
Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 014. US 002 027 028 050. G & S: Jewelry, namely, pins, pendants, badges, necklaces and bracelets
(ABANDONED) IC 025. US 022 039. G & S: Clothing, namely, t-shirts, footwear, socks, tennis shoes, rainwear, jackets, shirts, sweaters, pants, belts, slacks, sweat shirts, sweat pants, jerseys, shorts, jogging suits, hats, caps, scarves, bandanas, gloves, hosiery, neckties, pajamas, robes, night shirts, thermal underwear, headbands and wristbands
Standard Characters Claimed
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Serial Number 78681658
Filing Date July 29, 2005
Current Filing Basis 1B
Original Filing Basis 1B
Published for Opposition April 18, 2006
Owner (APPLICANT) Warner, Brian Hugh INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES DANIEL HAYES C/O DAVIS SHAPIRO ET. AL 150 SOUTH RODEO DR., STE 200 BEVERLY HILLS CALIFORNIA 90212
Attorney of Record Deborah L. Benson
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD
Abandonment Date January 12, 2007


Word Mark CELEBRITARIANS
Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 041. US 100 101 107. G & S: Educational services, namely, conducting courses in philosophy and religion; educational and philosophical services, namely, planning and conducting courses in the fields of grammar, language education and language comprehension, administration and organization; training in management technologies, organizational and planning skills; seminars and courses on organizational know-how; conducting classes, seminars, and lectures in the fields of pastoral counseling, philosophy, ethics and study technology; conducting courses on how to study
Standard Characters Claimed
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Serial Number 78681647
Filing Date July 29, 2005
Current Filing Basis 1B
Original Filing Basis 1B
Published for Opposition May 2, 2006
Owner (APPLICANT) Warner, Brian Hugh INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 150 South Rodeo Dr., Suite 200 Daniel Hayes c/o Davis Shapiro et al Beverly Hills CALIFORNIA 90212
Attorney of Record Deborah L. Benson
Type of Mark SERVICE MARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD
Abandonment Date January 26, 2007


Word Mark CELEBRITARIANS
Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 200. US 200. G & S: Indicating membership in an organization of religious counselors
Standard Characters Claimed
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Serial Number 78681643
Filing Date July 29, 2005
Current Filing Basis 1B
Original Filing Basis 1B
Published for Opposition April 18, 2006
Owner (APPLICANT) Warner, Brian Hugh INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 150 South Rodeo Dr., Suite 200 Daniel Hayes c/o Davis Shapiro et al Beverly Hills CALIFORNIA 90212
Attorney of Record Deborah L. Benson
Type of Mark COLLECTIVE MEMBERSHIP MARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD
Abandonment Date January 12, 2007


Word Mark CELEBRITARIANS
Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: Prerecorded sound recordings, audio tapes, audio cassettes, phonograph records, compact discs, motion picture film, videotapes, video cassettes, videodiscs, DVD's and cinematographic films, all featuring music, news, drama, entertainment and discourse pertaining to religion, philosophy, education and administration; prerecorded video cassettes and DVDs featuring instruction and education in the field of moral philosophy; pre-recorded phonograph records, cassettes and compact discs featuring popular music; electronic devices for non-medical purposes, namely an electronic instrument for measuring the mental state and change of state in humans
Standard Characters Claimed
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Serial Number 78681630
Filing Date July 29, 2005
Current Filing Basis 1B
Original Filing Basis 1B
Published for Opposition July 11, 2006
Owner (APPLICANT) Warner, Brian Hugh INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES Daniel Hayes c/o Davis Shapiro et al 150 South Rodeo Dr., Suite 200 Beverly Hills CALIFORNIA 90212
Attorney of Record Deborah L. Benson
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD
Abandonment Date April 4, 2007


Word Mark CELEBRITARIANS
Goods and Services (ABANDONED) IC 016. US 002 005 022 023 029 037 038 050. G & S: Publications, namely, books, course materials, manuals, bulletins, booklets, newsletters, information sheets, printed charts, reference guides, brochures and pamphlets, magazines and information letters, all pertaining to ethics, religion, counseling, philosophy, administration and education, technology; books and course materials pertaining to grammar, language education and language comprehension; books, booklets, printed instructional materials and newsletters pertaining to a non-religious personal moral code; books, tests and related explanatory and scoring materials for measurement of personality, intelligence and aptitude levels of individuals; books and newsletters featuring instruction, education and articles in the field of moral philosophy; printed matter, namely, stationery, posters, stickers, bumper stickers, poster books, postcards, decals, calendars and trading cards
Standard Characters Claimed
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Serial Number 78681627
Filing Date July 29, 2005
Current Filing Basis 1B
Original Filing Basis 1B
Published for Opposition May 2, 2006
Owner (APPLICANT) Warner, Brian Hugh INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 150 South Rodeo Dr., Suite 200 Daniel Hayes c/o Davis Shapiro et al Beverly Hills CALIFORNIA 90212
Attorney of Record Deborah L. Benson
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD
Abandonment Date January 26, 2007


http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regs ... y=78681660 (http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=78681660)

S.D.
10-09-2009, 10:16 AM
This is excellent work, once again. I remember revealing these details at The Heirophant, and to little avail, as they were ignored, despite being official US patents. There are some titles in there that intrigue me:-

o Volunteer Ministers
o Pastoral Counseling
o Religious Counselors (also contradicted by the latter phrase "non-religious personal moral code")

And: "an electronic instrument for measuring the mental state and change of state in humans"

What instrument could that be? Perhaps something esoteric like a television, or more likely, a website...