PDA

View Full Version : Peter Lorre



S.D.
07-16-2009, 06:02 AM
I'm not certain how many of you know this man, but Peter Lorre was an actor famed for his onscreen physicality, bulging eyes and thick European accent. He has featured in Marilyn Manson's work by default on a number of occasions. Lorre was the star of M, the Fritz Lang film which was referenced during the Celebritarian Corporation era of the official website (information relating to this can be read here (http://www.nachtkabarett.com/CelebritarianCorporation/LogoEmblem)). Obviously as central protagonist of M, Manson identifies with his characterisation.

Also interesting, Lorre was the star of the 1943 film The Cross of Lorraine (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0035769/), about French soldiers captured by the Nazis during World War Two.


http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp112/providermodule/Analysis/cross.jpg
Peter Lorre as Berger in The Cross of Lorraine


Also, he played a role in Casablanca the year before, in which The Cross of Lorraine is used to symbolise the Free French (which might interest anyone who is aware of my fondness for alliteration in relation to Manson subject matter). This is interesting again, in that Casablanca features Nazis, and the Celebritarian Corporation seizure text was based on the Justice Jackson speech from the Nuremberg trials. There is duality in this once more as Nuremberg was the scene of the Nazi rallies, which people associate with their dominance, but was eventually the scene of their "Downfall".

I wasn't really sure where to submit this, which is why it is under this title, but I thought the topic might be of some interest. Feel free to comment.

The Empress
12-20-2009, 11:36 AM
I've onlyjust found this. Really interesting.
I've always been fascinated by the concept of Lucifer and the Merovingians etc
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=u0usNNDsQsI#t=81
My next question is...
I wonder what MM is saying by using this image?
What does anyone else think?


http://www.picknettprince.com/books/secrethistoryoflucifer/lucifer.htm

Diamonds&Pollen
02-24-2010, 05:41 PM
Lets not forget that peter Lorre starred as Dr. Gogol in Mad Love. The mad Love heart, being tattooed on Manson's right wrist.

S.D.
02-26-2010, 07:39 AM
Welcome to the forum Diamonds&Pollen, and thank you for the thread resurrection, it reminded me of a few observations I'd entirely forgotten about. I neglected to mention the Mad Love image because I expected most of the members here to be aware of it as mentioned in The Nachtkaberett section on EAT ME, DRINK ME, but there's also a lot of visual and thematic comparisons the article doesn't go into detail about.
It's always worth revisiting past influences on Manson's work, because watching Mad Love again, it seems that perhaps the film's inspiration reaches further than just one record, or incidental imagery. I suppose this would have made a nice streaming addition to the Analysis section on the front-end of the site here, but there's plenty ready to go in there, so I'll enjoy sharing these things in a forum topic.

Rather than simply an aesthetic choice, Mad Love actually has a good deal of narrative relating to EAT ME, DRINK ME, or at least ideas and recurring themes. Lorre is the mad "Herr Doktor" yes, and in his "medical" position he performs the graft of new hands onto famed pianist Stephen Orlac after Orlac loses his own in a train accident. He is given the hands of recently executed (by decapitation) murderer Rollo The Knifethrower (who was also present on the same train), following which the hands continue the murderous impulses of their former owner, or do they...?

The irony of the story is that Gogol psychologically manipulates Orlac into believing he is a lunatic in order to dispose of him. Gogol is obsessed with Orlac's wife Yvonne (he keeps a waxwork of her, wishing it will come to life), and although unable to express himself properly, claims that he loves her.
Gogol proceeds to frame Stephen for the death of his own father (carrying out the crime himself), who bullies Stephen about his career choices. In a state of emotional distress, Stephen is certain he is responsible, even though he is unable to remember doing so. He believes the hands have free will due to his new-found accuracy with knives, and a meeting with a resurrected Rollo, who claims Gogol has built him bionic hands and also replaced his head, as demonstrated below:-



http://providermodule.com/Administrators/S.D./Headless.jpg

http://providermodule.com/Administrators/S.D./MadLoveRollo.jpg



Whilst contentious (or suitably mysterious, whichever you prefer) the film remains ambiguous as to whether something truly supernatural has occurred to cause Stephen's knife throwing talent, but it is later revealed that Rollo remained dead, and in an attempt to authenticate his manipulation of Stephen, "Rollo" was in fact Gogol impersonating the dead man. The apparatus surrounding his head and hands was faked, and in his delusional state, Stephen believed the trick.
I'd advise watching the film itself to best understand the scope of psychology involved, but if you haven't already, I will not spoil anything by saying that the final scenes perfectly echo the notion of a "Doublecross", in a reversal of the doublecross Gogol perpetuates on Stephen.

Though to refer back, I am sure that with headless men, a psychopath coveting a figurine, murder and obsession running rife through the narrative, it is easy to see how Manson integrated it into EAT ME, DRINK ME, and perhaps considering what we know of their themes; (Slutgarden, Spade and I Want To Kill You Like They Do In The Movies) The Golden Age Of Grotesque and The High End Of Low also.
As Gogol repeats in a fit towards the close of the film; "each man kills the thing he loves" - and of course, in commiting murder, his heart guided the hand, as it does in the same closing scenes where he finally snaps and realises that the only way he can quell his obsession for Yvonne is to kill her, which he tries to do by strangulation - "I'll kill you if I can't have you".
Anyway, that's enough mountainous text from me, here are some of the visuals that I think were most deliberately proliferated by Manson, some not even restricted to EAT ME, DRINK ME...



http://providermodule.com/Administrators/S.D./Love%20Window.jpg

http://www.providermodule.com/forum/../discography/images/disc_mainth_emdm.jpg



Above, over the opening titles of Mad Love, the ghostly form of Gogol is seen "materialising" before a window, notably one that doesn't look entirely disimilar to that which Manson stands in front of on the cover of EAT ME, DRINK ME. Coupled with the "Count Orlock"-esque visage that Gogol displays throughout (on several occasions it is clear that Murnau's ghoul is being mimicked deliberately, especially in a scene where Gogol starts to break down and visualise himself in a vampiric pose in the mirror), one could relate back to Nosferatu and a similar image:-



http://providermodule.com/Administrators/S.D./Nosferatu.jpg



I digress.

In some of Mad Love's earliest scenes, perhaps the most potent, exciting, and shocking parallel I noticed was the coat handler in the 'Theatre Of Horrors' where Yvonne performs as actress. The handler is dressed as a male, though apparently with a female voice, and has no head. Once again, 'The Headless' (like Rollo, those which hang upside down to drain), androgyny, and in this instance, an image almost directly replicated for the theatrical Phantasmagoria poster:-



http://providermodule.com/Administrators/S.D./Visions.jpg



Mad Love is camp in places, but horrific also, the psychological terror Manson stated as being the basis for Horripilation is what stands out most, as opposed to any gore or slasher type gimmicks.
During his own psycholosis-induced breakdown, Gogol enters his surgery to commence work on a little girl, during which he suffers an attack, his operating gloves and anguish are shown thusly, compared with promotional imagery from The High End Of Low:-



http://providermodule.com/Administrators/S.D./Gloves.jpg


It's difficult to tell due to the Black & White film, but the shade of the glove Gogol wears could possibly be red, but it's unlikely for surgical purposes.





Also observe promotional photography from Mad Love, and Manson the knife wielder ("I want to throw knives at your vagina"):-



http://providermodule.com/Administrators/S.D./Shock.jpg


Other aesthetics from Mad Love appear across the board in the last three albums worth of material Manson has created. Gogol's medical procedures include "Ultra Violet" treatment, all spirals and hands...



http://providermodule.com/Administrators/S.D./UltraViolet.jpg


"Go, Go, Go, Doppelgängers" - Yvonne meets her wax effigy in Gogol's sanctum:-


http://providermodule.com/Administrators/S.D./Waxwork.jpg


So much more skin to break / "The Valley Of The Dolls/You are plastic, so are your brains":-


http://providermodule.com/Administrators/S.D./Dolls.jpg
Manson destroys his "self" in The Dope Show, and Yvonne shatters her own waxwork as it falls from an upper-storey window in Gogol's abode.


Interestingly, when the wax figure is discovered by an exhonerated Stephen, the press and police who rush to save Yvonne from Gogol, the reporter exclaims "Oh, it's wax, and I thought I had a front page murder" - a rather disturbing if not accurate commentary on how the media gravitate towards tragedy with no concern for human life.

The end: "If the world had one neck" - Gogol, in a final fit of desperation, uses Yvonne's hair as a rope to strangle her when he faces capture by the authorities and realises she will never concede to his affections. The relationship between death, obsession, sexual frustration (it is made subtly apparent that Gogol is impotent throughout the film) and power reaches its conclusion...


http://providermodule.com/Administrators/S.D./Hair.jpg



"EACH MAN KILLS THE THING HE LOVES"


I'll let anyone who is interested pursue their own viewings and musings, but I'd like to close by adding that Mad Love is not the only Peter Lorre film to cover the theme of hands that commit murderous acts of their own accord. In 1946 he starred in The Beast With Five Fingers, which relating to the posters for M and (as pictured also) a separate Mad Love poster, also evokes Celebritarian website imagery, among others. Stigmata, crucifixion, guidance of the heart and "five middle fingers on a motherfucking hand/I wasn't born with enough middle fingers" all inclusive.


http://providermodule.com/Administrators/S.D./Beast.jpg



http://providermodule.com/Administrators/S.D./BeastPoster.jpg
Poster courtesy of andreaking.com



http://providermodule.com/Administrators/S.D./Stigmata.jpg


I think that's about it for now, I hope everyone enjoys this rundown of information relative to Lorre. There are a few more notes I wanted to add, but they'd disrupt the structure of this addition, so perhaps another time.

[god]speed
02-26-2010, 08:20 AM
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/7140/comam.jpg
Coma Black Live 2009 ||||| ||||| ||||| ||||| ||||| ||||| ||||| ||||| Fritz Lang's M

In Fritz Lang's M, Peter Lorre plays Hans Beckert, a serial killer and pedophile who kidnaps children, thus raping them of their innocence. Beckert sells balloons to small children before murdering them, and in the scene following the purchase of the balloon, We see a balloon ensnared in the telephone lines, floating away much in the same manner Manson does in Coma Black, a song that is quite literally about someone taking the angel away, leaving them low and broken much in the same manner that Beckert leaves his victims.

Shangri-LIE
02-27-2010, 05:17 PM
"I want to kill you like they do in the movies"

"I haven't even taken off my gloves."

The M marked on the glove was actually, originally, marked on his coat by an underground criminal who was tailing him in order to keep the police from interfering with their underground crime ring, so that they could resume "business"..."not pleasure". To reference something S.D. quoted - "EACH MAN KILLS THE THING HE LOVES" -

"Everytime I kill you, I'm really just killing myself." - "Hope that we die, holding hands."

Obsequey (The Death of Art) for instance. With each record, most anyway, it has succeeded either a break up or a divorce. Each record after that has been revolved around not wanting to be an artist anymore. Not knowing what Marilyn Manson was anymore. Art has been his only true love. When one world ends, something else begins, but with a leitmotif. With M he whistles "In the Hall of the Mountain King" to alarm the audience that he is skulking in the shadows. Just like when Manson begins his shows. Behind a veil, whispering, and waiting for the silence before the curtain drops and he comes out charging with a "Knife".



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ab/M_poster.jpg/200px-M_poster.jpg


This photograph is just for juxtaposition purposes with the above photo. Also in this photograph you see Marilyn Manson split in half. Torn between him and his "twin". Though below you see a hand where his heart is, bleeding, and bandaged.


http://tinypic.com/k1509f.jpg

Other lyrical references; "The hole is where the heart is." - "I will blow your heart to peices"

S.D.
02-27-2010, 06:36 PM
Shangri-LIE, that was an excellent post, with incredible insight, thank you. The part I liked most was the duality of Marilyn Manson raised again, because one of the Mad Love pieces I didn't have a context for in my last addition was of Gogol as spectator in the theatre:-


http://providermodule.com/Administrators/S.D./TwoFaces.jpg


He watches Yvonne from his own private box, but shrouded entirely in darkness down the one side of his face. I don't think it's happenstance either, he is lit this way viewing her performance, perhaps splitting his voyeurism in two, a balance between affection and malevolence; he "loves" her but is possessive/murderous also. There are several points in the latter half of the film (when Gogol starts to go mad) where he is seen as almost having two personalities (especially in the mirror). As "Doctor", he seems professional and timid, though as Gogol he is abrasive and confident. His psychosis sets in as the plot thickens, and the lines start to blur between the two...

Something else also; does anyone think the mysterious Lady in white from the art section of Manson's EAT ME, DRINK ME website was based on Mad Love's Yvonne?:-


http://providermodule.com/Administrators/S.D./Dresses.jpg


The long tresses of dark hair and the "hand" coupled with the fact that Gogol tries to strangle Yvonne with her own hair make this notion more plausible.

Shangri-LIE
02-28-2010, 04:04 PM
"If the world had one neck, my hands would be the where and I would choke all of you down."

http://providermodule.com/Administrators/S.D./Dresses.jpg

Good observation S.D.


Gogol - "I have conquered science. Why cant I conquer love?"

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f4/Madloveposter.jpg/200px-Madloveposter.jpg

"Love never dies a natural death. It dies because we don't know how to replenish it's source. It dies of blindness and errors and betrayals. It dies of illness and wounds; it dies of weariness, of witherings, of tarnishings"

Gogol - "It seems that wax can bleed"

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTc3MjQzOTM0NF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNDkzMjUxMQ@@._ V1._SX75_SY140_.jpg

Even though I don't have a picture for it, I believe that Manson imitated the idea of creating an artificial effigie with the "Evan Bot". Also, in the "Running to the Edge of the World" where Manson stares into mirror before "killing" the girl, is "much like Dr.Gogol especially in a scene where Gogol starts to break down and visualise himself in a vampiric pose in the mirror".

Manson said that "The High End of Low" was more of a film. Though it was a record, I am inclined to deduce that "Mad Love" is his own rendition of it.

S.D.
02-28-2010, 06:44 PM
Once again Shangri-LIE, that was some excellent hypothesis, this topic is developing much more rapidly than I could have predicted in the last few days.
I really like it when the deranged Gogol believes the waxwork of Yvonne is bleeding, especially in a film where for all of its horror, the gore is absent, it's back to the Horripilation comparison, the most alarming parts of the picture are psychological. The mirror as well, I had forgotten about the photograph Manson uploaded to his MySpace account before the Running To The Edge Of The World video was released, but looking at it now, it's very similar:-


http://providermodule.com/Administrators/S.D./Mirrors.jpg


Obviously the "murder" in the Running video is entirely a depiction of "Each man kills the thing he loves".

Alos, Gogol goes truly mad when he sees himself reflected back: - "I see my horror, mirrored in your sundown of a blank stare" - refer that to M as mentioned earlier and in other locations:-


http://providermodule.com/Administrators/S.D./MMirror.jpg


I believe (and please correct me if wrong) it was -< me >- that spotted the above image being appropriated in the Putting Holes In Happiness video, Manson bearing the same mark on his back. Even that reminds me of the suggestion that EAT ME, DRINK ME was a series of dialogues between Manson and himself, no one else, perhaps adding weight to the lyric "I can't turn my back on you, when you are walking away". Maybe he was talking to himself?
Also, going back to the mirror idea, I expect it's something that can be expanded until we're blue in the face, and Manson in the mirror has been an aesthetic used time and time again, so it's not original to this topic, but I did think it acceptable to use this quotation in context, it's one of my favourites:-


"I am you, and when you can admit that, you will be free. I am just a mirror" - Charles Manson


And still the Lorre correlations emerge, I rather liked the pairing of this image and the caption below:-


http://providermodule.com/Administrators/S.D./CrossLorraine2.jpg

'I SELL MY SHADOW TO THOSE WHO ARE STANDING IN IT"

Shangri-LIE
02-28-2010, 07:31 PM
Indeed, S.D.,this thread is beginning to unfurl into a truly intriguing exploration into the coorelations, and symbolism of the double cross.

http://www.thevesselofgod.com/fibonnaccicross2.jpg

"the fingerprint of God."

"The first two words, Hosani and Ianosh, were found by connecting the letters at the six points at the ends of the crossed bars by means of an irregular (albeit symmetrical) zig-zagging line. The first line starts at the top and ends at the bottom. The second line mirrors the first and originates instead at the bottom. A third word can be found by connecting just the five letters on the cross’ lower section. The line that co-joins them forms a kind of irregular (yet again very symmetrical) "M" shape."

"As above, so below".

We must secure the shadow....

http://photos.shebloggedbynight.com/images/A_3/5/2/2/12253/0_peter_lorre_500_d247e.jpghttp://providermodule.com/Administrators/S.D./Nosferatu.jpg

Notice the window frame in the shape of The Cross of Lorraine. Even though this has been posted before, for context, use a photo that has already been used in here and conjoin them.

Barbarella
03-01-2010, 02:39 AM
To be completely honest I rarely read threads in this section of the forum but I happened upon this.

S.D. you've done a marvellous job with this one, well thought out, insightful and most of all fascinating to read. Plus the other contributions deserve praise too.

Nice work fellas.

Shangri-LIE
03-01-2010, 03:45 AM
To be completely honest I rarely read threads in this section of the forum but I happened upon this.

S.D. you've done a marvellous job with this one, well thought out, insightful and most of all fascinating to read. Plus the other contributions deserve praise too.

Nice work fellas.

Why, thank you, stella. :P

more to come

[god]speed
03-03-2010, 01:51 AM
Indeed, S.D.,this thread is beginning to unfurl into a truly intriguing exploration into the coorelations, and symbolism of the double cross.

http://www.thevesselofgod.com/fibonnaccicross2.jpg

"the fingerprint of God."

"The first two words, Hosani and Ianosh, were found by connecting the letters at the six points at the ends of the crossed bars by means of an irregular (albeit symmetrical) zig-zagging line. The first line starts at the top and ends at the bottom. The second line mirrors the first and originates instead at the bottom. A third word can be found by connecting just the five letters on the cross’ lower section. The line that co-joins them forms a kind of irregular (yet again very symmetrical) "M" shape."

"As above, so below".

We must secure the shadow....



Isn't that basically derived from here Double Cross Symbology (http://www.nachtkabarett.com/CelebritarianCorporation/DoubleCross)

The Nachtkabarett:
http://www.nachtkabarett.com/ihvh/img/NKAlchemicalCrossofLorraineRevealed.jpg

The alchemical Cross of Lorraine illustrating alternately its principle of "As Above, So Below" Right, the secret names of the cross revealed; displaying HOSANI, IANOSH, & ASION
By taking the first letter at the end of each six points of the cross in a symmetrical zigzag pattern (further adding to the inherent equilibrium present in the cross), we can spell the word H-O-S-A-N-I, which is the Latin equivalent of the Hebrew word 'Hosanna', or "Praise be to", a phrase used in Catholic mass. The second hidden word mirrors the first, originating at the bottom, and working up, as the direct balance to the first word. By traversing in this manner, we spell the word I-A-N-O-S-H, the Latin equivalent of "Enoch". Enoch is believed to have taught writing to mankind, just as Hermes had.

As by no means of coincidence, a third word is spelt out by setting our point of origin at the 'A' in 'Arena', of the lower bar. Once again, following the zigzag principle, another word of significant importance is created. It should be mentioned that this traversed path creates an inherent M, which gives it all the more significance to Marilyn Manson. This third and final word created is A-S-I-O-N.

-<me>-
03-04-2010, 08:36 AM
http://www.thevesselofgod.com/fibonnaccicross2.jpg

"the fingerprint of God."

"The first two words, Hosani and Ianosh, were found by connecting the letters at the six points at the ends of the crossed bars by means of an irregular (albeit symmetrical) zig-zagging line. The first line starts at the top and ends at the bottom. The second line mirrors the first and originates instead at the bottom. A third word can be found by connecting just the five letters on the cross’ lower section. The line that co-joins them forms a kind of irregular (yet again very symmetrical) "M" shape."



I also enjoy the analyses of Boyd Rice pertainting to The Cross of Lorraine, for those not familiar with his work or his website The Vessel of God (http://www.thevesselofgod.com/home.html), the above quote can be found "here (http://www.thevesselofgod.com/crosslorraine2.html)" and further writings "here (http://www.thevesselofgod.com/crosslorraine.html)".

S.D.
03-04-2010, 10:29 AM
speed;61285']Isn't that basically derived from here Double Cross Symbology (http://www.nachtkabarett.com/CelebritarianCorporation/DoubleCross)

The post above this would rather imply that the information in the link you've supplied is derivative, the very fact that references to theological or occult symbolism appear in Manson's work at all is essentially derivative, that's sort of the point. I don't think Shangri-LIE was claiming what he wrote to be his own work or thoughts, otherwise his post probably wouldn't have been in a set of quotation marks, neither would the image he used have been directly linked from The Vessel Of God!

It's grand some of these ideas are being raised from such a seemingly isolated original subject matter, there is no correct time or place for extra reading and learning. It seems The Cross Of Lorraine as theorised by Boyd Rice is essentially "Marilyn Manson" again, he notes the origin of the symbol as being a composite of 'god' and 'Lord', which if taken in a Bibical sense, would connotate the Creator and The Devil in equal part. You could even surmise this from the image itself, if it illustrates the duality between the Sun and the Moon, then I'd associate that with the Morning Star, (and in turn, Antichrist Superstar) which has always been a theological grey area, it could refer to Jesus or Lucifer (The Light Bringer). Was Lucifer justified in questioning the word of god? Was he making "light shine in the darkness" by being disobedient? Is a Morning Star the Sun breaking dawn or the Moon ending night? Perhaps "Paradise isn't lost it was hiding all along" suggests to the listener that questioning, being "Lucifer" and not accepting 'The Word', or any word for that matter is the way to locate Paradise - "We are our own wicked gods".
Referring back also, the identification of John 1:5 as source for the I Have To Look Up Just To See Hell quote is brilliant, but another, less numerically suitable Bible passage seems equally apt:-


"So we regard the words of the Prophets as confirmed beyond all doubt.
You're doing well by paying attention to their words.
Continue to pay attention as you would to a light that shines in a dark place
as you wait for day to come and the Morning Star to rise in your hearts."


This is from Peter (ha!), and I love it, because it's so self-righteously full of shit. The passage seems to imply the benefit of listening and learning, but in closing the parable, it states the following:-


"No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation.
No prophecy ever originated from humans.
Instead, it was given by the Holy Spirit as humans spoke under
god's direction."


So basically, you have to listen to the Prophets in order to learn "Knowledge, self-control and endurance", but you can't interpret what they say or place your own value on it because it means you are wrong. That's not learning, it's brainwashing... Not that I remotely need illustrate the trend of inconsistency or brainwashing in The Bible, it's practically in the synopsis, but still, nice passages to relate to this subject and to study of Manson's work overall.
I think the Doublecross again, even in context of Peter Lorre, but easily applied to the notes above, becomes a symbol for uncertainty, or at least for knowing that uncertainty exists. If "As Above, So Below" is adhered to, then surely both Sun and Moon, High and Low etc. each have their benefits and defecits. A "new beginning" may rise behind the Sun, but it can't be reached if the "Moon comes again", everything is cyclical and the snake will always eat its tail, "THE MOON HAS NOW ECLIPSED THE SUN" - Et Cetera.