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S.D.
07-22-2009, 10:00 AM
I was thinking over the last few days, this song is one of those that people have been taking at face value. I believe a number of months ago I first noted the relation that the phrase has to Leni Riefenstahl, which was accepted and since proliferated by numerous parties, which is good, because I know Manson probably had this in mind, especially as Riefenstahl was mentioned by him in a recent interview, perhaps deliberately confirming this link.

However, it might be interesting to take a look at the notion of the symbol itself, and the wider connotations it may contain. Manson's phrase "This is where it starts, this is where it will end" seems appropriate, given that the swastika is a recurring image, the points of its four edges moving towards the end of the ensuing section, which in relation to the aforementioned phrase and its reliance on the alchemical emblem of the snake eating (Devouring...?) its tail, puts the two images closer together:-


http://providermodule.com/Administrators/S.D./snakeswastika.jpg


Consider even that the two "S" sections of the Swastika could in turn be snakes. This correlates with some early representations of the symbol (of which there are multitudes in many different civilisations), represented in the following image:-


http://providermodule.com/Administrators/S.D./Suntejas.jpg


This is taken from a ritual drinking cup engraved by ancient Mississipian tribes, thought to be in relation to the "Great Sun" chief. It may be incidental, rather than deliberate, but the lyrical link is nice to note. More can be read here (http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/tejas/fundamentals/miss.html) should it be of any interest.

Another aesthetic of The High End of Low is the use of a film reel as the disc for the album, referencing its many celluloid tendencies throughout. However, looking closer, it is possible that this is also a design criteria here, as the cyclical nature (entertainment, progress) also mimics that of the Swastika:-


http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp112/providermodule/Analysis/swastikareel.jpg

Procrastinator
07-22-2009, 11:32 AM
Manson's phrase "This is where it starts, this is where it will end"

Might be a pariphrasis of the maxim "Omnia ex uno, omnia ad unum". It means "Everything begins in one, everything ends in one" in Latin. I forgot who its author was, but it impressed me when I read it years before the release of Eat Me, Drink Me and even had it written on the back of my door...

Nevermind, this just popped into my mind while reading your post, S.D. and thought I'd throw it in. May one of my usually ridiculous associations make sense, if anyone can be arsed to do research...

Anima XI
07-23-2009, 08:04 PM
S.D. I was reading about the belief system called Theosophy, and it occurred to me that symbol for it has some parallels with Manson's symbolism.

http://www.singaporelodge.org/images/TS-Seal-TSA-small.gif

Unfortunately I don't know much about Theosophy, so I can't tell you anything, but I thought this might be a bit relevant =) I'll read up on it a bit and see if I find anything interesting.

Edit: Oh just found an interesting link about the symbol

http://ts-adyar.org/emblem.html

It mentions things about the Tau Cross, the duality found in the interlacing Star of David, the Swastika, and the Serpent.

Edit2: Interestingly enough, the Nachtkabarett mentions it in the Smashing Pumpkins section.

http://www.nachtkabarett.com/SmashingPumpkins/Machina/BackstagePass

S.D.
07-24-2009, 01:44 AM
What a fantastic discovery, thank you for the information on the symbol. I've encountered the name of this philosophy before, but never really investigated further, so to read into it more is fascinating. From the information provided there, I have no doubt that Theosophy is something Marilyn Manson is aware of, given that it apparently shares some of its key components with alchemical methodology. I'm also interested in the idea of it recognising the common element of truth in all faiths, which reminds me of the lyrics "I never really hated one true God, but the God of the people I hated". Theosophy seems to be a teaching that bypasses the worship of falsehood (burn all wooden Gods?) and seeks truth (not death, but destruction, the deconstruction of lies).

The serpent relating to Egyptian Mythology is another curious element, perhaps one that -< me >- would be able to reflect on, as I know it is a fond subject for her.

Great contribution, thank you again.

And Procrastinator, do you have any more information on that phrase? Having a brief search online seems to relate it to Goethe...

Procrastinator
07-25-2009, 11:48 AM
^ Might be Goethe, yes. All I recall is reading this maxim somewhere in the explanatory notes of a book I can't even remember the title of, but it sure wasn't Goethe. Sorry...

Anima XI
07-25-2009, 09:56 PM
I like the relation you made between my findings, what you know about Theosophy now, and MM's lyrics in your last post S.D. =) I'm glad I stumbled upon that interesting looking emblem.

Edit: Oh and here's some random links that may be relevant to this topic --

http://rexcurry.net/book1a1contents-swastika.html

http://rexcurry.net/theosophy-madame-blavatsky-theosophical-society.html

S.D.
07-28-2009, 04:17 AM
This was originally in 'Musical Parallels', but as I thought more on it, this topic seemed a better location for a response.


My mom thinks Heart Shaped Glasses sounds a lot like China Girl by David Bowie and Iggy Pop. I was listening to it today and now I hear it.

I would say that the influence of the song goes deeper than even that. Manson was quoted as saying that WOW was partly inspired musically by Iggy Pop's The Idiot. That album originally featured China Girl, and it was produced by Bowie anyway. The musical comparison with Heart-Shaped glasses is sound, but lyrically I'd also say the song had some part to play inspiring Pretty As A Swastika, most notably due to the lines "I stumble into town just like a sacred cow, visions of Swastikas in my head, plans for everyone". I think this was originally a similar statement to the one Manson has made concerning symbolism and proliferation. He didn't invent the Swastika, and neither was it always a symbol of fascism. Also, the Hindu faith has the sacred cow, which with Bowie taking its guise, may well have had positive swastikas in its eyes, and positive "plans for everyone".

Also, what is interesting in relation to this lyric is that the term "Sacred Cow" correlates exactly with the term "Cash Cow". This in terms relates the replacement of the Swastika with a Dollar symbol.

I wonder if Manson had that in mind at all, he has made the cow a tangible part of his work before, not only in mentioning that he would "hang all you cattle with your VELVET ROPE" [Better of Two Evils], but also in the concealed lyrics for Obsequy (The Death of Art) - "I have grown bored with their best milk" [paraphrased], which was referenced in a Kerrang! interview in 2004 as being relative to a page from Manson's notebook, which read something like "To taste best milk, we must suck the best tits". Again, this isn't set in stone, but the process of protecting/draining the Sacred/Cash cow is relative to comparing a Swastika and a Dollar sign, and certainly the "sacreligious" manner in which some seek to do so.

-<me>-
07-28-2009, 05:49 AM
S.D. I was reading about the belief system called Theosophy, and it occurred to me that symbol for it has some parallels with Manson's symbolism.

http://www.singaporelodge.org/images/TS-Seal-TSA-small.gif



THEOsophy is a belief system as taught by Madame H. P. Blavatsky, author of The Secret Doctrine. Manson states at 4.30 in the youtube video below that The Secret Doctrine was very inspirational in regards to the writing of Holy Wood, which I encourage anyone that is interested in deeper alchemy/theosophy to read. however being two volumes and over 1500 pages in length, its not for the faint of heart.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heiBevJYO1U


For example, Blavatsky writes of the Sun and the Moon, Egypt, the swastika, the hydra (seven headed serpent "It is the seven-headed Draco, each of whose heads is a star of the Lesser Bear" "Now you'll see your star"), Revelations and St. John (the Evangelist), the number 7 and 7 as 1 in this brief passage :-


It was the dual symbol of Heaven and Earth, of Sun and Moon, and was made sacred, in consequence of its amphibious nature, to Osiris and Isis. According to Eusebius, the Egyptians represented the sun in a ship as its pilot, this ship being carried along by a crocodile "to show the motion of the Sun in the moyst (Space)", (Prepar. Evang., 1, 3, c. 3). The crocodile was moreover, the symbol of Egypt herself -- the lower, as being the more swampy of the two countries. The Alchemists claim another interpretation. They say that the symbol of the sun in the ship on the Ether of Space meant that the hermetic matter is the principle, or basis, of gold, or again the philosophical sun; the water, within which the crocodile is swimming, is that water or matter made liquid; the ship herself, finally, representing the vessel of nature, in which the sun, or the sulphuric, igneous principle, acts as a pilot: because it is the sun which conducts the work by his action upon the moist or mercury.

The above is only for the Alchemists.

The Serpent became the type and symbol of evil, and of the Devil, only during the middle ages. The early Christians -- besides the Ophite Gnostics -- had their dual Logos: the Good and the Bad Serpent, the Agathodaemon and the Kakodaemon. This is demonstrated by the writings of Marcus, Valentinus, and many others, and especially in Pistis Sophia -- certainly a document of the earliest centuries of Christianity. On the marble sarcophagus of a tomb, discovered in 1852 near the Porta Pia, one sees the scene of the adoration of the Magi, "or else," remarks the late C. W. King in "The Gnostics," "the prototype of that scene, the 'Birth of the New Sun.'" The mosaic floor exhibited a curious design which might have represented either (a) Isis suckling the babe Harpocrates, or (b) the Madonna nursing the infant Jesus. In the smaller sarcophagi that surrounded the larger one, eleven leaden plates rolled like scrolls were found, three of which have been deciphered. The contents of these ought to be regarded as final proof of a much-vexed question, for they show that either the early Christians, up to the VIth Century, were bond fide pagans, or that dogmatic Christianity was borrowed wholesale, and passed in full into the Christian Church -- Sun, Tree, Serpent, Crocodile and all.

"On the first is seen Anubis . . . holding out a scroll; at his feet are two female busts; below all are two serpents entwined . . . a corpse swathed up like a mummy. In the second scroll . . . is Anubis, holding out a cross, the "Sign of Life." Under his feet lies the corpse encircled in the numerous folds of a huge serpent, the Agathodaemon, guardian of the deceased. . . . . In the third scroll, Anubis bears on his arm . . . . . the outline of . . a complete Latin cross . . . At the god's foot is a rhomboid, the Egyptian 'Egg of the World,' towards which crawls a serpent coiled into a circle . . . . Under the busts is the letter [[omega]] repeated seven times in a line, reminding one of the 'names' . . . Very remarkable also is the line of characters, apparently Palmyrene, upon the legs of the first Anubis. As for the figure of the serpent, supposing these talismans to emanate not from the Isiac but the newer Ophite creed, it may well stand for that "True and perfect Serpent," who leads forth the souls of all that put their trust in him out of the Egypt of the body, and through the Red Sea of Death into the Land of Promise, saving them on their way from the Serpents of the Wilderness, that is, from the Rulers of the Stars." (King's "Gnostics," p. 366.)
And this "True and Perfect Serpent" is the seven-lettered God who is now credited with being Jehovah, and Jesus One with him. To this Seven-vowelled god the candidate for initiation is sent by Christos, in the Pistis Sophia, a work earlier than St. John's Revelation, and evidently of the same school. "The (Serpent of the) Seven Thunders uttered these seven vowels," but "Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not," says Revelation. "Do ye seek after these mysteries?" inquiries Jesus in Pistis Sophia. "No mystery is more excellent than they (the seven vowels): for they shall bring your souls unto the Light of Lights" -- i.e., true Wisdom. "Nothing, therefore, is more excellent than the mysteries which ye seek after, saving only the mystery of the Seven Vowels and their FORTY AND NINE Powers, and the numbers thereof."

In India, it was the mystery of the Seven FIRES and their forty-nine fires or aspects, or "the members thereof," just the same.

These seven vowels are represented by the Swastika signs on the crowns of the seven heads of the Serpent of Eternity, in India, among esoteric Buddhists, in Egypt, in Chaldea, etc. etc., and among the Initiates of every other country. It is on the Seven zones of post mortem ascent, in the Hermetic writings, that the "mortal" leaves, on each, one of his "Souls" (or Principles); until arrived on the plane above all zones he remains as the great Formless Serpent of absolute wisdom -- or the Deity itself. The seven-headed serpent has more than one signification in the Arcane teachings. It is the seven-headed Draco, each of whose heads is a star of the Lesser Bear; but it was also, and pre-eminently, the Serpent of Darkness (i.e., inconceivable and incomprehensible) whose seven heads were the seven Logoi, the reflections of the one and first manifested Light -- the universal LOGOS. As has been noted elsewhere, there seems to be a focus on Nazi related imagery for this era, as well as others, and it is noted that Blavatsky was also a notable influence on the Third Reich.

http://www.shoaheducation.com/blavatsky.jpg


Mme. Blavatsky, is best remembered as the founder of Theosophy, a branch of philosophy which marries religious concepts of the New Age, Christianity, Paganism, the Occult and Philosophy. Blavatsky among other endeavors held sťances and meetings often well attended by influential people of her day, including Arthur Conan Doyle, writer of Sherlock Holmes, Westcott and Hort, translators of the Revised Standard Version of the Bible, and others.She also is known for bringing a renewed interest in the Gnostic Gospels and early Writings which were dismissed as fantasy or legend, including "The Shepherd of Hermes" and tales of Jesus as a young child. Her re-translations of the New Testament combined with certain Aryan philosophies culminated in a re-introduction and clarification of " Root Race Theory" which requires the elimination of a prior, 'primitive' or first race in order for the final, superior Race of Aryans descended from a superior race can occur. Blavatsky could probably best be characterized as the "Mother" of the Modern New Age movement.http://www.shoaheducation.com/peoplenazitheo.html

It should also be noted that Blavatsky also speaks of Plato's second god (The Reflecting God), Adam Kadmon, Infinite Space Encompassating (Ain Sof) God is now here/God is nowhere, Crucifixion in Space et cetera.


With regards to the snake/serpent/Wadjet of Egypt, it was largely considered a symbol of protection and was featured upon the crown as protector of pharoh. It is also linked to the sun and Horus, among other things.

ThreeEyedGod
08-06-2009, 10:16 PM
What is known of Manson's Jew heritage...if there is any at all.

S.D.
08-30-2009, 07:02 AM
What is known of Manson's Jew heritage...if there is any at all.

His family, as described in The Long Hard Road Out Of Hell, were the Wanamakers (obviously a precursor of Warner), and originated from Poland.
_______________

I find it odd that the record company were not more lenient with Pretty As A Swastika, in light of a single released almost ten years previous to it, Primal Scream's Swastika Eyes. The song is a commentary on American Military Globalisation, and I think that you'll all agree that the song was very likely an influence on Manson's song. I've supplied videos to demonstrate, one is a studio performance of the song (the beginning of which I think bears resemblance to the start of Pretty As A Swastika, in terms of the bassline), and the video release for the single. In the video, you'll note the characters sporting military helmets and flat caps, similar to those worn by Manson in the We're From America promotional shot, and The Golden Age of Grotesque Helnwein series.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5Q0dYq1G48&NR=1



Swastika Eyes - Studio Performance




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2KROs72tzo



Swastika Eyes - Video

And here are the lyrics to the song:-


Your soul dont burn
You dark the sun you
Rain down fire on everyone
Scabs, police, government thieves
Venal psychic amputees
Parasitic your syphilitic
Parasitic your syphilitic

Swastika eyes
You got
Swastika eyes
You got
Swastika eyes, swastika eyes, swastika eyes

I'll vent my spleen I'll keep my dreams
My flesh my bones my soul I own
My mind's a weapon immune from infection
Blood in my eyes, my vision is clear
Parasitic your syphilitic
Parasitic your syphilitic

Swastika eyes
You got
Swastika eyes
You got
Swastika eyes, swastika eyes, swastika eyes

I see your autosuggestion psychology
Elimination policy
A military industrial
Illusion of democracy

Swastika eyes
You got
Swastika eyes
You got
Swastika eyes, swastika eyes, swastika eyesAlthough I have highlighted, I don't really think I need to make note of how these words are similar to Manson's commentary throughout The High End Of Low, and indeed, other areas of his canon. These lyrics could practically have been written by Manson.

Incidentally, the song is from the album XTRMNTR --- "Exterminating Angel" --- Titles from the album include Pills [A big bottle?], Blood Money [$] and Shoot Speed/Kill Light [The Speed of Pain/"The light shines in the darkness"]. Also, unrelated to the songs, one of Goon Moon's pictures of Jeordie is captioned "Kill Hippies", and Kill All Hippies is the opening track of XTRMNTR.


http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/101/m_2b341c920369fc0ee598e3f592f4d930.jpg


Charles Manson and his Swastika also spring to mind...

Sputnik
08-30-2009, 02:02 PM
*bump*
Interesting... I don't know if this has anything to do with anything or if someone mentioned it...
...but the swastica was supposed to represent the sun (ages ago) nd '...u glitter in the sun, you're as pretty as a swastica...' if that makes any sence...
*feels retarded,leaves*

S.D.
08-30-2009, 02:20 PM
That's not retarded, the Swastika was indeed originally a symbol for the sun, I mentioned it briefly in the first post:-


This is taken from a ritual drinking cup engraved by ancient Mississipian tribes, thought to be in relation to the "Great Sun" chief.But I am aware it has been linked to the sun by other cultures as well. In addition to the "In the sun" reference, there is also "see a new beginning rise behind the sun" in Running To The Edge Of The World. Thank you for the post!

Anima XI
08-30-2009, 11:17 PM
Another interesting tidbit:


The sign was used in the nineteenth and twentieth century cartography to indicate electric power plants.http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/15/151.html

(Lol, look at the number in the link)

http://www.nachtkabarett.com/ihvh/img/nk_logo_shock_symbol_acs_tm.jpg

Interesting coincidence!

http://www.nachtkabarett.com/ihvh/img/nk_theol_arma_dollarbill_design.jpg

sugarbaby
08-31-2009, 10:08 PM
Of course all of this comes together but he could also be meaning that she is a stand out image in his mind,a danger to him because she conjures up all this emotion in him both bad and good and that makes her dangerous,but only for him because beauty is in the eye of the beholder.Just like any sign.It's what you allow it to mean to you.

S.D.
09-04-2009, 04:30 AM
Here are some amusing, even relevant uses of the Swastika in American popular culture prior to the Second World War and Nazi Germany...

"Who'll ride this dying carousel" - Four Rusted Horses
Jantzen Beach Carousel (http://www.columbiariverimages.com/Regions/Places/jantzen_beach_carousel.html)


The article above has a section on "Hector" a horse on the Jantzen Beach Carousel, Portland, Oregon, which is decorated with an array of swastikas.


http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp112/providermodule/Analysis/Hector.jpg


The article states the following:-

"... At the time this horse was carved, the swastika still had the positive symbolism that it has had for over 3,000 years. Long before the Nazi's distorted it, the swastika was used by cultures around the world to symbolize prosperity, power, strength and good luck. It has been found in ancient Greece, especially at Troy, and was widely used in China, Persia, Japan, India, Europe and North and South America.

The word 'swastika' comes from ancient Sanskrit - 'su', meaning 'well', and 'asti', meaning 'being'. Not until the mid-1930s, well after this carousel horse was carved, did the swastika take on a negative connotation. (Until 1933, the American 45th Infantry Division used the swastika on its shoulder patches.) The Nazi part adopted the swastika in 1919 as the symbol of their organization and only with the rise of Hitler's power did the symbol take on a negative meaning. The Allies banned the symbol from Germany in 1945 after Germany's defeat in World War II.

Shortly after the end of the war this design on Hector was removed and forgotten. It wasn't until 1995 during the carousel restoration project that the symbol was rediscovered and restored to its original design. Although the designs on Hector find their inspiration in Native American art, the swastika caused a negative public reaction and the decision was made to remove Hector from the carousel permanently. Ironically, the reason that keeps Hector from riding the magnificent carousel he once called home is also the reason that makes him so speical - he is definitely one of a kind. Some suggest that Hector may one day find a place within the Smithsonian Museum in Washington D.C. ..." [Jantzen Beach SuperStore, 2006]

_______________


"Smash into your face like a plane"



http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp112/providermodule/Analysis/SwastikaPlane.jpg

09-08-2009, 03:00 AM
I'm impressed by people's creativity and imagination, but I think the lyrics were meant to be taken at face-value. That's what this era has been focused on: Manson's humanity and stepping aside from elaborate metaphors for a minute. This is my interpretation of the song...

"When I see you in the sun, you're as pretty as a swastika"

When in clear objective view, the woman he's with is oppressive, harsh, damaging, and he continues to be attracted.

"Take you down, down from the inside"

In true Vampiric fashion, he's a person who hurts others, and by inside he's talking about emotions.

"I want to smash into your face..."

Anger towards the oppressive

"...drown between your legs."

Sexual attraction by 'serving' her

"I'd die for your sins if you don't kill me while I'm trying"

This continues the 'serving' that I was talking about, except he reveals that it's taking a toll on him...

"One of us is a knife, one of us is ripe"

And that's when the transition to homicidal comes in.

S.D.
09-08-2009, 03:20 AM
The way I approach any analysis of culture, is that there is no right or wrong answer. The things I've identified here (I can't speak for others) were not written because I feel they are implicit in the lyrics or intent of the song, but rather because they are noteworthy as literally being "tangential" to the original content. Were we always to take every song lyric or aesthetic choice in art as literal, no one would ever look for anything. Art should never be taken at face value, because how much value can you put on a face? All faces conceal something, and I like to know the truth, even if it is the one I seek out for myself.

So in this case, Marilyn Manson may well have simply intended to convey the lyrics in the manner which you have laid them out, but I was interested in the fact that there were a multitude of ideas and avenues down which the thematic could be taken.

There is always more to learn...

09-08-2009, 03:31 AM
>> So in this case, Marilyn Manson may well have simply intended to convey the lyrics in the manner which you have laid them out, but I was interested in the fact that there were a multitude of ideas and avenues down which the thematic could be taken. <<

Then thing about that though is that you become an artist as well because you are adding creative input to what wasn't there. That's why I like to read great, big, in-depth analysis like these because it's people scrambling for connections and making things fit. I just disagree that's it's what MM intended to present, but it's all good.

S.D.
11-02-2009, 05:58 AM
Well sure, it's all subjective to the individual. I should add that I don't necessarily listen to the song and think "Ah, Marilyn Manson must be singing about American planes that used to have Swastikas on them and a song by Primal Scream", it's just nice to be able to create a web of culture spanning from one theme. That isn't to say I disregard the original intent, I still maintain that the quote pertaining to Leni Riefenstahl was the initial phrase to inspire the song, but then as the person who identified that in the first place, I would. Still, going a little further and looking for other things is fun.

It's always nice to discuss these things with likeminded folk.
_______________

Anyway, new thoughts...

Why in the name of all that is unholy this hasn't occurred to me (or anyone else for that matter) before is beyond me, but nonetheless, it was the first thing to come into my head this morning when I woke up, and I was excited to share it. The second track from Antichrist Superstar, is of course The Beautiful People, a song about how physicality is viewed and acted upon in society. Pretty As A Swastika also, is the second track from The High End Of Low, and features, as you'll easily ascertain, a similar thematic, concerning not how society sees and describes beauty, but how Manson does. What occurred to me today was the significance of the following lyric:-


"Capitalism has made it this way, old-fashioned fascism will take it away"

C A P I T A L I S M --- $ / F A S C I S M --- 卐

"Hey you, what do you see?" --- "I see you in the sun"
"Something beautiful and something free" --- "You're as pretty as a Swastika"


Evident parallels arise between the "voyeurism" of body fascism, how the individual perceives a subject in comparison to how society does, and further dualities between beauty/pretty and freedom/fascism. Furthermore, Manson enquires as to what "you" see in The Beautiful People, and keeping in mind as ever that --- I AM YOU --- he then tells us what he sees, not only in the latter song, but also at the infamous MTV performance (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo3pLmBrJwQ) of the former.

Coincidence? I think fucking not.

Procrastinator
02-18-2010, 02:45 PM
There is something a bit irrelevant that I would like to share, and this seemed the most appropriate existing thread to do so.

I made a small research on the swastika and discovered that its other name (so to speak) is Fylfot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fylfot), which in Anglo-Saxon and Old Norse means "four-footed" or "many footed" (http://www.nachtkabarett.com/ihvh/img/lestweforget.jpg). Looking at the swastika as we know it (if it's right-facing for example), its arms suggest a clockwise rotation:



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/Cw_right-facing_swastika.ant.svg/143px-Cw_right-facing_swastika.ant.svg.png


However, if we view them as simplified feet, then their movement is respectively counter clock-wise. In this train of thought, the swastika appears as a symbol of dualistic nature, much like the double cross. What is more interesting, is that I found that I'm not the only one who draws comparisons between these two symbols, though in different ways...



Bishop Fulton J. Sheen, on the April 6, 1941 edition of his radio program The Catholic Hour, not only compared the Cross of Christ with the swastika, but also implied that siding with fascism was a "double-crossing" of Christianity.And of course, there is a lot more to this symbol, its meanings and applications in different times and cultures, which suggests even more ways to look at it and make connections to Manson's work. There are also more intriguing details I have found during my research, which I intend to continue sooner or later, so this was a rather basic observation I hope you enjoy. Thank you everyone for your posts too, they were very interesting.

The Empirical Guy
02-18-2010, 10:30 PM
Interesting thoughts and finds here by all. And Procrastinator, I may be wrong but I believe the 15/ $ thing is discussed in the 15 thread.

Procrastinator
02-22-2010, 05:04 AM
^ My bad. I haven't been keeping track on that thread.

S.D.
07-07-2010, 03:35 PM
"Our first show was at Churchill's Hideaway in Miami. Twenty people showed up, though now we're famous at least twenty-one claim to have been there.
Being very literal-minded, I wore a Marilyn Monroe T-shirt, but I added a Manson-style swastika to her forehead." - Marilyn Manson, The Long Hard Road Out Of Hell.
As I suggested somewhere here, Marilyn Monroe as "pretty" in relation to "swastika" is inferred at the very first Marilyn Manson live performance.

Also, there are other sections to The Long Hard Road Out Of Hell that might have been subtly referenced during Manson's explanations for Pretty As A Swastika. In the Empyrean interview at the centre of the book, he talks about how Madonna's label, Maverick, had to check with the band's management to see if any of Manson's tattoos included Swastikas. Despite the imagery of Satan and Occultism on his sleeves, they were only interested in symbols that might have included Anti-Semite undertones.
Manson goes on to explain that Maverick actually offered them a contract (which is erroneous with the oft-circulated story that they were declined by the label because of Madonna Wayne Gacy's name), and it was this that put pressure on Interscope to offer one simultaneously, which the band accepted. In the interview Manson quotes Interscope as having said "We're willing to put out the record and we'll even pay for it", which juxtaposes the Swastika with the Dollar again. In the same interview Manson also mentioned the failed production job executed by Roli Mossiman (formerly of Swans) on the original version of Portrait Of An American Family. Nick Kushner has discovered at The Nachtkabarett that the Dollar logo used in the Armageddon video, and for Pretty As A Swastika on tour was potentially inspired (alongside the Antichrist Superstar emblem) by a similar logo used in Swans' artwork:-


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_8ZjZsrwpzf0/Rtekpvi5dkI/AAAAAAAAAMw/tluN0Wp-JGk/s400/R-388082-1106738303.jpg (http://musicfortherestofus.blogspot.com/2007/08/swans-copyoung-godgreedholy-money.html)


It's not for me to say what Manson's intent was, but I do find it interesting how stories regarding the beginning of the band's contract with Interscope, and the final album released through them before it ended have these similarities.

Also, the Empyrean interview is funny in a sad way in this respect, because Manson says the first thing Maverick asked them about was whether the band are Jewish, which Gacy is (and Manson with Polish ancestry), yet they still asked the "Swastika" question. But on top of that, strangely the Manson/Gacy lawsuit ended a week or so after the Interscope contract, and also the day before Manson proposed to Evan Rachel Wood.
The most prominent reason why this seems so odd is because the two main claims Gacy made in the lawsuit were that Manson used accumulative band profits for personal exploits, including a "$150,000 engagement ring" and "Nazi paraphernalia". Swastikas, contracts, money, marriage, "Et Cetera" spanning an entire discography. It's a small world after all.

Norsefire
03-11-2012, 03:17 PM
Listening to Pink Floyd - Comfortably Numb tonight and this lyric popped out to me. Surprised it's not mentioned, although I wont be surprised if it's in another thread although I did search.



"Can you show me where it hurts?"
- Comfortably Numb, Pink Floyd





"Let me show you where it hurts"
- Pretty As A ($), Marilyn Manson


Thought that was a cool similarity and we know Manson is a fan of that song as well -


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuk_TzuYm6s

petticoat
03-11-2012, 03:52 PM
^ Nice find, Norsefire! Pink Floyd depresses me so I avoid actively listening, but I'm tempted to listen to Comfortably Numb now...

Sans Agendum
03-17-2012, 01:16 AM
Right Angles and The Sun you say?

http://thetruthbehindthescenes.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/ufo-soho-7-18-2011.jpg

http://scottcwaring.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/ae5c240e-1d43-47d9-ac8e-0b5a88b4af7e175.jpg