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S.D.
08-19-2009, 12:03 PM
I know that -< me >- was looking for the interview that this is taken from, and it is the only excerpt I have, which I found accidentally on an old computer today. I think what he has to say here would merit some interesting discourse.
_______________

"You know 0 is illegal, because if God is everywhere, then he can't not be somewhere. And 0 is a place that doesn't even have God, so it's heretical. And people used to be so freaked out about infinity. Everyone accepts zero with such ease, but not infinity. I mean, the calculator still goes "Eeek!" when you try to do anything with it. All you're doing is dividing by zero. That's all you're really doing, because they are full reciprocals of each other. 1 over infinity is zero, or the limit of it as it approaches, and 1 over zero is infinity. So you have infinity to deal with as soon as you bring in zero. It's the same concept, the concept of every number. There are more numbers that are irrational between zero and one then there are prime numbers in the universe. One infinity is bigger then another infinity. It's just so insane. The set of all numbers in infinite. The set of all positive numbers is infinite. But I know that at any given point, one infinity is smaller then the other infinity. It just goes to show you that math is still truly mystical and magical. It's still cabalistic when you get into higher math. People don't realize that this was shit that you weren't allowed to know in the past. You're lucky that the Church lets you read this. You're lucky that you're allowed to know all the secrets of math. And I think people go to school, and they don't want to learn about, and they don't want to know about it. They don't realize that people died just to have the chance to look upon this information. It's tragic in a strange way. The appreciation of knowledge has decreased so much in my lifetime. It's very sad people like information more then knowledge. And they're not the same thing."

Miss Lisa
08-20-2009, 03:51 AM
Here is another Pogo interview by circus magazine with a similar theme:

Circus:
So was this a normal show for you guys-non stop crowd surfing, and the speakers almost getting knocked over and falling on the crowdís head?

Madonna Wayne Gacy:
Actually, I think we broke less stuff then normal. We only broke 2 guitars, a lot of beer bottles, and a few mystery things. You'll have to excuse me...I keep spitting up blood. I accidentally ate ground glass tonight. I quit drinking for a while, just to see if I can... a challenge to myself! I'm only drinking water, and all they had out for me tonight was beer. So as soon as I walked on stage, I smashed every beer bottle. There was ground glass over everything. So every time I did anything, I was constantly spitting up glass. I paid for my own stupidity.

Circus:
When the band went into the studio for this album, there was a definite plan and a theme you were building on. Did you leave much room for creativity?

Madonna Wayne Gacy:
There is always room for creativity. Everybody generally writes their own parts. Mr. Manson doesnít say "Play the keyboard part here" He comes up with the ideas vocally and then I do what I do.

Circus:
Was there more room for you to stretch out musically on this album?

Madonna Wayne Gacy:
That's real hard for me to tell. When you're on the inside you really canít see. To me, it's always really been the same. We've been working for Mr. Manson for 6 years with this band. We haven't hit a noticeable difference.

Circus:
What were the differences between the recording of this record and Portrait?

Madonna Wayne Gacy:
On this one, we did a lot of really bizarre things in the studio to try to get the right vibe going. We made some strange little contraptions to torture ourselves. We stopped eating and sleeping and did things in an attempt to alter our own perception. It's strange... there's a lot of weird stuff about this album. Constantly we are finding things in it, we didnít know were in it, but are in it later. You put shit in there but you don't realize why you did, and later it comes back and it's very scary. It kind of predicts the future, but you donít know until itís done. It's kind of spooky in that way. Kind of like that Tupac video where he gets shot at the end. There are some weird things going on... some synchronicity or something.

Circus:
What was the hardest part about making this album?

Madonna Wayne Gacy:
Living in New Orleans. I hate that place. It's got beautiful architecture and it's nice in the wintertime, but in the summer itís oppressively hot. I guess it might be good to torment you to the point where a lot of hate comes out of you and gets focused onto the record. I guess in that respect it's good. There is some amazing architecture and good culture, but it just seems like a town of the least common denominator where everyone is just filthy and drunk and smelly. People think that that is some how more real, but I donít think living in a sewer is some how more real.

Circus:
I guess for this album you wouldn't want to be in an ideal place. It might take away your edge.

Madonna Wayne Gacy:
We don't make any place we are at an ideal place. We bring our own misconduct and hate and bad times with us wherever we go. We don't need the city to add to it. We're generally miserable and shitty no matter where we are. Then when you have the extra bonus track of this place... it might have been good in that respect, but I'll have to think about it. A couple of years from now, I'll be able to reevaluate that question, but right now I'm just glad to get out of there.

Circus:
This album leaves a lot of room for the next album's direction.

Madonna Wayne Gacy:
It does leave a lot of leeway. This album is almost a record and a half. We had enough material for two records.

Circus:
Was there any thought given to making this a double album?

Madonna Wayne Gacy:
The thought might have crossed our minds, but we wanted it to be cohesive. There is a high thematic content. A lot of songs were particularly chosen to be in a particular order for the structure of the album. There is a lot of numerological significance to what songs we put in there, in what order and how they're set up. I've been studying up on Hebrew Kabalistic and numerological texts. We've been coming up with some strange things with numbers. Spooky. Hebrew numbers and letter like the Roman numbers are letters. So therefore every word has a number that it is associated with as well as every sound does. There are a lot of very powerful things to words that people don't realize. In traditional magic, the most powerful thing is to be able to utter the name of God. You can undo creations. Remember God said "Let there be light". By his very word he created the universe. The word is all-powerful- 'I am the word, I'm the way.' Words are what it is all about Just the ability to pronounce and vibrate the name of God is supposed to be the most powerful magical thing you could ever do in traditional magic.
We were working on seeing if there was a way to bring about the apocalypse. The apocalypse won't happen. The devil can't break into this world from the nether world and destroy it. He has to be let in by humans. The gates unlock from the inside. He can only destroy the world if you let him in. He can't break in; he's not that powerful. One thing we were trying to do was to open those gates for an apocalypse now. The apocalypse may not be the traditional type of apocalypse where it is the end of the world. But the end of the world does come when you die. Your own experiences die. The world began and ends with you. The apocalypse we are trying to bring about may not be an apocalypse for the entire world. It might actually be your own personal apocalypse. A psychological apocalypse. When you destroy yourself completely by letting in the dark that is out there. Coming to embrace it and accept it, and realize that it needs to be there.

For things to get better, it always must be destroyed for new ways to come about. We were working a lot with those concepts very deliberately. There is a lot of significance with the numbers and symbols you see with the record. It isn't some ridiculous Ozzy thing. We weren't trying to be like that. It was about the meaningfulness of words and what words are all about. And melodies, too. They're related to words. The traditional idea of words is the power in words is in the words. Vowels vibrate and resonate. That is where tone and melody is. What consonants do is control vowels. They close them off and chain vowels down. We were trying to combine many polar opposites and get past a lot of traditional ideas we had ourselves of what the universe is about and what ourselves are about, because we are the universe. It's weird, I'd like to be able to explain more of this, but it's kind of confusing in some ways. A lot of people find it a bit esoteric, so I don't want to get into it too much and get people completely confused. People, if they ever get a chance, might want to look into it. The word is the most powerful thing there is.

S.D.
08-20-2009, 04:15 AM
The thoughts he offers at the end of that interview are fascinating. I think it's something of a shame that he isn't a part of the band or creative process any more, I feel he was an equal to Manson regarding personal philosophy, and his role in that is overlooked somewhat in the Manson canon also.


"In traditional magic, the most powerful thing is to be able to utter the name of God."
"If it hasn't learned your name, you better kill it before they see it"

This line I believe to be about the power of one's own self, the identity that we hold close to, and the power that others can have over that. If we are "our own wicked gods", then what happens if someone "learns" our name and utters it? Similarly, we must surely also be infinity/zero if we are able to control our own fate?

-<me>-
08-20-2009, 04:34 AM
I know that -<me>- was looking for the interview that this is taken from, and it is the only excerpt I have, which I found accidentally on an old computer today. I think what he has to say here would merit some interesting discourse.

Thank you so much S.D.! This is the exact part of the interview that I wanted. As discussed privately, "God isn now here / God is no where", 0 = infinity, Ain sof "et cetera". Thank you also to Miss Lisa.

The Empirical Guy
08-20-2009, 04:54 AM
Just goes to show how much of a genius Pogo was, in his own way. Probably too scrambled in his thinking for most people to be able to understand it, but a genius nevertheless. I intend to read up on the stuff he talks about when I have some more time.

Miss Lisa
08-20-2009, 05:14 AM
Yeah, if anyone has more Pogo interviews/ponderings on this deeper level like these posted, I would be most interested to read them.

-<me>-
08-21-2009, 06:34 AM
Just goes to show how much of a genius Pogo was, in his own way. Probably too scrambled in his thinking for most people to be able to understand it, but a genius nevertheless. I intend to read up on the stuff he talks about when I have some more time.

This may make me slightly weird, but, I understand it. :S

Emma
08-22-2009, 03:51 AM
Thanks for all your insights guys - I don't have loads of time to post but I've been enjoying reading.

The Empirical Guy
08-22-2009, 05:18 AM
Just goes to show how much of a genius Pogo was, in his own way. Probably too scrambled in his thinking for most people to be able to understand it, but a genius nevertheless. I intend to read up on the stuff he talks about when I have some more time.

This may make me slightly weird, but, I understand it. :S

Me too, but shhhhh! Keep it to ourselves, or it attracts attention from men in white coats.

S.D.
08-22-2009, 06:01 AM
I have attempted to theorise the concept of zero/infinity to a degree before, mostly when I originally read this intervew and discussed it with my brother, who is a gifted mathematician, I think it's interesting that they are essentially the only numbers which aren't quantities, but which also cannot be named. Does that mean they are still quantities, what is their substance? Where are they to be found? --- God is nowhere/now here --- "If it hasn't learned your name" --- "We are our own wicked gods" --- et cetera...

But zero and infinity are also death, they are the end of every thing, but they have no thing in them. It's like the idea of retaining someone's image after they have died, is it actually them? Are we more than the sum of ourselves, or are we reflected in other people, or the cameras that capture our image? When studying film, some theorists I talked with were keen to point out the fact that film doesn't actually "exist", it isn't really there, you're seeing the echo of something that already occurred. And to an extent, all art is that, unless you see it as a part of your self, if you are the art.
It's also interesting that zero is used to round off other numbers. Why is twenty not a number in itself, why does it have to be a combination of a two and a zero? It's like the ouroboros, a snake eating its tail (itself another depiction of zero/infinity), it seems to signify that you can only get to a certain point before things repeat themselves (when it's all the same you can ask for it by name), and perhaps that if they are representative of God, then like religions themselves, God is always changing, it never has one set personality, because we decide what God is --- "I went to God just to see, and I was looking at me" --- and that is a sign of God's omnipotence.

The Empirical Guy
08-22-2009, 06:13 AM
I have attempted to theorise the concept of zero/infinity to a degree before, mostly when I originally read this intervew and discussed it with my brother, who is a gifted mathematician, I think it's interesting that they are essentially the only numbers which aren't quantities, but which also cannot be named. Does that mean they are still quantities, what is their substance? Where are they to be found? --- God is nowhere/now here --- "If it hasn't learned your name" --- "We are our own wicked gods" --- et cetera...



You mentioned the line from Arma-Goddamn-Motherfuckin-Geddon, which is something I've often thought about since the song's release. I was already familiar with what Pogo mentions above about being able to say the name of God being a powerful thing, however this fact remains true in much magic and even general fantasy and mythology: to know the true name of a demon, spirit or similar creature is to have power over it. I've often drawn connections to that line of lyrics: First you try to fuck it, then you try to eat it. Then, if it hasn't gotten power over you, you better kill them before they do. A real "it's me or them" kind of statement.

[god]speed
08-23-2009, 07:10 AM
Cryptorchidism ( commonly present in doGs ie an undescended goD)

4321 NEVER GET TO SEVEN, I Wish I Had My Balls

DISASSOCIATIVE

4,3,2,1 Ahhh..Ahhh..Ahhhhhhhh I Can Never Get Out Of Here I Don't Wanna Just Float In Fear

IT IS FINISHED WHEN SEVEN ARE ONE




4 3 TO 1

Hate Sells
09-03-2009, 08:45 AM
4321 NEVER GET TO SEVEN, I Wish I Had My Balls

Lol...I could have sworn it was "wings" and not balls. :P

secretsquirrely
09-06-2009, 01:34 PM
plus doesn't he clearly say "I wish I had my balls" in the song? or am I mistaken there?

09-08-2009, 02:32 AM
I think what Pogo was talking about is that Zero can't exist. It's a contradiction in itself. You can have one, two, three, or 678,968,4958 apples, but you can't have 0 apples because your quantity does not exist.

"You know 0 is illegal, because if God is everywhere, then he can't not be somewhere."

Um, I don't know how else to simply my argument other than 0 doesn't exist. :) It reminds me of something that Richard Dawkins said along the lines of "Sure, you can't disprove the existence of God, but you can't prove it either. The same applies to a 20 foot chocolate bunny in space. You can't prove that wrong either."

Currently, I have 0 light-sabers, Photon Accelerator Annihilation Beams, continuum transfuctioners, and gubblegobbers. Do those things actually exist? No.

Ugh.

I hope you guys know what I mean.

-<me>-
09-09-2009, 06:36 AM
I think what Pogo was talking about is that Zero can't exist. It's a contradiction in itself. You can have one, two, three, or 678,968,4958 apples, but you can't have 0 apples because your quantity does not exist.

"You know 0 is illegal, because if God is everywhere, then he can't not be somewhere."



I hope you guys know what I mean.

Exactly, +1|1- just like the "Line between the devils tits" you're driving on E (empty) there is no 0.
Zero doesn't exist, or rather 0 = ?.

THIS MUST BE SOLVVED....
http://www.tree.org/patterns2.htm

"But since the Macrocosm is infinite, and the unchanging Tao ineffable, particular perspectives are only possible at the expense of perfect clarity. That is, we may see ďRealityĒ as a succession of Fixed Field Illusions ó a sequence of static arrangements like the still frames of a ďmotion picture,Ē whose motion or change only becomes apparent by the rapid succession of those still frames. Or, on the other hand, we may see reality as a succession of changes. Of course, the only way we can view reality at all through either perspective is by means of the other. The succession of Fixed Field Illusions forms one perspective of reality, and the succession of Points of Change forms a complimentary perspective as a parallel universe.

The importance of retaining both perspectives simultaneously is illustrated by the dilemma of the physicists who can not agree on whether a photon of light is a point or a field. Of course it is both at once, and neither the one nor the other! It requires a larger vision of consciousness to perceive the ultimate balance where the entire Macrocosm finally becomes equivalent simultaneously to Zero and Infinity, only apparently existing as a field of manifestation between them by means of the distinction imagined to exist between infinite moments of eternity.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_R0r7NPtiiEk/Smdj_2FeNpI/AAAAAAAAB3M/bk_Iu3MKoQU/s400/hwinfinite.jpg

S.D.
09-09-2009, 07:00 AM
The only way we can view reality at all through either perspective is by means of the other. The succession of Fixed Field Illusions forms one perspective of reality, and the succession of Points of Change forms a complimentary perspective as a parallel universe.


"I know you're not just what you say to me
and I'm not the only moment you're made of"

I feel this line correlates with the idea quote well, the notion that we are only realised in the eyes of another, which teaches us who we are as indivuduals. The study of the learned self is based in this idea - "I AM YOU".

sugarbaby
09-09-2009, 10:02 AM
Great posts everyone.We're always running to the edge of the world to find ourselves[to get to zero],and always crashing in the same car.Always,a checkmate to become a stalemate.Don't know if the world will end today.

Arch Dandy
06-02-2010, 07:17 AM
Thank you so much for the interviews Miss Lisa and S.D. I do also wish that Pogo was still involved in the band, I have always been a fan of his keyboard work and just of him in general I suppose. (On a side note, when I heard that when he didn't have a keyboard when he first joined the band and just sat around on stage playing with army men, i thought that was about the funniest and coolest thing i had ever heard.) But anyway, this interview has a lot of information in it, and I'll have to go over it a few more times I think before I can really understand it. But thanks again guys, great interviews.

Arch Dandy
06-02-2010, 07:23 AM
I know that -< me >- was looking for the interview that this is taken from, and it is the only excerpt I have, which I found accidentally on an old computer today. I think what he has to say here would merit some interesting discourse.
_______________

"You know 0 is illegal, because if God is everywhere, then he can't not be somewhere. And 0 is a place that doesn't even have God, so it's heretical. And people used to be so freaked out about infinity. Everyone accepts zero with such ease, but not infinity. I mean, the calculator still goes "Eeek!" when you try to do anything with it. All you're doing is dividing by zero. That's all you're really doing, because they are full reciprocals of each other. 1 over infinity is zero, or the limit of it as it approaches, and 1 over zero is infinity. So you have infinity to deal with as soon as you bring in zero. It's the same concept, the concept of every number. There are more numbers that are irrational between zero and one then there are prime numbers in the universe. One infinity is bigger then another infinity. It's just so insane. The set of all numbers in infinite. The set of all positive numbers is infinite. But I know that at any given point, one infinity is smaller then the other infinity. It just goes to show you that math is still truly mystical and magical. It's still cabalistic when you get into higher math. People don't realize that this was shit that you weren't allowed to know in the past. You're lucky that the Church lets you read this. You're lucky that you're allowed to know all the secrets of math. And I think people go to school, and they don't want to learn about, and they don't want to know about it. They don't realize that people died just to have the chance to look upon this information. It's tragic in a strange way. The appreciation of knowledge has decreased so much in my lifetime. It's very sad people like information more then knowledge. And they're not the same thing."

So what he's saying is that we've all been taught this in school and we don't even know it? (or we know it and don't care to know about it)

S.D.
06-03-2010, 04:34 PM
So what he's saying is that we've all been taught this in school and we don't even know it? (or we know it and don't care to know about it)

Whether it's precisely what Pogo meant to imply, I have an interpretation.

The way he explains, it's like the idea of taking things for granted, or the old "never judge a book by its cover" notion. People disregard or under-appreciate things that have greater meaning too easily, the Internet is a good example. There is this tool which can be used to supply and proliferate any idea, any zeitgeist, any school of thought possible, and yet so often people reduce it to triviality, or asinine "blogging". I'm not saying that a source of knowledge has to always be this serious, academic construct, we all like to use technology for leisure, but the speed at which people can obtain things in the modern world also makes them stupid, and lazy sometimes.
If you want to know about something today, you can use a search engine to find information on it within seconds, but although I fully support the process of free learning, there are some methods of obtaining information that make people assume they are more learned than they actually are. I like to discuss art and music, and culture and politics, but I'm not going to base my opinions of any of those things on a click-of-a-button Google search, or what I was told in five seconds on the news. Knowing the world around you should be more complex than that, and part of both experience and the desire to know. If someone wanted to talk to me about socio-political unrest in China, I'd know that such a thing existed, but not the intricate reasons why, or how that happened. I wouldn't want to embarass myself by Googling the subject just to make it seem I knew what I was talking about, I'd prefer to have someone who knows their shit tell me about it. The same applies both ways, I enjoy being able to offer information and insight to people on the things I have studied, or read about frequently, should they desire it.

Regarding numbers, I think he's treading some very interesting waters in a simple way for the sake of making it more legible. It's essentially the mathematics of the phrase "I have nothing". To say you "have" nothing, surely you are identifying nothing as a something? It's the "presence of absence". Even negative space has a presence, it's just not the same as we're accustomed to, like how we perceive the world to be constructed of solid, hard shapes, but that's only because we aren't able to see all the space and vibrations between particles that create this illusion. His thoughts on god tie into that as well, because surely if god represents omnipotence, that is infinite, but if god is infinite, how can any single faith or person define what god is? If there's never been a beginning or an end to god, no one with a lifespan can claim monopoly on its form or existence.

I hope the Internet doesn't break or anything the more this topic proceeds...

Arch Dandy
06-03-2010, 06:26 PM
Whether it's precisely what Pogo meant to imply, I have an interpretation.

The way he explains, it's like the idea of taking things for granted, or the old "never judge a book by its cover" notion. People disregard or under-appreciate things that have greater meaning too easily, the Internet is a good example. There is this tool which can be used to supply and proliferate any idea, any zeitgeist, any school of thought possible, and yet so often people reduce it to triviality, or asinine "blogging". I'm not saying that a source of knowledge has to always be this serious, academic construct, we all like to use technology for leisure, but the speed at which people can obtain things in the modern world also makes them stupid, and lazy sometimes.
If you want to know about something today, you can use a search engine to find information on it within seconds, but although I fully support the process of free learning, there are some methods of obtaining information that make people assume they are more learned than they actually are. I like to discuss art and music, and culture and politics, but I'm not going to base my opinions of any of those things on a click-of-a-button Google search, or what I was told in five seconds on the news. Knowing the world around you should be more complex than that, and part of both experience and the desire to know. If someone wanted to talk to me about socio-political unrest in China, I'd know that such a thing existed, but not the intricate reasons why, or how that happened. I wouldn't want to embarass myself by Googling the subject just to make it seem I knew what I was talking about, I'd prefer to have someone who knows their shit tell me about it. The same applies both ways, I enjoy being able to offer information and insight to people on the things I have studied, or read about frequently, should they desire it.

Regarding numbers, I think he's treading some very interesting waters in a simple way for the sake of making it more legible. It's essentially the mathematics of the phrase "I have nothing". To say you "have" nothing, surely you are identifying nothing as a something? It's the "presence of absence". Even negative space has a presence, it's just not the same as we're accustomed to, like how we perceive the world to be constructed of solid, hard shapes, but that's only because we aren't able to see all the space and vibrations between particles that create this illusion. His thoughts on god tie into that as well, because surely if god represents omnipotence, that is infinite, but if god is infinite, how can any single faith or person define what god is? If there's never been a beginning or an end to god, no one with a lifespan can claim monopoly on its form or existence.

I hope the Internet doesn't break or anything the more this topic proceeds...


I understand completely. You have great insight on what he says, I just need to think about it to really get to what he's saying personally.

[god]speed
09-13-2010, 10:55 PM
Regardless of how some people want to portray Pogo following the lawsuit, Pogo will always be one of my favorite members of Marilyn Manson whether currrent or not. His intellect and aura is unparalleled and this thread proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Slightly on topic:
Does anyone happen to have the interview that Boyd Rice conducted with Pogo? It has been lost since the demise of the Phant and I would love to read that once again.


[g]S

Norsefire
09-14-2010, 04:36 AM
I'm sure that's been put forward in the next lot of updates in the interview archive. I can't say for sure without being able to check, but I think it's there.

Dronepool
09-14-2010, 07:17 PM
speed;74543']Regardless of how some people want to portray Pogo following the lawsuit, Pogo will always be one of my favorite members of Marilyn Manson whether currrent or not. His intellect and aura is unparalleled and this thread proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Slightly on topic:
Does anyone happen to have the interview that Boyd Rice conducted with Pogo? It has been lost since the demise of the Phant and I would love to read that once again.


[g]S

I have it.

Dronepool
09-14-2010, 07:18 PM
Dagobert's Revenge Mag: Pogo interview by Boyd Rice
I received the issue in the mail today and took the liberty of typing the goddamn thing up. Anyone who's met Pogo knows he rambles; now imaging trying to type up one of those rants.

IF you want to put this on your site, PLEASE give me credit for typing the fucking thing up. Credit me as bat. Thank you.

-------------------
Dagobert's Revenge Volume 5 Issue 1

Once a Catholic, always a Catholic.
Pogo: aka Madonna Wayne Gacy

Interview by Boyd Rice

DR: I remember when Columbine happened and the media blamed your band. You guys cancelled the Denver show, which was scheduled for just a couple of weeks after. And then it turned out that the media had just jumped to conclusions in implicating you guys. But they never said, "Oh we were wrong", so there's still this general consensus that these kids listened to one of your records and went on a rampage.

Pogo: I don't believe that's so. Ultimately, the music they listened to had nothing to do with what they did. I wish music was that powerful.

DR: Well, do you think people overestimate the influence of music, or are they underestimating it? The influence can be profound.

Pogo: But the action is up to the individual. I mean, you can be profoundly influenced by a lot of things, but your ultimate actions are your decisions, your choice, and they're completely separate from your influences. Some people are completely ineffectual, and have lots of grandiose ideas, but never do anything. Other people are a little bit overactive. They sometimes take those things which should be fantastic and introspective and make them appear on the outside world. I mean, everybody has dreams of doing terrible things to other people all the time. I know for a fact.

DR: And you didn't as a teenager?

Pogo: I did more as a teenager. I was way more mean-spirited then.

DR: I talked with Marilyn Manson at the time of ACSS and that's the one where he credited you with formulating some of the numerological principles which were used in the record. What exactly were you trying to accomplish with that? Was it just an experiment?

Pogo: I think that's the true name of God. Math is like the mind of God. Numbers are the mind of God. That's why music is so beautiful and harmonious.

DR: That's something Pythagoras got from the antediluvian forgotten race.

Pogo: I don't know where he got it, but Pythagoras was the MAN. I love that guy. He knew that music and math were the same thing in the mind of God. It's like, universal in a strange way. It sounds so clich?o say that music and math are the universal language, but it's true.

DR: You can't refute it.

Pogo: It's such an abstraction of the universe. You know 0 is illegal, because if God is everywhere, then he can't not be somewhere. And 0 is a place that doesn't even have God, so it's heretical. And people used to be so freaked out about infinity. Everyone accepts zero with such ease, but not infinity. I mean, the calculator still goes "Eeek!" when you try to do anything with it. All you're doing is dividing by zero. That's all you're really doing, because they are full reciprocals of each other. 1 over infinity is zero, or the limit of it as it approaches, and 1 over zero is infinity. So you have infinity to deal with as soon as you bring in zero. It's the same concept, the concept of every number. There are more numbers that are irrational between zero and one then there are prime numbers in the universe. One infinity is bigger then another infinity. It's just so insane. The set of all numbers in infinite. The set of all positive numbers is infinite. But I know that at any given point, one infinity is smaller then the other infinity. It just goes to show you that math is still truly mystical and magical. It's still cabalistic when you get into higher math. People don't realize that this was shit that you weren't allowed to know in the past. You're lucky that the Church lets you read this. You're lucky that you're allowed to know all the secrets of math. And I think people go to school, and they don't want to learn about, and they don't want to know about it. They don't realize that people died just to have the chance to look upon this information. It's tragic in a strange way. The appreciation of knowledge has decreased so much in my lifetime. It's very sad people like information more then knowledge. And they're not the same thing.

DR: Now it's like disinformation.

Pogo: Everything's been reduced down to the easiest decision-making process, and computers make that especially easy. It's binary. It's 'yes' or 'no'.



DR: Have you ever read The Book of Enoch? It was kicked out of the Bible. And it's obviously something that was written exactly after the Babylonian captivity, because it is the first book that sort of has the Luciferian thing going on. It has symbolism that is precisely like the symbolism of Revelation. It's like Zoroatriamism, where there's this everlasting conflict between light and darkness, good and evil. And it describes 'the Watchers', which are these angels that fell to Earth, that fucked the wives of men...

Pogo: Yeah yeah, when giants walked the Earth. The fields of Nephilim. I remember that.

DR: Absolutely. The Watchers are prototypes of Satan.

Pogo: There's so much of that stuff out there like that, too. Like the Gnostic stuff. It's much related to that, where Christ is very different from Jehovah and Yahweh. Like the Yezidi, and that weird Luciferian Christ. Yahwah was the demiurge.

DR: He was the Lord of the Earth. The Gnostics very much thought that.

Pogo: And Jesus is closer to the Old Testament Lucifer in some ways, as a revel, someone who was even above and outside the demiurge.

DR: The only thing that I thought was cool about the story of Jesus is that it's funny that God couldn't forgive us until he had to walk in our shoes. You know, in a way, Jehovah was real arrogant. He was a real dick. But then after God became man, then he could forgive us for the sin of Adam. It's a strange story of a father having a Freak Friday and turning into his daughter. A Disney movie, like Big or some shit. It's strange territory. God makes man, man goes and eats and becomes as smart as God, with knowledge of good and evil. God gets freaked out. "Oh my God Don't eat from the Tree of Life. Get the fuck out of here." Then he sent these fucking badasses to kick us out, curses us forever, then says "Oh, I finally forgive you because I didn't realize how hard it was not to be a pig and fart in public, and not rape people, just 'cause there's a law against it." God was a really harsh judge until he got to be a person and then he realized, "Hey, I need to calm down and go to the desert."

DR: Well, it seems like in the Old Testament the Devil was a bit player. I feel that the Lucifer/Satan figure hadn't fully been coalesced yet. The Watchers in The Book of Enoch were the prototype of it. In the Old Testament, God had this dual nature. He would bless people, he would curse people, he was loved, he was feared. Jehovah was the good cop, and the bad cop.

Pogo: I agree. He started out being bipolar. Because "I am the father, and the father is me." That sounds like that Charles Manson rap. The Trinity is a weird thing. When the New Testament came out, Jehovah became this triple personality, instead of just a dual personality. And I agree with that, because I'm into Freudian stuff, and I myself have a triple-split personality: an emotional being, a physical being, and an intellectual being.

DR: Eliphas Levi essentially said that there are two powers that control the universe. One is positive, one is negative, and the equilibrium between the two is the third power.

Pogo: In the Tao Teh Ching, that's the first thing he says. First came the One, the Thing. Then the Thing and its Unthing. Because as soon as you create the thing you create the Unthing. And then besides the two things, the yin and the yang, is the equilibrium between the two, and that's the third thing. And that's exactly what Lao Tsu says in this first verse. And it took me so long to understand this. When he drew the symbol of the two [the yin-yang], they weren't static, they were moving. The heart of the yin is the yang, the black dot, and they heart of the yang is the yin. So each in itself contains the seed of its opposite. And you suddenly go 'Whoa, crap.' It's amazing.

DR: But this is the primordial archetypal symbol of every religion on Earth, whether it's the yin & yang or the seal of Solomon. This was the primordial archetype. This was the basis of every major world religion. They all retain the symbols, but they've forgotten what they mean.

Pogo: You know what's a weird bit of trivia that I didn't know until not too long ago? The minimum amount of lines that it takes to make a Star of David and a swastika are the same: 6. I don't think that's just a coincidence. And it's kind of creepy that six black lines can be rearranged to turn into such opposite things. I love how the word "Vodka" just means "water" in Slavic, and "Whiskey" means "Water of Life" in Celtic.

Dronepool
09-14-2010, 07:19 PM
DR: Have you ever heard this story about how people have something translated from one language to another, and then they have it translated back?

Pogo: Distortion, like making copies from copies. Like that whole entropy factor, the degeneration of the quality of information the more it passes through a point, a nose, information corrodes inherently. That's fuckin' creepy, man.

DR: Well, this had to do with vodka, which you were just talking about. And they translated it into Russian "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." And the Russian came back, "The Vodka is good, but the meat is rotten."

Pogo: Humans can't correctly perceive things, or translate them, or carry them without adding their own imperfections at some minor level. Because no one can pronounce a word exactly the same way as the person who told you the story pronounced it. You distort everything you say inherently, because you can't produce an exact copy. So anything that's word of mouth is going to be twisted in some crazy way, and that's why written text seems to have some sort of value. We look for the oldest written text, 'cause at least all you have to worry about is understanding the connotations. But for a human being, even with an inflection they can change a question to a statement, or a statement to a question. At least with text there's a symbol to let you know what the person meant. Think about how in the future, when people watch an episode of The Jeffersons, and they say "That's bad". nobody will know that it actually means "good." You can translate slang of any kind. That's one reason why I still think the Protestants were wrong against the Catholic church. I still don't think that everyone has the right to read the Bible. Idiots should not be allowed to read it. How can you understand what the Bible is saying if you don't understand the history of the time in which it was written? If you can't find Sumeria on a map... You know what I mean? Where' Carthage, where are the pyramids, where's Mount Sinai, and where is Babylon, and where were the Assyrians at? You can begin to understand some of these nuances by just knowing where the map looked like at the time, and who was were and when, and how these different empires came and passed. They're crammed all together, because it's so many thousands of years of history compressed. And it's really sad, 'cause people will read it and do really fucked up shit. I mean, you thought the Catholic church sucked for ripping off your aunt for money, and St. Vincent de Paul and whatnot. But then you see Protestant preachers on TV with ties and suits begging for money, it makes the fucking Sistine Chapel look like a great investment. At least the Pope's got a nice hat. This guy has a bad suit. Instead of having one jerk, like the Catholics, they have numerous popes in their own little churches. It's just a multiplication of evil. I guess, for me, once a Catholic, always a Catholic.

DR: Have you seen the new official Catholic depiction of Christ? He looks kind of a Rasta guy.

Pogo: I swear to God, Hank Williams and Rastas are the only people who make me like Jesus. I think the only thing that's good about Christianity is that it gives hopeless people hope. I don't think that's necessarily good, but it's a drug, and I believe in drugs.

DR: Hope is a lack of information.

Pogo: It's not real, but it's like God or UFOs or those things. Whether it's real or not, it's helpful for you to get through your life with it.




part III At this point Marilyn Manson pops into the room.

MM: That's what I said on TRL the other day. Some woman came up to me and said, "My daughter doesn't believe in God anymore because of you." And I said, "Well at least she doesn't believe in UFOs."

Pogo: How come every time they do a Bible reenactment they never get to Lot and his daughters? Remember that Lot and his daughters left Sodom and Gomorrah, and they got destroyed, and the wife looked back and turned to salt? What happened was, God had promised to keep the seed of Abraham alive, and Lot was the only one alive, along with his daughters. And so as to perpetuate the seed without Lot being guilty of incest, his daughters secretly got their father drunk and fucked him at night. And these were the only honest, noble, good people in Sodom and Gomorrah. Now that was a party town. I wish I was making this up. This is better then Oedipus. Two daughters conspire with malice and forethought to get their dad wasted and fuck him, so that they can preserve the seed of Abraham, because they are the only decent people left in Sodom and Gomorrah.

DR: In ancient mythology, that is a tradition, to have sex with your sister, to have sex with your mother...

Pogo: That's supposed to be the purest love of all, between a brother and sister.

DR: It's in all of the ancient mythologies. It's in the Egyptian mythologies, and the ring cycle. In ancient times it's pervasive. You'd be hard pressed to find anything that didn't have it.

Pogo: What I think is weird is how Europeans go around the world imposing their culture on people, when it was a culture that was imposed on them in the first place. We use the Roman alphabet, and all of our pillars of faith and thought come from Athens and Jerusalem. Jesus would be a lot cooler if he didn't rise from the dead. Because he's a real hero then.

DR: But death and resurrection is part of every culture's mythology. It goes back to Isis and Osiris. The kind dies, the sun turns black, he goes into the underworld, he rises as a God.

Pogo: I agree with you, but I think that's something that was imposed. I think the early European stuff was not that way. It was much bleaker, I think. To me, it seemed like something based on effort, not result. What made it great was the fact that evil wins and good looses at Ragnarok. The reason I think that's cool, though, is the realization that evil is inherently more powerful then good because they can cheat to win, and good can never cheat to win. So evil will always beat good because it doesn't have to play by the rules. Good has to play by the rules to be good. So it's an inherent disadvantage always to be good. If you're evil you have more options. I like the idea of going out and meeting defeat. And Jesus was about that. The Christians being fed to the lions, being heroic. That's one of the things that's great about Christianity is all of that martyrdom shit. Snake handlers kick ass. They get it. Christianity has got to be the weakest excuse, in a strange way, because you can do whatever wrong you want, and He's gotta forgive you if you ask Him.

DR: That's Catholicism.

Pogo: Aren't Protestants like that too? Yeah they are. That's what all of those Chick booklets are about. If I take the Lord as my savior, and admit that I'm a sinner, and all this bullshit, then they have to let me into heaven, no matter what I've done.

DR: It's been years since I've read a Chick booklet.

Pogo: But you know what I'm talking about. That contract that's in the back? As God really needs a contract, just like the Devil. He needs it written down. He doesn't settle for word of mouth anymore. How easy is that, though? I don't know of any other religion where you're allowed to screw up that much, and the gods just let it go. It makes it easy to be a much more sinister person, 'cause you always have an out.

DR: That's what Tiny Tim was like. He was the darkest, most lustful person on the face of the Earth, and he had that out. He could always ask for forgiveness, or do some "Hail Marys" or something, and it's like, he can have sex with a fifteen-year-old girl and - boom - it's all wiped off the slate.

Pogo: I would like a God who was actually like that. That's a very reasonable person. That sounds so opposite of Jehovah.

DR: It's almost like you have some contract with God, and there's a loophole. I could never understand the deal between God and the Israelites.

Pogo: It's a land-for-penis-skin deal.

DR: For me it's that keeps going back and forth between being angry and being nice. And you want to say "Jesus Christ, make your mind up Mister!"

Pogo: It's crazy. And who would want a jealous God? This guy's, like, actually envious and stuff, and really has some of the most base proclivities. I don't see that Jehovah guy as being that enlightened. The Old Testament God is a really spooky guy.

DR: No, I think he was more enlightened. What I think is that there are a number of gods that are just grouped together, and they're Jehovah, God, Lord, etc. Because in one instance he'd very jealous and angry, and in another he's beneficent. Sometimes he's said to live in the heavens, sometimes he lives inside Mt. Zion. What's that all about? 'Cause everyone agrees that God exists in Heaven. God and Heaven are synonymous.

Pogo: But the Catholic church has said that the definition of Heaven is being in the presence of God, and that's where he lives.

DR: But then they're all these references to God living inside a mountain. Living inside the Earth would be synonymous with Hell, Lucifer, the demiurge.

Pogo: It's so complex. I can never read enough. God's supposed to be everywhere, in Heaven and Earth. In Hell even. His enforcing power is there. 'Cause if his enforcing power is not there, why do black angels torture souls? They should be giving you donuts. "Thank you for raping somebody. Welcome to Hell

-<me>-
09-15-2010, 06:47 AM
^Thanks for this, it's one of my favorites! :)

Cringeon
09-15-2010, 06:50 AM
Thank you Dronepool, we appreciate you taking the time to transcribe it and posting it here.

[god]speed
09-15-2010, 07:48 AM
i completely missed the first post. When i clicked the thread i went down to the second post. I was wondering why it read like it was in the middle of an interview.




Pogo: How come every time they do a Bible reenactment they never get to Lot and his daughters? Remember that Lot and his daughters left Sodom and Gomorrah, and they got destroyed, and the wife looked back and turned to salt? What happened was, God had promised to keep the seed of Abraham alive, and Lot was the only one alive, along with his daughters.


This is one of my favorite interviews, I haven't even gotten the chance to read the first half yet, But truly... thank you I thought it was lost forever.

Dronepool
09-15-2010, 12:25 PM
No problem. I'm glad saving it paid off.


Thank you Dronepool, we appreciate you taking the time to transcribe it and posting it here.


No problem. But I didn't retype it, I posted what I saved from the original post. From what I have saved, he just mentioned to credit him as "bat". I saved this as a text file, so I didn't get the user name of the poster.

S.D.
09-19-2010, 12:17 PM
The copy of this that Norsefire has we were going to sling into the next Media Archive update, it's a pretty big hoard though, so I am glad this got highlighted on its own, because as mentioned, the chat between Pogo and Boyd Rice is a fantastic read, you can feel the intellectual energy bristling between the two of them as they talk.

In light of that, so they don't get overlooked, I have the two (individual) interviews Boyd did with both Manson and Twiggy in 1996 for Seconds Magazine, we've put them into the Module in advance. There were also some errors in the Pogo interview from the original transcribe, so sorry Bat, whoever you were, I corrected your mistakes.
Here they are for perusal:-

MARILYN MANSON & BOYD RICE
Seconds Magazine - "I Think The Children Have Come For Me" [1996]
http://www.providermodule.com/media/interviews/1996/boydrice_manson.html (http://www.providermodule.com/media/interviews/1996/boydrice_manson.html)

TWIGGY RAMIREZ & BOYD RICE
Seconds Magazine [1996]
http://www.providermodule.com/media/interviews/1996/boydrice_twiggy.html (http://www.providermodule.com/media/interviews/1996/boydrice_twiggy.html)

POGO & BOYD RICE
Dagobert's Revenge - Once A Catholic, Always A Catholic [2003]
http://www.providermodule.com/media/interviews/2003/boydrice_pogo.html (http://www.providermodule.com/media/interviews/2003/boydrice_pogo.html)

It's a little off-topic, and I might elaborate this into another post somewhere else another time, but there's actually something really interesting in the Twiggy interview, some comments that I feel might explain Manson's painting Oedepus...


http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/7745/p23p.jpg



"Speaking for myself and people that I know, who when they were young had the curiosity of trying on their mom's underpants and for some strange reason you realized you got an erection. I think that was one of the first erections I got, when I tried my mom's underpants on."

Perhaps this early experimentation and arousal is the reason behind Manson's Oedipal characterisation of Twiggy?

Alexandra
09-19-2010, 06:03 PM
I don't know why but I somehow missed this update but hey, better late than never. Big thanks to you, Dronepool. This interview with Pogo was a fantastic read and, I don't want to sound silly, but because of the subjects they brought up I found it to be very "inspiring". But not in a way that it made me want to grab something and start sketching or anything, just simply made my mind crush me with an overload of thoughts - that kind of way.


In light of that, so they don't get overlooked, I have the two (individual) interviews Boyd did with both Manson and Twiggy in 1996 for Seconds Magazine, we've put them into the Module in advance.

Sorry for asking about this (it's probably obvious to others) but I'm not sure if "in the light of that" means that you just uploaded these two other interviews that Boyd did back then? I mean, I'm pretty sure I understand what that phrase means (I think my English isn't that crippled, heh) and at first I thought that's what you meant but when I was reading the interview with Manson I could have sworn that I've already read it here before and got confused.
Well, now I do feel silly.

Anyway, big thanks as well, S.D., I especially enjoyed the one with Manson. It really made my day and now I wish there were more interviews like that to read... everyday. At least I'd never have the "bad day" issue ever again!

S.D.
09-19-2010, 07:26 PM
Haha, I wouldn't worry about the English barrier, for the most part it's my convoluted sentences that create confusion... ;)

Basically yes, those interviews were added in today. What I meant in the post above is that for four or five months I have been working on another big batch of Manson interviews for the archive (amongst other things), but because Boyd Rice was being discussed a fair bit here, I asked Norsefire to put the Seconds articles with Manson and Twiggy in now for people to enjoy. They are not centred on Theology or the more intense themes of the Dagobert's Revenge piece, but have some interesting material regardless (the part where Boyd almost floors Manson with Jung is pretty swish).
Anyway, I second the motion for thanks to Dronepool. I know you've said it wasn't your transcript, but whoever the original guy was, he made mistakes, but the copy we had needed some cross-referencing with this version, and it was a nice addition from you to add the article to this topic, so I'll get your credit in there, and it's such an important interview.

Also, now we're on the subject, has anyone ever done any reading into the Giants of The Bible that were discussed in the Pogo interview? I have looked into the Biblical periods both before and after The Flood, and the over-sized men on the Earth before that time were odd...

keyboards
11-01-2010, 07:42 AM
Dude, I've been slowly reading everything you've been posting about Pogo. He was the main focus (other than MM) in the band and because of him I fell in love with synthesizers. The one thing he had said about numbers being mythical and truly special has (can't believe I'm going to say this) made me seek Math again. I abstain from it, but... the way he spoke about numbers just brought a philosophical allure to them.

S.Hal0mega.B
11-01-2010, 03:02 PM
Haha, I wouldn't worry about the English barrier, for the most part it's my convoluted sentences that create confusion... ;)

Basically yes, those interviews were added in today. What I meant in the post above is that for four or five months I have been working on another big batch of Manson interviews for the archive (amongst other things), but because Boyd Rice was being discussed a fair bit here, I asked Norsefire to put the Seconds articles with Manson and Twiggy in now for people to enjoy. They are not centred on Theology or the more intense themes of the Dagobert's Revenge piece, but have some interesting material regardless (the part where Boyd almost floors Manson with Jung is pretty swish).
Anyway, I second the motion for thanks to Dronepool. I know you've said it wasn't your transcript, but whoever the original guy was, he made mistakes, but the copy we had needed some cross-referencing with this version, and it was a nice addition from you to add the article to this topic, so I'll get your credit in there, and it's such an important interview.

Also, now we're on the subject, has anyone ever done any reading into the Giants of The Bible that were discussed in the Pogo interview? I have looked into the Biblical periods both before and after The Flood, and the over-sized men on the Earth before that time were odd...


I've done plenty, the Nephilim - if my spelling is accurate.

S.D.
11-01-2010, 04:04 PM
Yes, those are the guys, it's part of the whole bullshit in Scripture that it suggests there were these massive, over-sized people wandering around, yet none of those races survived the Flood, and there is no evidence of their remains or existence, but we still have million-year-old Dinosaur skeletons... Plus there are some essays I have read about how the dates between Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, the Flood and the aftermath puts most of these people at hundreds of years old. I had considered that this might have been where the reported 400-year-old Pope figure Manson was due to play in Alejandro Jodorowsky's AbelCain found its inspiration.

And keyboards, I agree. I think that whether it's interviews like these from Pogo, or Manson speaking about number patterns and correlations in his own life, it gives mathematics a more mythic atmosphere than fucking long-division did in high school, where I was just bored with it and there was no magic behind the numbers.