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Arch Dandy
12-25-2009, 08:37 PM
"A doppelgänger ( pronunciation (help·info)) is the ghostly double of a living person, a sinister form of bilocation.

Look up doppelganger or Doppelgänger in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

In the vernacular, the word "doppelgänger" has come to refer (as in German) to any double or look-alike of a person. The word is also used to describe the sensation of having glimpsed oneself in peripheral vision, in a position where there is no chance that it could have been a reflection. They are generally regarded as harbingers of bad luck. In some traditions, a doppelgänger seen by a person's friends or relatives portends illness or danger, while seeing one's own doppelgänger is an omen of death. In Norse mythology, a vardøger is a ghostly double who precedes a living person and is seen performing their actions in advance."
- From wikipedia article "Doppelganger" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppelganger)

Is GAOG Marilyn Manson's alter ego? (i.e. doppelganger, black/white face)

http://www.nachtkabarett.com/babalon/topic/2938--Synesthesia

"Some authors, in particular Sadi Ranson, have suggested Carroll may have suffered from temporal lobe epilepsy in which consciousness is not always completely lost, but altered, and in which the symptoms mimic many of the same experiences as Alice in Wonderland. Note that Carroll had at least one incidence in which he suffered full loss of consciousness and awoke with a bloody nose, which he recorded in his diary and noted that the episode left him not feeling himself for "quite sometime afterward". This attack was diagnosed as possibly "epileptiform" and Carroll himself later wrote of his "SEIZURES" in the same diary."

Everyone remember the Celebritatian "seizure" of mm.com?

Perhaps GAOG is one of Manson's "seizures" , an alternate state of conciousness within his mind.

Just my theory everyone feel free to expand upon it and give your opinion.

[god]speed
12-25-2009, 08:47 PM
"A doppelgänger ( pronunciation (help·info)) is the ghostly double of a living person, a sinister form of bilocation.

Look up doppelganger or Doppelgänger in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

In the vernacular, the word "doppelgänger" has come to refer (as in German) to any double or look-alike of a person. The word is also used to describe the sensation of having glimpsed oneself in peripheral vision, in a position where there is no chance that it could have been a reflection. They are generally regarded as harbingers of bad luck. In some traditions, a doppelgänger seen by a person's friends or relatives portends illness or danger, while seeing one's own doppelgänger is an omen of death. In Norse mythology, a vardøger is a ghostly double who precedes a living person and is seen performing their actions in advance."
- From wikipedia article "Doppelganger" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppelganger)

Is GAOG Marilyn Manson's alter ego? (i.e. doppelganger, black/white face)

http://www.nachtkabarett.com/babalon/topic/2938--Synesthesia

"Some authors, in particular Sadi Ranson, have suggested Carroll may have suffered from temporal lobe epilepsy in which consciousness is not always completely lost, but altered, and in which the symptoms mimic many of the same experiences as Alice in Wonderland. Note that Carroll had at least one incidence in which he suffered full loss of consciousness and awoke with a bloody nose, which he recorded in his diary and noted that the episode left him not feeling himself for "quite sometime afterward". This attack was diagnosed as possibly "epileptiform" and Carroll himself later wrote of his "SEIZURES" in the same diary."

Everyone remember the Celebritatian "seizure" of mm.com?

Perhaps GAOG is one of Manson's "seizures" , an alternate state of conciousness within his mind.

Just my theory everyone feel free to expand upon it and give your opinion.


I'm sorry but that is not your theory. I wrote that months ago and would be happy to find the exact post.

Arch Dandy
12-25-2009, 08:49 PM
Please do i mean no disrespect but i dont recall you posting this. If you did then feel free to remove this thread my apologies.

[god]speed
12-25-2009, 08:53 PM
You linked to the thread I wrote it in... :P
I was speaking of the SEIZURE part. not the Doppelganger/ GOAG episode.



I read quite some time ago that Synesthesia often occurs in people that experience Temporal Lobe Epileptic SEIZURE(s), Which Links to Lewis Carroll.
http://www.nachtkabarett.com/ihvh/img/nk_transformation1_head_092804.jpg

Some authors, in particular Sadi Ranson, have suggested Carroll may have suffered from temporal lobe epilepsy in which consciousness is not always completely lost, but altered, and in which the symptoms mimic many of the same experiences as Alice in Wonderland. Note that Carroll had at least one incidence in which he suffered full loss of consciousness and awoke with a bloody nose, which he recorded in his diary and noted that the episode left him not feeling himself for "quite sometime afterward". This attack was diagnosed as possibly "epileptiform" and Carroll himself later wrote of his "SEIZURES" in the same diary.

Manson's Bloodied Nose as it appeared during the Celebritarian SEIZURE incarnation of MM.com
It is interesting that Carroll states he was not feeling like himself, for "Quite some time, afterwards" as the same could and has been said about Manson from his own mouth, I can't recall the exact wording from the Interview with MansonUSA, But it was something along the lines of "I didn't know who I was for a period of time" or something of that nature, I have high lighted Seizures, due to the play on words that Manson is so fond of, In one sense a epileptic seizure whereas the same word denotes...

http://www.nachtkabarett.com/ihvh/img/nktrans26.jpg
Image Courtesy of Nick Kushner


I am not positive, if I am a synesthete myself, But I "feel" emotions as colours. Intense, passionate feelings such as love or anger are characterized in my mind as Reds and bright pink, Calm and soothing feelings such as relaxation and comfort are Blues, fears and anxiety are a neon green. While sadness is a "black" that is made of all the colours. Very Profound experiences glow a burning white though the white consists of blinding reds and blues together, almost as if they are burning. They are somewhat pixelated, more like an ethereal sort of atom or something.




"It is imagination that first taught man the moral meaning of color, of contour, of sound, and of scent. In the beginning of the world it created analogy and metaphor."
—Charles Baudelaire

Arch Dandy
12-25-2009, 08:57 PM
Yes I did but that quote i posted (from that thread) is available on the internet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Caroll#Migraine_and_epilepsy

[god]speed
12-25-2009, 08:58 PM
"A doppelgänger ( pronunciation (help·info)) is the ghostly double of a living person, a sinister form of bilocation.

Look up doppelganger or Doppelgänger in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

In the vernacular, the word "doppelgänger" has come to refer (as in German) to any double or look-alike of a person. The word is also used to describe the sensation of having glimpsed oneself in peripheral vision, in a position where there is no chance that it could have been a reflection. They are generally regarded as harbingers of bad luck. In some traditions, a doppelgänger seen by a person's friends or relatives portends illness or danger, while seeing one's own doppelgänger is an omen of death. In Norse mythology, a vardøger is a ghostly double who precedes a living person and is seen performing their actions in advance."
- From wikipedia article "Doppelganger" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppelganger)

Is GAOG Marilyn Manson's alter ego? (i.e. doppelganger, black/white face)

Sorry mere misunderstanding on my part, all apologies.

To elaborate on your theory.... It is (s)AINT where the SEIZURE occurs, which was the first image of the Celebritarian Incarnation of MM.com
Also the 'Altar of My Ego' appears on Spade , Which links to the draining of the heart as demonstrated in the lyrics of the title track of EAT ME, DRINK ME. "I've heard she hangs the headless upside down to drain."

Arch Dandy
12-25-2009, 08:59 PM
I'm sorry for causing the mix up i should have creddited that quote to you in the first place. And the alter of my ego in spade is where i first thought of it. Also the doppelganger article was an interesting point to the theory.

21Faces
12-26-2009, 02:29 AM
I seem to recall Manson mentioning that GAOG reflected more of "who he really was" in terms of... I suppose his identity as an artist? than any other album he'd done thus far- basically Manson's crystalization of his cultural identity completely independent of the (tryptich) themes, imagery, and characters that had defined him for so long to that point.

So even though Arch Dandy is supposed to be a character, I wouldn't call him a doppelganger in the sense of it being an alternate identity, or GAOG being an alternate reality for Manson. He also said that GAOG was "about relationships," not just in a romantic sense, but regarding the relationship "between chaos and order." And of course when you're talking about doppelgangers and GAOG, you make me think of Doppelherz, which I understand to mean "two hearts," or "two-hearted," if you like. So in that sense if you're talking about the white and black-faced Manson... I'd say those two figures are components of the entire GAOG "universe" embodying the converse relationships of high and low art, fascism and rebellion, etc.

As far as the website image of Manson's bloodied nose... I always got a sense of that suggesting "the party is over." The image being one of the most striking from the (s)AINT video, the party being the bombast of GAOG, and the Celebritarian website marking a decidedly more austere phase in Manson's presentation and identity. I do not believe it to be coincidental that Manson decided to use the (s)AINT video to show himself "at [his] lowest" in the depths of depravity and self-destruction, and immediately follow that up by a cover of Personal Jesus accompanied by a much more polished and refined image. So I understood the use of the image of Manson's bloodied face to create a sharp contrast illustrating what he was leaving behind, basically.

What's interesting now, in retrospect, is that the CC "era" (aside from the website) was pretty much just Manson talking about moving past (or away from) music in favor of other mediums- painting, film, etc, and being photographed at red carpet after fashion show after red carpet ad nauseam. We all know after this period ended, Manson would boil the whole thing down to Dita trying to change who he was and him almost giving up music as a result. So what's interesting to me is the use of the word seizure by the CC. Maybe even then... as Manson was trying to parlay the implications of his marriage/relationship on his career as a rock star and forge a new path for himself, the word "seizure" (on some level, conscious or not) was selected to suggest a loss of control on his own part?

So I guess I see Arch Dandy/GAOG as the "real" Manson, not a dream or alter ego. And the word "seizure" during the introduction to the new site to be understood literally, rather than as an allusion to a medical event, suggesting Manson's loss- voluntary, coerced, whatever- of "the old." I suppose that makes my understanding the opposite of yours, but that's why Manson is such an interesting artist, I guess.

Arch Dandy
12-26-2009, 07:22 AM
It very well could be the real Manson. But I do believe that Manson doesn't tell us everything about each album (i.e. concept of it); i think he leaves a little room for us to dig.

spaceSuicide
12-27-2009, 07:55 PM
I've been listening to this album a lot more recently so I shall post here.

I seem to think that the album revolves around Manon's own art and the changing popular culture around him. Lots of vices and references of older times interlink with ones of the present time (as of 2003) in an alternate, ugly metaphor - grotesque if you will.

I seem to find Manson's journal entries up until the album's release to be very insightful and very subtle in wording. It still offered great depth as far as themes and an overall concept. I still find it an exit from past works, ACSS, MA, HW, but also similar in a sense of details and a story.

Talk of degenrate art is also a key point. The Nazis shunned artwork that depicted false and often surreal styles within them; not too differently than what people said of Manson's music around times of protest and Columbine. Just a thought.

I find the album's most important tracks to most themes or concepts are found within Doll-Dagga Buzz-Buzz Ziggety-Zag and the title track.

The mention of doppelgangers is evident. Perhaps mention of doppelgangers is in relation to copy of one self. I remember once hearing doppelganger is in relation to an imperfect, yet extremely similar copy. Perhaps Manson seen that within himself and the culture around him, as of 2003. Further proof could equal into imagery of black/white face.

I ramble and digress, just a thought.

Tear my post apart people. :p

Arch Dandy
12-27-2009, 08:10 PM
You have a very good theory. What does everyone think of the theory that all of Manson's albums are one story?

Elizabeth Casto
11-26-2014, 01:38 PM
I can see each one being an extension of another.
However I feel POAF is more a first/easy (e) reader.
I do not feel it has any real development to the story.
I also do not adhere to the idea of the triptych that is the most bullshit idea ever. Its backwards....whatever.
They are like chapters, obviously, since they come from the same brain.
I feel like there is a break in there. I just cannot place the exact location. And at the break the POV changes.
but I take heavy drugs so nothing i say is real.

Manson15Marilyn
04-20-2016, 10:59 AM
I tend to pile Doppelherz in with the golden age of grotesque, and what I got from it all it that it marked the end of the Marilyn Manson era and the beginning of a new one. The theatric-themed shows and lyrics seem to be somewhat of a parody of what Marilyn Manson had become up to that point. Kind of how mechanical animals was a parody of the antichrist superstar. Only I think this one is more an overall piece about Marilyn Manson. Marilyn Manson, in this album, is only here to entertain. But as Doppelherz says, this era is the last we hear from Marilyn Manson.

The Overman
09-04-2016, 02:55 PM
I see stronger parallels between Portrait and GAOG than any other Manson record. Both are running commentaries on American civilization as he found it at the time without also being coherent narratives. And both share a similar sense of entertainment and playfulness that something like Holy Wood doesn't possess.