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S.D.
01-05-2010, 09:35 AM
I was planning to submit an essay to the main site today, one focusing on the Celebritarian Doublecross that I wrote a few months ago, and also as a mark of what the date is, but last night I decided against it. I think at the moment, whilst there is room for discussion, there might be somewhat less of a place for extended analysis, and looking over what I had written, I don't think my thoughts would have been received in the same way they were intended, so perhaps it's for the best.

That said, there is something I felt like sharing from what I had written, which I chatted about with [god]speed and also Norsefire recently, and which is also relevant to the banner you'll see at the top of the forum. The rank I designed for post counts called "Stigmartyr" is culled from the line "They always eat the hand that bleeds" in Astonishing Panorama Of The Endtimes. Bleeding hands will occur following Stigmata, and so the term was used in its altered form. Anyway, those hands show plasters covering Stigmata, taken from both the Personal Jesus video, and Manson's multimedia artwork For God So Loved The World That He Gave His Only Begotten Son. For those unfamiliar with the painting, MansonWiki has it in their archive:-

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Also, imagery from the Personal Jesus (http://www.providermodule.com/videography/pj.html#) video, as mentioned:-

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The observation I made, is that as I am sure is fairly obvious, having two holes patched up with two crosses means you're looking at a Doublecross. The Doublecross is then also present in our forum banner. A small, though nonetheless interesting detail, I hope people enjoy it. It seems frowned upon of late, but the supposition I would then normally go on to make is that if by Manson's own tongue "the hole is where the heart is", and "the heart guides the hand", then the Doublecrossed Stigmata is perhaps also a representation of "Doppelherz". Personal Jesus was of course, mixed at the Doppelherz Blood Treatment Facility, so perhaps it was entirely intentional.

Not Mechanical
01-05-2010, 10:11 AM
Reading this thread made me think, in reference to the Double Cross and stigmata, the way that Jesus was 'doublecrossed' by Judas, leading of course to his capture by Romans and his Crucifixion.

Of course, stigmata can occur not just on the hands, but other areas Jesus was wounded during his crucifixion, for example the chest...
http://www.providermodule.com/discography/images/disc_mainth_hw.jpg

The Empress
01-05-2010, 03:35 PM
I posted this reply in the Album #8 thread, not sure if you saw it... A certain member of the forum said I was 'Over analyzing, baby' !!
So I've posted it here, as I believe this is a more appropraite area for such analysis.

S.D. - You requested any info on this:
The Greek letters, representing Christ are X and P - these are X (pronounced Hee) and P is actually the Greek R letter (pronouced Rho). They are the first 2 letters of Christos Ch, R. They are often used to represent Christ in Greek icons and other religious imagery.
http://www.castorchurch.co.uk/OldWebSite/castor_church_notes_and_pics/chi_rho/chi_rho.gif
( This image also incorporates the Alpha & Omega symbols.)

The X and P were used on the cover of the vinyl single of Personal Jesus, appropriately enough...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/73/Marilyn_manson_personal_jesus.jpg

-<me>-
01-11-2010, 07:17 AM
The observation I made, is that as I am sure is fairly obvious, having two holes patched up with two crosses means you're looking at a Doublecross. The Doublecross is then also present in our forum banner. A small, though nonetheless interesting detail, I hope people enjoy it.



That never occured to me, but its plain as day now that you've mentioned :)

Thelema
01-12-2010, 12:01 AM
On the subject of the double cross, I thought Iíd make mention of a ring found in the 1940ís beside the River Thame in Oxfordshire said to be from around the 14th century. Itís both similar to the Cross of Lorraine, and Mansonís more symmetrical Double Cross, and bares a slight resemblance to the Celebritarian ring(s) Manson wears, which appears to be slightly dissimilar from the ones he gives out, as seen in the photograph Perou took of his own.
Thame Ring
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/1048/thamereliquaryring2.jpg

S.D.
01-12-2010, 03:10 PM
Thelema, do you have any further information regarding the ring? I am intrigued. Fantastic find though, thank you for posting. Also, in relation to The Empress' image, Christograms I find interesting, because although it's not specifically related, the mistake is often made of mixing the Dollar symbol up with the IHS (initials of Christ, derived from Greek) emblem found on some archaic gravestones. Okay, so it may be tenuous, but nice to note in correlation with the use of the Dollar sign on The High End Of Low. Here is a picture of a Christogram gravestone, which was actually photographed and sent to me from a cemetery in my former home-city of Brighton:-


http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp112/providermodule/Analysis/christogram.jpg


It is often seen as a Dollar sign to the untrained eye, as the IHS is carved interwoven, making it appear that it is an 'S' with several bars across it, as Dollars are sometimes scribed.
Closer to home perhaps, anyone who followed the Provider Module teaser process before launch may recall the use of Charlie Chaplin depicting Hynkel in The Great Dictator in "Create Evil On Canvas", the second one we submitted. Watch it again here if you wish: http://www.providermodule.com/oo.html (http://www.providermodule.com/forum/../oo.html) And this is the image used:-


http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp112/providermodule/Analysis/Hynkel.jpg


You'll note the two crosses replacing the Swastika on Chaplin's spoof of Adolf Hitler. Chaplin, as an alliterative kindred spirit of Manson's, and named as an influence, was equal part egotist and philanderer, his penchant for "young" girls landing him in significant trouble and resulting in Hollywood notoriety. Certainly he is a figure to whom Manson stands parallel, and so the image of two crosses being used surprises me none. The XX was also, ironically, a crucial emblem of British victory in the Second World War, as it represented the faction of eternally brave Double Agents that operated abroad (chiefly in Germany, infiltrating the German Secret Service). The organisation was controlled and directed by MI5 (M15...?). I wrote this in a thread entitled 'Peter Lorre' should anyone be interested in reading it, but the Doublecross as the Cross Of Lorraine was also the symbol of the Free French during the Second World War, a liberation arm of the French military. This medal shows the symbol in use (image courtesy of North East Medals):-


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Tangetial once again, but perhaps it is worth noting that the Antichrist Shock Symbol and the Doublecross are both comprised of an equal sum of parts. The lightning flash of the Shock Symbol is three lines created the downward "S", and the Doublecross is three lines, two placed over the longest central line. Three is an important number in the Manson canon, especially in relation to Antichrist Superstar as Manson himself enthused, so the mythology is self reflecting even in that one image. If you look at the cover for The Long Hard Road Out Of Hell, you can see the threeway of the Shock Symbol placed over the tri-sected chapter list of the book:-



http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp112/providermodule/Analysis/LongHardRoad.jpg


The diagram clearly shows each point of the Shock Symbol meeting the respective tier of the chapters. Also, as an aside, I like that in keeping with the Mechanical Animals symbology that would later emerge, the first tier has the 1 prefacing the first 5 chapters (characterised as O O O O O), creating 15. Disintegrator Rising (including the fifteenth track, The Reflecting God) on Antichrist Superstar, as the final section of the record, also features five "sections", and is labelled Cycle III, thus 15 emerges again; 3x5.

Thelema
01-13-2010, 08:00 AM
^ My pleasure! Here’s a link to a good majority of the information you’ll find on the ring:
http://www.thamehistory.net/topics/ThameHoard.htm

I like that they make mention of the double cross showing a Byzantine influence.
Wiki mentioned that the double cross appeared in the Byzantine Empire*in large numbers in the 9th century, and mentioned it was not a religious symbol, but a political one used by clerks and missionaries; Although at this point the article lacks any proper citation in regards to said facts, you’ll note that the flag of the late empire contains a fairly symmetrical double cross.

S.D.
01-14-2010, 06:09 PM
Thank you once more, that made for interesting reading, specifically the detail (confirmed on the Thame Town website: Thame Town Emblem (http://www.thametowncouncil.gov.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=317&Itemid=84)) about there being ten coins and five rings discovered in the original hoard containing the Doublecross ring. So altogether, fifteen items... I can understand entirely the serendipitous reasoning for choosing an otherwise unrelated (besides location obviously) insignia for the town as well, given the partnering of T T in the town's name, it is the Doublecross once more. I digress, but here is the crest, for perusal:-


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It is never possible to know if Manson is aware of these nuances, and I don't think he would state as much even if he were, but it's enjoyable to unearth and learn more about a symbol many of us were probably unfamiliar with on a wider scale before his usage of it. And coincidence prevails, it states both in Thelema's informative link, and at the Thame Town website, that the ring was secular, relating the symbol to a separation from Church. I am reminded of the "choice" titles and inconsistencies in the Celebritarian Goods & Services, discussed and detailed in the following posts:- Goods & Services #1 (http://www.providermodule.com/forum/showthread.php?1364-Celebritarian-A-Discussion&p=47394&viewfull=1) / Goods & Services #2 (http://www.providermodule.com/forum/showthread.php?1364-Celebritarian-A-Discussion&p=47415&viewfull=1)

For the purposes of discussion, this perhaps raises the issue of god and State in relation to the Doublecross (specifically its Celebritarian incarnation and Holy Wood). In America at least, political commentary is often combined with "dogma", as is money - ["In God We Trust"] - and symbols are proliferated, exaggerated and exploited in order to control people. Perhaps the Celebritarian Doublecross is a reflection of this, the "double crucifixion" of the people who subscribe to it? --- "I sell my shadow to those who are standing in it" --- This seems to reflect Manson's description of Celebritarianism as something that would [paraphrased] "catch fire when you opened it and burn your hands because you deserve it for reading". Is it a Doublecross because those who subscribe consider it to be an emblem of undiluted art, or is it representative of a "revolution" sold to an audience who don't realise the snake will always devour its own tail? The rigid and allegedly irrefutable "word of god" found in religion is by definition, incongruous with the apparent shift in "agenda" and "vote" system of Western politics. In essence they are exactly the same. Religion has always altered its definiton of faith in order to control people, whilst politics has always created a facade of "change" in order to make sure things don't deviate. It's a binary of utter hypocrisy, and I think the Celebritarian Doublecross is supposed to reflect as much.