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Shangri-LIE
11-24-2010, 12:10 AM
Do you love your two headed pictographical sites where everything is pointed out for you? Do you love pouring over information that you find "awesome" but never contribute anything but pretty photos and jokes towards? What ever happened to us being mentally challenging instead of mentally challenged? When did we become so complacent that we are happy with smart ass know it alls pointing out coincidences, who monopolize the thinking caps of the forums by pointing out things that just make us go "oh, neat. MM FUCKIN RULES!!1!!5!!"?

The point is kids ... you need to do more digging, and LAYING things OUT on your own. Get back into the mysteries. Get back into saying fuck you to all of the smart asses, and not being intimidated by WALLS upon WALLS of one sided testimonials. If you don't, we'll atrophy.

Fuck the sun gods.

VelvetAIDS
11-24-2010, 12:18 AM
You've said it well.

"What ever happened to us being mentally challenging instead of mentally challenged?"

Sink that into your heads. Wake up people. Don't sit back and let S.D. or someone else do all the work for you. Research. Discover. Learn. It's what Manson always wanted you guys to do. It's about time you do it.


I personally wish...the stereotype of a manson fan would change from mallgawth to an intellectual

The Empirical Guy
11-24-2010, 02:05 AM
You're damn right.

I was having this discussion with Dysmorphia just the other day. There are some people who have this idea, which is propagated by... certain places on the internet, to take everything so damn literal or at face value. When I first got in to Manson and discovered various forums and sites, there was much about the "story" of the triptych: a boy wants to be a part of something, rebellion, becomes product, alien comes to earth, worm in to Antichrist... all those same old lines we've all heard a hundred times. When you're new to Manson, it's easy to take that and look at it as a linear, novel-type story told to music. As I read more, and most importantly listened more though, I saw what were, to me, flaws in the idea and began to develop my own interpretation, until now I virtually discount the "story" idea completely.

As for visual connections and similarities, I appreciate the extensive thread here, but again I feel some simply take it at a face value. If I see Manson is directing our attention towards something, I don't just go "cool he got this from that", I want to know why he feels we should pay attention to it. What exactly is he trying to say by making these connections? Too many people miss the point in that, I think.

VelvetAIDS
11-25-2010, 03:09 PM
77 views and 2 responses... *bashes brains in*

Hexon.Arq
11-25-2010, 03:13 PM
People used to have this tirade all the time on the anime forums I used to frequent. The responses usually came in the form of, "I'm just not as obsessed as you are." I think that covers it pretty well for some. Do what thou wilt.

KnaveMurdok
11-26-2010, 02:04 AM
This is not a phase, mom! This is my life!!!!

slappyDUMMY
11-27-2010, 09:02 PM
I just started inejoying it. I racked by brain on it for years. I don't think there is much more to learn. Quiz me!

Shangri-LIE
11-27-2010, 09:06 PM
I just started inejoying it. I racked by brain on it for years. I don't think there is much more to learn. Quiz me!

Sarcasm killed the slappyCAT

S.D.
11-28-2010, 04:49 AM
I'm uncomfortable with how my name is mentioned here. Being interested in the esotericisms of your favourite musician isn't some retarded loophole into the Fourth Dimension for me, it's just fun and I like to share thoughts, and hopefully create discussion by doing so. I'm not interested in accolades or whatever, there's a reason I use an abbreviated pseudonym and don't talk about my personal life very often. Similarly, I'm not sure about other sites or persons, but I don't observe a lot of "ass-kissing" going on either, so I'm unsure what this refers to? If anything Provider Module and its staff have had to vocally stick up for the project on more than one occasion, which is a shame when you're doing nothing more than expressing fan enthusiasm through a website.

I'm aware that overall, online Marilyn Manson fandom is not as vibrant and busy a congregation as it once was with a site like MansonUSA, and that is sad if it's to the detriment of friendship and communal activity, but it's only ever lethargy that negates healthy conversation. I don't think this website is "infamous", and I don't know why anyone would say so, but if there is a perceived lack of participation between users and friends, then belittling people and telling them they're wrong for not contributing more isn't really the best way to change that around. There are plenty of topics for people to add to, read, consider, and create afresh here, but a forum is not the be-all-and-end-all of a website, and that's perhaps where the focus of somewhere like MansonUSA went awry at times. It's similar with The Nachtkabarett, which is always a fantastic site, but the majority of Babalon's forum users don't frequent or discuss the material there, so you're asking a lot of changing people, rather than just bumping up some forum posts.

So generally, I'm not sure what this topic is saying other than the author (who I don't see contributing a vast amount) thinks Manson fandom has gotten quiet. We all know that, and it's always like this in one form or another between albums. The larger issue is that some fans don't know what's good when they've got it, because they're too busy complaining about other stuff. In the last year we've had regular news from Manson every month, with public appearances, talk about a new record, music videos thought lost for over a decade, photoshoots, TV shows, interviews, and plenty of things happening in the personal lives of all the fans as well. If people don't want to discuss all this anymore, then that's their prerogative, you can't force it.
I miss seeing all our mutual friends as well, and so hopefully those that already haven't will stop by again and we can catch up and reminisce. Let's also hope that Manson's forthcoming album creates new fans as well, seeing fresh faces is always exciting and fun.

Anyway, reading here and a few other places, I'm sorry if anyone thinks the staff here are quiet, we all work jobs, have private lives, and it's currently a busy time of year. With that said, maybe it will please users to know that between Norsefire, Cringeon, and yours truly, we're developing some huge new areas to this website, we just don't talk about it much because it's nice to surprise people, like we did this time last year...
I'm fucking excited to share this with everyone, just as we always are when we update, and I hope the things we debuted recently are still being read/enjoyed also. If you want to talk Manson stuff, it's not like we don't provide (see what I did there?) it.
There are some good responses here though, and as ever, if there's something people would like from us, or something you think the site and Manson fan groups overall should be doing more of, then just say so, chances are we've got it pencilled in for the future anyway.

Norsefire
11-28-2010, 10:20 AM
To the original post, everyone is different. Some people like to contribute more than others, some like to go more in depth than others. Some people like to just read forums and never post on them. That's how it is and how it always will be, I don't think complaining about people is going to solve anything.

Shangri-LIE
11-28-2010, 12:31 PM
Obviously, it is effective to lambaste people because I finally got a reaction out of the people that I wanted to. Asides from that, here is my point..

I competley encourage the staff here to KEEP progressing with this site and making is as awesome as possible, and it is an awesome site. However, I have noticed that no MATTER how much gets developed, or brought up for discussion, the majority just end up skimming over things. It pisses me off, and to the developers of not just this site, it should piss you guys off as well. It's almost passive agressive to continue to build something only to vindicate the dormancy of a sites population and keep making more and more improvements. Improvements for what? Just come out and say it. That is what I do, and that is what I am talking about here. As far as me not contributing much, that is a fucking lie and you know it. Seriously, you can go through most threads in the Analysis section and I am in there discussing things that are being looked at, and also in the MM section/News section. You might want to recant that statement. I haven't contributed a vast amount? What the fuck ever.

ThreeEyedGod
11-28-2010, 08:04 PM
I'm not a big contributor, but honest attempts I have made in the past to generate some interesting Manson conversation have gone by largely unnoticed. Instead we have two Lady Gaga threads almost filled to the brim(oops). The comment isn't so much a criticism as it is an observation; the glory days are gone, folks. But hey, Manson still has a strong following and will always have a strong following, it's just that the tides are shallow these days.

Cringeon
11-28-2010, 08:50 PM
I've been online on MM sites for a decade now, and it always goes in cycles. Whenever an album comes out, or the band is out on tour - discussion is much more active than in the "off season". That said, it doesn't bother me at all. All of us here at Provider Module have wanted to make a site out of love of the band, and to do so according to our own pace, and standards and style. Of course, I'd love to see the multitudes all getting waist deep in MM - but truth is, that level of fandom isn't for everyone.

We have many people here who are more casual fans, but that's in no way to say they are any less of a fan. There are people who are fans of mainly the music, or mainly the visual side, or maybe even just his side-projects more than the actual band. The point is - why we all come here does not matter, but the truth remains it's because we are all fans.

We're all bright individuals - and really if there was a discussion that really caught people's interests than I'm sure it would be active. Not everyone likes to hold the same conversation - and to a point sometimes it can become the same discussion over and over again. What I do like is, that even though MM might not be in the news right now, we all carry on conversations quite actively everywhere on the forum. People getting to know each other, share interests, talk news, other music, share their arts, etc.

Shangri-LIE
11-28-2010, 09:23 PM
Yeah, that's true Cringeon. Absolutely. A love of the band. Except for those that either love the idea of the band, unless that idea turns into a reality and horrifically "penetrates" someone too close to home and they decides to disown that "idea", or if people are just fashion clingers. It doesn't matter. There is no OFF SEASON. Joining a forum shouldn't be just for the sake of it, or just to feel like a part of something. If you come here frequently, fucking contribute something. It isn't hard. It isn't. This is a cultic band and there should be a lot more offerings in the collection plate, so to speak. I am holding people to that "love". I don't care anymore. Call me an asshole. I'm just not afraid to say it.

Edit - for S.D. to say that I haven't contribute a "vast" amount of anything is bullshit. Once again, I just had to reiterate that.

VelvetAIDS
11-28-2010, 11:06 PM
5 days pass since this topic started. No one really gave a shit until S.D. gets slightly butt-hurt...really? Enough passive-aggressiveness.

Yes, people have lives, people get distracted but the thing is people are fucking LAZY. That was the point of this in the first place. It used to be like a scavenger hunt. 'THISS MUST BE SOLVVED' Anyone? It seems as if when we "killed art" with 'Lest We Forget' we also killed ourselves mentally. Just because an era doesn't seem as 'stimulating' as the triptych (which is to say we still haven't dug up past the 'crust' of it) does not mean there are many MANY more things to it.

'THISS CAN BE SOLVVED' if we just get off our fucking asses.

Dysmorphia
11-29-2010, 12:02 AM
I have not previously responded to this thread as I feel everything I would say has been said. I agree with the Empirical Guy with regards to his comments on the Visual Parallels thread, that more attention needs to be paid as to the why a particular aesthetic has been employed than just pointing out the connection. I also encourage people to form their own opinions.

Personally, I post in the analysis threads whenever I feel I can make some positive contribution, some connection or comment that has not been raised before. A majority of the time I read other people’s theories and responses to them, is there such a problem with that?
I totally support Norsefire’s remark in that some people like to just read forums and never post on them. I am sure some people wouldn’t feel comfortable posting their thoughts and opinions, and by intimidating them in this way, it certainly is not making it any easier for them.

The Empirical Guy
11-29-2010, 01:09 AM
Someone has to say it, but I really think this is nothing more than a troll thread aimed at airing grievances, so frankly I'm hesitant to post any more here. I think personal attacks and bickerings are more than a little unnecessary, for one thing.

If you want to know why I don't contribute much, it's because when I have done so in the past, they have often gone unnoticed and without replies, or with only the most basic of acknowledgments. But that's fine by me, I don't really care. If I come up with something that I feel is worth sharing, I'll post it. People can read it and incorporate it in to their own knowledge. If that causes them to, in turn, have something worthwhile, they can post it and the cycle continues. If not, then whatever, I don't care. It's just something for people to think about. In truth there are dozens of little things I could post all the time, but I don't due to my already expressed opinion that there should be some reason behind the fact, not just a "shape association" type game. I also freely admit that oft times, I'm too lazy, distracted or busy to type out what I usually form in to long-winded responses that cover what I know other people will say much more concisely.

As far as the reading and not posting goes, I don't see the problem with it. In fact, I find it odd as the usual request is the exact opposite of what you are proposing. You must lurk moar. It is never enough.

S.D.
11-29-2010, 02:38 AM
Obviously, it is effective to lambaste people because I finally got a reaction out of the people that I wanted to.
A better question; why would you want to sign onto the internet to bait anyone anyway? Is the fact that it's an amazing worldwide communication tool not enough? I don't understand this persistent need for conflict and one-upmanship some people get stuck into.


I competley encourage the staff here to KEEP progressing with this site and making is as awesome as possible, and it is an awesome site. However, I have noticed that no MATTER how much gets developed, or brought up for discussion, the majority just end up skimming over things.
That is what majorities do, it is in their nature. There are libraries in every Westernised town or city on this planet, but you don't see everyone and their mother sat in them reading every day simply because the content they hold is good. The second contributors or creators of any resource start expecting quota numbers or pester people to join up and add more is when you're into desperate territory and the work suffers. I'm happier to do the work I want to do here silently, put it out there and then if people enjoy it, jolly good. If that quantity of people is less or more than someone else expects, it doesn't affect the work I did, or the design Norsefire does, or the upkeep Cringeon pays, so it's not something for us to lose sleep over.


Improvements for what? Just come out and say it.
This is an art resource for our favourite band, and not nearly everything that can be written or should be written about that band has been yet, and so it gets improved when more ground is covered and more things are said.
The thing you're saying doesn't happen very often on a forum, which is only one facet of this website, is what we are sat patiently making happen on all the other areas of the place. Manson news, Manson content, Manson theory, Manson imagery, it's all coming, ready to be fed into a site that hasn't even filled 10% of its full potential yet. Provider Module might look nice and offer the basics, but as either of the other guys will tell you, the gameplan for the site as set out in October last year was waaaaaay bigger than what's available online now. There's no rush for that though, Marilyn Manson isn't going anywhere and so neither should his fansites, there's already been quite enough of that.


As far as me not contributing much, that is a fucking lie and you know it.
For clarity's sake, I was trying to play along with the little game of you having dual-identities and posting under an assumed name. The lack of contribution was aimed a 'A DEVOURER OF GOD' (which I think everyone had figured out was your account by now anway), as opposed to Shangri-LIE, but sadly as the merge Cringeon decided on shows, the lines between what you wanted to get out of those two profiles had grown increasingly blurred.
With that in mind, I don't think your contribution as Shangri-LIE is lacking, I am glad we're not in the assumed identity game anymore, and yes I entirely agree that conversation is sometimes sparse and under-developed. But by the same token, it's still not up to us to force it. Instead of a probing, condescending topic, what's wrong with simply asking people why they don't feel the need to to say as much anymore, rather than telling them to? Like I said before, we all know the demise of The Heirophant messed a lot of things up, and regardless of whether it was Manson's prerogative, for a lot of people who like to communicate with others online, it wasn't received well. Babalon has plenty of forum users, but it's under-moderated and there's just as much spite there as was ever prevalent on The Phant, and in general the direction and atmosphere that was felt using MansonUSA is not around anymore. The other Manson sites and forums that were always online are either abandoned or under-used, and that's not something anyone has "decided" should happen, it's just the downside of a fanbase being split down the middle. And that's stupid in itself, because we're all on the same team really.

Anyway, that's my feelings on the matter, more or less, besides a little sadness that this is what the boards are being used for right now. And once again, I know exactly what you're all saying, whether it's here or anywhere, there is a lot of people's contribution that goes unnoticed, under-appreciated, and forgotten. Go and browse the Module Musicians forum, or the writing section, or Manson chat, Manson analysis, even the World Events section and there's plenty of unreplied topics that were left or no one cared about, and they're written by everyone, not just a handful.
I don't know what the secret to making people communicate with one another is, or how to shake things up in topics, but I don't think a muddled, invite to insult people sort of topic like this is the answer to that.

Emma
11-29-2010, 05:36 AM
Forums are an up and down thing - you force subjects and people don;t want to know, you let them play by themselves and they complain when they then feel the staff aren't doing enough - yet completely forgetting the site is a labor of love that has to be done around the rest of their lives. As has been said, forums are always quiet when the main subject matter - Manson - is currently on hiatus while he puts together the new album. Yes it is a shame that people fall back but I hardly think ti fair to then have a go at the staff for not doing enough - isn't this a community?

I stepped aside from the site partly because I could not give the time to it anymore - and I know the people who now run and own it have put hundreds of hours in to continue to build and expand - as has been said, the forum is only a part of. To be fair, it's the community that have to keep that going - the staff should not have to be posting new threads to generate interest.

I come here when I can, but my life has changed alot over the past year and I know a fair few other people's lives have too - but we can try and contribute when we can - it just isn;t always easy.

I know it can be frustrating to post athread and no one takes part - try and try and try again I say. It just seems unfair that instead of posting a thread that is an idea brain storm it has in some ways become finger pointing.

Since the Phant closed there has been a change in dynamic with the forums - and alot of people also stepped away - but I say have patience, I say patience is a virtue. Because once Manson gets a new album out - the interest will rise again - it is just the natural way.

A thread for exploring ideas, no problem, but was the thread to explore the ideas or to call people out? Because while no one wants asskissing, it feels like there's confrontation from the outset.

Just my two cents

ImNotJesus
11-29-2010, 07:52 AM
People will contribute heavily if they wish, whereas others will not.

Why does Manson fandom have to equate to extensive (sometimes over) analysis? What's wrong with just enjoying the music and stopping to shout some praise / criticism every now and then?

Cringeon
11-29-2010, 09:06 AM
Shangs - with all the energy you've put into this thread, you could have still been carrying on any number of topics actually meant at promoting discussion and analysis. The reason why I merged your Devourer account is because I don't feel you need to have an alter ego to say the things you did. It holds just as much validity if you kept it under your Shangs name. You kept telling me that you'd show your plans with it, but it honestly you really weren't doing anything grand with the Devourer name and i found it weird when you started replying to yourself. It has nothing to do with us being against you trying to stir up conversation. You have the same amount of power to do so as Shangs as anyone else.

The one thing I won't tolerate, is disrespect for the admins because we didn't find your "game" funny. Posting comments about "falcon hunting' and that you are going to be perceived as a threat is just bunk. It comes down to that I extended you some leeway by letting you make the Devourer account because you said you had big plans for it. "Three Days" you said, and some huge plan would be unveiled. Well, nothing happened. More whimper than a bang. And I just think the more you got outside of MM topics, and even started just replying to yourself it just seemed more as an account for your own self enjoyment rather than contributing anything of substance.

But as I said, not a word you said as Devourer would have been lessened under Shangs - so obviously you have the energy to do something, you just need to direct it. You can command the forum to become active, especially in the holiday season. From Thanksgiving to New Years - it's always been a quieter time of year. We all have lives, jobs, familys, some on vacation. This forum is only one part of the site, and I think it needs to be up to the members to be as involved as they want to be. Forcing people to be more active is only going to cause activity that is based on a feeling of "having to post" rather than "wanting to post" and I think the posts of substance come from those who share because of the latter.

Shangri-LIE
11-29-2010, 05:05 PM
Fair enough - Moving on.


"The Internet is a very powerful tool, but right now it's being handled by a lot of fools. And I think us together, Marilyn Manson as a whole, what we all stand for, should be the biggest spider on the web. I think that it will become our web. Not something that uses us, but something that we will control - Marilyn Manson"