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Golden Eel
02-12-2011, 06:50 PM
The zodiac thread made me decide to make this thread. I'm curious why people believe the things they do and interested in possibly changing their minds. So...

Which ones of you believe in alternative ideas, and why?

These would include:

- Religion/the Occult.
- Zodiac.
- Numerology.
- Homeopathy (acupuncture, Power Band bracelet, holistic herbs, etc.)
- Ghosts/souls (I know most people believe this and I'd be interested to discuss this one.)
- Anything else you can think of.

Please don't be timid and keep your ideas to yourself if you believe this stuff. Speak out!

EDIT: And I know some of these may not be alternative and sadly may actually be the status-quo, such as religion. But you get my point.

Shangri-LIE
02-12-2011, 07:04 PM
I am not much into astrology to be honest. However, I have seen ghosts. I have actually had two near death experiences. I do believe in a supreme entity, however I believe that whatever it is, it cannot be described by one secular denomination. I believe that each person has their own personal journey and whatever helps them get through life, no matter what it is, is a good thing. I believe that faith should be a private conquest towards enlightenment, and not practiced in designated places of worship. There's a lot that I can talk about. If you have any specific questions for me, feel free to ask. I'll be on here for a while.

VIDe
02-12-2011, 07:11 PM
and interested in possibly changing their minds.

Admirable, but it's not going to happen; trying to provoke debate on any of these subjects will only produce endless circular arguments. These beliefs exist outside logic, and generally only serve to fill a need people have for something mystical in their lives. Which is a shame, really, since the natural world is amazing enough as it is without all that hokum.

I can only hope that we, as a species, continue evolving, and these superstitions and the people who believe in them go the way of the dinosaurs. Namely, wiped out by an asteroid.

Golden Eel
02-12-2011, 07:18 PM
There's a lot that I can talk about. If you have any specific questions for me, feel free to ask. I'll be on here for a while.

Oh yes!


I am not much into astrology to be honest. However, I have seen ghosts.

First, you have seen ghosts. But think about this. I know you've gotten drunk before right? Done any drugs? If so, you'll know the profound effect that certain chemicals can have on the brain. The brain is a very delicate computer, any alterations will change the computations which changes how you feel and think, even if you don't notice the change. And with this utmost delicacy comes the fact that is very prone to malfunctions. Why do you believe (assuming this is what you believe. If not, correct me) that human spirits wandering all over the world fucking with people is more likely than believing that your brain had a temporary malfunction? I know for most people seeing is believing, but I can honestly say the brain has its ways of fooling you whether you want it too or not.


I have actually had two near death experiences. I do believe in a supreme entity, however I believe that whatever it is, it cannot be described by one secular denomination.

Why do you believe in a deity?


I believe that each person has their own personal journey and whatever helps them get through life, no matter what it is, is a good thing.

I agree.


I believe that faith should be a private conquest towards enlightenment, and not practiced in designated places of worship.

I disagree here. I think people should face the truth instead of hiding behind faith. Faith literally means believing in something without proof. That goes against everything I believe in. The truth is ugly, but it is still the truth and it is still there.

Elaborate on anything you'd like if I got something wrong and feel free to ask me anything, I could talk about these things for days.

Golden Eel
02-12-2011, 07:22 PM
Admirable, but it's not going to happen; trying to provoke debate on any of these subjects will only produce endless circular arguments. These beliefs exist outside logic, and generally only serve to fill a need people have for something mystical in their lives. Which is a shame, really, since the natural world is amazing enough as it is without all that hokum.

I can only hope that we, as a species, continue evolving, and these superstitions and the people who believe in them go the way of the dinosaurs. Namely, wiped out by an asteroid.

Harsh lol. I would generally agree, but as time goes on I realize how many people believe in things like this. I just think some people don't use the most straight-forward logic when deciding what to believe, I lot of emotion goes into it. I thought perhaps I might be able to reason someone out of at least one alternative idea. Even if I don't, I'm still interested to hear why some people believe what they believe.

Shangri-LIE
02-12-2011, 07:53 PM
First, you have seen ghosts. But think about this. I know you've gotten drunk before right? Done any drugs? If so, you'll know the profound effect that certain chemicals can have on the brain. The brain is a very delicate computer, any alterations will change the computations which changes how you feel and think, even if you don't notice the change. And with this utmost delicacy comes the fact that is very prone to malfunctions. Why do you believe (assuming this is what you believe. If not, correct me) that human spirits wandering all over the world fucking with people is more likely than believing that your brain had a temporary malfunction? I know for most people seeing is believing, but I can honestly say the brain has its ways of fooling you whether you want it too or not.


I have experimented with a lot of mind altering substances, as well as alcohol usage for a period that almost killed me. However, a lot of my experiences with the supernatrual come from when I was a child. When I was in the first grade I was asked to draw a picture of what I was afraid of, and I drew a clock that read "10:30". That being the name that I gave to a "ghost" that I used to talk to in my childhood home vestebule. He would talk to me through the lightbulb in the hallway and he would also pick me up out of my bed when I was sleeping. That's just one story. Before I even started using drugs, and drinking I've always been some sort of a magnet for stuff like that. My mother had a psychic come to our house one time also, and she tape recorded the reading. She told my mother that "her oldest son", me, was most affected by the energies in the house because I am a medium and will probably grow up being a "haunted person" which will lead to drug use and alcoholism until I learn to accept it and cope with it. I've also had experiences with extra terrestrials if you'd like to know about that? If you think I am bullshitting you, I have discussed it with quite a few people from here in private who can verify the details of the encounters that I've shared with them.


Why do you believe in a deity?

As I mentioned before, I've had two near death experiences. I remember fragments from time to time. Other than that, I can't quite be sure. It's just something that I embrace.


I disagree here. I think people should face the truth instead of hiding behind faith. Faith literally means believing in something without proof. That goes against everything I believe in. The truth is ugly, but it is still the truth and it is still there.

I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say that people should hide from any sort of truths. I just believe that people should seek their own personal paths, and not congregate in masses to worship. I believe that supplication of any kind should be done within the confines of your own home.

Golden Eel
02-12-2011, 08:31 PM
I have experimented with a lot of mind altering substances, as well as alcohol usage for a period that almost killed me. However, a lot of my experiences with the supernatrual come from when I was a child. When I was in the first grade I was asked to draw a picture of what I was afraid of, and I drew a clock that read "10:30". That being the name that I gave to a "ghost" that I used to talk to in my childhood home vestebule. He would talk to me through the lightbulb in the hallway and he would also pick me up out of my bed when I was sleeping. That's just one story. Before I even started using drugs, and drinking I've always been some sort of a magnet for stuff like that. My mother had a psychic come to our house one time also, and she tape recorded the reading. She told my mother that "her oldest son", me, was most affected by the energies in the house because I am a medium and will probably grow up being a "haunted person" which will lead to drug use and alcoholism until I learn to accept it and cope with it. I've also had experiences with extra terrestrials if you'd like to know about that? If you think I am bullshitting you, I have discussed it with quite a few people from here in private who can verify the details of the encounters that I've shared with them.

I believe you believe what you're saying 100%. I've heard far more absurd things from people.

I wasn't trying to imply drugs/alcohol were the cause of what you experienced. I was just trying to show a real world example that most people can grasp of how easily the brain can be influenced. The brain does hallucinate without you putting drugs or alcohol into it. Most of what you experience is a hallucination put together by all of the signals to your brain in a way you which benefits you evolutionarily. Sometimes the wires get crossed or miscommunicated.

There are people who offer psychics and mediums millions of dollars to prove any paranormal to be true, and no one has done it. These people prey off of the weak, and they make a lot of money to do it. Why can't a medium ask ghosts where they left hidden treasure? Why hasn't there ever been a single case of a murder solved by mediums, or even a single case of mediums finding a dead body?

I also find the fact that she said you would grow up to be a drug abuser or alcohol extremely insulting, and she didn't even say it to me. You wouldn't allow someone to come up to you and say that in the street without knowing you, hearing it from someone who claims to be able to sense your energy and whatnot is still very rude to me.

My question is this, why do you choose to believe in spirits and the paranormal when the far more realistic answer is that you were hallucinating? Don't take this negatively either, every one hallucinates. I have experienced some things you wouldn't believe. Most people just don't realize it and when they do, they refuse to believe the root of the issue is inside their head. So I'm not calling you crazy or anything, I'm calling anyone who has a functioning brain crazy in a way.


As I mentioned before, I've had two near death experiences. I remember fragments from time to time. Other than that, I can't quite be sure. It's just something that I embrace.

Have you ever heard of DMT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine)? It's a chemical produced in your brain which makes you dream. It can also be synthesized and smoked as well, it's one of the most intense hallucinogens known. Well supposedly when you die, or when your brain senses you're about too, massive amounts of DMT get released into the brain.

I'm not sure the details of yours, but I was watching people explain their near death experiences and I'll be damned if what all of them were describing were exactly how people described when they were tripping on DMT. This includes speaking to a deity. Most people said it was God because of the immense happiness and complacency they felt. But that's also what DMT trippers experience.

Either way, what is your relationship to this deity? Does it convene in peoples' lives or just observe? Is there an opposite figure to is, such as a satan? Do you believe it set the universe in motion or is it a byproduct of the universe, aka an alien species or something.


I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say that people should hide from any sort of truths. I just believe that people should seek their own personal paths, and not congregate in masses to worship. I believe that supplication of any kind should be done within the confines of your own home.

I agree about not pursuing faith in public, but I go one step forward. I think faith should never be pursued, ever. Faith literally is hiding from logic. Having faith in anything is illogical and should not be done.

ThreeEyedGod
02-12-2011, 08:48 PM
I went from an ardent atheist to a believer in the Abrahamic God. I also believe that if I had to choose, I would say Islam makes the most theological sense.

I also believe in alien beings from beyond and evil forces.

Golden Eel
02-12-2011, 08:52 PM
I went from an ardent atheist to a believer in the Abrahamic God.

What brought this on?


I also believe that if I had to choose, I would say Islam makes the most theological sense.

Oxymoron.


I also believe in alien beings from beyond and evil forces.

From beyond...? Beyond where?

Evil forces? Evil is a human concept though, so are these forces human?

Explain please, if you have time.

Shangri-LIE
02-12-2011, 09:27 PM
I wasn't trying to imply drugs/alcohol were the cause of what you experienced. I was just trying to show a real world example that most people can grasp of how easily the brain can be influenced. The brain does hallucinate without you putting drugs or alcohol into it. Most of what you experience is a hallucination put together by all of the signals to your brain in a way you which benefits you evolutionarily. Sometimes the wires get crossed or miscommunicated.

My question is this, why do you choose to believe in spirits and the paranormal when the far more realistic answer is that you were hallucinating? Don't take this negatively either, every one hallucinates. I have experienced some things you wouldn't believe. Most people just don't realize it and when they do, they refuse to believe the root of the issue is inside their head. So I'm not calling you crazy or anything, I'm calling anyone who has a functioning brain crazy in a way.

I don't choose to believe in them. I understand that you are trying to dilineate reality from some sort of projection of the mind. However, science itself is not even a definite. It constantly changes. Logic itself even is subjective, and transitive from one perspective to another. There are a lot of things that can't be explained. However if you take in to consideration, for instance Fatima, if you've ever heard of that, where people ...crowds of people who all witness the exact same apparitions collectivley. Then you might find that tougher to refute than somone claiming that they saw The Virgin Mary on a pancake.




Have you ever heard of DMT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine)? It's a chemical produced in your brain which makes you dream. It can also be synthesized and smoked as well, it's one of the most intense hallucinogens known. Well supposedly when you die, or when your brain senses you're about too, massive amounts of DMT get released into the brain.

I'm not sure the details of yours, but I was watching people explain their near death experiences and I'll be damned if what all of them were describing were exactly how people described when they were tripping on DMT. This includes speaking to a deity. Most people said it was God because of the immense happiness and complacency they felt. But that's also what DMT trippers experience.


I have experimented with DMT amongst other psychotropic drugs, and while the experience was surreal, in my experience it was not tantamount to what I went through. When you find yourself looking at yourself from outside of your own body hearing a medical team trying to ressucitate you, it varies quite differently than "tripping". You should do some research on Terrence Mckenna. One of his theories is that primordial man, or apes if you want to call them that, came to evolve into what we are today through a symbiotic interaction with psychadelics. When you are having a near death experience it can be different for each person. However if you are dying, not just losing oxygen to the brain, it is both the most terrifying but comforting feeling at the same time. First you feel a sinking feeling, and the tunnel vision sets in. You still feel present but cannot see anything though you can faintly hear what is around you. Then you start to see things appear very brightly, and you can almost "feel" a "pop". If you are brought back you are instantly alert and feel as though you have just been shoved through a brick wall (your body).


Either way, what is your relationship to this deity? Does it convene in peoples' lives or just observe? Is there an opposite figure to is, such as a satan? Do you believe it set the universe in motion or is it a byproduct of the universe, aka an alien species or something.

Most of my experiences have been interactive. I have been in situations where people I've been with have heard and seen the same things that I have. For instance one particular night I saw what appeared to be a holographic figure by a wall beside me, and it dissappeared. My ex girlfriend who was next door came out almost in tears because she said that something just came into the room and then vanished. As for what I believe set things in motion. I don't believe in creationism. I also do not completely subscribe to the idea of evolution as Darwin described it. I believe that we are possibly hybrids from a civilization that created our solar system. Which if you've ever read up on Summerian and other ancient transcripts, and the history of our civilization itself, it refers to the "Sky Gods" (aliens) who in some heiroglyphics resemble our modern day astronaughts. As a matter of fact, the word "Heaven" is derived from it's persian origin simply meaning sky. http://scienceline.org/2006/08/ask-snyder-bang/


I agree about not pursuing faith in public, but I go one step forward. I think faith should never be pursued, ever. Faith literally is hiding from logic. Having faith in anything is illogical and should not be done.

Again, and I apologize if I come across as an asshole, but that statement is about as arrogant as it can get. A lot of athiests have a superiority complex, not that I am accusing you of having one. I do think that in order to dispell something, or to embrace something then you have to look at the entire picture. You have to take different paths to get to a certain point to where you can decide for yourself what you deem logical or bullshit. Because basically what you are implying is that most people that persue a doctrine are idiotic, or have some sort of mental density that forces them to resort to religion.

ThreeEyedGod
02-12-2011, 09:28 PM
Well, I am on my phone so I'll just give a brief answer and elaborate later.

What turned me into a believer? Well, you're going to loe this answer: shrooms.

From beyond our known universe

They are spiritual forces; I believe in God so of course I believe in Satan.

Dronepool
02-12-2011, 09:38 PM
The Occult is interesting but believing in it? Nah. I've never seen a ghost or alien, but I don't rule it our or obsess with it.

Zodiac? No way can something determine a person's characteristics based on star alignment. Religion? Nah, believing in some 'all powerful inconsequential force beyond our human perception' is one thing, but divine intervention is is just absurd and delusional.

VelvetAIDS
02-12-2011, 09:44 PM
Religion is something I...am mixed about. I personally have this thing against Abrahamic faiths (not because I'm a manson fan and its trendy). As a naive little child I was sent to church on Wednesday evenings (it wasn't that big of a thing to my family) and didn't really care too much. I didn't exactly like being around groups of people as it was but I just dealt with it. Before I started paying attention (it was 2nd grade for fuck's sake). I detested the idea of memorizing Bible verses, let alone being forced to.

Once we hit certain ages it changed from some a daycare-like religious format to a strictly sit-at-a-table-and-talk-about-jesus thing...which didn't sit well with me. I started making these odd comparisons with religious teaching and brainwashing. They would sing these sing-a-long songs when we were younger and I'd just sit there looking around the room and watch the children that would get TO into it. They would read from the Bible and I would sit there trying to understand how it was taken as fact when it seemed as if a fairy tale like Hansel & Gretel were MORE believable.
I finally stopped going after the 'teacher' would start being harshly defensive whenever I would ask questions concerning the topics, especially when I asked him why we took everything out of context whenever we spoke about positivity and putting our faith in the "Lord" and such things.

After my parents took me out of the church group thing a year later, Christianity wasn't something I ever took time out of my life to pay attention to until my early teens. It was when I was around13-14 I started paying attention to religion.

I believe in ghosts or spirits, whichever you want to call it. When I was young I had one of those nights where I simply could not sleep. Tossing and turning, etc. I lay on my back and close my eyes, I open them a few seconds afterward and I see a disembodied head right above me. It appeared to be the face of a bald man that just stared at me. It wasn't totally transparent, more....milky. It was perfectly still until I bolted out of the room and woke up my parents. It freaked me out a little more since I looked back when I got out of the room and saw it still looking out at me. I woke up my parents and as you would expect gave me the whole 'It isn't real banter.' My mother walked into the bathroom and shut the door, much to my surprise I saw the head moving into the hallway where it instantaneously vanished.

(that's all i can type right now, I'll respond with more stuff later)

Hexon.Arq
02-12-2011, 09:49 PM
None of it has ever seemed relevant enough to warrant my attention, much less my belief. So, no.

Shangri-LIE
02-12-2011, 10:08 PM
None of it has ever seemed relevant enough to warrant my attention, much less my belief. So, no.

Intelligence isn't about how smart you are. It's about what you aquire and your ability to manipulate it into reason.

“The greatest ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about”

Golden Eel
02-12-2011, 10:43 PM
[B]I don't choose to believe in them. I understand that you are trying to dilineate reality from some sort of projection of the mind. However, science itself is not even a definite. It constantly changes. Logic itself even is subjective, and transitive from one perspective to another. There are a lot of things that can't be explained.

You're right, science is an ever evolving (see what I did there? :P) fluid. But you can't use that against it, but that is what makes it great. Science says "I don't know how this event occured. Well based on what I know, I'm going to test different situations and perhaps it will lead me closer to finding the answer." which leads them to more questions and more answers. Some people like to equate accepting science with believing in things like religion. Like you can believe what you want and it is just as valid as what anyone else believes. But that is the thing about science, it goes through thousands of peer-reviewed tests and is based on hard logic. Other opinions are simply not equally valid. And I'm not sure what gives you the idea logic is subjective. Logic is a science, it's absolutely objective. It has set rules. There are lots of things that cannot be explained, correct. It makes more sense to me to accept tested science than to create my own opinion based on my life experiences and pretend it is equally as valid.


However if you take in to consideration, for instance Fatima, if you've ever heard of that, where people ...crowds of people who all witness the exact same apparitions collectivley. Then you might find that tougher to refute than somone claiming that they saw The Virgin Mary on a pancake.

Another thing about science, it doesn't accept heresay and witness testimonials as fact. For the same reason I mentioned earlier, brains as fallible. What is there was a undetected chemical poisoning the whole town and making them hallucinate? Isn't that more likely than being visited by spirits randomly? What if those people were simply lying? Science admits it cannot explain everything in its current state, it doesn't leap over logic and just say "I don't know, so I'm going to assume it's human spirits or angels and that's that."


[...] you find yourself looking at yourself from outside of your own body [...] it is both the most terrifying but comforting feeling at the same time. First you feel a sinking feeling, and the tunnel vision sets in. You still feel present but cannot see anything though you can faintly hear what is around you. Then you start to see things appear very brightly, and you can almost "feel" a "pop". If you are brought back you are instantly alert and feel as though you have just been shoved through a brick wall (your body).

That actually sounds a lot like things that could easily happen while tripping, to me.

I've heard of Terrance McKenna, and that theory is actually quite interesting. I wouldn't reject it.


Most of my experiences have been interactive. I have been in situations where people I've been with have heard and seen the same things that I have. For instance one particular night I saw what appeared to be a holographic figure by a wall beside me, and it dissappeared. My ex girlfriend who was next door came out almost in tears because she said that something just came into the room and then vanished.

So a supernatural supreme deity got bored and decided to stand in your doorway for a second and freak out your girlfriend? Isn't there other things he should be attending too?


As for what I believe set things in motion. I don't believe in creationism. I also do not completely subscribe to the idea of evolution as Darwin described it. I believe that we are possibly hybrids from a civilization that created our solar system. Which if you've ever read up on Summerian and other ancient transcripts, and the history of our civilization itself, it refers to the "Sky Gods" (aliens) who in some heiroglyphics resemble our modern day astronaughts. As a matter of fact, the word "Heaven" is derived from it's persian origin simply meaning sky. http://scienceline.org/2006/08/ask-snyder-bang/

I don't actually believe that, but it is far more realistic and possible than a god doing it. If anything though, I would say it is quite possible an alien civilization set life on earth in motion, even if by accident. But I would also think Darwin's theory still applies whether or not it was set in motion by another species or if it was set in motion by hot temperatures, electricity and the building blocks being in the right place at the right time. And as fascininating as ancient cultures are, they also thought epilepsy was caused by demons until fairly recently. We should definitely not be looking back several thousand years while figuring out what we want to believe.


Again, and I apologize if I come across as an asshole, but that statement is about as arrogant as it can get. A lot of athiests have a superiority complex, not that I am accusing you of having one. I do think that in order to dispell something, or to embrace something then you have to look at the entire picture. You have to take different paths to get to a certain point to where you can decide for yourself what you deem logical or bullshit. Because basically what you are implying is that most people that persue a doctrine are idiotic, or have some sort of mental density that forces them to resort to religion.

No worries. I'm not saying they're stupid. There are many religious people who are much more intelligent than I am. Nor am I saying I'm any better of a person than them. I am just saying most people don't quite grasp logic. No belief in any deity is based on logic. It is not logical at all to say "I don't know something. Well it makes sense to just assume God did it." It just doesn't make any sense at all to jump to that conclusion. It's absolutely based on emotion and the fact that believing in God is status-quo, so it must be true.

Hexon.Arq
02-12-2011, 10:46 PM
Intelligence isn't about how smart you are. It's about what you acquire and your ability to manipulate it into reason.

“The greatest ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about”

If there is food growing in my backyard, I'm not going to drive into town to buy produce.

Dysmorphia
02-13-2011, 12:01 AM
I was raised Christian but never embraced the religion. Even as a child I saw holes in stories I was being recounted. I would hassle my scripture teachers constantly and found it irritating when my questions were never properly answered.
In kindergarten I befriended an Iranian girl who believed in Bahá'í. I spent a lot of time at her home and was always so intrigued by her faith. My beliefs today are loosely based off Bahá'í. I do believe in a higher being, but this is not the cliché personified god of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. For me, ‘God’ is the conscious of creation, a force.
I have no doubt that the prophets Abraham, Buddha, Jesus and Muhammad existed.

With regards to Numerology, there are several numbers that are significant to me, they are 2,3,6,7,9, 12.

I do not believe in superstitions or the zodiac. I have not hand any personal experiences with spirits, ghosts or aliens but will not disregard their existence altogether.

Ultimately, I believe in treating your body like a temple, treating others as they deserve to be treated, and progressive revelation.

KnaveMurdok
02-13-2011, 03:25 AM
I have many ghost stories.
I think homeopathy only works as much as you believe it will.
All religion is fake, so why not?
I think numerology is a pretty interesting study in coincidences and paranoia :D

Dronepool
02-13-2011, 10:44 PM
"When Nietzsche said God is dead, he forgot to mention that Satan died in the same horrific accident."



'"Sigil' as a word is out of date. All this magic stuff needs new terminology because it's not what people are being told it is at all. It's not all this wearying symbolic misdirection that's being dragged up from the Victorian Age, when no-one was allowed to talk plainly and everything was in coy poetic code. The world's at a crisis point and it's time to stop bullshitting around with Qabalah and Thelema and Chaos and Information and all the rest of the metaphoric smoke and mirrors designed to make the rubes think magicians are 'special' people with special powers. It's not like that. Everyone does magic all the time in different ways. 'Life' plus 'significance' = magic. (2004)"

"Everything is literally entangled, it can all be communicated with and affected 'at a distance' because there is no distance, only a simulation of apparent separation which our limited consciousness feeds us second by second at 11 bits. The 'telepathy' which brings people together is no more or less supernatural or unlikely than the 'telepathy' which brings two of your fingers together when you think about it. Patience, participation and constant close observation of what's going on, on the inside and on the outside will soon make you a fine sorcerer, if that's what you want to be. (2004) "

- Grant Morrison

M Tragedy666
02-14-2011, 01:24 AM
First of all, thank you very much for starting this thread. I love topics like this!

I do not believe in any of what you mentioned. There were times in my life that I did when I was younger and more naive. If you want to throw LaVeyian Satanism into the "occult" category, I fall victim to that. It's a big part of my personal system of beliefs. But anyone who knows anything about it certainly know's it has nothing to do with devil worship or belief in anything but yourself. So, it can be thought of more as a philosophy than a religion, at least to me.

I don't know how we got here. Was it an accident? Was it a supreme being? Or maybe it was aliens? Haha, Well, I consider myself an atheist. Though, I think maybe deep down EVERYONE really is sort of a bit agnostic. When no ones knows for sure, they can't truely state they believe in anything or that they don't believe in anything. I'll place my belief in what I can see and what suits my life best.

I have an extreme hatred for ALL of religion. I think it slows down humans. It keeps humans weak, superstitious, and delusional.

I was raised Christian. I now just actually feel really bad for people that take it seriously. More so for the confused kids than anyone. People afraid to be human. I recently joined a christian forum for fun. It is really irritating and sad. People struggling with masturbation...thinking they are going to hell if they release themselves. People thinking it's a sin to marry someone who is divorced, cause it's not "right" in God's eyes. An assortment of other day to day problems. You know, life is stressful and problematic as it is without religion. Religion is just one more way that people seperate themselves rather than being a true society, working together and loving one another. So much death and war over whose God is the right God. Nonsense, all of it. It makes me sick. I'm against rascism, sexism, religion, morals, and basically intolerance of any kind. I live by the motto "if it feels good, do it!...As long as your not hurting anyone that does not wish to be hurt".

I just find it really sad. Cut out all the superstition and problems and life would be a lot easier. But there is a lot wrong with that statement. People as a whole are immature and stupid. They can't handle supreme freedom. I fucking hate humans. They are so infantile. They need to be controlled, because very little would get done with out fascism. I don't think it HAS to be this way, but unfortunately that's the way it is as of now.


One of you mentioned that you have had interaction with aliens? I'd be very interested in hearing this. I am much more an alien sort of fan than a ghost fan. Probably because, and not to sound crazy or to contradict what I said earlier, but there is probably far more emperical evidence of aliens than ghosts or spirits (as far as I'm concerned).

I would love it if it all existed. These fantasy ideas are fun to examine. Ghosts are hard to capture, though. Hard to prove. Aliens on the other hand... Something DID happen at Roswell. And as someone mentioned Fatima earlier, an entire town witnessed the "incident" at Roswell. A LOT of controversy and unexplainable things happened. Certain military people involved mysteriously died. Who knows? Maybe it was just a new U.S. fighter jet that people mistook for an alien craft. What really is going on at Area 51? Have you guys heard Bob Lazars testimony? It's pretty convincing. I still don't believe it, but I enjoy the stories. Like I said, alien or not, SOMETHING occurred. Something has happened. It's weird. I'd believe that we were put here by aliens faster than the God story. But both are bogus and filled with holes to me. No offense to anyone with different beliefs. Just stating my opinion

rrodmila
02-14-2011, 03:23 AM
I was so certain you'd start this thread the instant I said the debate didn't have its place on the other one.

If you want this thread to work, stop questioning everyone and stop wanting to change their minds. I'm not trying to change your views that Science is supreme, OMG, if it's said by science I believe it, etc. There are a lot of fields which remain untouched by science because there isn't enough evidence to build an analysis on. And some of those fields are those that you mentioned.

Again, I feel that intelligent Americans are inclined to be as dismissive as possible when it comes to personal beliefs due to your historical background. My country doesn't work the same as your does and the only (intelligent) people who are so against stuff like this are those that react like I am such an atheist, man. Pfff, God doesn't exist, it could never happen - so people who are pretty set on not changing their minds ever. I personally like to keep my options open and until I find evidence to disprove my beliefs, I will simply move on. That's the part you don't seem to understand. Most people don't say omg, I will never think this way it's just a big what if, which isn't really that mind boggling.

Advice: Let people answer this thread in their own way and make your own personal conclusions. For instance, there are people who believe in stuff I don't, there are people who believe in stuff I do, but I'm not going to start a war and tell them they're wrong. People will always get offended when it comes to beliefs and quite frankly, agreeing has a lot of power on a forum. I'm pretty sure most people who will see posts that completely disagree with their state of mind will feel disinclined to post. So try to make this thread more inviting, hm? It's not about you reacting to everyone's opinions. This is not class and you're not the teacher. Even though you don't admit it/don't see it, you're still treating people like they are so wrong in believing something you disagree with. It doesn't have to be corrected, you know.

And no, I didn't have a tone and I don't dislike you. But I really dislike this desire of yours to make people see things your way. - I would've posted this irrespective of what went on in the Zodiac thread.

Oh, and to answer this thread. There might be a God, I don't know. I'd like the idea of the existence of more entities like back in the day (Greece, Celts, Egyptians - not Romans, they just ripped off Greece, as usual) but that's just because I enjoy symbolism. Religion is the reason why Europeans and Americans can read today, actually - the first scholars being Christian, etc. I'm not saying it wouldn't have happened otherwise, it's just history. But no, I believe that any organized belief in an entity is flawed - commercial reasons and traits pertaining to the animal that is man. People should just love each other and be patient and all the good teachings of religion without an authoritative figure, but that wouldn't be possible, because we're just not that smart. We always need someone to tell us what to do, up to a point.

Aliens should exist, or we'd be a pretty sad planet, if that's the best evolution can do. No, there must be something out there since there are so many gazillions of planets and stars.

Zodiac and numerology, again, I believe in symbolism and a certain logic to how life works. I can pretty much guess what signs or numbers people are based on the general traits specified. It's fun and interesting to observe. I'm not going to throw myself off a building if it is actually proven that it's all unrealistic. And no, Mister Mastah, I will not try to guess your sign or number, I could always check the calendar so that would pretty much beat its point.

Homeopathy - people seem to recover from it, I don't really care. Most drugs used in what people call real medicine are placebos, so yeah. Drugs based on plants should have applicability, though. People who used plants as ailments before the pill came along did get better. My culture has a very rich tea-based variety of treatments. Something for your stomach, something for your heart, something for your everything. They actually work since they're very rich in certain substances which are used in medicine. So yeah, Romanian culture is the shizznit. We experiment, man. We're like the college students and hippies of Europe.

The Occult. I would like to know more!! Moar information! I do a lot of literary criticism in college so again, symbolism is awesome to me. All the matters based on beliefs and what people feel about certain objects/entities mean something in a text. Example: Englishmen and Europeans in general believed that the map worked differently in the Middle Ages. China was supposed to be in the North (England in the South) and people would associate Paradise and a lot of mystical creatures with China, so the further you went up, the weirder the animals portrayed on the map get. Anyway, that's why people were so set on going towards the Indies and finding paradise, that's why Native Americans were called Indians, that's why European literature tends to overemphasize the mysticism of China and why Swift chose Japan as his only real geographical landmark. It's all very interesting.

Since I can't find an appropriate picture of Hereford's Mappa Mundi (because it is awesome, yet huge), I will direct you here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hereford_Mappa_Mundi#Locations). I think you can see this map on a BBC documentary? I forgot what it's called. I was fortunate enough to see it in class. Well, not the map-map :)

Ghosts and souls. Dean Spanley - very sweet (but not very serious) take on the transmigration of souls and all that. I really wish they were real. I have no belief whatsoever. I've never seen a ghost, myself, but I watch documentaries on them with a very keen interest. Souls, well, that has to do with religion, again. And what was once the soul is know pretty much the Self. Ideas keep repeating themselves, things just get more organized and available to the public.

So, all this long post says that I like to keep an open mind and really find it annoying when people try to dissuade others from believing in what they do :P.

I have translating to do :(. Such a busy bee.


EDIT: Oh, and Shangs, I totally agree with your posts. :P

Golden Eel
02-14-2011, 04:16 AM
I was so certain you'd start this thread the instant I said the debate didn't have its place on the other one.

So I did what you suggested? It was a good suggestion, though I'm sure the zodiac thread won't be too lively without us lol.


If you want this thread to work, stop questioning everyone and stop wanting to change their minds. I'm not trying to change your views that Science is supreme, OMG, if it's said by science I believe it, etc. There are a lot of fields which remain untouched by science because there isn't enough evidence to build an analysis on. And some of those fields are those that you mentioned.

You completely misunderstand me. I don't believe science is correct on every single thing, but science does have the most educated (evidence based and peer reviewed) guesses. You're correct, there isn't any evidence for a lot of things so believing in those things is illogical. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I'm not trying to change anyone's views directly, I'm trying to change the way they look at the issue. People are far too gullible, history shows that much.


I personally like to keep my options open and until I find evidence to disprove my beliefs, I will simply move on.

That is where your logic is flawed. You should be believing in things that have evidence to prove them. You're basically saying "I don't need proof to believe something, I need proof it isn't true in order to stop believing it." This is probably the number one rebuttal from religious people. It is simply a logical fallacy. The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim, that being astrologers, mediums, psychics, homepaths, priests, etc. They have no proof and it is illogical to believe their extraordinary claims since they have no evidence (other than appeals to emotion.)


Advice: Let people answer this thread in their own way and make your own personal conclusions. For instance, there are people who believe in stuff I don't, there are people who believe in stuff I do, but I'm not going to start a war and tell them they're wrong. People will always get offended when it comes to beliefs and quite frankly, agreeing has a lot of power on a forum. I'm pretty sure most people who will see posts that completely disagree with their state of mind will feel disinclined to post. So try to make this thread more inviting, hm? It's not about you reacting to everyone's opinions. This is not class and you're not the teacher. Even though you don't admit it/don't see it, you're still treating people like they are so wrong in believing something you disagree with. It doesn't have to be corrected, you know.

This is my thread, actually. I created it for debate, so I'm probably going to debate in it. I have a need to intervene when people choose to believe in...well let's just keep calling them alternative ideas. Like I said before, people are gullible (which is no offense to anyone, I succomb to it as well) and on a large scale this can lead to less than desirable circumstances.


we're just not that smart. We always need someone to tell us what to do, up to a point.

...


Aliens should exist, or we'd be a pretty sad planet, if that's the best evolution can do. No, there must be something out there since there are so many gazillions of planets and stars.

Something we agree on! I however refuse to believe aliens have come to earth to float around in the sky and fuck with us lol. What's your view on alien species that visit Earth?


Homeopathy - people seem to recover from it, I don't really care. Most drugs used in what people call real medicine are placebos, so yeah.

Umm. Are you serious?


Drugs based on plants should have applicability, though. People who used plants as ailments before the pill came along did get better. My culture has a very rich tea-based variety of treatments. Something for your stomach, something for your heart, something for your everything. They actually work since they're very rich in certain substances which are used in medicine. So yeah, Romanian culture is the shizznit. We experiment, man. We're like the college students and hippies of Europe.

Care to list some?


So, all this long post says that I like to keep an open mind and really find it annoying when people try to dissuade others from believing in what they do :P.

You have an open mind...yet you dislike when someone attempts to change your opinion.

Makes total sense.

Ludwig
02-14-2011, 04:22 AM
http://img.youtube.com/vi/EoeSXfaj_1k/0.jpg

Golden Eel
02-14-2011, 04:24 AM
http://img.youtube.com/vi/EoeSXfaj_1k/0.jpg

Do you disagree with something I said?

And ironically, my name is TJ.

Ludwig
02-14-2011, 04:29 AM
Do you disagree with something I said?

And ironically, my name is TJ.

No necessarily, put perhaps with how you said it.

It seemed like this was to be a thread on discussion but the heated discussion seems like it will turn into an argument.

Golden Eel
02-14-2011, 04:34 AM
No necessarily, put perhaps with how you said it.

It seemed like this was to be a thread on discussion but the heated discussion seems like it will turn into an argument.

Of course, that makes a good point. People intertwine their beliefs with their emotions. They get emotionally offended at someone telling them perhaps they are wrong.

I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm trying to tear apart their opinions with logic. Which I would love for anyone to do with me.

rrodmila
02-14-2011, 04:44 AM
Tear apart opinions? So proving you're right.

Look, all you're doing is being way too sure of what you believe in. I'm pretty certain that all I've said makes sense to a mind which would actually pay attention. I am not going to further delve in this discussion, because there is no middle point with you. It's either your way or none.

And the thing with the open mind and being annoyed when people try to change the opinions of others has nothing to do with each other. I don't believe in everything I hear, darling. I just choose to say maybe. It doesn't mean omg, it's truuuue. I don't mind changing my opinion, but why should anyone attempt to make me see things how they see it? That's just assuming I'm stupid/wrong whatever and that they're not. A conversation is based on sharing opinions. It is my decision to change my views or not.

I'm going to say the most obvious thing possible, but you just became an adult and feel that your opinions can be finally taken into consideration. What are you? 18-19? I am certain that after a few years of adulthood, you will understand that you need to respect what others believe and that you're almost never actually right.

Dear mister Tee, I'm out. Really. You're just too opinionated for anyone to have an intelligent conflicting conversation with you - at least on a forum.

Golden Eel
02-14-2011, 04:54 AM
http://i56.tinypic.com/33ju5uq.jpg

VelvetAIDS
02-14-2011, 11:37 AM
All I can I say is:
http://kontraband.se/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/lol.gif

Golden Eel
02-14-2011, 08:44 PM
Seriously though, if someone thinks the fact that I want to tear apart someone's opinion with logic is a bad thing, you clearly don't belong in a debate. A debate consists of using logic to change the other person's mind. What opinions have I used to make everything think I'm just some opinionated asshole?

I haven't even put my opinions out there, all I've said is that logic dictates not believing in things without evidence. I never said either one of us is correct, I said it's illogical to believe in something without evidence. There is a huge difference.

Can anyone provide me any proof to believe in any of these things? That's what I want to discuss.

ThreeEyedGod
02-14-2011, 10:01 PM
Is it frustrating you that you don't seem to be changing the mind of anybody that doesn't hold your views?

People are going to believe what they WILL and God is serious business to the believer dude, just like science is to the scientist.

The burden of proving God isn't real is up to the non-believer if they even care enough to try and disprove it. As far as I know, there has been no serious scientific mission to once and for all disprove God. Atheists always accuse the believer of just being blind followers but I believe tje non-believers are guilty of this too. They will believe in all of this science(some of it pseudo science) such as for example...black holes, just cause scientists said there are such a thing. Have you ever seen a black hole personally? I don't even think a black hole has ever really been seen. Yet, the science faithful will believe a black hole exists because the "proof" is there.

10 years from now we will have a Pluto-like situation: "oh uh, nevermind...there are no black holes no we forgot to carry the 1. They are now called Green Holes, yeah that's it. "

VIDe
02-14-2011, 10:45 PM
The burden of proving God isn't real is up to the non-believer if they even care enough to try and disprove it.

Bertrand Russell and his teapot might disagree with you.


As far as I know, there has been no serious scientific mission to once and for all disprove God.

No, because it's not something you can ever conclusively prove or disprove. However, it's possible to look at the two viewpoints and favor one as being more plausible than the other based on what we've learned about the way the universe works so far.


Atheists always accuse the believer of just being blind followers but I believe tje non-believers are guilty of this too.

Agreed.


10 years from now we will have a Pluto-like situation: "oh uh, nevermind...there are no black holes no we forgot to carry the 1. They are now called Green Holes, yeah that's it. "

Pluto still exists and all of its previously observed properties are unchanged; it's just sorted in a different category now. Unlike religion, science doesn't claim to have the ultimate answer. It's the pursuit of truth, and is thus subject to revision.

ShelfLife
02-15-2011, 03:54 AM
"For the sceptics, no proof is ever enough, and for the believers, no proof is necessary."

I believe in astrology. Not that I'm going to consult an astrologer to advise me of the best time to get a haircut, or that I'm going to ask someone's starsign before I get to know them, but I do find starsigns a rather nifty tool for understanding the way people respond to different situations. For example, knowing that my partner is a Sagitarrius makes me less surprised when I see him running around, taking on 50 creative projects at once (and having the energy to persue them all).

I'm not sure that I believe in religion, but I admire and appreciate faith. I believe religion is something very private that should never be imposed on another, but if praying sooths your soul, if a church gives you inner peace, if feeling you have a connection with a higher power makes this life easier for you (as all those points do for me), then go and God bless.

I have had many strange experiences, which may or may not have anything to do with the paranormal, but I have seen ghosts, and experienced things that can almost only be explained by the paranormal. Why do only believers see ghosts and not sceptics? The same reason a child would approach a friendly-looking adult for help, in opposed to someone who looked nasty or like they didn't have time for children. Why can science not prove the existence of the paranormal? The same way you can't use maths to write a novel. Perhaps in the future, science will develop technology for mapping paranormal activity, but not right now.

I have no opinion on numerology or homoeopathy - I have had little experience with them.

Tarot, runes and palmistry, I do believe in (I read runes myself), and I believed that I have worked spells with positive results. However, I am intensely skeptical of anyone on television who claims to work magick/talk to ghosts/tell the future. If there's fame or cash involved in what you do, I'm going to believe you're only doing it for that.


My partner believes completely in the scientific method, only in things peer-reviewed and tested over and over again - he detests religion and the idea of the "paranormal", he finds it insulting to the beauty and magic that is the Earth and all it contains. However, regardless of what he says, I still find the idea of atheism cold and lonely. I like feeling connected to the spiritual world. I like reading runes, or having my tarot read, at least so I feel that I'm vaguely forwarned for the future. I feel empowered that I can influence the universe to supply me with what I need, when I need it. The "alternate" makes me feel more connected to the world, in opposed to giving me the opportunity to avoid it and hide in my own delusion.

Golden Eel
02-16-2011, 12:50 PM
Is it frustrating you that you don't seem to be changing the mind of anybody that doesn't hold your views?

Again with my views. No I don't want people to believe what I believe. I want people to believe and use logic.


The burden of proving God isn't real is up to the non-believer if they even care enough to try and disprove it. As far as I know, there has been no serious scientific mission to once and for all disprove God. Atheists always accuse the believer of just being blind followers but I believe the non-believers are guilty of this too.

See what I mean? Logical fallacy. To say disproving God is the burden of non-believers is utter nonsense. The burden of proof is on the one making the extraordinary claim. It's not like this is a two-way street. Can you prove there isn't an invisible pink unicorn following you everywhere you go? I'd like to see you try to disprove that. Yet if I came up to you and claimed there was an invisible pink unicorn following you, you'd ask me to prove it. Me saying "Prove it doesn't exist!" doesn't really make any sense.


They will believe in all of this science(some of it pseudo science) such as for example...black holes, just cause scientists said there are such a thing. Have you ever seen a black hole personally? I don't even think a black hole has ever really been seen. Yet, the science faithful will believe a black hole exists because the "proof" is there.

10 years from now we will have a Pluto-like situation: "oh uh, nevermind...there are no black holes no we forgot to carry the 1. They are now called Green Holes, yeah that's it. "

Do you know anything about science at all? The existence of black holes are not debatable. We can see their effects on the space surrounding them. Has anyone ever seen 'gravity'? Have you ever seen gravity? No, I didn't think so. But you can see its effects. We may be completely wrong about what they do or are, but we know something exists because we see its immediate effects.


"For the sceptics, no proof is ever enough, and for the believers, no proof is necessary."

So you admit to believing in things without proof, and you see nothing wrong with that? This quote really just makes your side of the debate seem far more foolish, not sure what you were trying to accomplish.


My partner believes completely in the scientific method, only in things peer-reviewed and tested over and over again - he detests religion and the idea of the "paranormal", he finds it insulting to the beauty and magic that is the Earth and all it contains. However, regardless of what he says, I still find the idea of atheism cold and lonely. I like feeling connected to the spiritual world. I like reading runes, or having my tarot read, at least so I feel that I'm vaguely forwarned for the future. I feel empowered that I can influence the universe to supply me with what I need, when I need it. The "alternate" makes me feel more connected to the world, in opposed to giving me the opportunity to avoid it and hide in my own delusion.

He's right, the things you're saying are incredibly insulting. You say you want to feel connected? So you choose to do this by embracing fairy tales and myths, when all you have to do is look around you. You are connected to this cosmos in ways you can actually see and feel.

And you say you ignore people with "special powers" who are making money off of it? Guess what, you're being scammed whether you think so or not. I assume you've paid for plenty of paranormal "tools"? Whatever it is you use to summon spells and all that, you bought it. You paid money to someone for all of these things.

And people like that are laughing all the way to the bank, daily. They never run out of people like you to mislead.

S.Hal0mega.B
02-16-2011, 02:15 PM
Harsh lol. I would generally agree, but as time goes on I realize how many people believe in things like this. I just think some people don't use the most straight-forward logic when deciding what to believe, I lot of emotion goes into it. I thought perhaps I might be able to reason someone out of at least one alternative idea. Even if I don't, I'm still interested to hear why some people believe what they believe.

Personally not only do i agree with your approach and ideas Mix, but above, I think he was more than harsh in ( VIDe ) saying but it's not going to happen; trying to provoke debate on any of these subjects will only produce endless circular arguments. These beliefs exist outside logic, and generally only serve to fill a need people have for something mystical in their lives.


Before citing the reasons for why ignorance and lack of research is bliss, i am a sceptic... and therefore shall read on here before adding to this reply and hopefully not encounter simpleton thinking (no offence... there are rules to proper scepticism) and I'll discuss MY ideal of them.

Til then,

ShelfLife
02-16-2011, 03:08 PM
So you admit to believing in things without proof, and you see nothing wrong with that? This quote really just makes your side of the debate seem far more foolish, not sure what you were trying to accomplish.

I never said I believed in things without proof, I'm just saying I don't need any. I have seen what I've seen, and I believe because I know what I've seen and experienced throughout my life.



He's right, the things you're saying are incredibly insulting. You say you want to feel connected? So you choose to do this by embracing fairy tales and myths, when all you have to do is look around you. You are connected to this cosmos in ways you can actually see and feel.

My belief in the spiritual world does not exclude science or the cosmos. The day I put a bag on my head and ignore the world around me in favour of fantasies about the garden of Eden and all that, feel free to punch me. But I don't see why science should exclude the spiritual, or visa-versa. I know without a doubt that I am connected to the cosmos, but I can't see or feel that connection any more strongly or clearly than I do my connection to the spiritual.



And you say you ignore people with "special powers" who are making money off of it? Guess what, you're being scammed whether you think so or not. I assume you've paid for plenty of paranormal "tools"? Whatever it is you use to summon spells and all that, you bought it. You paid money to someone for all of these things.

And people like that are laughing all the way to the bank, daily. They never run out of people like you to mislead.


Dude, what tools? Crystals and wands and dream-catchers? I have no use for them. The only 'tools' that come to mind is my rosary beads (counting them is a wonderful way of focusing) and my runes, and both I made myself, with things around my house. My spells are just a fancier, more ritualised form of praying, and praying is a way of meditating and focusing energy.

The idea of combining the spiritual with commerce is incredibly distasteful to me. It's like paying someone let you breathe the air. I have no need for any object that "enhances" my spiritual experience, and if I did, I'd make it myself.

Anyway, the girl who taught me how to read runes didn't ask for money off me. Neither did my friend who had flashes of past and future events. And tell me, when I hear a ticking noise, that occurs without reason, that just starts and stops without influence from any objects around it, and is not just in my head because I've had friends who've heard it too, who do I make my cheques out to?

For that matter, I better track down the magician who made a coin leap out of a coat pocket at 2 in the morning and roll, without wobbling once, down the length of a 5 metre hallway, to land outside my mother's door. Same with the two very tall actors who appeared in front of a campfire in a very isolated spot and vanished unexpected. God only knows how much I owe them.

cyborg assassin
02-16-2011, 03:21 PM
No I don't believe in such stuff, but it's worth knowing something about such topics as many women are interested in them, and they are good topics to start a conversation with a women.

ThreeEyedGod
02-17-2011, 11:34 PM
No I don't want people to believe what I believe. I want people to believe and use logic.

So which is it?



See what I mean? Logical fallacy. To say disproving God is the burden of non-believers is utter nonsense. The burden of proof is on the one making the extraordinary claim.

No, i do not see what you mean. What you don't seem to grasp is the idea that believers are working on another level beyond the realm of mere mortal science,logic, and understanding; God transcends all of that.


It's not like this is a two-way street.

It is if each party is stubborn and insists in "tearing each other apart". You admit that you would like to change the minds of those who believe as i do: in an illogical idea of an ever-present omnipotent being who is the alpha and the omega of all time and creation. But how passionate are you about doing so and at what point do you throw your hands up in the air? How much do you really care about kicking people of their theological high horse? How deeply are their ideas personally affecting you? Many religious people make it their God-given duty to go forth and spread "THE word" ( I am referring to the Abrahamic books here: The Torah, The Gospels, and The Quran). On the other hand, I am a believer and feel no burden whatsoever in trying to change any atheist mind Why? Because i was once one of them and I know how passionate people can be with their own convictions. You could have sat me in the middle of a giant prayer circle with a million holy men surrounding me begging me to believe back when i was atheist, but it wouldn't have done shit: it ultimately took only me to convince myself. Then you have all those superstar atheists like Dawkins and others writing books and giving lectures, so obviously they have put some burden upon themselves wouldn't you say?


Can you prove there isn't an invisible pink unicorn following you everywhere you go? I'd like to see you try to disprove that. Yet if I came up to you and claimed there was an invisible pink unicorn following you, you'd ask me to prove it. Me saying "Prove it doesn't exist!" doesn't really make any sense.

Perhaps if said pink unicorn had hundreds of years of human devotion dedicated to it. Perhaps if this pink unicorn was deeply entrenched in our human history and had inspired and influenced the human cultural experience and the arts. Perhaps if this pink unicorn stirred such passions in the human soul(or brain neurons and signals if you will) that the world warred with each other. Perhaps then maybe I could take a peek at the holy book of this cute little unicorn.


The existence of black holes are not debatable.

I mean, how seriously can you be taken now after this statement?


We may be completely wrong about what God is , but we know something exists because we see its immediate effects.

Golden Eel
02-17-2011, 11:57 PM
No, i do not see what you mean. What you don't seem to grasp is the idea that believers are working on another level beyond the realm of mere mortal science,logic, and understanding; God transcends all of that.

No. It is their choice to believe in it. It is their choice to have a leap of logic, also known as faith. Sure they believe God operates beyond our realm of understanding, but it is their (illogical) choice to believe in the being in the first place.


It is if each party is stubborn and insists in "tearing each other apart". You admit that you would like to change the minds of those who believe as i do: in an illogical idea of an ever-present omnipotent being who is the alpha and the omega of all time and creation. But how passionate are you about doing so and at what point do you throw your hands up in the air? How much do you really care about kicking people of their theological high horse? How deeply are their ideas personally affecting you? Many religious people make it their God-given duty to go forth and spread "THE word" ( I am referring to the Abrahamic books here: The Torah, The Gospels, and The Quran).

You keep missing the logic part. I want to tear apart your opinions WITH LOGIC. That is what a debate is, how do you not get that? I do care about getting people to use logic, but it is simply ingrained in most people to regard emotion with higher value than common sense. People love equating religion and atheism. The difference is atheists appeal to logic, religious people appeal to emotion. The sad part is that most people are still in the emotional stage and can't clearly see logic through it.


Perhaps if said pink unicorn had hundreds of years of human devotion dedicated to it. Perhaps if this pink unicorn was deeply entrenched in our human history and had inspired and influenced the human cultural experience and the arts. Perhaps if this pink unicorn stirred such passions in the human soul(or brain neurons and signals if you will) that the world warred with each other. Perhaps then maybe I could take a peek at the holy book of this cute little unicorn.

Do you realize you just said you would believe in an invisible pink unicorn?


I mean, how seriously can you be taken now after this statement?

Are you trying to say black holes don't exist?

I know I'm not going to get you to think straight, you're too far gone, but perhaps someone else will read this and come to their senses.

Golden Eel
02-18-2011, 12:01 AM
Personally not only do i agree with your approach and ideas Mix, but above, I think he was more than harsh in ( VIDe ) saying but it's not going to happen; trying to provoke debate on any of these subjects will only produce endless circular arguments. These beliefs exist outside logic, and generally only serve to fill a need people have for something mystical in their lives.

As a skeptic, you think that part is harsh?


Before citing the reasons for why ignorance and lack of research is bliss, i am a sceptic... and therefore shall read on here before adding to this reply and hopefully not encounter simpleton thinking (no offence... there are rules to proper scepticism) and I'll discuss MY ideal of them.

Til then,

I'll be glad to hear what you have to add.


No I don't believe in such stuff, but it's worth knowing something about such topics as many women are interested in them, and they are good topics to start a conversation with a women.

Well I've seen people do worse things for pussy.

S.Hal0mega.B
02-18-2011, 12:16 AM
When it comes to all this, it rounds down to this. Science - when the people using its methods are not open to new ideas enough to give some people here (and the world) the needed information so that some of these subjects are no longer branded 'pseudo'science, we are no different to fundamentalist christians who say money means nothing yet steal from the pockets during 'praise god' style healings. I loathe that, yes, but even I am not smart enough to say it is wrong... only as smart as society's and/or my personal ethics allow.

Some of the things that tick me off are those scientists and so called 'academics' that were offended by Steven Hawkings' change of mind on a recent subject, him basically backtracking and saying 'wait a minute, i might be wrong" - paraphrased, of course.

Then there's the ideal I've read put forth by people who claim that no extraterrestrial, interdimensional etc species have visited this planet due to their closed-minded theory that nothing (on earth in our current time) can travel faster than the speed of light.

Now some may think I'd be hoping that there have been visitations here as cited above, but we all are - but yes we must balance that with scepticism. Though in retrospect, a lot of people who tend to ruyb off the idea that we've been visited by 'something from elsewhere' (i say that purely because i will not call ufos extraterrestrial or interdimensional... "Unidentified..." flying object) - when you rub it off, it shows how much you know. That is arrogant of me, but let me put it this way, there are people with minds far superior and knowledge too - to mine that say the same thing - and have obviously researched a lot more and have come to the same conclusion... 'keep an open mind'.

Now I'm not saying anyone here does not have an open mind.

Ghosts. What are they? Science has yet to prove it so they call it pseudoscience. We put our money where our greatest interests are in the entertainment world when it comes to these things (and all the paranormal.. .ufos), and not in the world of true science. Unfortunately it obviously dumbs down the masses' interpretations of all these ideas.

I say I'm proud of what I know, which is that if we survive long enough as a species these pseudosciences will become what Gravity was to us when we first realised it is real (but still, who knows?). Yet today Gravity is a taboo in the world of some of the narrow minded religious... but then what do we know. So we backtrack. Back and forth....

It is a process, and when the apple fell from the tree or tower amongst the first studies of gravity, we tried to harm the career and sanity of the famous founder. We're doing the same thing today with people studying these subjects.



Enough rambling. Sorry I'm right, It's not my fault im not you (just directed at any possible harsh responses to this). And yes that's arrogant, deal with it.

ThreeEyedGod
02-18-2011, 12:49 AM
No. It is their choice to believe in it. It is their choice to have a leap of logic, also known as faith. Sure they believe God operates beyond our realm of understanding, but it is their (illogical) choice to believe in the being in the first place.
...how was 'choice' ever challenged on this "debate"? Of course it is their choice; but the illogical part is your opinion. Oh, but YOU have the facts, no?




You keep missing the logic part. I want to tear apart your opinions WITH LOGIC. That is what a debate is, how do you not get that?
Ok, well once you are done "tearing into me' *snicker*, you can actually try and debate instead of put down and offer thinly veiled insults towads people.




Do you realize you just said you would believe in an invisible pink unicorn?

I do.





Are you trying to say black holes don't exist?

Sigh.



I know I'm not going to get you to think straight, you're too far gone, but perhaps someone else will read this and come to their senses.
maybe

Golden Eel
02-18-2011, 01:04 AM
Ok, well once you are done "tearing into me' *snicker*, you can actually try and debate instead of put down and offer thinly veiled insults towads people.

Give me one logical reason to believe in the paranormal. That's what a debate is, you haven't put forward any reason to believe it other than appeal to emotion. I'm all ears.

And I'm sorry you feel so insulted and just assume everything I say is an insult. Just because you feel a certain way does not mean you are correct. You are misled, you are confused, and you are illogical. If you don't want to feel insulted, don't believe in something that is insane.

ThreeEyedGod
02-18-2011, 01:25 AM
Give me one logical reason to believe in the paranormal. That's what a debate is, you haven't put forward any reason to believe it other than appeal to emotion. I'm all ears.

Give me one logical reason to not believe. What have you done to try and dissuade believers on here besides offering snark and self-righteousness? scientific evidence? Nah.


And I'm sorry you feel so insulted and just assume everything I say is an insult. Just because you feel a certain way does not mean you are correct. You are misled, you are confused, and you are illogical. If you don't want to feel insulted, don't believe in something that is insane.

There you go again assuming I was referring to myself: i am not insulted by you.

This whole "debate" is old hat dude. Surely you don't believe yourself to be some sort of controversial innovator by starting a thread on a Marilyn Manson site with the intentions of 'tearing" into "illogical" beliefs, do you?

Golden Eel
02-18-2011, 01:39 AM
Give me one logical reason to not believe. What have you done to try and dissuade believers on here besides offering snark and self-righteousness? scientific evidence? Nah.

Well besides what I keep saying and saying, I haven't given any reason...

THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE TO PROVE THE PARANORMAL. THAT IS A LOGICAL REASON TO CHOOSE NOT TO BELIEVE SOMETHING.

There. You clearly have logic problems and I'm trying as hard as I can to help you out here.

And before you say science hasn't proven the paranormal does not exist, that's not how logic works. You cannot prove a negative, you prove a positive. Which means the idea that the paranormal exists can and has been tested. And guess what? If it was real, it would be able to be tested with consistent results and scientifically proven. The idea that paranormal does not exist can not be proven. Like someone else said, it's like proving Russel's teapot does not float in space between the Earth and Mars.


This whole "debate" is old hat dude. Surely you don't believe yourself to be some sort of controversial innovator by starting a thread on a Marilyn Manson site with the intentions of 'tearing" into "illogical" beliefs, do you?

I'm not sure I said that. I believe myself to be someone who is interested in the way the mind works. It's quite intriguing the ability of people to be completely blind to something because of what they believe. It's interesting.

ThreeEyedGod
02-18-2011, 01:59 AM
Well besides what I keep saying and saying, I haven't given any reason...

THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE TO PROVE THE PARANORMAL. THAT IS A LOGICAL REASON TO CHOOSE NOT TO BELIEVE SOMETHING.

There. You clearly have logic problems and I'm trying as hard as I can to help you out here.

And before you say science hasn't proven the paranormal does not exist, that's not how logic works. You cannot prove a negative, you prove a positive. Which means the idea that the paranormal exists can and has been tested. And guess what? If it was real, it would be able to be tested with consistent results and scientifically proven. The idea that paranormal does not exist can not be proven. Like someone else said, it's like proving Russel's teapot does not float in space between the Earth and Mars.
What a tangled mess: Keep repeating yourself and maybe it will make more sense.




I'm not sure I said that. I believe myself to be someone who is interested in the way the mind works. It's quite intriguing the ability of people to be completely blind to something because of what they believe. It's interesting.

Blind to what? Your opinions in all their logical majesty?

I'm glad some intrigue is to be had in this thread.

Dysmorphia
02-18-2011, 03:31 AM
THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE TO PROVE THE PARANORMAL. THAT IS A LOGICAL REASON TO CHOOSE NOT TO BELIEVE SOMETHING.


May I ask why you would start a thread promoting discussion on individual's religious or alternative beliefs only to deride those who have different ideas to yours?
Science does not prove religion/ the paranormal but maybe someday it may. You cannot rule things out because science at this stage doesn’t say it’s possible. If we concede to what is known to be definite how could we ever progress?
Frankly, I find full-on atheists worse than Jehovah’s Witnesses knocking on my door.

Golden Eel
02-18-2011, 03:52 AM
May I ask why you would start a thread promoting discussion on individual's religious or alternative beliefs only to deride those who have different ideas to yours?
Science does not prove religion/ the paranormal but maybe someday it may. You cannot rule things out because science at this stage doesn’t say it’s possible. If we concede to what is known to be definite how could we ever progress?
Frankly, I find full-on atheists worse than Jehovah’s Witnesses knocking on my door.

You misunderstand my point. I'm not saying the fact that there is no evidence means it should be ruled out. I'm saying the fact that there is no evidence means it is illogical to believe it. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm saying it doesn't make sense to view it as truth. If there was scientific proof that it was real, I would change my views.

ShelfLife
02-18-2011, 05:46 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8eDynmmIAY

I never liked Christianity. From the time I was first introduced to it when I was 5, it just didn't make sense, and made me feel uncomfortable. Oh, I believed in it, the same way I believed in fairies and Santa and my toys coming to life when I wasn't looking, but the fundamental questions just never clicked.

But faith, I love. Faith in your own strength to overcome obstacles, even if it means inventing an imaginary friend to lean on through your troubles. Faith that there is nothing at all to divide you from anyone else on earth, that you can sit at the table of a stranger and take their hand and say, "We have the same Father." Even as a metaphor, it is beautiful. Religion used to isolate and divide, that instils an "us and them" ideology, that is what I detest. But religion and faith that unifies and strengthens, is beautiful. And the writer in me really does love God as a metaphor.

MixMastahTee, you really have given the impression that you've opened this debate to say, "I want to hear all your opinions so I can systematically tear them down and call you stupid for believing in things that don't exist." I know you wanted to see if you could change people's minds, perhaps make them "see the light" if you'll pardon the expression. But no matter how many times you remind me that science has never proven the existence of ghosts, or in the abilities of psychics, or in the accuracy of astrology, you can not change my mind, and nor should you feel the need to. I know what I've seen and witnessed and experienced. Just as you know when you are in love, you know without room for doubt when you have experienced something beyond the explanations of science or logic.

S.Hal0mega.B
02-18-2011, 05:48 AM
You misunderstand my point. I'm not saying the fact that there is no evidence means it should be ruled out. I'm saying the fact that there is no evidence means it is illogical to believe it. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm saying it doesn't make sense to view it as truth. If there was scientific proof that it was real, I would change my views.

How arrogant. And I can be arrogant, but never this much to over look important factors. You're own thinking is restricted by the fact that 500 or 100 or 10000 years from now science will beccome something else, and with it the paranormal. Because of this, we can never say something is insane without being restricted to a society... well do you want to say there's something sane about this society or mainstream of science by which it abides? Time will tell, and you'll be dead, or something else... only then you may know... and I stress may. The only true fact dear sir is death.

Why so friggin sensitive about people 'forcing' you to believe in something that noeone can disprove or prove because science is too busy wasting its times in the pockets of corporations' interests. Did you just ignore my post and those fine points that even I picked up on by many users here? I think that answers itself.

jonfen
02-18-2011, 05:50 AM
Firstly, I feel that this went way too far, mainly because, as many have already said, beliefs are not something you change your mind about after one guy's thread on some forum, mostly because it's just that - a belief, something that you've given thought to time and time again in the past, since we're not mindless drones here, we actually think about what we say and believe.

Secondly, I really liked what most of you said, it was really interesting to read, seeing how people view things is a process that makes you think about your perspective, but of course, if there are things that I don't necessarily believe or agree with, I don't feel the need to steer you in the "right" direction.

I feel that this thread was doomed from the start, because although it was supposed to be a "debate", the OP never really intended that. A debate isn't trying to change your interlocutor's mind and force your opinion onto them, it's sharing your views with everyone else, in HOPING that someone from the audience will agree with you. The simplest example I could think of is the presidential debate: are the candidates trying to convince one another? Not at all, they're trying to convince the audience.


I know I'm not going to get you to think straight, you're too far gone, but perhaps someone else will read this and come to their senses.

This remark has summed up all your (MixMastahTee) intentions and views pretty nicely. This thread was never about conversation, it was an egotistical compulsion to see how far people can "fall" in their belief system, and eventually to feel how much better your perspective is than everyone else's. To claim the thing you've said is to say that you have no respect whatsoever for the other person's ideas.

That being said, I feel that this thread has lost all of its purpose, if it ever had such a thing. If people would continue sharing their views regarding paranormal and occult things without being judged, now, that would be a whole different thing.

rrodmila warned you about how this thread would wind up, and has refused to further participate because that would have just been much ado about nothing.

P.S. I just saw ShelfLife's post right now, before I submitted mine, and I would just like to add that I completely agree with the view that religion and faith are, and should be, completely different things.

S.Hal0mega.B
02-18-2011, 05:57 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8eDynmmIAY

I never liked Christianity. From the time I was first introduced to it when I was 5, it just didn't make sense, and made me feel uncomfortable. Oh, I believed in it, the same way I believed in fairies and Santa and my toys coming to life when I wasn't looking, but the fundamental questions just never clicked.

But faith, I love. Faith in your own strength to overcome obstacles, even if it means inventing an imaginary friend to lean on through your troubles. Faith that there is nothing at all to divide you from anyone else on earth, that you can sit at the table of a stranger and take their hand and say, "We have the same Father." Even as a metaphor, it is beautiful. Religion used to isolate and divide, that instils an "us and them" ideology, that is what I detest. But religion and faith that unifies and strengthens, is beautiful. And the writer in me really does love God as a metaphor.

MixMastahTee, you really have given the impression that you've opened this debate to say, "I want to hear all your opinions so I can systematically tear them down and call you stupid for believing in things that don't exist." I know you wanted to see if you could change people's minds, perhaps make them "see the light" if you'll pardon the expression. But no matter how many times you remind me that science has never proven the existence of ghosts, or in the abilities of psychics, or in the accuracy of astrology, you can not change my mind, and nor should you feel the need to. I know what I've seen and witnessed and experienced. Just as you know when you are in love, you know without room for doubt when you have experienced something beyond the explanations of science or logic.


I agree, but I must say that the part I bolded has almost been proven. Remote Veiwing is a valid psychic ability. There are plenty of psychics who have helped agencies in situations that like the latter remote veiwing, warrant scientific investigation. And where it did, I found plenty of interesting evidence coming to a delightful conclusion free of wishfull-thinking-style-arrogance. The more research out there people will do, the more they will realise, the less, the more obvious it will be that they will only come to either a curiousity, complete disinterest or sad avoidance all together.

UFO's are something interesting that unfortunately MIX have been proven, but what they are - is waiting to be proven.


It's unfortunate that I have a migraine right now, and thus will not give up if MIX turns this into a debate... i do not need or require one and can be just as entertaining with a kind of closemindedness I feed from you, after all, I studied acting in high school lol.

But... hmmm.. I smell something more interesting... 'leaves thread'.

S.D.
02-18-2011, 06:01 AM
I don't necessarily "believe" in anything. But I know which human behavioural trends are hurtful, hateful, and counter-productive, and therefore make it my business not to invest any extended amount of time into them.

I don't get angry about people who think there is an omnipotent presence in their lives, waiting to be saved by it as their flesh-and-bones body stops working, I just don't care.
I'm not overtly scientific, neither am I devoutly spiritual. Some discoveries made in the name of science have saved millions of lives, others have ended them. Some elements of dogma have made people happy and progressive, others have made them barbarous, blindsided sadists. I might occasionally be habitually superstitious, but not because I actually think there is an outcome to "walking under ladders", or "opening umbrellas indoors" (which I do regularly), but simply because sometimes the human brain needs meaningless patterns to follow, no matter how illogical or ridiculous they might be.

So no, I don't believe in alternative ideas. Outside of religion or structures that oppress people however, I don't want to go around telling people they shouldn't. If I ever see what people have called "ghosts", or I experience something that could only be classified as deeply spiritual, or paranormal, fine, consider my attention gained, but until then I'll continue to enjoy the odd farcical spook story, shake my head at the naivety inherent in mainstream religions, be awed and scared by science simultaneously, and generally mind my own business.

Cringeon
02-18-2011, 06:28 AM
I was raised in a Mormon family, but stopped going around age 12. Dabbled around with Wicca in my teenage years, but definitely not with any sort of respect. After that I flip-flopped between calling myself an Atheist and Agnostic. I think I was more agnostic than anything, and the feelings that aligned with atheism were probably just misplaced frustrations about being raised in a christian family, and living in a heavily mormon city (i moved from homestead florida to salt lake city utah in 1997).

Around 2007, I started getting into meditation and really went through a period where I started feeling a very large connection not only to the people in my life on some cosmic level, but the earth, the energies of the cosmos - I guess some general thread of life force that runs through everything. My wife and I started really taking another look at Wicca around the time we got married, and honestly the only way I can explain it is that the core principals are something I feel that was always part of my personal beliefs. The thing I love about pagan religion is that there is no set way to practice, and it's really just a way of thinking and acting that finds it way to compliment a personal path. I've been practicing Wicca for just about 2 years now. I think when I came across it in my youth, I don't think I was in the right place in my life for it - and probably was drawn more towards the rebelion aspect of being into "witchcraft" in Utah. But I am glad that it found it's way back into my life at a time when I think I can take the time to really understand and appreciate it.

jonfen
02-18-2011, 07:52 AM
Wow, Cringeon, that's awesome! rrodmila says (she's very adamant about not posting again in this thread) that she thinks it's incredible how you two (you and rrodmila) always seem to be on the same page with practically everything discussed on this forum and previous one. Big hugs from her.

As for me, it's very interesting to read about meditation, mainly because I find it to be a very unique thing to experience and discuss. I think Mircea Eliade had a huge influence on me when it comes to this sort of thing (He's Romanian, but I'm inclined to think you might know about him, especially the ones from the United States, since that's where he wrote his masterpiece - A History of Religious Ideas), having dealt with Hinduism and Transcendentalism most of his life. Most of his short stories dabble with the supernatural, and it's very enlightening to read, since he based those works on stuff he actually experienced (or at least wanted to).

Oh, and S.D. just summed up basically everything we believe and were trying to convey on this matter, in his elegant manner, as usual. (rrodmila: S.D. and KrazzyJoe always managed to express everything she wanted to)

ThreeEyedGod
02-18-2011, 02:02 PM
Of course this was going to end up one big pissing contest. Clean up on aisle 6, clean up on aisle 6.

S.Hal0mega.B
02-18-2011, 09:17 PM
Of course this was going to end up one big pissing contest. Clean up on aisle 6, clean up on aisle 6.

yep, god help us if dick dawkins decides to lend us his delirium

Golden Eel
02-19-2011, 11:00 AM
But no matter how many times you remind me that science has never proven the existence of ghosts, or in the abilities of psychics, or in the accuracy of astrology, you can not change my mind, and nor should you feel the need to. I know what I've seen and witnessed and experienced. Just as you know when you are in love, you know without room for doubt when you have experienced something beyond the explanations of science or logic.

I feel the need to do this because I detest mass delusion and the massive influence it has on our society. Yes, these ideas are a hugely important part of our development, but it is 2010 and the grip it has on this planet is too much for me. If I can even convince one person to view their beliefs through a more logical lense, this will be a success.


How arrogant. And I can be arrogant, but never this much to over look important factors.

Out of all the things I've said, that is far from arrogant.


You're own thinking is restricted by the fact that 500 or 100 or 10000 years from now science will beccome something else, and with it the paranormal. Because of this, we can never say something is insane without being restricted to a society... well do you want to say there's something sane about this society or mainstream of science by which it abides? Time will tell, and you'll be dead, or something else... only then you may know... and I stress may. The only true fact dear sir is death.

Like I said, if I were alive in 500 or 100 or 10,000 years from now and science had proved some sort of paranormal, I would adjust my beliefs. Until then, it is not logical to choose to believe in it. You say you're a skeptic, then say I'm arrogant for saying it is illogical to believe something without evidence. Isn't that what skepticism is? Durr.


Why so friggin sensitive about people 'forcing' you to believe in something that noeone can disprove or prove because science is too busy wasting its times in the pockets of corporations' interests. Did you just ignore my post and those fine points that even I picked up on by many users here? I think that answers itself.

What makes you think I'm sensitive about people forcing me to believe anything? Where did you even get that idea? And it doesn't matter what science is being funded to find, it's still science.


Firstly, I feel that this went way too far, mainly because, as many have already said, beliefs are not something you change your mind about after one guy's thread on some forum, mostly because it's just that - a belief, something that you've given thought to time and time again in the past, since we're not mindless drones here, we actually think about what we say and believe.

If it has gone too far for you, leave. It's a thread on some forum, exactly. Why do you people take this so seriously?


I feel that this thread was doomed from the start, because although it was supposed to be a "debate", the OP never really intended that. A debate isn't trying to change your interlocutor's mind and force your opinion onto them, it's sharing your views with everyone else, in HOPING that someone from the audience will agree with you. The simplest example I could think of is the presidential debate: are the candidates trying to convince one another? Not at all, they're trying to convince the audience.

Whichever goal I planned to attempt to reach, it wouldn't really change anything I said.


This remark has summed up all your (MixMastahTee) intentions and views pretty nicely. This thread was never about conversation, it was an egotistical compulsion to see how far people can "fall" in their belief system, and eventually to feel how much better your perspective is than everyone else's. To claim the thing you've said is to say that you have no respect whatsoever for the other person's ideas.

It was about debate and attemping to get people (the people talking to me or the audience) to think more logically. You're correct, I have no respect whatsoever for these ideas. I'll gladly accept any evidence for any of them but until I get it, I'll treat all of these ideas as they should be treated - superstitious nonsense. I don't have to respect your beliefs or opinions. And on the other side of the coin, just because I don't respect a belief you have does not mean I don't respect you as a person.


That being said, I feel that this thread has lost all of its purpose, if it ever had such a thing. If people would continue sharing their views regarding paranormal and occult things without being judged, now, that would be a whole different thing.

This thread is about the beliefs and ideas, not the people who hold them. I judge their beliefs, not the person.


rrodmila warned you about how this thread would wind up, and has refused to further participate because that would have just been much ado about nothing.

What does that even mean? This thread seems to be doing perfectly well to me. It's a forum, if your feelings are going to be hurt so easily, you should not be on the internet.


I agree, but I must say that the part I bolded has almost been proven. Remote Veiwing is a valid psychic ability.

Please, show me any proof at all. You're a self-proclaimed skeptic, you should have some on hand.


There are plenty of psychics who have helped agencies in situations that like the latter remote veiwing, warrant scientific investigation.

There hasn't been a single case recognized by the FBI or the national news. You're making this up.


UFO's are something interesting that unfortunately MIX have been proven, but what they are - is waiting to be proven.

UFO's have been proven, but they're also waiting to be proven? Is English not your first language?


I don't necessarily "believe" in anything. But I know which human behavioural trends are hurtful, hateful, and counter-productive, and therefore make it my business not to invest any extended amount of time into them.

Yet you say later on that you don't go around telling people what they should believe. So you know which human behavioural trends are negative, yet you don't see worldwide mass-delusion as one of those?


I don't get angry about people who think there is an omnipotent presence in their lives, waiting to be saved by it as their flesh-and-bones body stops working, I just don't care.

Most people aren't this way though. Most people identify themselves as part of a major religion and with that comes any number of bad things. If everyone believed their own little story about a deity and didn't let the dogma attached with it effect the way they view the world (mainly scientific matters) and the way they voted, I would be slightly more accepting of that. Sadly, that's a dream world.


I'm not overtly scientific, neither am I devoutly spiritual. Some discoveries made in the name of science have saved millions of lives, others have ended them. Some elements of dogma have made people happy and progressive, others have made them barbarous, blindsided sadists.

Surely you see the false equivalency? Science creates tools for people to do good or evil with. It is inherently nuetral. Religion is a catalyst, it is what creates the good or evil which the people who believe it feel.

Also, which elements of dogma do you see as progressive? I can understand how it makes people happy, people have a hole inside them that needs to be filled as the religious zealots say, and they'll accept pretty much any answer as long as they don't have to think about the issue anymore.


yep, god help us if dick dawkins decides to lend us his delirium

Are you attempting to insult me by comparing me to a world renowned biologist and public intellectual? Uh lol.

Golden Eel
02-19-2011, 11:47 AM
Also, as a side note, does this (http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html) not bother any of you? Someone is offering straight up $1,000,000 to prove any of these things you believe. Why hasn't anyone succeeded?

Cringeon
02-19-2011, 12:21 PM
A belief is a very personal thing, that I don't think any one is obligated to have to prove to someone who doesn't share their beliefs. You obviously are cemented in your view, and to counter with someone with a different one is just looking to cause discomfort. You have stated a pretty firm stance on your view, so it makes me believe you aren't looking to actually discuss/learn/question.

I get that you are trying to "debunk" peoples personal faiths - but it serves no purpose. Like I said, spirituality I think is a personal thing and someone shouldn't have to debate the things that give them peace or inspiration. Everyone should be allowed to walk a path that fits their life without anyone trying to argue or belittle those views.

Edit: And as a side note. You are asking people to prove emotions. How am I going to be able to prove my belief in wicca? Can anyone prove to me their feeling of love towards someone? Or can an artist prove their inspiration or influence some other art has on them? You are trying to put a physical proof on something that in it's purpose intangible. And you'll use the fact that you are trying to force people to prove emotions and faith as some justification they don't exsist - which is flawed.

Golden Eel
02-19-2011, 12:47 PM
A belief is a very personal thing, that I don't think any one is obligated to have to prove to someone who doesn't share their beliefs.

Exactly, it's a very emotionally (see: not logical) driven choice to believe these things. I'm not offended and driven into a tissy by any of the things anyone here has said because I don't intertwine my emotion and beliefs. I don't believe what makes me feel good, and I don't reject what makes me feel bad.


You obviously are cemented in your view, and to counter with someone with a different one is just looking to cause discomfort. You have stated a pretty firm stance on your view, so it makes me believe you aren't looking to actually discuss/learn/question.

All I want is a logical, evidence based reason. That would definitely make my change my views. I keep asking for some. No one has given me anything other than "It makes people feel nice, it doesn't have to make sense!" I have asked questions to understand the beliefs (ie "Why is the idea that you've seen a spirit more likely to be real than the idea that you hallucinated?".) I keep repeating my stance - there is no evidence to support these extraordinary claims, therefore it is illogical to believe them. I would gladly accept a logical, evidence based argument for anything to change my views.


I get that you are trying to "debunk" peoples personal faiths - but it serves no purpose. Like I said, spirituality I think is a personal thing and someone shouldn't have to debate the things that give them peace or inspiration. Everyone should be allowed to walk a path that fits their life without anyone trying to argue or belittle those views.

And like I said, the purpose is attempting to lower the amount of delusion in this society. The beliefs you hold on the issue are just as damaging as the issue itself. You encourage people to believe in fairy-tales just because it makes them feel nice.

It basically comes down to emotion, again. The enablers (you, S.D., etc.) believe in throwing critical thought out the window if it makes someone feel nice. I believe truth is truth, regardless of whether or not it makes you feel special.

Cringeon
02-19-2011, 01:00 PM
It's an endless cycle. You keep saying you want logical evidence based on reason - for something you are on the same breath said you understand is a non-tangible, emotional/spirital thing. I don't know how you want someone to prove an internal thing that can not be materialized.

Can you prove to me in any way that you only believe in logic/reason? I mean, without just saying "hey, I believe in logic". Can you physically show me that science is what you believe in? I'm not asking you to prove science, I'm asking you to prove to me that the truth you feel is actually truth and not just something that fits your belief system.

Golden Eel
02-19-2011, 01:02 PM
Edit: And as a side note. You are asking people to prove emotions. How am I going to be able to prove my belief in wicca? Can anyone prove to me their feeling of love towards someone? Or can an artist prove their inspiration or influence some other art has on them? You are trying to put a physical proof on something that in it's purpose intangible. And you'll use the fact that you are trying to force people to prove emotions and faith as some justification they don't exsist - which is flawed.

No, I'm asking people how they justify why they believe something for which the main evidence is emotion. Why is it logical when the most compelling "proof" to believe it is emotion? That's simply a bad reason to believe something, it's intellectual devolution. I don't want you to prove your belief in Wicca, I believe that you believe it. I want you to prove that anything Wicca puts forth is true, other than the fact that it appeals to you emotionally. Get it?

Golden Eel
02-19-2011, 01:07 PM
It's an endless cycle. You keep saying you want logical evidence based on reason - for something you are on the same breath said you understand is a non-tangible, emotional/spirital thing. I don't know how you want someone to prove an internal thing that can not be materialized.

Can you prove to me in any way that you only believe in logic/reason? I mean, without just saying "hey, I believe in logic". Can you physically show me that science is what you believe in? I'm not asking you to prove science, I'm asking you to prove to me that the truth you feel is actually truth and not just something that fits your belief system.

I am not asking you to prove that you believe in anything. I'm asking you to prove that what you believe makes any logical sense. Emotion is unbelievable fallible. If you use emotion to choose how to live your life, you are most likely misled. If you've ever done drugs, you'll know what an illusion emotions are. They're just chemical assortments and they can change seemingly at random.

Cringeon
02-19-2011, 01:18 PM
Emotion is how anyone chooses to live their live. If you don't make decisions based on emotions, than you don't feel. If you think that is misled, than we obviously just will never see eye to eye.

Again you are asking to prove things not tangible. Even if I told you what I have experienced, without you having shared that same experience - you will find theories to explain them to be something else besides what I experienced. Unless two people go through the same spiritual moment, how can anyone properly prove anything to someone?

I think it's completely logical to believe in religion. I view it more as something someone can take influence and find peace in - and the emotional/spirtual aspect of humanity I think is as equally relevant as the physical/tangible. Even if the contents of religion are something you find are fairy tales, I think as someone of science you can admit that huge impact and positive influence a spiritual experience can have on someone. Again, you can say it's just the brain, and chemicals - but spirituality does have an impact on a person in a way nothing else does. I think it's completely logical because even if it's fairy tales - spirituality of all kinds influences the way people think and challenge themselves or change themselves. All the proof I need is to see someone inspired and do something with that inspiration.

Golden Eel
02-19-2011, 01:44 PM
Emotion is how anyone chooses to live their live. If you don't make decisions based on emotions, than you don't feel. If you think that is misled, than we obviously just will never see eye to eye.

I think you're misunderstanding me. Of course I do things based on emotion. I feel sad, I do things sad people do. I feel happy, I do things happy people do. I'm also absurdly scared of death, but do I change my beliefs and think I'll go to Heaven when I die just because it would be beneficial emotionally to me? No.


Again you are asking to prove things not tangible.

Again, you clearly didn't read what I wrote. I'm not asking you to prove that you feel the way you feel. I'm asking you why you think the way you feel seems to prove what you believe.


Even if I told you what I have experienced, without you having shared that same experience - you will find theories to explain them to be something else besides what I experienced.

Exactly. There are other theories to explain what you experienced. My question is this - why do you choose to ignore the scientifically backed, evidence based explanation of what you felt (we know what causes extreme emotion) and replace it with something supernatural? Anyone who has done hallucinogens can tell you that 'spiritual experiences' are easily controlled by chemicals.


Unless two people go through the same spiritual moment, how can anyone properly prove anything to someone?

Well actually even if I was able to go into your head and experience the 'spiritual moment', it still wouldn't prove anything. Sure, it would prove that you had a extreme emotional circumstance, but that in itself doesn't really prove anything at all.


I think it's completely logical to believe in religion.

You don't seem to understand how logic works. That's why they have faith. They have no evidence, so they have to put their faith in ancient writings hoping they're correct.


I view it more as something someone can take influence and find peace in - and the emotional/spirtual aspect of humanity I think is as equally relevant as the physical/tangible. Even if the contents of religion are something you find are fairy tales, I think as someone of science you can admit that huge impact and positive influence a spiritual experience can have on someone.

I agree that it can be beneficial to one emotionally. Believing in a lot of things can make people happy. The fact doesn't change that believing in something solely because it makes you feel nice is a lousy reason to believe in something and shows lack of critical thinking.


Again, you can say it's just the brain, and chemicals - but spirituality does have an impact on a person in a way nothing else does.

Except well...drugs. You meditate or read your Wicca or whatever it is you do for a week, I'll trip on shrooms for a week. Let us see who has a more profound spiritual experience.


I think it's completely logical because even if it's fairy tales - spirituality of all kinds influences the way people think and challenge themselves or change themselves. All the proof I need is to see someone inspired and do something with that inspiration.

Okay, and that's cool for you. That still doesn't change what is logical, you're using that word wrong.

Cringeon
02-19-2011, 01:57 PM
Tripping on mushrooms is exactly what snapped me out of atheist/agnostic and got me to take a look at Wicca again :P

I guess my logic is, my spiritual path does not include anything that condridicts the laws of science. I believe in reincarnation, in that matter cannot be destroyed or created it can only transform. To me (but not all Wiccans) our deities are not humanoid creatures isolated from us in some distant spiritual realm; they are accessible forces of nature—accessible through ritual meditation, or what some practitioners of the Craft call Magic. To me, magic is simply a knowledge of how emotion and concentration can be directed naturally to effect changes in consciousness that affect behavior.

Golden Eel
02-19-2011, 02:16 PM
Tripping on mushrooms is exactly what snapped me out of atheist/agnostic and got me to take a look at Wicca again :P

I guess my logic is, my spiritual path does not include anything that condridicts the laws of science. I believe in reincarnation, in that matter cannot be destroyed or created it can only transform.

Ah, well that seems like a very loose usage of reincarnation to me. Doesn't reincarnation involve the 'soul'?


To me (but not all Wiccans) our deities are not humanoid creatures isolated from us in some distant spiritual realm; they are accessible forces of nature—accessible through ritual meditation, or what some practitioners of the Craft call Magic. To me, magic is simply a knowledge of how emotion and concentration can be directed naturally to effect changes in consciousness that affect behavior.

So you believe you can affect how you will feel and act by focusing thought on it? What separates any of this from normal psychology? Why the spirituality? Everything you believe about is totally compatible with current science?

timoldbean
02-19-2011, 02:21 PM
Perhaps the feel good factor is not the proof that belief is true, but the reward, and achieving this reward is what makes it seem right and true. That works out for science as well as religion.

Enigma
02-19-2011, 03:56 PM
Logic is nothing but a way or a path we have established to understand things. Logic is as illogic as believes are. Why is 1+1=2 logic? Because we, as human beings, understand the world that way and we don't need to be told 1+1=2, we just know it. The same goes for the believers, we all know there's something bigger that moves and balances the universe. Call it science, call it whatever you want. All is about faith, I'm sorry. How do you know you have lungs? Have you ever seen YOUR lungs? Have you ever seen the color of your heart? No. You have seen other cases, how do you know your inner body is the same? Because you have faith in it. Will the sun show up tomorrow? Well, it has been rising since the beginning of times, but that is no proof enough to be sure tomorrow will happen the same. Yet, you BELIEVE it will happen. It's all faith. We live into faith, and without it, we are no humans. Science is all about objectivity, yet only objects have the quality of being objective, we, as subjects, are subjective. Don't think the universe works in order you can understand it. We are just a part of the whole, and only the whole knows what's going on.

And hey, I was like MixMastahTee a few years ago. My religion was science. Now I "know" there's no truth, but portions of it. I used to have a very logical mind, and now I'm in a very different life situation. I've changed, my father started learning hypnosis and I can tell you the body works very different from what you've been told. We are symbolic, abstract and spiritual beings. Don't treat life like you treat your computer. There's no equation, there's no answer. And maybe you'll be closer to the truth when you assume there is not any. There is life, so enjoy it.

S.Hal0mega.B
02-19-2011, 06:32 PM
Logic is nothing but a way or a path we have established to understand things. Logic is as illogic as believes are. Why is 1+1=2 logic? Because we, as human beings, understand the world that way and we don't need to be told 1+1=2, we just know it. The same goes for the believers, we all know there's something bigger that moves and balances the universe. Call it science, call it whatever you want. All is about faith, I'm sorry. How do you know you have lungs? Have you ever seen YOUR lungs? Have you ever seen the color of your heart? No. You have seen other cases, how do you know your inner body is the same? Because you have faith in it. Will the sun show up tomorrow? Well, it has been rising since the beginning of times, but that is no proof enough to be sure tomorrow will happen the same. Yet, you BELIEVE it will happen. It's all faith. We live into faith, and without it, we are no humans. Science is all about objectivity, yet only objects have the quality of being objective, we, as subjects, are subjective. Don't think the universe works in order you can understand it. We are just a part of the whole, and only the whole knows what's going on.

And hey, I was like MixMastahTee a few years ago. My religion was science. Now I "know" there's no truth, but portions of it. I used to have a very logical mind, and now I'm in a very different life situation. I've changed, my father started learning hypnosis and I can tell you the body works very different from what you've been told. We are symbolic, abstract and spiritual beings. Don't treat life like you treat your computer. There's no equation, there's no answer. And maybe you'll be closer to the truth when you assume there is not any. There is life, so enjoy it.

Dear Sir, you have hit the nail on the head.:) Kudos


MixMastahTee My god, when are you going to understand, as I can assume you are quite capable of, that LOGIC is based only along the guidelines I laid out earlier that Enigma just above this post pointed out with more clarity. I'm sorry if you don't like the facts of life. But logic is.... what we want it to be. and what we are are emotional beings.

It's not our faults we're right and/or wrong, but it is your fault you can't see this and well, you remind me of an old friend who had his mind trapped on something and wouldn't let go, would snap a counter-arguement every time... that old friend was me. Before I grew up.

S.Hal0mega.B
02-19-2011, 07:14 PM
PART 1

To make this quick and simple. And also easier to understand I will simply insert my additions to the quoted text below in bold...


I feel the need to do this because I detest mass delusion and the massive influence it has on our society. Yes, these ideas are a hugely important part of our development, but it is 2010 and the grip it has on this planet is too much for me. If I can even convince one person to view their beliefs through a more logical lense, this will be a success. Sorry buddy but it is outdated to restrict one's veiws to a single time and space of scientific discovery



Out of all the things I've said, that is far from arrogant.
like i care, i said it for reasons you'll never seem to be able to believe, maybe, but it doesn't affect me... moving on...


Like I said, if I were alive in 500 or 100 or 10,000 years from now and science had proved some sort of paranormal, I would adjust my beliefs. Until then, it is not logical to choose to believe in it. You say you're a skeptic, then say I'm arrogant for saying it is illogical to believe something without evidence. Isn't that what skepticism is? Durr.

Again, you're restricting your logic to a certain time period. Big Mistake

What makes you think I'm sensitive about people forcing me to believe anything? Where did you even get that idea? And it doesn't matter what science is being funded to find, it's still science.

Actually I'm sorry I'm right, and I'm sorry I did not make that clear enough for you. Too many 'shrooms'?
Those who give money to scientists are of a certain opinion. That opinion (not all the time, but enough) affects the results if the person giving the money is unhappy, this has happened time and time again. Not only that, Science is restricted to the thought patterns of today, which unfortunately will evolve, and because they will evolve (hopefully) our minds will obviously credit logic as restricted to its relativity in time and space and thus current knowledge

If it has gone too far for you, leave. It's a thread on some forum, exactly. Why do you people take this so seriously?



Whichever goal I planned to attempt to reach, it wouldn't really change anything I said.



It was about debate and attemping to get people (the people talking to me or the audience) to think more logically. You're correct, I have no respect whatsoever for these ideas. I'll gladly accept any evidence for any of them but until I get it, I'll treat all of these ideas as they should be treated - superstitious nonsense. I don't have to respect your beliefs or opinions. And on the other side of the coin, just because I don't respect a belief you have does not mean I don't respect you as a person.



This thread is about the beliefs and ideas, not the people who hold them. I judge their beliefs, not the person.

With logic relative to now, logic restricted and hinded by the way your mind filters it due to what YOU know. Your logic is something personal. It is also, I repeat, relative only to today, thus cancelling out most things because like I said, the only thing (perhaps) that is certain is death

What does that even mean? This thread seems to be doing perfectly well to me. It's a forum, if your feelings are going to be hurt so easily, you should not be on the internet.



Please, show me any proof at all. You're a self-proclaimed skeptic, you should have some on hand.

You read that before I edited it, sorry buddy, but you've also been put in the 'hey, i haven't read enough research' spotlight. I will not waste my time because the way your mind filters logic and reality doesn't rise to the level of respect I would bestow for such information. It sounds grand, but it's not really.

There hasn't been a single case recognized by the FBI or the national news. You're making this up.

Sorry buddy, refer to the above. It's not my fault I'm not making this up sonny jim.

UFO's have been proven, but they're also waiting to be proven? Is English not your first language?

Are you on drugs? WHAT UFOs are is yet to be proven. THEY have been proved to exist. Jeez, you're seriously skipping words with those eyes of yours


Most people aren't this way though. Most people identify themselves as part of a major religion and with that comes any number of bad things. If everyone believed their own little story about a deity and didn't let the dogma attached with it effect the way they view the world (mainly scientific matters) and the way they voted, I would be slightly more accepting of that. Sadly, that's a dream world.



Surely you see the false equivalency? Science creates tools for people to do good or evil with. It is inherently nuetral. Religion is a catalyst, it is what creates the good or evil which the people who believe it feel.


Because those funding the scientific research and even the scientists themselves have certain beliefs, some, if not quite a bit of scientific results for all kinds of studies are hinded by the fact that... if the results do not agree with the current scientific mainstream (the mind of the scientist and his source of money) than they will be outed or considered pseudo-science. OR perhaps something called - 'progress' - will occur. There's a whole host of situations and outcomes to that scene. Sorry about that but the many possible outcomes have been all kinds of death machines and viruses... as well as things that have done good. But this is not a competition, not that anyone is saying so. Otherwise, despite how much it pissses me off, the idea of a fundamental muslim or even YOU being right could actually come to be, if there were not the fact of the 'constant relative to time' factor, in justifying one's logic from a certain time period. Logic itself is hinded by its time in the grand timeline, and if you want to believe (Yes believe ,it is a religion) that current logic works, sure thing. But there are certain facts that even current logic ignores. But even those facts can be disputed... see... nothing is certain. The only key to gaining anything through logic is keeping an open mind and respect balanced with skeptism, which you are not doing

Also, which elements of dogma do you see as progressive? I can understand how it makes people happy, people have a hole inside them that needs to be filled as the religious zealots say, and they'll accept pretty much any answer as long as they don't have to think about the issue anymore.

I see the idea of treating others how you would want to be treated as possibly progressive. But just because I allow myself to see that even dogma holds a possibility of reality above all that we may never live to see, it doesn't mean i believe it. And yes, sometimes it can be obvious people are using it as something to fill a hole, just like goth trends and athiesm can be used to fill a hole

Are you attempting to insult me by comparing me to a world renowned biologist and public intellectual? Uh lol.

Yes! And I'm so sorry, i did not know he was 'untouchable' lol.

If you've seen his enemies against reason program you'll realise he's just scratching at the barrell of the wrong direction. I saw him try to... and it had me in awe.... lol .. prove that there's no (dawkins-style) science behind psychics... He made the program like he went out and found the particular psychics at random, and just concluded his results on that. And he did because I know for a fact that there's far more out there to it that warrants a longer and deeper investigation that he so pathetically came down to.
His books contain far more research, but are unfortunately hinded by the fact that science is only relative to current trends. Dawkins has become that, and I'm sorry but it is not my fault he chose to make a BBC 'scientific' program that I could of at least done a better job of, and If I was on his side. How could I have done a better job? All scientists who venture, to what I have studied, into the realms of some pseudo-sciences to debunk them... and have delved deeply, truely, and looked at all possibilities have at the very least remained open to the idea that they are not 100 percent sure they are right.

And that is not because their studies conclude and don't agree with scientific logic.
And that is not because they come to no conclusion.
And that is not because they come to believe, or change their perception.
It is any of these... and/or the relative to time logic factor. Sure It may be productive to sit back in one decade and utilize every assest discovered by science, every method to ensure a valid conclusion. But what does that get you? A conclusion based on rules that you do not know will still be just in many years from now. And if you CHOOSE to believe in that now, than fine. But that makes it a faith.

I'm sorry.

IF I had the funds, I happen to know of people who know enough psychics to tell a BBC 60min program that it needs to run for say... 20 hours perhaps to cover oh so much date you don't seem to be at all familiar with. You're a waste of time. Respect that Dawkins has achieved is only akin to the respect the Pope has. It is based on relativity.

S.Hal0mega.B
02-20-2011, 12:28 AM
PART 2


Now I'm aware it appears that I am degrading Logic itself, but nothing is certain, and yes good things can and will come of it, perhaps a cure for cancer? Or perhaps cancer may evolve to help us with its regenerating assets if we find the right path to that kind of.. study. Just because science is the current trend it doesn't mean one should entitle the term 'illogical' as a superior concluding term upon what ever it puts itself down on. It just means those holding faith in it are of that mind-set, and good for them... for... NOW. :)

Just like I wish good for the buddhists, the jews, the wiccas, even though may they be right, wrong or whatever, if it helps than leave them be happy and contempt, as calling them illogical may have grounds in your religion (call it otherwise, sorry but there's no escaping what you put your faith in is that) but it only proves you're just upset and taking some kind of negativity out in the wrong places. Unproductive.

EDIT < if you've read this, and have not seen this before, you've probably read unedited posts :) they thusly will affect the outcome of your replies

Golden Eel
02-20-2011, 12:58 AM
Perhaps the feel good factor is not the proof that belief is true, but the reward, and achieving this reward is what makes it seem right and true.

So people are believing in it in order to make themselves happy? Isn't that what I said?


That works out for science as well as religion.

No. People who understand and accept science don't do so for their own well being. It's very humbling and scary to accept the world in this way, and it frightens most people. Hence most people reject it.


Logic is nothing but a way or a path we have established to understand things. Logic is as illogic as believes are. Why is 1+1=2 logic? Because we, as human beings, understand the world that way and we don't need to be told 1+1=2, we just know it.

No, real logic is based on mathematics and rules. We don't 'just know' logic, otherwise most people would be using it, don't you think?


The same goes for the believers, we all know there's something bigger that moves and balances the universe. Call it science, call it whatever you want.

No, you don't know that. You're guessing, just like science. The only difference is you're pulling your guess out of your ass and presuming it is just as viable as the scientific options.


All is about faith, I'm sorry. How do you know you have lungs? Have you ever seen YOUR lungs? Have you ever seen the color of your heart? No. You have seen other cases, how do you know your inner body is the same? Because you have faith in it. Will the sun show up tomorrow? Well, it has been rising since the beginning of times, but that is no proof enough to be sure tomorrow will happen the same. Yet, you BELIEVE it will happen.

It is not faith to believe in something which is showing you evidence. Are you really going to say 'Have you seen your lungs?' and think you've debunked the entire field of biology? It's not like scientists are just throwing shit out there. Like I've said before, science may be wrong about everything. I don't believe science is anywhere near finding it all out. But I will believe the evidence backed, tested, peer reviewed science before I will believe what a witch, shaman, priest, or homeopath tells me.


It's all faith. We live into faith, and without it, we are no humans. Science is all about objectivity, yet only objects have the quality of being objective, we, as subjects, are subjective. Don't think the universe works in order you can understand it. We are just a part of the whole, and only the whole knows what's going on.

I think it is safe to say no one knows what is going on. That fact may change in the future, and with it, my views. Science is objective because there is no emotion involved in it. Well there may be, but it will not affect the outcome of the experiment. If the experiment was emotionally skewed, it would not be able to be properly tested.


And hey, I was like MixMastahTee a few years ago. My religion was science. Now I "know" there's no truth, but portions of it. I used to have a very logical mind, and now I'm in a very different life situation. I've changed, my father started learning hypnosis and I can tell you the body works very different from what you've been told. We are symbolic, abstract and spiritual beings. Don't treat life like you treat your computer. There's no equation, there's no answer. And maybe you'll be closer to the truth when you assume there is not any. There is life, so enjoy it.

Indeed, most people forgoe their logic and take a double portion of emotion. Emotion is strong kiddies, but if you know anything about how the brain works, you know why that is. I don't care if you dad is fooling you and made you stray from common sense, that doesn't make the human body any different than science claims. Simply because you found a new life path doesn't change anything. It means your brain has been compromised with emotion, it doesn't mean all of science is suddenly wrong.


MixMastahTee My god, when are you going to understand, as I can assume you are quite capable of, that LOGIC is based only along the guidelines I laid out earlier that Enigma just above this post pointed out with more clarity. I'm sorry if you don't like the facts of life. But logic is.... what we want it to be. and what we are are emotional beings.

Wrong. Logic is based on mathematical rules. You are not a skeptic, or you would know that. You think I believe what I want to believe? Not at all. I could easily leave logic behind and believe in any number of paranormal nonsense to make myself happy. But the pure fact of selling my critical thinking to replace it with happiness seems like a sad existance, ironically.


It's not our faults we're right and/or wrong, but it is your fault you can't see this and well, you remind me of an old friend who had his mind trapped on something and wouldn't let go, would snap a counter-arguement every time... that old friend was me. Before I grew up.

It's your fault you don't seem to understand my point or logic. Do some research before you respond anymore, please.


Sorry buddy but it is outdated to restrict one's veiws to a single time and space of scientific discovery

Uh, outdated? This is absolute nonsense. It would be utterly illogical to believe in something because it might be proven in 1,000 years. Now the more logical step would be to believe that when it happened.


Those who give money to scientists are of a certain opinion. That opinion (not all the time, but enough) affects the results if the person giving the money is unhappy, this has happened time and time again.

No, I understand you. You're just wrong. Opinions can't really affect a scientific test. If a scientist tried to publish something that was wrong and was only backed by a lot of money, they'd be told to fuck off by the scientific community. However if they were paid a shitton of money to find something and succeeded, it could then be tested and peer-reviewed. If it is real science, it will stick - regardless of the doner's intentions.


Not only that, Science is restricted to the thought patterns of today, which unfortunately will evolve, and because they will evolve (hopefully) our minds will obviously credit logic as restricted to its relativity in time and space and thus current knowledge

Do you know anything about evolution? We don't really have a need for a larger brain anymore. The human species is probably as far evolved as it is going to get.


With logic relative to now, logic restricted and hinded by the way your mind filters it due to what YOU know. Your logic is something personal. It is also, I repeat, relative only to today, thus cancelling out most things because like I said, the only thing (perhaps) that is certain is death

Again, you don't seem to understand formal logic. It is mathematics. It is objective and clear seeing, not fogged by emotion. It is exactly the same for every person and every circumstance. It is simply that people like to use their own version of skewed thinking and call it logic.


You read that before I edited it, sorry buddy, but you've also been put in the 'hey, i haven't read enough research' spotlight. I will not waste my time because the way your mind filters logic and reality doesn't rise to the level of respect I would bestow for such information. It sounds grand, but it's not really.

Again, a logical fallacy. You're the person making the extraordinary claim. The burden of proof is on you, not the person who doesn't believe it.

Golden Eel
02-20-2011, 12:59 AM
Are you on drugs? WHAT UFOs are is yet to be proven. THEY have been proved to exist. Jeez, you're seriously skipping words with those eyes of yours

So someone has proved that they saw something unidentifiable in the sky? So?


Because those funding the scientific research and even the scientists themselves have certain beliefs, some, if not quite a bit of scientific results for all kinds of studies are hinded by the fact that... if the results do not agree with the current scientific mainstream (the mind of the scientist and his source of money) than they will be outed or considered pseudo-science.

If the outcomes disagrees with anyone, it doesn't make it any less scientific.


OR perhaps something called - 'progress' - will occur. There's a whole host of situations and outcomes to that scene. Sorry about that but the many possible outcomes have been all kinds of death machines and viruses... as well as things that have done good.

Science doesn't (shouldn't) set out to do these things. They set out to find out more about the cosmos. If the goverment or any other asshole humans in charge who think too emotionally choose to use these findings for horrible things, so be it. Do you think the scientists involved in Project Manhattan had the intentions of killing many people?


But this is not a competition, not that anyone is saying so. Otherwise, despite how much it pissses me off, the idea of a fundamental muslim or even YOU being right could actually come to be, if there were not the fact of the 'constant relative to time' factor, in justifying one's logic from a certain time period.

Sure, I agree that what science believes about the universe will change drastically in the future. What I'm saying is that it is awfully presumptuous to jump ahead of science and say "Well science might prove this to be true in the future, so I'll believe it now."


Logic itself is hinded by its time in the grand timeline, and if you want to believe (Yes believe ,it is a religion) that current logic works, sure thing. But there are certain facts that even current logic ignores. But even those facts can be disputed... see... nothing is certain. The only key to gaining anything through logic is keeping an open mind and respect balanced with skeptism, which you are not doing

Logic - The mathematical study of relationships between rigorously defined concepts and of proof of statements.

Religion - a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny.

Not sure how anyone could ever get those two mixed up, well unless they didn't know what either of them meant.


I see the idea of treating others how you would want to be treated as possibly progressive. But just because I allow myself to see that even dogma holds a possibility of reality above all that we may never live to see, it doesn't mean i believe it. And yes, sometimes it can be obvious people are using it as something to fill a hole, just like goth trends and athiesm can be used to fill a hole

I see the idea of helping to stamping out worldwide mass-delusion as far more progressive than tolerating it. Our species would have so much more potential if humans could leave behind the feel-good fairy tales.


Yes! And I'm so sorry, i did not know he was 'untouchable' lol.

Don't worry, I'm quite honored.


IF I had the funds, I happen to know of people who know enough psychics to tell a BBC 60min program that it needs to run for say... 20 hours perhaps to cover oh so much date you don't seem to be at all familiar with. You're a waste of time. Respect that Dawkins has achieved is only akin to the respect the Pope has. It is based on relativity.

Why haven't they come forward and had their abilities proven scientifically? James Randi is offering $1,000,000 to them, that seems like a good enough reason to try and prove yourself to me.


Just because science is the current trend it doesn't mean one should entitle the term 'illogical' as a superior concluding term upon what ever it puts itself down on.

That's exactly what science means though. Science is not equal to all other belief systems, to equate them is simply showing a lack of understanding.


Just like I wish good for the buddhists, the jews, the wiccas, even though may they be right, wrong or whatever, if it helps than leave them be happy and contempt, as calling them illogical may have grounds in your religion (call it otherwise, sorry but there's no escaping what you put your faith in is that) but it only proves you're just upset and taking some kind of negativity out in the wrong places. Unproductive.


Again, most people are enablers and that is a very negative idea. Tolerating this mass-delusion, as I've said before, is intellectual devolution. We aren't going to evolve physically, but the way society views life needs to evolve very much. We have nuclear missles, yet most of the world believes in religion and pseudo-scientific nonsense. Doesn't seem like a good match to me.

Also, you can't just call anything you want a religion.

S.Hal0mega.B
02-20-2011, 03:02 AM
Ahh no matter what someone says, I think you're just going to see your side of it. This isn't a debate anymore, and this isn't what it was in the begining, people expressing their opinions, it's people like you that make me wonder nothing at all. What a sad mind.

I pity you.

ThreeEyedGod
02-20-2011, 03:59 AM
In all that is holy, let us bury this thread.

But really what this thread should have been titled: Do you believe in illogical fairy tales and absurd, antiquated dogmas?

Golden Eel
02-20-2011, 04:12 AM
In all that is holy, let us bury this thread.

But really what this thread should have been titled: Do you believe in illogical fairy tales and absurd, antiquated dogmas?

Oh, because this forum is full of activity, I'm wasting so much precious space? Don't post if you're so sensitive.

And if a mod would like to alter the title, yours is more fitting.

Enigma
02-20-2011, 05:45 AM
MixMastahTee, you're like my science teacher, an arrogant adult child who though the world was in his hands. And you're way worse than a blind catholic, really. You hold the cross of science and you'd die for it. I won't write anything else in here as I've seen it's useless, because you won't understand any point of view besides yours. You are the only believer here man, and I think a bit obsessive.


No, real logic is based on mathematics and rules. We don't 'just know' logic, otherwise most people would be using it, don't you think?

You still don't get it. There's no REAL anything. There's no rules. We create the rules. We establish them. There's no logic for a chair or a spoon yet "they" exist in the same world as we are. It's all subjective, so an objective point of view is, my little boy, a lie.


It is not faith to believe in something which is showing you evidence. Are you really going to say 'Have you seen your lungs?' and think you've debunked the entire field of biology? It's not like scientists are just throwing shit out there. Like I've said before, science may be wrong about everything. I don't believe science is anywhere near finding it all out. But I will believe the evidence backed, tested, peer reviewed science before I will believe what a witch, shaman, priest, or homeopath tells me.

I'm not against science. But it's not the solution. You know what? Half of the human deseases come from ourselves. Most of the cancers are selfgenerated, no consciously, of course. And we fight them with agressivity, with chemo, not knowing we have much more power to cure them ourselves than an extern agent has. Most of the problems we develope as adults come from childhood traumas. MOST of it. And with hypnosis, you can access to the subconscious part of the mind and search for them to heal them. The people who have studied this are also not throwing shit out there, and this is older than science boy. And let me tell you it works as I've seen it and experience it, I didn't believe it at first but I started reading and reading, and it all had sense. Life is weird, so I have to open my mind to weird things in order to live it properly. Evidences? Of what? Of the things you've seen. You should know that if there is a 1000 people collective and it's shown 300 of them have a heart, that doesn't mean that ALL of them have one. And that's a logic statement. Because you haven't seen all the cases, so you can't talk about the whole. In that way, science is about faith. You have seen an 1% of things and you/they talk about the world based on that. Hey, and that's perfect, is the part they have studied so they have to be based on that, that's ok. But everything that is not the exact studied cases is faith.


Indeed, most people forgoe their logic and take a double portion of emotion. Emotion is strong kiddies, but if you know anything about how the brain works, you know why that is. I don't care if you dad is fooling you and made you stray from common sense, that doesn't make the human body any different than science claims. Simply because you found a new life path doesn't change anything. It means your brain has been compromised with emotion, it doesn't mean all of science is suddenly wrong.

Well, this is beyond stupid, really. Are you ever going to understand that emotion is all we have? If you have 2 ways to choose, which one will you pick? One is full of colorful pretty flowers and the other one is grey, creeppy and full of blackberry bushes. I'm sure you'll choose the first one, and you'd say based on a objective decision, but no. You choose the first because you know if you go through the second you'll probably get cut and you will feel pain, so it brings you bad emotions and you prefer the other. Because there is no logical better option, only better option for you, as a human being, that feel pain when going throw the bushes and cutting his legs. ALL the decisions are emotion. We decide because we have emotions, not because we can think "logically". And you have no idea of how many arguements I had with my science teacher just because he was like you, and he wanted me to be on his side, because he said "i had to be scientist" and shit like that. I have always being good at science but I don't care. You're still in that part of your life where you think the world is one way and everyone has to see it like that, and someday (I really hope, because you seem an intelligent yet close-minded person) you'll see life has no other meaning than living it. Everything else are speculations, logic is illogic, reality is not real and death is not death, is also life.

We are spiritual beings who want to think by "logic". And that's a mistake, we have to deal with what we are. So it's your mistake to treat me like an idiot not knowing a thing about me, but it's your decision. Because you're protecting yourself, protecting your home so it cannot be destroyed. Why are you defending with such strong behaviour your ideas? Because you simply feel they are right. You, sorry again, don't know a thing about anything. Grow up.

Norsefire
02-20-2011, 11:19 AM
I really don't understand this thread, from looking over it, sorry if I am wrong but it seems MixMastahTee wants everyone to say what they believe in and then he tries to walk in and trash it.

People are free to believe in whatever the hell they want, whatever makes them happy, whatever makes their lives better.
I really don't believe in much at all my views are similar to what S.D. posted, but everything is interesting to me. I'm really not going to try and trash anyone's beliefs if it makes their lives better and I enjoy reading or watching programmes on what people do believe in.

I saw Aliens mentioned in the thread... I know there is no way right now to prove they exist, but I think it would be incredibly dumb to believe we are the only planet with life on it. I remember having classes at school talking about other planets out there having the same conversations as ours, about life on other planets, and I've always enjoyed that thought.
I believe there could be planets out there just like ours with humans on it, and I'm sure there could also be some nasty aliens out there as well.

But I guess I will never know, since it could be a long time until we find stuff like that out, and slightly off topic, but the future of the world and life is something that annoys me. Because I know I'm not going to be able to see how far life goes because I, like all of us here will be dead.
I saw a programme on people actually freezing their bodies to be brought back to life in the future. I think some had incurable illnesses, so it was either die or take the risk and to be frozen. They hope in the future they can be brought back to life and cured, assuming the future we can bring them back and that the methods used today to freeze them aren't the wrong ones.

Golden Eel
02-20-2011, 11:44 AM
People are free to believe in whatever the hell they want, whatever makes them happy, whatever makes their lives better.
I really don't believe in much at all my views are similar to what S.D. posted, but everything is interesting to me. I'm really not going to try and trash anyone's beliefs if it makes their lives better and I enjoy reading or watching programmes on what people do believe in.

Ah, you seem quite accepting of what people choose to believe. So you probably wouldn't ever say something bashing someone's beliefs like...


I think it would be incredibly dumb to believe we are the only planet with life on it.

Wait... You bash me for "trashing" what people believe, then a paragraph later you decide to call someone's beliefs dumb.

For the record, I agree with your point. It is dumb to assume we're so special to be the only life in the universe. Just like it is dumb to believe any number of paranormal ideas.

I don't even need to explain what I mean by this thread, because you clearly understand where I'm coming from. It's very frustrating to you to hear people say there are no aliens, just like it is very frustrating to me to hear things which totally slap the laws of physics in the face.

Norsefire
02-20-2011, 11:54 AM
Ah, you seem quite accepting of what people choose to believe. So you probably wouldn't ever say something bashing someone's beliefs like...



Wait... You bash me for "trashing" what people believe, then a paragraph later you decide to call someone's beliefs dumb.



lol true, I probably shouldn't of phrased it like that actually, but if people didn't want to believe I wouldn't get into a whole prove it/or disprove it argument with them. I'm quite happy with people around me believing in a variety of different things, and like I said, I'm interested in hearing it all, even if it's not something I believe in.

timoldbean
02-20-2011, 12:10 PM
"I really don't understand this thread, from looking over it, sorry if I am wrong but it seems MixMastahTee wants everyone to say what they believe in and then he tries to walk in and trash it."
Essentially, that's what I got from it too - and not suprisingly this arrogance has turned it into a sour debate. & however enjoyable debates can be, I can't see this being beneficial to anyone other than probing people to stand up and stick to their beliefs moreso than before.

I find the better conversations come when both parties have the capacity to consider the possibility they can be wrong and have the interest to talk in order to gain towards an understanding of something, rather than opening discussion with the sole purpose to prove how right they're way of thinking is.... but on topics as personal as these, it mostly just leads to frustration / anger.

ThreeEyedGod
02-20-2011, 12:39 PM
Oh, because this forum is full of activity, I'm wasting so much precious space? Don't post if you're so sensitive.

And if a mod would like to alter the title, yours is more fitting.

Again with the put downs. In what way am I being "sensitive"? I've been more than willing to put up with our little back and forth friendly banter without coming off as bitter and huffy.You are the one that is coming off all *gasp* emotional when others are not seeing eye to eye with you. And i was halfway kidding about locking the thread, but do you really think this thread can can continue to accomplish anything other than tension and schism? I highly suspect that this is the reason why some many of the members on here refrain from even posting on here because they possess enough logic to know that all of this rarely ends up pleasantly; there is a reason mainstream society shuns on discussing religion and politics in public. Or perhaps you are just filtering out all the illogical weaklings and flagging them for the next time you decide to have another one of your debates? I'm sorry i won't be able to partake.



S.D, I beg of you in the name of Allah; please change the title! No really. J/k.

And for the record I love science and and am deeply interested in it. I also never understood the great divide of science and religion as I see them deeply intertwined with each other.

Doppelgänger
02-20-2011, 01:16 PM
panties and bunches

timoldbean
02-20-2011, 01:45 PM
So people are believing in it in order to make themselves happy? Isn't that what I said?

You've answered you're own question - 'why do people believe in these things?'. It's logical that people will believe things that comfort them, or finds them peace, or otherwise benefits them emotionally. That's understandable.

Now there's a logical reason why people believe illogical things it contradicts you as soon as you equate logic with right and illogical with wrong as your then left with 'it's right to believe wrong things'. That's not what you've been saying at all.


No. People who understand and accept science don't do so for their own well being.

How do you know this to be true?


It's very humbling and scary to accept the world in this way, and it frightens most people. Hence most people reject it.

Where's the proof that it frightens most people? Where did you get this from?

Procrastinator
02-20-2011, 02:19 PM
MixMastahTee, what's gotten into you? Seriously, from as much as I've known you and reading your posts in this thread, they seem very unlike you. Science VS religion/paranormal? Come on!

Cringeon
02-20-2011, 02:32 PM
It's been really refreshing to read all the members views and beliefs, regardless of the OPs purpose to try and argue it (which really just seems brought on not by any desire to actually debate but to just argue). Faiths to me kind of go with imagination in a way, in that it's always caused people to think beyond the things that couldn't be answered by science. Not that some god is what inspired someone, but I think the belief in something greater is what caused people to search out and look deeper.

And in a way, I think science can be approach as a belief or faith. There are not-exact sciences, there are things still out for debate, and even some theories that probably can't be answered in our lifetimes. And I'm sure amongst science you'll find people with completely different theories or "belief" in things that might be contrary to what we know, or don't know at this time.

Golden Eel
02-20-2011, 03:13 PM
lol true, I probably shouldn't of phrased it like that actually, but if people didn't want to believe I wouldn't get into a whole prove it/or disprove it argument with them. I'm quite happy with people around me believing in a variety of different things, and like I said, I'm interested in hearing it all, even if it's not something I believe in.

And this is what I hate. (Let me be clear - I hate this viewpoint, not you.) There are so many people like me who believe all of this is nonsense, yet society has trained them that beliefs are sacred and everyone's opinion is equally correct so they won't confront people who believe it.


Again with the put downs.

I have no intention of insulting anyone. I'm insulting beliefs, sure, but I hold nothing against anyone who holds the beliefs. I believe my views are better than others', but I know most of the people in this thread are probably better people than me.


there is a reason mainstream society shuns on discussing religion and politics in public.

Yes, because people intertwine beliefs and emotions. I would love for someone to come up to me and say "Hey, your beliefs are wrong!" and then explain why. But when you say something like "Well logic isn't real, nothing is real, it's all human ideas and stuff, man." that completely rules out any type of civilized debate.


And for the record I love science and and am deeply interested in it. I also never understood the great divide of science and religion as I see them deeply intertwined with each other.

So you can't find the hundreds of scientific inaccuracies in every ancient religious text?


panties and bunches

Indeed.


You've answered you're own question - 'why do people believe in these things?'. It's logical that people will believe things that comfort them, or finds them peace, or otherwise benefits them emotionally. That's understandable.

It's logical that emotional beings will think emotionally, yes. I understand why people believe things that comfort them. However, what separates us from animals is our ability to think (also known as logic.) The further down the emotional ladder you go, the further away your beliefs are from logical. And vice versa. I'm not saying emotion is evil and not to feel it, I'm saying you shouldn't let your emotions decide what you believe. Your logic is what separates you from animals.


How do you know this to be true?

Science is not very emotionally pleasing to most people, especially compared with the fantastic offers religions makes. I believe I would be happier if I could convince myself that a religion was true, but I could never bring myself to believe any of it.


Where's the proof that it frightens most people? Where did you get this from?

I should rephrase what I said. Death frightens people. Science says when you die, you cease to exist in any form. That is scarier than going to Heaven/other religious afterlives to many people.


MixMastahTee, what's gotten into you? Seriously, from as much as I've known you and reading your posts in this thread, they seem very unlike you. Science VS religion/paranormal? Come on!

Jeez, everyone. It seems I'm the only one on the earth who doesn't seem to view 'beliefs' as some hybrid elephant in the room/sacred cow. There is no reason I should respect what you believe. People equate that with me having no respect for the person who holds them. It takes quite a bit more than religious/spiritual/etc difference for me to lose respect for someone.

Also I've just been in a debating mood, I honestly didn't think this thread would rustle so many feathers though. And yes science vs. paranormal. One of my largest annoyances is the constant parading of nonsense in the public eye which is disguised as legitimate science. Have you seen homeopathic medicine (sugar pills)? They sell it in stores next to the real medicine. Things like this should be illegal, lying to the public about such important things.

timoldbean
02-20-2011, 03:34 PM
Science is not very emotionally pleasing to most people, especially compared with the fantastic offers religions makes. I believe I would be happier if I could convince myself that a religion was true, but I could never bring myself to believe any of it.
You've only reinstated what you've already said and elaborated by imagining what you could do. You've yet to still offer any proof that 'science is not very emotionally pleasing to most people'. So what has made you arrive at this opinion ... or are you making a claim for which there is no evidence for?

Procrastinator
02-20-2011, 03:38 PM
And in a way, I think science can be approach as a belief or faith.

As a person who questions everything, I entirely agree with this. It also reminded me of another quote that went something like, 'If science denies everything it doesn't have an answer for, then it is no different than religion', which I also agree with and think is relevant to this thread.

I think science is a great tool in man's hands when used for the right purpose, such as improving standard of living and knowing more about ourselves, our planet and space, but it's hands are tied by the big bad greedy corporations and most of its achievements don't really get to people. Furthermore, it doesn't get to people who need it just for the sake of having something to eat, fresh water to drink, etc., which is a damn shame but also not profitable. Otherwise, in my opinion, science is humanity's only hope for well, survival. Which doesn't mean I subscribe to the idea that it has all the answers, quite the contrary- I sometimes even think all our knowledge may be based on facts that are untrue.

As for religion, astrology, the occult and paranormal, I think they are very interesting and worth reading about for the sake of self-education. I would just like to point out that I despise the way religion is being used for manipulation, keeping people as ignorant and uneducated as possible and the starting of wars. That is just disgusting and yet another product of our dear old, outdated monetary economics system.

On a side note, for some reason I literally cannot stand being inside a church. When I am inside one (admiring the architecture for example), I feel irritated, as if I'm suffocating and only think of getting the fuck out of it. My boyfriend jokes about this and calls me "devil's child".

Golden Eel
02-20-2011, 03:58 PM
As a person who questions everything, I entirely agree with this. It also reminded me of another quote that went something like, 'If science denies everything it doesn't have an answer for, then it is no different than religion', which I also agree with and think is relevant to this thread.

My point is not that "everything science says is true and nothing else is possible". I've said before, science is ever changing and doesn't deny anything. There is a difference between saying "This is false." and saying "This has no evidence to prove it yet." There are many things I believe (this is where my opinion comes into play) would be possible that science hasn't accepted yet. It's just that man-made religions and stories aren't included.

My point is that science should be used as the lens with which to weigh the options of something being true, as opposed to an emotional lens. That doesn't mean you have to view every claim science makes as true, but just use basic logic and critical thinking when making decisions about what you accept as truth. Using your emotion to mold your beliefs can make you very happy, sure. Emotion goes both ways, though. With happiness comes anger, which we all know can result in events like the Holocaust, racism in general, religious wars, people like Westboro Baptist Church, etc. When people use their emotion as a lens to choose their beliefs, they can become so passionate in them they do horrible things to justify them.


I despise the way religion is being used for manipulation, keeping people as ignorant and uneducated as possible and the starting of wars. That is just disgusting and yet another product of our dear old, outdated monetary economics system.

Why don't you feel this way about the rest of the paranormal?

Golden Eel
02-20-2011, 04:03 PM
You've only reinstated what you've already said and elaborated by imagining what you could do. You've yet to still offer any proof that 'science is not very emotionally pleasing to most people'. So what has made you arrive at this opinion ... or are you making a claim for which there is no evidence for?

You said that people believe in the paranormal because it makes them feel nice.
Most people on earth believe in the paranormal.
Therefore I'd say it is safe to say most people are less emotionally pleased by the thought of science, as opposed to the thought of the paranormal.

timoldbean
02-20-2011, 04:34 PM
You said that people believe in the paranormal because it makes them feel nice.
I was more suggesting that the satisfaction (or 'feel good' factor) emphasises conviction, as well as satisfaction itself being the outcome ... they each compliment each other. But yeah, in a simplified way, that's what I said.


Most people on earth believe in the paranormal.
Where did you get this from?


Therefore I'd say it is safe to say most people are less emotionally pleased by the thought of science, as opposed to the thought of the paranormal.
Could be true if your second point holds up.

Golden Eel
02-20-2011, 04:39 PM
Where did you get this from?

I think we all can agree that the majority of the world is religious, no?

timoldbean
02-20-2011, 04:46 PM
I think we all can agree that the majority of the world is religious, no?

I see .. didn't quite equate paranormal to religion.

Might not just be the 'thought of' but the 'experience of' too... they both bring their joy/pain, perhaps mostly in science - don't have to be scientifically minded (or minded at all!) to enjoy the benefits of science. Suppose you have to be open and accepting to religion to benefit from it. (..other to be on the receiving end of their charity).

Golden Eel
02-20-2011, 04:47 PM
I see .. didn't quite equate paranormal to religion.

Isn't religion by definition the worship of a supernatural idea or being?

Procrastinator
02-20-2011, 04:53 PM
My point is not that "everything science says is true and nothing else is possible".

When did I say that this was your point? The quote I included in my post was just relevant to this thread, not directed at you personally. Although I do not understand why you feel the need to question people's beliefs in (as you call them) 'alternative ideas' instead of accepting the fact that a lot of them just like to feel the security of such, even if it's just for their own piece of mind whether they realize it or not? Why does everything have to be logical or proven? Because logic gives you a sense of security just like the belief in 'alternative ideas' gives the same to those who believe in them?




Why don't you feel this way about the rest of the paranormal?

I have never heard of a war being started because of astrology, aliens, etc., although they can be used as a form of public manipulation. But they're clearly not as powerful of a weapon as religion.

S.D.
02-20-2011, 05:01 PM
I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm trying to tear apart their opinions with logic.
Logic is as logic does, it's not the most important or tangible human correspondence tool. You seem to think it is, and are using that as a device to be frankly, quite rude to people. Not abusive, or contrary to the forum rules (I'm not wearing my Administrator's hat or anything here), simply rude.

Let's try something different on for size. You're nineteen, I'm twenty-five. Those are irrefutable facts (unless you're lying about your age). One could be logical and say the slight advance in years I have on you means I have lived more, had more experience and time to develop how I think about the world, and therefore my opinions outweigh and disprove yours in some capacity. That's not true, and only an idiot would think it was, but logic could certainly suggest so. That's if we were using logic as a flimsy way of saying "anything I have to express is correct because I prefixed it with a word synonymous with evidence". Sometimes logic shoots itself in the foot, by nature of being so rigid, basically.
You're not stupid, but you are arrogant about how you challenge other people's ideas. I'm indifferent to that arrogance, I'm not using the word as an insult, it's an observation, you're a cool chap, but in this discussion your approach is as tunnel-visioned as someone who won't budge on why they have a god.


I haven't even put my opinions out there, all I've said is that logic dictates not believing in things without evidence. I never said either one of us is correct, I said it's illogical to believe in something without evidence. There is a huge difference.
Can anyone provide me any proof to believe in any of these things?
Why do you need proof of how someone feels? I believe in mutual respect, love, friendship, trying to be a "good" person, (despite knowing good is a human construct, I quite like it), a bit of chivalry now and then, etc. They're all made-up things, we can still be animals if we want to, but it might destroy some aspects of "evolution".
If I wanted to be truly scientific, I'd think "right, I'm a mammal, I have proven primitive urges to fight, fuck, and conquer, regardless of whether the recipient enjoys it". My emotions, and knowledge of cultural history, appreciation of developed social structures and other human beings' emotional and physical wellbeing gives me a stronger urge, and so I don't do those things.

Not everything has to have existed before we put a name on it to be correct or admirable, the only things we ever truly know are what we feel and what we have seen. So what if a "ghost" was an illusion created by neural toxins? Does that make the experience of seeing it any less profound or memorable for the individual? I appreciate it's not the same as a genuine presence of a formerly alive person in some non-corporeal form, but it is still an event, we still have to call it something.
I saw a spectral figure between two blinks of the eye once, in a car late at night. I am well aware it was probably a result of being tired, rapidness of the blinks, tricks of the light etc, but I still saw it, it was still there in my frame of perception. Logic doesn't have to be something we use to immediately disprove things, it can happily sit beside the fantastic, the unexplainable, the unlikely. They actually make rather good bedfellows if you're open-minded enough to let them.


Again with my views. No I don't want people to believe what I believe. I want people to believe and use logic.
So you do want them to believe what you believe, because you have stated many times you believe in the application of logic to decide whether an idea or phenomenon has validity.


Yet you say later on that you don't go around telling people what they should believe. So you know which human behavioural trends are negative, yet you don't see worldwide mass-delusion as one of those?
Yup, I totally do, which is why I said I wish to have no part in them. As you said, I haven't "put all my opinions out there". I've got many opinions on religion, and how terrible a thing it can sometimes be, but that's not what the question of this topic relates to. I don't believe in what millions of people consider "god", but that doesn't mean I don't like the concept of something that is personal to someone and gives their life structure.


Surely you see the false equivalency? Science creates tools for people to do good or evil with. It is inherently nuetral. Religion is a catalyst, it is what creates the good or evil which the people who believe it feel.As I said, science could easily do that as well if we were to submit to our primitive urges. There's no tools involved in killing or raping a person, it's carried out because the perpetrator convinced themselves they had the right to do so over someone else's free will. That's the same as the hold religion has over people.
Science has suggested that love and happiness are fallacies, neurological reactions to chemicals and stimuli. If I let the application of science cast a shadow over everything I like to experience, well, I'd be a fucking dullard, quite plainly. Sometimes we need a fantasy alternative to what we know to be scientific fact, it makes life more bearable, it makes the pain seem a little less futile. That approach isn't about belief, it's about the warm glow of reassurance. Whether it's knowingly false or not, sometimes the human brain just requires inconsistency.


Also, which elements of dogma do you see as progressive?Sometimes dogmatic structures sculpt really pleasant, considerate, kind people. Sure, feel free to see them as delusional, but like the kid with an invisible friend in school because he can't make any real ones, sometimes the delusion is more pure and beautiful than the reality. I'm not applying that solely to religion either, to clarify.
Perhaps progressive was a slight word mis-use, let's be a bit more broad and say 'positive' instead.


I'm asking people how they justify why they believe something for which the main evidence is emotion.
Because emotions make us who we are, without them, we would be automatons with nothing but bland, purely functional lives. I don't need logic and evidence for everything, just the situations where I don't want to be a cunt to people, or I need a straightforward answer for something I'm desperate to understand.


No, real logic is based on mathematics and rules. We don't 'just know' logic, otherwise most people would be using it, don't you think? It is mathematics. It is objective and clear seeing, not fogged by emotion.
I rather like being fogged by emotion sometimes, it reminds me that there's something going on in my head that I don't remotely want a scientific explanation for. Occasionally science is like the DVD extra that explains in painstakingly boring detail how the optical illusion you saw in the movie was created. Sometimes I just don't care, I don't want to know, I prefer the simplicity of enjoying a lie.
I'm also not concerned how closeted that may make me seem, I hated mathematics in school, and was no good at it. I enjoy literature, and excelled in that academically. I also have a degree in studying film. Films are lies, they are after-events, they're not real, but people base their lives around characters, stories, false scenarios and made-up nonsense. Logical? No. Peaceful? Yes.


Emotion is strong kiddies. You see, when you start calling a group of fellow adults "kiddies", it more or less drives home the fact that you arrogantly think yourself superior. There's no need for it.


But really what this thread should have been titled: Do you believe in illogical fairy tales and absurd, antiquated dogmas?
Maybe, it stays as is though, the topic was started in a certain way, any deviation from that is in the posts.


When you say something like "Well logic isn't real, nothing is real, it's all human ideas and stuff, man." that completely rules out any type of civilized debate.
In much the same way as suggesting that logic is the only valid and acceptable way of discussing "alternative ideas", I'd wager.


I'm not saying emotion is evil and not to feel it, I'm saying you shouldn't let your emotions decide what you believe. Your logic is what separates you from animals.I like animals, they don't start wars, they never created the A-Bomb, and they don't have priests who abuse children. Maybe if we took a bit more notice of what they've figured out we'd be happier as a species. And I'll decide whether I let my emotions dictate what I believe, thank you.


Have you seen homeopathic medicine (sugar pills)? They sell it in stores next to the real medicine. Things like this should be illegal, lying to the public about such important things. Yeah, there's a lot of useless shit peddled to people out there, but at the end of the day, if its creation didn't exploit anyone, and it doesn't ostensibly damage the economy, it's not my problem if someone's stupid enough to buy into it. But I think that about fashion, fast-food, perpetual micro-technology, and the myriad of creature comforts people convince themselves they need. That's almost worse than religion to me; blind consumerism.


No I don't believe in such stuff, but it's worth knowing something about such topics as many women are interested in them, and they are good topics to start a conversation with a women.


http://www.providermodule.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/EMDM_Candid_81.jpg

timoldbean
02-20-2011, 05:02 PM
Isn't religion by definition the worship of a supernatural idea or being?
Yeah - when you said paranormal, didn't quite conjure up the same associations to me as religion does - but I see where your coming from.

It's been an interesting thread (I say been, but only because I don't fancy spending any more of a headache trying to get around putting down and have to explain / debate so much) - it's been worth it from some of the good responses here ... the more articulate people seem to share my viewpoint for the most part so I'm thankful that it's out there & expressed in a way that's well put.

Golden Eel
02-20-2011, 05:10 PM
When did I say that this was your point? The quote I included in my post was just relevant to this thread, not directed at you personally.

Ah sorry, my response was meant to be more general as well.


Although I do not understand why you feel the need to question people's beliefs in (as you call them) 'alternative ideas' instead of accepting the fact that a lot of them just like to feel the security of such, even if it's just for their own piece of mind whether they realize it or not?

But you agree that organized religion is evil, right? Well before the leaders of the religion can exploit the followers, they must first exploit their emotional vulnerabilities to get them to believe in the religion. So you disagree with the fact that religious leaders exploit the followers, while I disagree with the fact that the followers let themselves get exploited.


Why does everything have to be logical or proven?

Like I've said, logic separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom.


Because logic gives you a sense of security just like the belief in 'alternative ideas' gives the same to those who believe in them?

But logic doesn't make me happy or give me a sense of security at all. That's why I believe it's much scarier for humans to accept. I would rather accept the whole truth than have it altered to ease the emotional blow.


I have never heard of a war being started because of astrology, aliens, etc., although they can be used as a form of public manipulation. But they're clearly not as powerful of a weapon as religion.

But there have been many wars started because of religions. Choosing to believe in religion relies on the same building blocks as choosing to believe in astrology, homeopathy, the Occult - basing your beliefs off of your emotions. You can't rid the world of religion until you rid of the world of emotionally based decision making.

Golden Eel
02-20-2011, 06:06 PM
Let's try something different on for size. You're nineteen, I'm twenty-five. Those are irrefutable facts (unless you're lying about your age). One could be logical and say the slight advance in years I have on you means I have lived more, had more experience and time to develop how I think about the world, and therefore my opinions outweigh and disprove yours in some capacity. That's not true, and only an idiot would think it was, but logic could certainly suggest so.

Well actually logic would not suggest that to be true. That's actually a logical fallacy known as argument from authority. Simply because you hold a "higher" title than me (age in this case) doesn't imply you are any more correct than me in a logical stance.


Why do you need proof of how someone feels? I believe in mutual respect, love, friendship, trying to be a "good" person, (despite knowing good is a human construct, I quite like it), a bit of chivalry now and then, etc. They're all made-up things, we can still be animals if we want to, but it might destroy some aspects of "evolution".

I agree with all of these things too.


If I wanted to be truly scientific, I'd think "right, I'm a mammal, I have proven primitive urges to fight, fuck, and conquer, regardless of whether the recipient enjoys it". My emotions, and knowledge of cultural history, appreciation of developed social structures and other human beings' emotional and physical wellbeing gives me a stronger urge, and so I don't do those things.

Isn't your "knowledge of cultural history, appreciation of developed social structures and other human beings' emotional and physical wellbeing" all based on the logic you use being a human? If you wanted to be truly scientific, you would think "I'm a mammal, but I'm also a human capable of using logic which dictates I don't kill and rape and conquer."


Not everything has to have existed before we put a name on it to be correct or admirable, the only things we ever truly know are what we feel and what we have seen. So what if a "ghost" was an illusion created by neural toxins? Does that make the experience of seeing it any less profound or memorable for the individual? I appreciate it's not the same as a genuine presence of a formerly alive person in some non-corporeal form, but it is still an event, we still have to call it something.
I saw a spectral figure between two blinks of the eye once, in a car late at night. I am well aware it was probably a result of being tired, rapidness of the blinks, tricks of the light etc, but I still saw it, it was still there in my frame of perception. Logic doesn't have to be something we use to immediately disprove things, it can happily sit beside the fantastic, the unexplainable, the unlikely. They actually make rather good bedfellows if you're open-minded enough to let them.

Sure, be open minded about it. That is fine with me. But saying "it was a ghost and I'm sure of it" is a different story. I have no problem really with people accepting that some paranormal things may in fact be real, it's when they start accepting it as absolute truth until proven otherwise that I have an issue with.


So you do want them to believe what you believe, because you have stated many times you believe in the application of logic to decide whether an idea or phenomenon has validity.

Yes, I admit I want them to believe that logic is the clearer lens with which to view life. But simply because we both look at life through a logical lens doesn't mean we have to come to the same conclusion. You get what I'm saying? If I'm not quite any clearer, please let me know.


Yup, I totally do, which is why I said I wish to have no part in them.

You and I are basically two sides of the same coin. We hold the same views on these ideas (from what I gather), but you are passive about it and I am active.


As I said, science could easily do that as well if we were to submit to our primitive urges. There's no tools involved in killing or raping a person, it's carried out because the perpetrator convinced themselves they had the right to do so over someone else's free will. That's the same as the hold religion has over people.

Science doesn't have a mind, it doesn't have a concept of good or evil. It is inherently neutral. So again science wouldn't be the one doing the harm, it would be the humans succombing to their primitive urges (aka emotion.)


Science has suggested that love and happiness are fallacies, neurological reactions to chemicals and stimuli. If I let the application of science cast a shadow over everything I like to experience, well, I'd be a fucking dullard, quite plainly. Sometimes we need a fantasy alternative to what we know to be scientific fact, it makes life more bearable, it makes the pain seem a little less futile. That approach isn't about belief, it's about the warm glow of reassurance. Whether it's knowingly false or not, sometimes the human brain just requires inconsistency.

So you're basically saying it's a fair trade off to trade a bit of 'logic and pain' to get a bit of 'fantasy and happiness'?


Sometimes dogmatic structures sculpt really pleasant, considerate, kind people. Sure, feel free to see them as delusional, but like the kid with an invisible friend in school because he can't make any real ones, sometimes the delusion is more pure and beautiful than the reality. I'm not applying that solely to religion either, to clarify.
Perhaps progressive was a slight word mis-use, let's be a bit more broad and say 'positive' instead.

Okay, I agree that it can be far more emotionally satisfying. I just disagree that deluding yourself is worth the happiness you'll get in return - and even if you are happy, you may end up believing your invisible friend would like you to kill all of the Jews in Europe.


Because emotions make us who we are, without them, we would be automatons with nothing but bland, purely functional lives. I don't need logic and evidence for everything, just the situations where I don't want to be a cunt to people, or I need a straightforward answer for something I'm desperate to understand.

Maybe I should rephrase what I said. I want to know why people believe something as absolute truth when the main evidence is emotion.


I rather like being fogged by emotion sometimes, it reminds me that there's something going on in my head that I don't remotely want a scientific explanation for. Occasionally science is like the DVD extra that explains in painstakingly boring detail how the optical illusion you saw in the movie was created. Sometimes I just don't care, I don't want to know, I prefer the simplicity of enjoying a lie.

This is sad to me. How science says your brain works is so much more beautiful and awe-inspiring than the alternatives to me. This chunk of flesh that sits inside your skull and allows you to debate and ponder with someone thousands of miles away about the cosmos is amazing to me. So much more fulfilling than what religions and other non-scientific groups suggest.



You see, when you start calling a group of fellow adults "kiddies", it more or less drives home the fact that you arrogantly think yourself superior. There's no need for it.

I agree.

To clarify, I agree that I come off as thinking I'm superior. I think my views are superior. I say things that seem quite arrogant, I really mean no offense by it. Like I said before, I'm positive most of the people in this thread are better people than me.


In much the same way as suggesting that logic is the only valid and acceptable way of discussing "alternative ideas", I'd wager.

Logic is the basis for any discussion. Logic is the basis for our language and understanding of the world. Without logic in a discussion I could say "Prove religion is real." and you could respond with "Cats walk on the moon." You need logic to even have a discussion.


I like animals, they don't start wars, they never created the A-Bomb, and they don't have priests who abuse children. Maybe if we took a bit more notice of what they've figured out we'd be happier as a species. And I'll decide whether I let my emotions dictate what I believe, thank you.

Actually there are species of apes who do have wars with rival packs. :P Also, there are plenty of animals who eat their young and plenty who sex up whoever they feel like.


Yeah, there's a lot of useless shit peddled to people out there, but at the end of the day, if its creation didn't exploit anyone, and it doesn't ostensibly damage the economy, it's not my problem if someone's stupid enough to buy into it. But I think that about fashion, fast-food, perpetual micro-technology, and the myriad of creature comforts people convince themselves they need. That's almost worse than religion to me; blind consumerism.

And most people I would say are like you, passive about it. But does the idea not pop into your head that maybe by letting this useless shit get peddled to people and letting them believe it, perhaps it will do harm on a large scale? Even if said person doesn't hurt anyone or damage the economy, having an entire species filled with people who will accept nonsense like this doesn't seem like it could end well to me.

Procrastinator
02-20-2011, 06:17 PM
But you agree that organized religion is evil, right?

Yes, it can be.


Well before the leaders of the religion can exploit the followers, they must first exploit their emotional vulnerabilities to get them to believe in the religion.

That is true, but I don't see how it lead you to think this:


So you disagree with the fact that religious leaders exploit the followers, while I disagree with the fact that the followers let themselves get exploited.

I do not disagree with the first, while I disagree with your disagreement on the latter. Or is it rather disapproval?




Like I've said, logic separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom.

If a dog gets hurt by a human, it would begin to fear them and likely either not approach them again or become aggressive towards them in order to defend itself. Isn't that logical behaviour even if it's just based on instincts?



But logic doesn't make me happy or give me a sense of security at all. That's why I believe it's much scarier for humans to accept. I would rather accept the whole truth than have it altered to ease the emotional blow.

So you just like scaring yourself, huh? Accepting the whole truth? Where is it then, so we can all accept it?



But there have been many wars started because of religions.

That's what I said!


Choosing to believe in religion relies on the same building blocks as choosing to believe in astrology, homeopathy, the Occult - basing your beliefs off of your emotions.

Have there ever been any wars started because of the occult and astrology then?



You can't rid the world of religion until you rid of the world of emotionally based decision making.

Emotionally based decision making is typically human, whether it's in our nature or rather part of our behaviour but what makes you think most if not all people base their decisions on emotions? Why doesn't my landlord let me live in his house for free even though he knows I can barely pay my rent? Is it because he feels sorry for me? No, it's because he wants to make more fucking money! Also, are you suggesting people should not have emotions at all?

Golden Eel
02-20-2011, 06:39 PM
I do not disagree with the first, while I disagree with your disagreement on the latter. Or is it rather disapproval?

Oops I phrased that wrong. You see religious exploitation as wrong, while I see people letting themselves be so vulnerable to such abuse as wrong.


If a dog gets hurt by a human, it would begin to fear them and likely either not approach them again or become aggressive towards them in order to defend itself. Isn't that logical behaviour?

That isn't logical thought, it's basic animal instinct. If a dog gets hit, it acts on basic emotional urges - bite, bark, growl, run away.


So you just like scaring yourself, huh? Accepting the whole truth? Where is it then, so we can all accept it?

No I don't enjoy scaring myself, but I'm not going to alter my views on life and the universe simply to make myself feel better. That would feel like an ultimate insult to any kind of intellectual ability I may have. And when I say truth I mean I would rather accept things that are proven to be true than to accept fantasy just to ease the emotional load of life.


Have there ever been any wars started because of the occult and astrology then?

No, but you miss my point. As long as you say it is acceptable for people to believe in those paranormal ideas, you're saying it's also acceptable for people to believe all other paranormal ideas, which includes organized religion.


Emotionally based decision making is typically human, whether it's in our nature or rather part of our behaviour but what makes you think most if not all people base their decisions on emotions? Why doesn't my landlord let me live in his house for free even though he knows I can barely pay my rent? Is it because he feels sorry for me? No, it's because he wants to make more fucking money! Also, are you suggesting people should not have emotions at all?

No I think emotions are very important. I just don't think you should use them as a basis for which you decide what is/is not fact.

alpha2omega
02-22-2011, 07:44 AM
Wow, before i get to know anyone here, some thread. I'll have to contribute later, but I think in my opinion all that's been said by SD, Enigma, SHal0megaB and Procrastinator rounds it down. S.D. I agree, age does add to your experience and thus perception. My ex-roomate was like Mixmashtree (not to judge) but he is 19 (I'm 30) also and well, they sound similar, I might ask my ex-roomate if he's infact on here lol.

Am I the only person who found the Dawkins moment funny :D?

I'll see how this turns out and if i don't get attacked.

And yes I'm new, but not to the phant, so I'm weary of outcomes.... ;)

Golden Eel
02-22-2011, 08:09 AM
Mixmashtree

ಠ_ಠ

Also, I'll try to tone down the abrasiveness if it will keep people posting. I agree I can come off as an asshole, but I also believe that this stems from society's need to have every belief system equally respected. Anyone who calls another person's beliefs 'nonsense' is instantly lynched. However, most people wouldn't respect, for example, Fred Phelps and his 'God Hates Fags' vitriol - but why not? It is his belief, is it not? Sure it is his belief, but it is also hateful and harmful to societal evolution. Well I view most beliefs in alternative ideas just as bad as what the Westboro Baptist Church is preaching so if you can use that analogy to understand my disrespect for the beliefs, perhaps you all will think of me as less of a dick?

Cringeon
02-22-2011, 08:25 AM
The difference is that YOU were asking people what they beliefs were - just so you could disrespect them. With Fred Phelps, the reason his is so offensive is that he goes out of his way to push his views on people regardless of their belief. I think everyone has the right to belief whatever they want, and that should be respected as long as it is not used against someone else beliefs. As with the purpose of this thread, it's not that the people who do believe in these things started a thread and started posting to push their agenda on you - it was the other way around where you asked for people to be honest on how they feel/believe just so you could attack it.

The respect has to go both ways. And to a degree, if you are disrespectful to a persons beliefs - you are disrespecting that person. There is a positive way to discuss and debate, but the intent taken with the thread was misguided from the beginning.

Golden Eel
02-22-2011, 08:45 AM
The difference is that YOU were asking people what they beliefs were - just so you could disrespect them.

Well not exactly. I didn't make the thread with the intention of calling everyone dumb people who believe dumb things. I wanted to try and change their views (or the views of the audience), not just bash them. Isn't that what a debate is, people trying to make their viewpoint be the most accepted?


With Fred Phelps, the reason his is so offensive is that he goes out of his way to push his views on people regardless of their belief.

I respectfully disagree. I find it quite offensive that he even holds the beliefs, the fact that he tries to push it on others is just the icing on the cake.


I think everyone has the right to belief whatever they want, and that should be respected as long as it is not used against someone else beliefs.

So you respect the beliefs of racists and homophobes as long as they're not trying to get others to believe the same? I find that amount of tolerance for alternative ideas to be doing just as much harm as organized religion and the alternative ideas themselves. When you say "It's okay for people to believe what they want", you're also saying it is okay for organized religion (and people like Phelps) to come into existence.


As with the purpose of this thread, it's not that the people who do believe in these things started a thread and started posting to push their agenda on you - it was the other way around where you asked for people to be honest on how they feel/believe just so you could attack it.

You people (ones who are tolerant with beliefs, regardless of how ignorant) view it as an 'attack', I view it as a 'logical debunking'.


And to a degree, if you are disrespectful to a persons beliefs - you are disrespecting that person.

Well that's not true at all. I know who I respect and who I don't. I don't respect these beliefs at all, but as I've stated a few times before (even though clearly no one takes into account this part) the people who hold them are more than likely much better people than I, and I harbor no disrespect towards them.

Cringeon
02-22-2011, 08:54 AM
Yes, I agree everyone has the right to believe what they want - regardless of how offensive and disgusting it might be. As long as they don't tread on me and my belief, I think it's entirely in their right for human existance to believe and follow whatever works for them. The line is drawn when their views step over and are used against other people.

It is my belief that every person in the world is completely responsible for their actions and the energy they put out in the world. And while I think the person has the undeniable right to believe whatever they want (again, no matter how offensive it might be) - I think that if they are putting negative energy out into the world, that it's going to eventually come back to them and they will only have themselves to answer to for the poison they put out.

Golden Eel
02-22-2011, 09:13 AM
Yes, I agree everyone has the right to believe what they want - regardless of how offensive and disgusting it might be. As long as they don't tread on me and my belief, I think it's entirely in their right for human existance to believe and follow whatever works for them. The line is drawn when their views step over and are used against other people.

I do completely understand where you are coming from, but the line you drew is constantly crossed. When you tolerate these beliefs, you also have to tolerate the aftermath of them - the fact that people will act on them and use them against other people. As long as widespread beliefs like this are tolerated by everyone, then religious fanatics and racist genocidal maniacs will continue to do what they do and spread their hate.

Now I'm not comparing believing in the zodiac with believing in racism or believing someone of another religion is a lesser human than you. I am comparing the fact that both of these stem from the acceptance of beliefs in society, regardless of how wrong they are. When you allow someone to believe in the zodiac, you also have to allow them to believe in racism. When you allow people to believe whatever they want, you're also allowing them to act on their beliefs - because they will and do.


It is my belief that every person in the world is completely responsible for their actions and the energy they put out in the world. And while I think the person has the undeniable right to believe whatever they want (again, no matter how offensive it might be) - I think that if they are putting negative energy out into the world, that it's going to eventually come back to them and they will only have themselves to answer to for the poison they put out.

Surely you aren't saying they'll get what they deserve? I think it is safe to say the people in the world who are spreading the most hate and negative energy (politicians, corporations, and religions) live like kings for fucking people over.

Cringeon
02-22-2011, 09:28 AM
That's exactly what I'm saying. I do believe that at some point, the energy you put out in the world comes back to you. The people who benefit from screwing over people, will eventually suffer as a result of their own greed.

Golden Eel
02-22-2011, 09:34 AM
The many Popes who have died happily in their golden castles would like to disagree.

Dronepool
02-22-2011, 11:35 AM
This thread has good intentions but it won't go anywhere, it'll be an endless cycle of opinion ping pong. :[

I like the idea of separating religion from the people and not associating them as one, when I say "X religion is stupid" people take it to too personally. Like this Muslim cashier (who's cute) said she can't eat pork, I commented that's stupid and people look at me like I said something offensive. I'm mostly with Mixmastah, I'm just not as 'strict' as him on this topic. Like I said, I sort of hold an apathetic opinion- it doesn't matter if 'some force' does or doesn't exist. I live life like it's inconsequential to our lives and I really don't have a problem with people being "spiritual" as long as they don't act like jackasses.


Something semi on topic that I think is cool and relates to my new sig-




Fear the Sky: A group of assassins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination) who dress in identical brown suits with identical pocket watches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocket_watch) and identical blood stains on their shoulders. The difference is that they have stellar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star) objects for heads. They wield sickles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sickle) as weapons. Their killing method is called "The Question That Dare Not Be Asked" meaning that if you don't give an answer as they draw their weapons, they will kill you (for added effect, the sickles are shaped like question marks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Question_mark)). They were absorbed into a book of children's verse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children%27s_literature).


:-P

S.Hal0mega.B
02-23-2011, 02:45 AM
hehe this thread spawned out as i thought it would. Ahh well, and yes, without respect going both ways it is easy to see what has come of this brick shit house/formerly open minded discussion.

EDIT. There have been some positive inputs... by dronepool :)

ThreeEyedGod
02-24-2011, 12:36 AM
So you can't find the hundreds of scientific inaccuracies in every ancient religious text?

They are not science books.

Are there even hundreds of attempted scientific references in ancient religious texts?

Allycat
02-24-2011, 07:44 AM
Well, if a belief in God and an afterlife and reincarnation is considered an alternative , then yes.

Golden Eel
02-24-2011, 09:13 AM
They are not science books.

Are there even hundreds of attempted scientific references in ancient religious texts?

Well you said science and religion are deeply intertwined. Since the creation of religion, it has relied on our lack of understanding of science to make its claims. God of the Gaps.

Any claims ancient religious texts make about the universe (how it was created, where man came from, how the tides work, etc.) is a scientific claim, and they're usually wrong.

ThreeEyedGod
02-24-2011, 02:31 PM
Well you said science and religion are deeply intertwined. Since the creation of religion, it has relied on our lack of understanding of science to make its claims. God of the Gaps.

Any claims ancient religious texts make about the universe (how it was created, where man came from, how the tides work, etc.) is a scientific claim, and they're usually wrong.
Spiritually speaking: God is responsible for "science".

The creation of the universe and man is attributed to God, not science. Once again: these aspects transcend what you refer to as human logic, so we go in circles once again.

I just wanted to respond to your last response. Over and out.

Golden Eel
02-24-2011, 06:56 PM
Spiritually speaking: God is responsible for "science".

The creation of the universe and man is attributed to God, not science. Once again: these aspects transcend what you refer to as human logic, so we go in circles once again.

I just wanted to respond to your last response. Over and out.

Well okay. In this hypothetical in which God created science, why did he/his books get so much wrong?

Cringeon
02-24-2011, 07:18 PM
Because man wrote books.

Golden Eel
02-24-2011, 07:42 PM
I agree. Doesn't that prove my point that 'religion' has gotten science wrong?

I understand ThreeEyedGod's point, but I think he should have phrased it differently. I can understand how people think a deity set science and the universe in motion, but I wouldn't say 'religion' and science are intertwined - since we have deduced 'religion' (not the deity, but the worship) was created by man. It would make more sense to say the idea of God and science are intertwined.

Golden Eel
02-25-2011, 01:03 AM
I love how evolutionist say God could not have created the world in 6 days but then think that their great grandfather x 1,000 was a rock, that from nothing a an explosion happened, that non life produced life. It makes me laugh when they use carbon to date periods of millions of years when carbon has a half life of less than 5,800 years old. When they use huge unprovable assumptions to agree with their theories.
Creation is a theory I agree. It is based out of belief in the Bible I agree.
So is evolution. It is a theory, unproven and unprovable, it is also a religion. It is believed and defended with religious fervor and those who follow it do so blindly burning all who will not agree with them at the stake of Darwinism.

This is why I am against tolerating any and every beliefs.

EDIT: Let me clarify - I'm not saying we shouldn't tolerate any beliefs, I'm saying we shouldn't tolerate every belief.

Alexandra
02-25-2011, 07:55 PM
I kept visiting this thread every now and then and wanted to post here earlier but I soon realized that almost everything I wanted to say has been mentioned and I was suspecting that this type of a debate could go on and on without an end. But today I read your (MixMastah) posts and that facebook quote in the Hate thread and couldn't resist replying.



Either way, it's not a generalization. There are many polls which show how prevalent nonsense ideas are in this nation. There are many (meaning a lot, like over 20%) people who honestly believe Barack Obama is the Anti-Christ. There are high schools which teach Creationism in science class. Over 20% of Americans believe evolution is a lie. A huge amount of people are strongly against gay marriage.

It's insane.

I invite you to come to my house, up in the mountains in Nevada. The amount of crazy here is much more concentrated, I have a difficult time finding someone who doesn't honestly believe Obama is the anti-christ. I quite often get mocked for saying evolution is true. And gays, of course, are just worthless fags.

Well, I used to live in a very small, extremely religious and close-minded Middle European town with almost all residents being hardcore Catholics but, Christ*, those facebook quotes made my eyes bleed. It's unimaginable to me how close-minded some American communities (I'm not saying cities, since there will always be exceptions, just like you for example) can be. I sincerely feel for you, MixMastah, because I know the pain of being aware that you're stuck with so many dolts around you.

But while I get why you're so frustrated about this subject, I did not like how you tried forcing your opinions on others, especially here where most of us, as seen in this thread, are open-minded folks.
I sometimes wish that all people, not only fundamentalist Christians but also Atheists and everyone between, would simply learn to accept one another's beliefs and not force their own on them.


*Speaking of Christ, I recently discovered further proof that Poland is one of Europe's most Christian countries - the biggest statue of Jesus Christ in the world was built in some Polish town. Here (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1327239/Jesus-statue-Poland-Worlds-largest-rival-Rio-Janeiro.html) is a link and here's a photo:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/11/06/article-1327239-0BF05CD6000005DC-939_634x397.jpg

I found this rather ridiculous and stupid because instead of donating money to the needy, people spent it on something so bizarre. One could say that if believing in Christ and anything other than science was forbidden, then this wouldn't happen in the first place, but I think it's people's nature to start believing in whatever they're forbidden to even stronger, so I'm afraid that wouldn't help. (And on a side note, we all know that people would find something else to spend their money on, since the vast majority are simply greedy pricks. Anyway) I was referring to this particular quote:


I do completely understand where you are coming from, but the line you drew is constantly crossed. When you tolerate these beliefs, you also have to tolerate the aftermath of them - the fact that people will act on them and use them against other people. As long as widespread beliefs like this are tolerated by everyone, then religious fanatics and racist genocidal maniacs will continue to do what they do and spread their hate.

Now I'm not comparing believing in the zodiac with believing in racism or believing someone of another religion is a lesser human than you. I am comparing the fact that both of these stem from the acceptance of beliefs in society, regardless of how wrong they are. When you allow someone to believe in the zodiac, you also have to allow them to believe in racism. When you allow people to believe whatever they want, you're also allowing them to act on their beliefs - because they will and do.

I partly agree with you here. Yes, most people act on their beliefs and that's why I stressed "wish" a few paragraphs before but I completely disagree that this issue could be handled in such way. If certain groups of people were to stop tolerating beliefs of the rest and forbid them altogether, it would remind me a lot what happened in Poland's history. Long (tragic and fucked up) story short, I'll just say that Poland has been a Christian country for centuries, however during much of the 20th century Christianity had been repressed by the governments (particularly the Nazis and Communists) and they knew what they were doing. I would love to elaborate but then I'd never finish writing this post, so maybe at least some of you will become interested and do the research on your own.

Anyway, ever since Poland finally became free in 1989, Poles became obsessive about Christianity and expressing their religious beliefs. If I'm not mistaken, around 95% of people in this country claims to be Christian. So this is what happens when you stop tolerating a belief.


I think science is a great tool in man's hands when used for the right purpose, such as improving standard of living and knowing more about ourselves, our planet and space, but it's hands are tied by the big bad greedy corporations and most of its achievements don't really get to people. Furthermore, it doesn't get to people who need it just for the sake of having something to eat, fresh water to drink, etc., which is a damn shame but also not profitable. Otherwise, in my opinion, science is humanity's only hope for well, survival. Which doesn't mean I subscribe to the idea that it has all the answers, quite the contrary- I sometimes even think all our knowledge may be based on facts that are untrue.

As for science itself, what Procrastinator wrote here pretty much sums up my opinion on it, especially in the last sentence. Having an open mind is and will always be one of the most important things to me. Of all things, I probably have most faith in science, so I probably share similar beliefs on many subjects with you, MixMastah, but I'm also open to all those, as you called them, alternative ideas. I find reading about them to be a rewarding experience even though I hardly ever find myself believing in any. I also sometimes like exploring spiritual subjects in search of artistic inspiration.
The only thing I'm closest to believing in, that isn't "scientific", is Astrology (not Horoscopes). Although, I can't say I truly believe in it really, as I'm having a hard time understanding how the alignment of planets and stars can influence our personalities, but it don't think it's impossible either. The thing is that a few people whom I know really well seem to be walking proof that it might be true, because they perfectly fit their signs' descriptions. And it's quite difficult for me to ignore that fact.


There's no REAL anything. There's no rules. We create the rules. We establish them.

I agree with what's being said here but I especially wanted to highlight this way of thinking. I really admire people who are able to think outside the box. See, what if something strange happened (whatever it could be) one day that proved all scientific facts completely wrong? I'm not implying that it might happen, it's highly unlikely, but what I wanted to show with this example is that whenever I believe in something (or not) I always like keeping that small reserve of skepticism and thinking about all of the possibilities. Because, you know, everything's possible.


On a side note, for some reason I literally cannot stand being inside a church. When I am inside one (admiring the architecture for example), I feel irritated, as if I'm suffocating and only think of getting the fuck out of it.

That's interesting, I feel exactly the same about churches. They seem very unpleasant and unfriendly to me, which is ironic because I'd normally think that they should make you feel as nice as possible to attract you and make you come again. And again... Yet the last time I've been in a church was years ago! I always found this strange but I'm glad I'm not the only one feeling like this. :)
Although I've been tempted to visit one beautiful church in the city center for two months already. I might actually try going there one day out of curiosity.

ThreeEyedGod
02-25-2011, 11:10 PM
. Here (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1327239/Jesus-statue-Poland-Worlds-largest-rival-Rio-Janeiro.html) is a link and here's a photo:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/11/06/article-1327239-0BF05CD6000005DC-939_634x397.jpg


Jeepers Creepers! Ghostbusters 3 anyone?

Dysmorphia
02-26-2011, 05:09 AM
But while I get why you're so frustrated about this subject, I did not like how you tried forcing your opinions on others, especially here where most of us, as seen in this thread, are open-minded folks.
I sometimes wish that all people, not only fundamentalist Christians but also Atheists and everyone between, would simply learn to accept one another's beliefs and not force their own on them.


I totally agree with this.

Golden Eel
02-26-2011, 04:30 PM
But while I get why you're so frustrated about this subject, I did not like how you tried forcing your opinions on others, especially here where most of us, as seen in this thread, are open-minded folks.
I sometimes wish that all people, not only fundamentalist Christians but also Atheists and everyone between, would simply learn to accept one another's beliefs and not force their own on them.

It's completely insane when someone puts forth and argument based on fact and someone else puts forward an argument based on emotion, that those two ideas have to be thought of as equal. If you all believe what you're saying, you're implying that science class shouldn't exist because it is forcing the beliefs of science on people who don't want to believe them.

There is a difference between beliefs and fact. My argument hasn't really been that these ideas are untrue (though I believe they are), it has been more along the lines of 'you should use logic and reason as the lens with which you choose your beliefs.'

There are plenty of people who use logic as the lens to weigh options, and there are plenty with which I disagree with on certain things. I'm not pushing forward my opinion that 'x idea is wrong', I'm pushing forward my opinion that 'maybe you should find some real proof (appeal to emotion is not proof) before you believe x idea'.


I found this rather ridiculous and stupid because instead of donating money to the needy, people spent it on something so bizarre.

If Christ was a real person and was alive today, I think it's safe to say he would object to many, many of the things that are done in his name - such as this. Like you said, he would want ALL money to be spent on the needy. I'm pretty sure he would want ALL of his followers to sell everything they own and donate all of their money to the needy and hungry.


I partly agree with you here. Yes, most people act on their beliefs and that's why I stressed "wish" a few paragraphs before but I completely disagree that this issue could be handled in such way. If certain groups of people were to stop tolerating beliefs of the rest and forbid them altogether, it would remind me a lot what happened in Poland's history.

There is a difference between not tolerating any belief that isn't your own, and not tolerating beliefs which aren't based in fact or logic. Let me put it this way...

Two example conversations.

Conversation one:

Person A: "I believe in Jesus. He was a man, born from a virgin. He was also God. God was the one who got the virgin pregnant so she would give birth to God. Well this Jesus, he went around healing the sick with magic and getting into all sorts of zany antics. He was killed by the Romans on a cross. Three days later, he rose from the dead. I now worship him and live my life based off of what I read in a 2,000+ year old book."

Person B: "Oh, so you're a Christian? I respect that and will not ask you to provide proof for any of the claims you make."

Conversation two:

Person A: "I believe in Agnar. He was a man, born from a virgin. He was also an interdimensional creator of all and everything. He got a woman pregnant, which created an alien-human hybrid. This son, Dagnar, went around healing the sick with magic space power and doing all sorts of crazy stuff. He was killed by the alien hunters with a shovel. Three days later, he rose from the dead and flew away in a spaceship. I now worship him and live my life based off of what I read in a 2,000+ year old book about him."

Person B: "Wait...what? You're fucking nuts dude."

There is really no difference between the two stories, other than one huge important one: one of these beliefs is widely accepted and tolerated by mankind.

My point is, you wouldn't accept if someone told you the sun went around the earth. You wouldn't accept it if someone told you our world leaders were reptilian aliens. The only reason people accept beliefs which have no basis in reality or fact is because other people also accept them.

You people (since I'm basically the only one militant about not accepting ignorance, in this thread) and I are different sides of the same coin, you value emotion over knowledge while I value the opposite. I am not content with ignorance, even if it makes people happy.


Anyway, ever since Poland finally became free in 1989, Poles became obsessive about Christianity and expressing their religious beliefs. If I'm not mistaken, around 95% of people in this country claims to be Christian. So this is what happens when you stop tolerating a belief.

I disagree. If suddenly all people who didn't believe in Christianity would stick up for fact and reason without fear of hurting feelings, things would change. If Christians were constantly challenged to explain their nonsense, there would be less Christians. Instead we live in a world of tolerating all the wrong things.


As for science itself, what Procrastinator wrote here pretty much sums up my opinion on it, especially in the last sentence.

Well what she said doesn't make any sense. "Facts that are untrue." is 100% an oxymoron. Facts are true by definition.


Having an open mind is and will always be one of the most important things to me. Of all things, I probably have most faith in science, so I probably share similar beliefs on many subjects with you, MixMastah, but I'm also open to all those, as you called them, alternative ideas. I find reading about them to be a rewarding experience even though I hardly ever find myself believing in any. I also sometimes like exploring spiritual subjects in search of artistic inspiration.

It's possible to have an open mind and also be a skeptic. People call me close-minded because I don't accept these alternative ideas. Wrong. I am open-minded, I do give everything a chance. But if there is no proof for something, why would I want to believe that? Choosing not to believe in something which has no proof of its existence is not close-minded. (I know you weren't calling me close-minded)


The only thing I'm closest to believing in, that isn't "scientific", is Astrology (not Horoscopes). Although, I can't say I truly believe in it really, as I'm having a hard time understanding how the alignment of planets and stars can influence our personalities, but it don't think it's impossible either. The thing is that a few people whom I know really well seem to be walking proof that it might be true, because they perfectly fit their signs' descriptions. And it's quite difficult for me to ignore that fact.

Just because you observe a coincidence doesn't make something true. Correlation does not equal causation. I suggest gathering a large amount of people (let's say 5,000 from all over the world per star sign) and I'll guarantee you there will be entirely random personality types from every end of the spectrum in each 5,000 person group.


I agree with what's being said here but I especially wanted to highlight this way of thinking. I really admire people who are able to think outside the box. See, what if something strange happened (whatever it could be) one day that proved all scientific facts completely wrong? I'm not implying that it might happen, it's highly unlikely, but what I wanted to show with this example is that whenever I believe in something (or not) I always like keeping that small reserve of skepticism and thinking about all of the possibilities. Because, you know, everything's possible.

Not everything is possible, not sure what makes you think that could be remotely true. I don't disagree with you thinking it, though. I have no problem with accepting the idea that something might be true. God might exist. I might be a brain in a vat and the entire world I experience is a computer simulation created by beings observing me. But saying something does exist, while at the same time providing no proof of such a claim is illogical.


That's interesting, I feel exactly the same about churches. They seem very unpleasant and unfriendly to me, which is ironic because I'd normally think that they should make you feel as nice as possible to attract you and make you come again. And again... Yet the last time I've been in a church was years ago! I always found this strange but I'm glad I'm not the only one feeling like this. :)
Although I've been tempted to visit one beautiful church in the city center for two months already. I might actually try going there one day out of curiosity.

The only thing churches are good for it the artistic quality of some of them. At the same time, the art doesn't make up for the pure evil that is spawned in many churches.

Golden Eel
02-26-2011, 07:39 PM
I'll post something I think we can all agree on.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IguW9xHd2qo

If this doesn't make you want to vomit, I don't know what will.

jonfen
02-26-2011, 09:49 PM
Wow, Alexandra, ours are such similar countries.

Similar to your giant-Jesus, there's an approved governmental plan to build the biggest cathedral in Europe, called "The People's Redemption Cathedral". Get this: it's going to have a MALL where you can buy religious stuff, a HOTEL where pilgrims can stay, and A FREAKING POOL!!

I'm dead serious. The whole project costs 500 million Euros. This is when our country is seriously struggling with international debts and economic stability. Some old lady asked our.. grand poobah, or whatever he's called - the highest religious figure: "Sir, my pension doesn't allow me to buy food AND medical drugs. I have to choose. Why are you spending so much on a cathedral?". The poobah's response: "It's a steep price, I know. But I am sure that every true Christian will contribute with at least 50 lei [roughly 10 euros] to help cover the costs, and we'll be just fine". Yeah, fucked up.

Oh, and Alexandra, about the obsessing about religion, that's a thing that happened in Romania as well, post 1989. The thing is, the communist regime banned religion altogether, it was illegal to practice any form of religion, other than the love for our dictator (ha! I kid, I kid), and people saw religion as a form of protest against the regime. They felt united when they went to church, in secrecy, of course, they felt that they had a true reason for doing all sorts of rituals, and saying prayers.

These feelings of rebellion slowly transformed into the illusion of belief into the religion itself, and I have a hunch that's the reason we have so many brainwashed religious fanatics around here. I'm well aware that you know all these things, having gone through yourself (well, maybe not yourself, but your parents, maybe even elder siblings), I just wanted to express what I believe is the reason of religious fanaticism around here.

About what MixMastah said, the first Zeitgeist movie shows a series of examples highlighting the characteristics of every major religious figure in every religion, i.e. born from a virgin, god's son, performed miracles, etc.. I'm sure most of you saw it, I just wanted to make a note of it.

Golden Eel
02-26-2011, 10:15 PM
a series of examples highlighting the characteristics of every major religious figure in every religion, i.e. born from a virgin, god's son, performed miracles, etc.. I'm sure most of you saw it, I just wanted to make a note of it.

Yes exactly, and people believed those. I mean, people believe scientology. It's a religion being created right before our eyes. People call it a cult, but it's not different than other religion, beside the fact that it doesn't have a reputation yet.

Golden Eel
02-27-2011, 05:11 PM
This new Onion article is hilariously relevant. (http://www.theonion.com/articles/openminded-man-grimly-realizes-how-much-life-hes-w,19273/)

spaceSuicide
02-27-2011, 06:38 PM
Always have, always will.

I'm not going to get specific in what category.

Golden Eel
02-27-2011, 06:40 PM
Always have, always will.

I'm not going to get specific in what category.

I'm curious, I won't be a dick or anything lol.

spaceSuicide
02-27-2011, 06:42 PM
I'm curious, I won't be a dick or anything lol.

I don't feel like writing several huge ass paragraphs at the moment. :p

If you wanna talk to me about it you know where I am, my friend.

Psssst....MSN Messenger.

;)

Shangri-LIE
03-06-2011, 02:46 PM
I am drinking a bottle of water. It's science.

VelvetAIDS
03-06-2011, 02:47 PM
I am drinking a bottle of water. It's science.

WRONG. You can't explain that.

trollface.jpg

Golden Eel
03-06-2011, 04:22 PM
I am drinking a bottle of water. It's science.

Well how do you know it's water? Just because the label says it is? Just because the government and scientists tell you it is?

We all have equally valid opinions, what if I believe it is piss? You can't prove me wrong, science is just like based on our flawed human logic. Science can't prove it is water, therefore it must be piss.

VelvetAIDS
03-06-2011, 04:34 PM
Well how do you know it's water? Just because the label says it is? Just because the government and scientists tell you it is?

We all have equally valid opinions, what if I believe it is piss? You can't prove me wrong, science is just like based on our flawed human logic. Science can't prove it is water, therefore it must be piss.

........

Shangri-LIE
03-06-2011, 04:35 PM
Well how do you know it's water? Just because the label says it is? Just because the government and scientists tell you it is?

We all have equally valid opinions, what if I believe it is piss? You can't prove me wrong, science is just like based on our flawed human logic. Science can't prove it is water, therefore it must be piss.

It must be water as I drink a ton of it, and I haven't died from dehydration yet. Also, are you being serious? I'm not even kidding. I am calling a time out. Are you fucking serious? If not then I get it har har. If so, and if we were in the same room, I'd probably cave your head in with something. I'm not trying to be nasty. But come on. Are you being serious? Please don't enrage me. I am unstable.

VelvetAIDS
03-06-2011, 04:37 PM
*busts into hysterical fits and dies*

Golden Eel
03-06-2011, 04:40 PM
It must be water as I drink a ton of it, and I haven't died from dehydration yet. Also, are you being serious? I'm not even kidding. I am calling a time out. Are you fucking serious? If not then I get it har har. If so, and if we were in the same room, I'd probably cave your head in with something. I'm not trying to be nasty. But come on. Are you being serious? Please don't enrage me. I am unstable.

That implies science is correct and that you need water to live. What makes you think that is true? Have you ever tested the chemicals you're made out of? Have you ever seen the atoms that make up your body? Science is a religion just like all the others, just because it has gone through centuries of refinement and advancement and success - that doesn't make it any more valid to explain your water than my theory (science is still just a theory) that you are drinking a bottle of piss.

u mad bro?

VelvetAIDS
03-06-2011, 04:44 PM
....Are you really being serious?

Shangri-LIE
03-06-2011, 04:46 PM
Ok. He is being serious. I have matches, and bricks, and a bucket of feces. I am going to go apeshit. Total meltdown. I can't control this. I need to go break some stuff and scream like an animal and I'll brb.

Edit - No I'm not mad. I just wanted to get a REALLY heated debate started. Even if the content was fabricated for the sole purpose of nim wittery. I have come to the conclusion that brutality through both speech and physical intimidation needs to make a big comeback. Civility is lame. Muah

Golden Eel
03-06-2011, 05:11 PM
haha. Go check out my thread about O'Reilly, I think I may have been a bit more civil there. That thread wasn't so much about the issues as it was about the effects of them.

Golden Eel
03-20-2011, 01:15 PM
Any of you guys upset the Supermoon didn't end the world?

I'm sure it caused the earthquake in Japan. Or was that the solar flares?

Shangri-LIE
03-20-2011, 02:18 PM
Any of you guys upset the Supermoon didn't end the world?

I'm sure it caused the earthquake in Japan. Or was that the solar flares?

Were you the bastard who ruined the event by shining a bat signal at it?!?!?

Golden Eel
03-20-2011, 02:22 PM
Were you the bastard who ruined the event by shining a bat signal at it?!?!?

No, but I did my best at telling everyone the perigee moon comes around every few years, as opposed to a once every couple decades.

Shangri-LIE
03-20-2011, 05:56 PM
Charrrrrliiiiiiiiiiieeeeeeeeeee

Golden Eel
04-04-2011, 10:01 PM
Pop quiz!

How many of you are agnostics?

How many of you know what agnostic means?

ShelfLife
04-04-2011, 10:57 PM
Agnostic, to my knowledge means, "I don't know what's out there, and I accept that I will probably never know" or "undecided".

I can't comfortably say I'm agnostic, because I know exactly what I do and don't believe in. Otherwise, it's a very sensible status.

Golden Eel
04-04-2011, 11:05 PM
Agnostic, to my knowledge means, "I don't know what's out there, and I accept that I will probably never know"

Got it.


or "undecided".

And then you lost it.

99% of people I've met (and the media, etc.) think of agnosticism incorrectly. Most people assume it is a middle ground between atheism and theism, but that's not true at all. You were right, it means you admit you do not know all the details. But it doesn't mean you are undecided. Like me, I am an agnostic atheist, but I'd say I'm far from undecided. Instead of thinking of it like a line chart with 'Atheist' on one end, 'Agnostic' in the middle, and 'Theist' on the other end - think of it like a + chart, with 'Atheist/Theist' on the top/bottom axes, and 'Agnostic/Gnostic' on the left/right axes.

So long story short, people use the term 'agnostic' to describe their beliefs, when in reality there are agnostics who are strong atheists and there are agnostics who are strong theists. So agnostic doesn't really describe what you believe in the slightest.


I can't comfortably say I'm agnostic, because I know exactly what I do and don't believe in. Otherwise, it's a very sensible status.

I know exactly what I do and don't believe in as well, but I'm still an agnostic.

Golden Eel
05-29-2011, 05:22 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1G3QhmGdv0

If you know anything about science, watch this. It'll make you at least 10 times more stupid.

Hewhocannotbemaimed
06-03-2011, 05:03 PM
I am into alternative ideas to an extent (certainly not exclusively). I have yet to see many referenced in this thread. It is hard to discuss alternative ideas these days as fringe ideas are forced into the centre whilst truly alternative ideas are ignored, even/especially by those who pride themselves on being "alternative". It is a sad time.

brian219
03-21-2012, 04:52 AM
This thread reminds me of a poem by the late Solomon Don Dunce:

"Who would the blessed be if stranger things were true
Would still the loud repeaters reign above the few
Were there proofs of yesterday might all stay the same
Who might the wiser be if nothing proved quite plain

What would the doubters do if shocking things were said
Were dogs found to have built towns could it fit most heads
Would some then discover a wider point of view
Who would the blessed be if stranger things proved true"

Golden Eel
03-21-2012, 04:34 PM
Just caught OWN (Oprah's TV channel) on in another room. "Dr." Oz's show was on, and as usual, he was hawking alternative medicine, 'cupping', acupuncture, and fucking leeches.

Oprah, "Dr." Phill, "Dr." Drew, and all her other lackeys deserve to be killed for the massive amount of live-threatening bullshit they're spreading.

VelvetAIDS
03-21-2012, 05:41 PM
Acupuncture is life-threatening? That's a new one.

Golden Eel
03-21-2012, 05:42 PM
Acupuncture is life-threatening? That's a new one.

The concept of pushing pseudoscience and pretending it's a valid option is life-threatening.

VelvetAIDS
03-21-2012, 05:45 PM
Maybe if people actually fucking took care of themselves we wouldn't be looking for alternative methods of healing outside of surgeries and popping pills until we become walking CVS pharmacies.

The Empirical Guy
03-22-2012, 05:30 AM
I came in here looking for pictures of Jeff Goldblum, but it seems I'm in the wrong place.

Golden Eel
03-22-2012, 04:25 PM
I posted this before S.D. ruined my other thread, but I'll post it in here. I can't commend this video highly enough. Believer and free-thinker alike should watch this video.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U

ThreeEyedGod
03-22-2012, 06:36 PM
Just caught OWN (Oprah's TV channel) on in another room. "Dr." Oz's show was on, and as usual, he was hawking alternative medicine, 'cupping', acupuncture, and fucking leeches.


..what the?

leeches have always been used for legitimate medical purposes and have never been considered to be in the same damned "alternative" class such as cupping or meditating.

Golden Eel
03-22-2012, 06:41 PM
..what the?

leeches have always been used for legitimate medical purposes and have never been considered to be in the same damned "alternative" class such as cupping or meditating.

What are leeches used for in modern times that couldn't be accomplished with modern medicine/procedures?

Genuinely curious, because if it's still legitimate medical advice, I wouldn't want to group it with that other nonsense.

ThreeEyedGod
03-22-2012, 06:46 PM
What are leeches used for in modern times that couldn't be accomplished with modern medicine/procedures?

Genuinely curious, because if it's still legitimate medical advice, I wouldn't want to group it with that other nonsense.

From Wikipedia. ( citations to be found there)

Medicinal leeches are now making a comeback in microsurgery. They provide an effective means to reduce blood coagulation, to relieve venous pressure from pooling blood (venous insufficiency), and in reconstructive surgery to stimulate circulation in reattachment operations for organs with critical blood flow, such as eyelids, fingers, and ears.[3][4][5] The therapeutic effect is not from the blood taken in the meal, but from the continued and steady bleeding from the wound left after the leech has detached.[2] The most common complication from leech treatment is prolonged bleeding, which can easily be treated, although allergic reactions and bacterial infections may also occur.[2]

Because of the minuscule amounts of hirudin present in leeches, it is impractical to harvest the substance for widespread medical use. Hirudin (and related substances) are synthesised using recombinant techniques. Devices called "mechanical leeches" that dispense heparin and perform the same function as medicinal leeches have been developed, but they are not yet commercially available.

Golden Eel
03-22-2012, 06:49 PM
So basically they have no practicality for a television "doctor" to be hawking to middle-ages housewives?

ThreeEyedGod
03-22-2012, 06:53 PM
I've never even heard of this Oz character.

Sounds like the medical school version of "Dr." Phil.

cupping

Golden Eel
03-22-2012, 06:56 PM
Sounds like the medical school version of "Dr." Phil.

He is. He originated on Oprah's show, then branched out to his own show on her network giving terrible advice. Exactly like Dr. Phil.

brian219
03-22-2012, 11:26 PM
Oprah has more pull in the field of medicine in the US than the AMA does. It's terrifying in a way.

Golden Eel
03-22-2012, 11:38 PM
It's terrifying in a way.

It's terrifying in all ways.

Pasco
03-26-2012, 08:54 AM
I have some unusual ideas.

I know:
That astral projection is real
That you can put yourself into trance and get information you could not get by conventional means
That it is possible to dissolve the boundaries between Egos. In other words, telepathy is possible

This has caused me to believe:
That we are all one consciousness
That we reincarnate
Some other weird shit

Golden Eel
03-29-2012, 12:35 AM
I have some unusual ideas.

I know:
That astral projection is real
That you can put yourself into trance and get information you could not get by conventional means
That it is possible to dissolve the boundaries between Egos. In other words, telepathy is possible

This has caused me to believe:
That we are all one consciousness
That we reincarnate
Some other weird shit

That really sounds unhealthy man. Have you looked into seeing a professional? You're exhibiting some traits of schizophrenia.

VelvetAIDS
03-29-2012, 01:02 AM
That astral projection is real


Quoted for the truth.

Golden Eel
03-29-2012, 01:08 AM
Quoted for the truth.

Seriously, you too. Have you ever spoken with a mental health professional?

Enigma
03-29-2012, 02:25 AM
Seriously, you too. Have you ever spoken with a mental health professional?

There's no need to speak with anybody if you feel good. Why would a health professional help you any ways? We need to realize we're all humans and nobody can tell us what's real or not, what's a mental problem or what's just a different view and sense of the world. Doctors are only humans, why would they know more about myself than myself? They technically know more, but they don't know how I really work, how to treat me specifically. How many times they have said to me "you are sick, you should take some of this and some of that", and I've answered "no, I'm fine", but they want you to be their way. I'm fine means I'm fine, if I feel good I won't start creating a problem that never existed.

Mind is a terrible thing to taste, and doctors think they know a lot about yours when they don't even know a shit about theirs.

Golden Eel
03-29-2012, 02:37 AM
If you truly believe in some of the ideas that these guys are talking about, it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the line between illusion and reality. If you are unable to distinguish reality from hallucinations you're experiencing, that's a very bad thing, no matter how 'happy' you feel with it.

I mean, this guy thinks he can travel outside of his body with his mind and that he can speak to other people with his mind. He should really get that checked out, because this kind of mental illness can have terrible effects on his life later down the road.

Enigma
03-29-2012, 08:34 AM
If you truly believe in some of the ideas that these guys are talking about, it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the line between illusion and reality. If you are unable to distinguish reality from hallucinations you're experiencing, that's a very bad thing, no matter how 'happy' you feel with it.

I mean, this guy thinks he can travel outside of his body with his mind and that he can speak to other people with his mind. He should really get that checked out, because this kind of mental illness can have terrible effects on his life later down the road.

I've read enough of your ideas and theories to see you are an intelligent person, but also a radicalist in many many ways. That's a problem you will have to solve by yourself and probably it will take some years to appear as a problem to you, but no need to hurry, we're young and have a lot of time to spend. If you believe in a soul and believe in other kind of connections between energies, I don't see why travelling out of your body couldn't be possible. That you don't believe it, that's another thing, but it pisses me off when someone tries to put the limits on other people lifes. I've had one astral projection when I was a child, and no, I've never spoken with anybody only using my mind, if you're interested about it. I don't know what really happened but nobody knows and nobody can feel the way I did. Sometimes things get more complex that you might think, and that's the world we live in. In a lot of your comments you look like one fundamentalist who determines what's right and wrong, true or false. You hold no weight, you just believe in evidences like evidences meant a shit. It's all human conception, yours is not above others.

Golden Eel
03-29-2012, 09:02 AM
I've read enough of your ideas and theories to see you are an intelligent person, but also a radicalist in many many ways.

Being radical doesn't equate to being wrong.


If you believe in a soul and believe in other kind of connections between energies, I don't see why travelling out of your body couldn't be possible.

I don't believe in a soul, and 'energies' is a pretty vague term. 'Energy' is not a some product. Energy is a byproduct of a reaction, so 'energies' does not make any sense really.


Sometimes things get more complex that you might think, and that's the world we live in.

That's hilarious. The universe is amazingly and incomprehensibly complex. And then we have people like you, who seem to want to simplify things into neat little categories, like a 'soul' or 'life energies'. The cosmos is so grand. I'm simply offended when people like you attempt to discredit the human race's humble discoveries and acknowledgements by saying 'no one can know'. You're right, no one does currently know 'everything', but that doesn't mean you get to inject your own ideas and have them accepted as a valid alternative.


In a lot of your comments you look like one fundamentalist who determines what's right and wrong, true or false. You hold no weight, you just believe in evidences like evidences meant a shit. It's all human conception, yours is not above others.

I don't claim to know anything. I'm just not going to believe a single thing without some sort of evidence. It's foolish and childish to do it any other way. How about this. Borrowing an idea from Tim Minchin, when you leave a building, you do so by exiting through a door and not the third story window. This is because you've gathered evidence via analysis that doing such a thing would not end well. You are able to use a computer and post this comment because you've done experiments that lead you to believe you can. EVERYTHING you do in your life is guided by evidence.

EVIDENCE, and SCIENTIFIC STUDY, is the entire reason you're using a computer in the first place, for Christ's sake. People seem to only discredit science when it conflicts with their person beliefs. If any of your ideas were true, they wouldn't collapse under the slightest bit of scientific scrutiny.

Imagine this scenario. Imagine you were walking down the sidewalk and you saw a person talking to themselves. When you asked them what they were doing, they said they were talking to their friends The Beatles. You ask what they meant, and they told you that they were talking to the actual Beatles. John, Paul, Ringo, and George were standing there conversing with this lonely man.

Now obviously he's insane, right? I mean, he's standing there talking to himself, while believing he's talking to the band The Beatles.

So would you honestly entertain the idea that he's actually speaking with The Beatles? Would you really, truly entertain the idea that this was possible? Or would you laugh and blow him off because you know he's insane? I'm absolutely sure you'd do the later.

In reality, being close friends with The Invisible Beatles is not much different than the things you're talking about.

Enigma
03-29-2012, 09:42 AM
Being radical doesn't equate to being wrong.

Yes, you are right in that ; )


That's hilarious. The universe is amazingly and incomprehensibly complex. And then we have people like you, who seem to want to simplify things into neat little categories, like a 'soul' or 'life energies'. The cosmos is so grand. I'm simply offended when people like you attempt to discredit the human race's humble discoveries and acknowledgements by saying 'no one can know'. You're right, no one does currently know 'everything', but that doesn't mean you get to inject your own ideas and have them accepted as a valid alternative.

Reducing everything in numbers means to reduce everything into metaphors. A metaphor can't be reality, reality is reality. So no, you're not any closer than anybody else, doesn't matter what you have learnt or the evidences you have to prove anything. I don't discredit science, I admire the effort an it makes life easier and longer, why would I discredit that? I just think it may answer some kind of things but has no clue of other that will NEVER be revealed with numbers. You claim the universe is amazingly and incomprehensibily complex. Maybe I just figured that out and I have assumed this is the way it has to be. I agree, it is SO complex, so I don't think I could accept any explanation that tries to describe that complexity with a human subproduct of the language; the numbers. And please, look at yourself for once and see you are the only one who really discredit other people opinions and beliefs.


I don't claim to know anything. I'm just not going to believe a single thing without some sort of evidence. It's foolish and childish to do it any other way. How about this. Borrowing an idea from Tim Minchin, when you leave a building, you do so by exiting through a door and not the third story window. This is because you've gathered evidence via analysis that doing such a thing would not end well. You are able to use a computer and post this comment because you've done experiments that lead you to believe you can. EVERYTHING you do in your life is guided by evidence.

Maybe I'm childish, and that's the way I see life. You grow up and they tell you to be this or that and people get extremely racional and base their whole lifes in trusting a small part of their brains. I would say everything you do in your life is guided by instinct or it is done subconsciously, which is not close at all to veing guided by any evidence. I was born and there is a game they let me play, so I'm no going to care about what other people think, I'm going to follow myself and that's what I try to do.


EVIDENCE, and SCIENTIFIC STUDY, is the entire reason you're using a computer in the first place, for Christ's sake. People seem to only discredit science when it conflicts with their person beliefs. If any of your ideas were true, they wouldn't collapse under the slightest bit of scientific scrutiny.

But it's not the entire reason I am or not happy, or the reason I feel realised or not. Maybe it is yours, not mine. Then there exist other things science can't even smell and if there's no evidence, it seems like they don't exist. Hey, OPEN YOUR EYES, everything, I mean EVERY FUCKING THING you see, you hear, you think, you touch IS REAL. We are subjects and base our lifes in subjectivity, I don't even know if you exist or not because I can only be aware of my own existence. So all the things that have an impact on my persona are definitely real. And as I have said, my ideas don't collapse with any other thinking, but I can't stand people who have read 4 or 5 pages of wikipedia and searched for deseases in google and think they have the obligation to show others how ignorant they are.


Imagine this scenario. Imagine you were walking down the sidewalk and you saw a person talking to themselves. When you asked them what they were doing, they said they were talking to their friends The Beatles. You ask what they meant, and they told you that they were talking to the actual Beatles. John, Paul, Ringo, and George were standing there conversing with this lonely man.

Now obviously he's insane, right? I mean, he's standing there talking to himself, while believing he's talking to the band The Beatles.

So would you honestly entertain the idea that he's actually speaking with The Beatles? Would you really, truly entertain the idea that this was possible? Or would you laugh and blow him off because you know he's insane? I'm absolutely sure you'd do the later.

In reality, being close friends with The Invisible Beatles is not much different than the things you're talking about.

To me he'll be just a crazy dude. Although he might be actually talking to them. I think you're afraid of seeing we're not all under the same web and can't be treaten equally. I'm not him, so I don't really know what he's experiencing and can't judge him. We all need to fit into the same patterns or we have a mental disease. Stop being a nazi, it hurts my heart.

ThreeEyedGod
03-29-2012, 09:48 AM
^ whoa, there goes the Nazi accusation

What was that one internet law?

Enigma
03-29-2012, 10:04 AM
^ whoa, there goes the Nazi accusation

What was that one internet law?

I'm not really accusing him, that was an intended joke. I know he's a nice guy, we just have different views I guess.

Golden Eel
03-29-2012, 10:14 AM
Reducing everything in numbers means to reduce everything into metaphors.

Such is the limitation of the human brain. Everything we understand about anything is a metaphor of sorts.


So no, you're not any closer than anybody else, doesn't matter what you have learnt or the evidences you have to prove anything.

So when someone says the tides are caused by the moon's gravitational pull, and someone else says that the tides are caused by Cthulhu, both opinions are equally valid. Okay then.


I don't discredit science, I admire the effort an it makes life easier and longer, why would I discredit that? I just think it may answer some kind of things but has no clue of other that will NEVER be revealed with numbers. You claim the universe is amazingly and incomprehensibily complex. Maybe I just figured that out and I have assumed this is the way it has to be. I agree, it is SO complex, so I don't think I could accept any explanation that tries to describe that complexity with a human subproduct of the language; the numbers. And please, look at yourself for once and see you are the only one who really discredit other people opinions and beliefs.

You're right. Scientific research will probably never fully and truly understand every single aspect of the cosmos. But it is a tried and true method for getting as close to the 'truth' as the human species is capable of. When, in the entire history of this species, has belief in the paranormal ever solved a single problem? Give me one example. Give me one example of something that was proven to be true by these ideas.

Out of body experiences would be so amazingly simple to prove true, if they were. Put someone in a room and put a message on a piece of paper in another room. If the proclaimed 'astral-projectionist' could read the message and tell someone what it said, it would be proven. It's that simple. Until something like that happens, there is absolutely no reason for me to view these ideas as anything than insane drivel.


Maybe I'm childish, and that's the way I see life. You grow up and they tell you to be this or that and people get extremely racional and base their whole lifes in trusting a small part of their brains. I would say everything you do in your life is guided by instinct or it is done subconsciously, which is not close at all to veing guided by any evidence.

I'm sorry, but this part is not debatable. The fact that you understand a complex language? Logic and evidence. The fact that you're able to type this message to me? Logic and evidence. The fact that you're able to put pants on in the morning? Logic and evidence.

Our masterful use of logic is the only thing that sets us apart from lower animals. So when people advocate 'listening to your gut' or anything of the sort, they're basically advocating acting like a lower animal. They're advocating cutting off the use of the most important part of the human mind.


Then there exist other things science can't even smell and if there's no evidence, it seems like they don't exist.

I think the problem is that people like you think of 'science' as some sort of institution that says what is real and what isn't. That isn't the case at all. Science is simply a method for testing out ideas to see what sticks.

Everything you're saying could be totally true. But until it gets proven in any meaningful way (anecdotal evidence is not proof), it holds no credence. It simply does not deserve to be treated as a valid option.


And as I have said, my ideas don't collapse with any other thinking

That's because your thinking doesn't involve the use of logic. The simplest amount of reason would instantly make you stop believing these ideas. It's too bad you seem to think reason is a negative trait.


To me he'll be just a crazy dude.

I don't view him as any more crazy than someone like you.


Although he might be actually talking to them.

Yes, a man standing on a street corner talking to himself, might actually be talking to The Invisible Beatles. There's nothing crazy about what you just said.


I think you're afraid of seeing we're not all under the same web and can't be treaten equally.

I'm not afraid of anything. In fact, I think you're afraid that humans aren't as special as you'd like to image they are. I know that basically every single human is guided by the same exact basic set of emotions and reasoning.


Stop being a nazi, it hurts my heart.

That's your problem. You're thinking with your heart and not your brain.

You may ask me, "Well, what's the problem? We're not hurting anybody." No, you may not be directly causing harm with your beliefs, but I view the propagation of your flawed thinking as a fundamental evil to the human species. Dogma and belief in the paranormal does nothing but hold back our intellectual growth. Look how far we've come in such a short time technologically. Now look how far we've come intellectually. Intellectually, we're not much different than the early humans. Still guided by petty emotions.

And the human species will never move past this, because of people like you and the people who advocate your ideas.

Enigma
03-29-2012, 11:03 AM
I think we could be quoting ourselves eternaly, so I'll try to keep it as simple as I can.


You're right. Scientific research will probably never fully and truly understand every single aspect of the cosmos. But it is a tried and true method for getting as close to the 'truth' as the human species is capable of. When, in the entire history of this species, has belief in the paranormal ever solved a single problem? Give me one example. Give me one example of something that was proven to be true by these ideas.

¿¿When?? Really?! Are you trying to eliminate decades and centuries of paganism that showed nothing but respect, humility and harmony for all kind of lifes and existances while using not scientific methods? Are saying that faith doesn't save people? Damn MixMastahTee, are you really saying that? Are you saying that having faith in WHATEVER doesn't make you stronger, or that being part of some sort of ritual is absurd? Or that everything we do is stupid? That our relations with other humans, animals or any part of the nature isn't especifically based on rituals that we can't avoid because WE ARE a part of that? The myths that were told long long ago explained a lot more of ourselves as human beings than a lot of science does nowadays.


I'm sorry, but this part is not debatable. The fact that you understand a complex language? Logic and evidence. The fact that you're able to type this message to me? Logic and evidence. The fact that you're able to put pants on in the morning? Logic and evidence.

Every animal is a world and every human being is another. I learned how to speak and write because I was prepared for it. Logic is not logic at all, just some kind of code we use to work. I think if we were only guided by logic we would be lost, would know what we're doing in life, where to go or what to do.


I think the problem is that people like you think of 'science' as some sort of institution that says what is real and what isn't. That isn't the case at all. Science is simply a method for testing out ideas to see what sticks.

With people like you, it seems like one big institution of arrogant cheaters.


Our masterful use of logic is the only thing that sets us apart from lower animals. So when people advocate 'listening to your gut' or anything of the sort, they're basically advocating acting like a lower animal. They're advocating cutting off the use of the most important part of the human mind.

Lower animals. Enough said.


That's because your thinking doesn't involve the use of logic. The simplest amount of reason would instantly make you stop believing these ideas. It's too bad you seem to think reason is a negative trait.

What's your romance with logic? I don't think reason is a negative trait, I just think a lot of people doesn't see reason is just a little part of ourselves and it is not that important as some may say. It is, but it has to be used among other things which are usually left behind.


I don't view him as any more crazy than someone like you.

Burn the witch.


I'm not afraid of anything. In fact, I think you're afraid that humans aren't as special as you'd like to image they are. I know that basically every single human is guided by the same exact basic set of emotions and reasoning.

We are not as special yet we distinguish from lower animals for being able to use logic. GREAT! We have a winner. So are we better or not?


That's your problem. You're thinking with your heart and not your brain.

You may ask me, "Well, what's the problem? We're not hurting anybody." No, you may not be directly causing harm with your beliefs, but I view the propagation of your flawed thinking as a fundamental evil to the human species. Dogma and belief in the paranormal does nothing but hold back our intellectual growth. Look how far we've come in such a short time technologically. Now look how far we've come intellectually. Intellectually, we're not much different than the early humans. Still guided by petty emotions.

That's, in fact, your problem. Believing that racionality makes you more human that emotions do.

To clarify, I'm not against science, I like to watch documentaries and I've been fascinated with space all my life. I just feel like there has to be a balance and you don't seem to have. So I'm not going to have it with you, I'm going to play the opposite role. If reading a lot of philosophy and becoming really exceptic, only believing what comes from my inner side is a "step back", then I'm sorry. But I've found my life is much better this way and things turn out to be easier.

Golden Eel
03-29-2012, 11:26 AM
Are you trying to eliminate decades and centuries of paganism that showed nothing but respect, humility and harmony for all kind of lifes and existances while using not scientific methods?

I certainly wouldn't consider 'not being in harmoy with nature' a real problem...


Are saying that faith doesn't save people? Damn MixMastahTee, are you really saying that? Are you saying that having faith in WHATEVER doesn't make you stronger, or that being part of some sort of ritual is absurd? Or that everything we do is stupid? That our relations with other humans, animals or any part of the nature isn't especifically based on rituals that we can't avoid because WE ARE a part of that? The myths that were told long long ago explained a lot more of ourselves as human beings than a lot of science does nowadays.

I guess you didn't understand me. I don't deny that belief can have a positive effect on an individual. That wasn't my point though.

But everything you mentioned could be solved just as easily with the removal of the paranormal from the question.


Every animal is a world and every human being is another. I learned how to speak and write because I was prepared for it. Logic is not logic at all, just some kind of code we use to work. I think if we were only guided by logic we would be lost, would know what we're doing in life, where to go or what to do.

You prepared how to speak and write through applied logic.

We'd be lost if we were guided by logic...? Logic is the thing that prevents us from 'getting lost'! Logic is what enables our relatively complex ways of life and human society!


With people like you, it seems like one big institution of arrogant cheaters.

Arrogant cheaters? I don't quite understand what you're implying with that point.


Lower animals. Enough said.

Lower, yes. If other animals were as great as humans, we wouldn't have conqured every single one of them. Do you know why the human species is at the very top of the food chain, by a long shot? Because our applied use of logic gave us a huge head start that other species simply don't have.


What's your romance with logic? I don't think reason is a negative trait, I just think a lot of people doesn't see reason is just a little part of ourselves and it is not that important as some may say. It is, but it has to be used among other things which are usually left behind.

I already told you my romance with logic. It's the sole factor that puts the human species above every other species. I'm not advocating that logic be the sole factor in your life. I just don't think you're using it to its fullest abilities, so I'm going to advocate it. Emotions are useful in many situations, but to live a life where emotions trump logic is to live the life of a wild animal.


We are not as special yet we distinguish from lower animals for being able to use logic. GREAT! We have a winner. So are we better or not?

We're much better in our applied use of logic. Other animals are not even remotely comparable in the intelligence aspect. We're just not so special that we have some universal consciousness or ability to 'communicate with nature'. We're the most amazing creature known to ever live, but we're still just a creature nonetheless.


But I've found my life is much better this way and things turn out to be easier.

You don't see a problem with that?

The thought that there's a god and that I'll go to eternal heaven after I die makes me pretty happy. But I don't believe that, because it's silly and falls down under the smallest amount of critical thought. Knowledge is far more important than emotional fulfillment.

I'd much rather search for the truth and be miserable than accept a fairy-tale and be happy.

Pasco
03-29-2012, 01:33 PM
That really sounds unhealthy man. Have you looked into seeing a professional? You're exhibiting some traits of schizophrenia.

I think that you like to provoke and that you are not at all concerned about my mental health. You just want me to get worked up and have an argument with you.

Regarding my stance about psycho-spiritual experiences and skepticism I refer you to the post I made in the new members introduction thread. Peace out.

iggy
03-29-2012, 01:40 PM
The zodiac thread made me decide to make this thread. I'm curious why people believe the things they do and interested in possibly changing their minds. So...

Which ones of you believe in alternative ideas, and why?

These would include:

- Religion/the Occult.
- Zodiac.
- Numerology.
- Homeopathy (acupuncture, Power Band bracelet, holistic herbs, etc.)
- Ghosts/souls (I know most people believe this and I'd be interested to discuss this one.)
- Anything else you can think of.

Please don't be timid and keep your ideas to yourself if you believe this stuff. Speak out!

EDIT: And I know some of these may not be alternative and sadly may actually be the status-quo, such as religion. But you get my point.


I don't particularly feel like arguing or elaborating my stances but from the categories given I believe in:

Religion
Homeopathy
Souls (not ghosts, there's a damn difference)

Enigma
03-29-2012, 01:44 PM
Well, I never said I believe in a heaven nor any of the shit you mentioned above. Again, you are putting your words in my mouth. I don't know if there's something or not after we die or if there was anything before, the only thing I know is being a good person and keeping a contact with my inner side makes things easier, just because I can be myself and be driven only by my own decisions. By the way, paranormal is something that is not normal, and to me, when something happens, it's because it is normal for it to happen. Like an irreal thing that exists becomes a real thing.

And no, there are no lower or higher animals, that's some bullshit the human being has created because every one of us needs to feel we are in the peak of the mountain. We are not. Neither better or worse than any miserable thing on this planet or the whole universe. There isn't such thing as better, we have invented that and now we walk claiming this wolrd is ours. Besides, if your concept of being better implies conquering and eating, I think you and I won't ever agree. There is no actual difference between you and a tree, in terms of quality. None.


We're the most amazing creature known to ever live, but we're still just a creature nonetheless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissus_%28mythology%29

Don't fall in love with yourself.

Pasco
03-29-2012, 01:48 PM
You obviously haven't looked at the post I told you to look at.

Golden Eel
03-29-2012, 01:50 PM
You just want me to get worked up and have an argument with you.


I don't particularly feel like arguing or elaborating my stances

If you guys don't want to have your beliefs scrutinized, don't you think there's a reason for that?


Well, I never said I believe in a heaven nor any of the shit you mentioned above. Again, you are putting your words in my mouth.

I wasn't implying that you said that. I was just giving an example of something that would make me feel better if I believed it.


And no, there are no lower or higher animals, that's some bullshit the human being has created because every one of us needs to feel we are in the peak of the mountain. We are not. Neither better or worse than any miserable thing on this planet or the whole universe. There isn't such thing as better, we have invented that and now we walk claiming this wolrd is ours. Besides, if your concept of being better implies conquering and eating, I think you and I won't ever agree. There is no actual difference between you and a tree, in terms of quality. None.

I think that the simple fact that we're able to have this discussion, the fact that we can even fathom the idea of superiority over other species, is evidence enough that we're objectively not comparable to a fucking tree.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissus_%28mythology%29

Don't fall in love with yourself.

I'm not in love with myself. I'm in love with my species.

Tell me when a tree writes a story like the one about Narcissus, and I may change my mind.

Golden Eel
03-29-2012, 01:54 PM
You obviously haven't looked at the post I told you to look at.

I read the post. It said you like to debate, but not with people who just want to win. Isn't that the point of a debate...?

Also, you mentioned that you don't like 'dogmatic skepticism'? That is hilarious.

iggy
03-29-2012, 01:55 PM
If you guys don't want to have your beliefs scrutinized, don't you think there's a reason for that?

I can't speak for anyone else, but the reason I don't want to argue about my beliefs is because I feel like an ass when I do. I spent 22 years exaggerating and yelling about how anyone who believed in anything even remotely supernatural was a fucking retard. To sit there and try to discuss my spiritual beliefs just feels more than slightly hypocritical.


Not to mention preachy as all hell. It's like a recovering drug addict, they get in your face about how drugs are s00per evil. Well I'm a recovering atheist, and I'm trying very hard not to get in your face about it.

Golden Eel
03-29-2012, 02:01 PM
I can't speak for anyone else, but the reason I don't want to argue about my beliefs is because I feel like an ass when I do. I spent 22 years exaggerating and yelling about how anyone who believed in anything even remotely supernatural was a fucking retard. To sit there and try to discuss my spiritual beliefs just feels more than slightly hypocritical.

Not to mention preachy as all hell. It's like a recovering drug addict, they get in your face about how drugs are s00per evil. Well I'm a recovering atheist, and I'm trying very hard not to get in your face about it.

I guess I just don't understand basing your life on a belief system, yet not being confident enough in it to argue it.

It always amazes me when people get emotionally defensive about their beliefs. They don't realize how much of their beliefs are based in emotion. They just want these things to be true. Not specifically talking about you, just in general.

Pasco
03-29-2012, 02:10 PM
I read the post. It said you like to debate, but not with people who just want to win. Isn't that the point of a debate...?

Also, you mentioned that you don't like 'dogmatic skepticism'? That is hilarious.

You are being selective about the parts which you adress. You left out the part where I say that I think skepticism is the most sensible posture to take unless proven otherwise. As you did not respond to the part where I said you just like to provoke and push people's buttons, I will understand this as me being correct in my assumption.

If you think the point of a debate is to win you are way off. Debates are about intellectual exchange, not prestige.

Do you not believe that atheism can be dogmatic?

Golden Eel
03-29-2012, 02:19 PM
You are being selective about the parts which you adress. You left out the part where I say that I think skepticism is the most sensible posture to take unless proven otherwise.

...so at what point does skepticism turn from 'sensible' to 'dogmatic'? I'm getting mixed signals here.


As you did not respond to the part where I said you just like to provoke and push people's buttons, I will understand this as me being correct in my assumption.

Did you read my last few responses to Enigma? It's not like I'm just trolling or flaming him. I'm offering up a counter-argument to the positions he has taken. If actively challenging belief in the paranormal counts as 'pushing buttons', then I guess you can consider my a button pusher.


Do you not believe that atheism can be dogmatic?

First of all, you mentioned dogmatic skepticism, not dogmatic atheism. Two entirely different things. There are plenty of atheists who believe in the exact things I'm arguing against in this thread.

Secondly, it depends on your definition of dogma. Dogma usually means a set of beliefs or rules, which all members of a group follow. As atheism doesn't have any defined rules or beliefs, no I wouldn't say one can really be a 'dogmatic atheist'.

iggy
03-29-2012, 02:22 PM
I guess I just don't understand basing your life on a belief system, yet not being confident enough in it to argue it.

It always amazes me when people get emotionally defensive about their beliefs. They don't realize how much of their beliefs are based in emotion. They just want these things to be true. Not specifically talking about you, just in general.



I'm perfectly fine with it, but we've already had the arguments before. I know what you have to say, and you know what I have to say as well.


You will tell me that anyone who believes in anything supernatural is an idiot, I argue that faith gives people hope and strength, then you argue that hope and strength are worthless, I argue that hope and strength are what make life worth living. Then the conversation devolves into petty insults about how youre a cynical fuck who will die sad and alone in a back alley somewhere, and how I'm justly blindly optimistic, ever ignorant to the cold harsh realities of the world, and will probably die with a big shit eating grin on my face.

Then we talk music.


So it's not really that I'm not comfortable enough with my beliefs to discuss them, just that I don't expect any new discussions will be had.

Golden Eel
03-29-2012, 02:42 PM
I'm perfectly fine with it, but we've already had the arguments before. I know what you have to say, and you know what I have to say as well.


You will tell me that anyone who believes in anything supernatural is an idiot, I argue that faith gives people hope and strength, then you argue that hope and strength are worthless, I argue that hope and strength are what make life worth living. Then the conversation devolves into petty insults about how youre a cynical fuck who will die sad and alone in a back alley somewhere, and how I'm justly blindly optimistic, ever ignorant to the cold harsh realities of the world, and will probably die with a big shit eating grin on my face.

Then we talk music.


So it's not really that I'm not comfortable enough with my beliefs to discuss them, just that I don't expect any new discussions will be had.

Well, I'm not sure it would quite go that way...

I don't think anyone with faith is an idiot. I know some very smart people with faith. And I certainly agree that faith can be useful on a personal level. I just morally disagree with belief in the supernatural. I'm not down-playing the hope and strength people can enjoy from faith, I just think there are other routes to attain those feelings. I think faith is a crutch which doesn't allow for any true psychological growth. People can certainly be happy and hopeful without it. I probably will die sad and alone in a gutter, but that's not because I'm a skeptic or an atheist. Those are two different parts of me, pure coincidence really.

But fair enough. How about a discussion about something else, because I didn't intend for this thread to be about religion, really. How about something a bit less personal.

How about the homeopathy thing? What leads you to believe that it really works?

Whisky And Speed
03-30-2012, 01:13 AM
Which ones of you believe in alternative ideas, and why?

These would include:

- Religion/the Occult.
- Zodiac.
- Numerology.
- Homeopathy (acupuncture, Power Band bracelet, holistic herbs, etc.)
- Ghosts/souls (I know most people believe this and I'd be interested to discuss this one.)
- Anything else you can think of.


No,
None of these as I am a technically agnostic about their existence and realistically speaking, I am an atheist.But I believe in an another alternative idea, the tea pot that rotates around the earth.

ThreeEyedGod
03-30-2012, 08:19 AM
I'm dissapointed there is a lack of aliens on this thread.

Aliens

The truth IS out there.

Enigma
03-30-2012, 08:32 AM
How about the homeopathy thing? What leads you to believe that it really works?

I've been taking homeopathy since I was a child, not by any personal decision buy because my mother did. I can say I have been through a lot of things and I am not dead nor I have suffered a lot or anything, but I won't assure it really works. The fact that I have been cured could be I believed my body would feel better with those capsules and it finally did; autoconviction. Be it whatever it is, it seems like all we need is a placebo and, as I have said, a bit of faith. Of course, when it comes to bigger things you need something more agressive, but I'm also quite sceptic about traditional medicine, or the way it is treated. You are a person and they should theach us the power we have to, somehow, heal ourselves or make the process easier.

What I mean is that, I've been having a severe audition problem lately and it was killing me, the pills they said me to take were not being effective and I felt worse and worse everyday. Since I woke up one day and decided I wouldn't go to the university anymore, because that was something I wasn't really enjoying and to me it was like wasting my time. Now I've been involved in some projects I've been creating and my life's taking a new direction, don't know if it will work or not. But the thing is; my audition has been improving since that day, I've been hearing more and more clear now that I've finally broke with all that stuff that was pressuring me. A poetic way to see it? I like to say my body advised me to listen to myself and stop listening what other people wanted from me. Some will say this is bullshit, other will see it as a beautiful interpretation of a fucked up problem. That's why I say I prefer to listen to myself rather than a doctor, no because he won't be trying to cure me, but because a lot of times the problem seems to be a severe emotional disorder that leads into some phyisical pain. When I'm emotionally good, I have 0 problems.

Golden Eel
05-15-2012, 07:17 AM
Dear hippies/quacks,

Can you stop using the term 'energy' in such a vague and meaningless way? Can you stop using the term 'toxin' in such a vague and meaningless way? Can you stop using the term 'quantum' in such a vague and meaningless way?

etc. etc.

Mugwump
05-15-2012, 07:24 AM
I wish I could light some sage and smudge MixMastahTee, but there isn't enough sage in the world to get rid of his negative energy.

:-(

Golden Eel
05-15-2012, 07:28 AM
I wish I could light some sage and smudge MixMastahTee, but there isn't enough sage in the world to get rid of his negative energy.

:-(

I just have some angry spirits haunting me. I'm sure I could find someone to cleanse them out for me, for a small fee.

Mugwump
05-15-2012, 07:48 AM
Maybe you should try Sex Magick or something. Or use your Satanic, spooky smarts to manipulate the spirits into doing your bidding.

Shangri-LIE
05-15-2012, 08:02 AM
What if God was one of us?

ThreeEyedGod
05-15-2012, 12:16 PM
just a fag like one of us.

sayyosin
05-15-2012, 01:41 PM
Dear hippies/quacks,

Can you stop using the term 'energy' in such a vague and meaningless way? Can you stop using the term 'toxin' in such a vague and meaningless way? Can you stop using the term 'quantum' in such a vague and meaningless way?

etc. etc.

I come across too many people who do this. It turns out they're full of shit when you start asking them what they know about science.

Atom
05-15-2012, 01:50 PM
Too many negative vibes in here, man. This energy is toxic, man.

Whisky And Speed
05-15-2012, 03:26 PM
Satan is my shepherd, I shall not want.

Dronepool
05-18-2012, 02:32 AM
Recent + random oh shit I have to be up in 5 in half hours thoughts:

Even if there is a Supreme Being, it would not demand belief in its existence . Just live life without being an ass. Treat people the way you'd want to be treated. Don't worry about what might happen beyond our perception. It could be total void or it could be something we as humans cannot even fathom due to our limited perception. Just don't use religion, know it all arrogance or a higher power acting like a baby because he can't get his way to scare people. If a person is just enjoying life without infringing on the unwilling... JUST LET IT BE! Even if it's ridiculous, as long as they don't try to impose, let them have their happy adventures in whatever they interpet.


People need to stop wasting energy on trying to convince the convinced what you are convinced by because everybody is human and no one human knows everything for certain.

ThreeEyedGod
05-18-2012, 02:46 AM
Recent + random oh shit I have to be up in 5 in half hours thoughts:

Even if there is a Supreme Being, it would not demand belief in its existence . Just live life without being an ass. Treat people the way you'd want to be treated. Don't worry about what might happen beyond our perception. It could be total void or it could be something we as humans cannot even fathom due to our limited perception. Just don't use religion, know it all arrogance or a higher power acting like a baby because he can't get his way to scare people. If a person is just enjoying life without infringing on the unwilling... JUST LET IT BE! Even if it's ridiculous, as long as they don't try to impose, let them have their happy adventures in whatever they interpet.


People need to stop wasting energy on trying to convince the convinced what you are convinced by because everybody is human and no one human knows everything for certain.

even if there is a supreme being, how would YOU know what it did or it did not demand?

Dronepool
05-18-2012, 08:09 AM
I don't know for sure, but I would assume it doesn't because the universe is too great to demand such a thing, but hey if it does, it doesn't matter to me. It's basically just my out look. Just live life, be a decent person and whatever happens 'after' happens.

Tabris
07-15-2012, 05:00 AM
In terms of ghosts from things that I have experienced I have to say there is something there that I can not explain with my understanding of the world.

It my parents home when I was younger the house was renovated a bit and my parents moved to a new room and I went to their old one, it didn't happen every night but sometimes as I was going to sleep or sometimes I would wake up to this sound of 2 men having a conversation from the other room, it sounded like a radio was on, I could never make out what was said but I would always get up to see who was up, and as soon as I would open my door the noise would stop. I would pass this off as some kind of weird thing my brain was doing as I was sleeping. However I brought it up with my mother and she told me she had heard the same thing in that room, exactly the same description.

Last year my boyfriend and I moved into a new rental place, my younger brother also moved in with us.
On the first day that we moved in my boyfriend closed this metal gate thing, you put a bolt in the ground and latch it togeather, he didn't get it right the first time so he double checked it and made 100% sure it was shut. We went out onto this porch thing and were just chatting and we hear this massive BANG we are all like wtf? and go check the gate that was now open, there was no wind, we could see the gate the whole time from where we were standing so there was so possibility of some person coming and banging it open, my brother and I just thought my boyfriend didn't clase it properly so the two of us didn't think much of it but my boyfriend was rather freaked out.

At the time we first moved in we didn't have our bed yet, so we were sleeping on the couches in the living room, in the night we hear this creak like a door opening, I didn't really care too much about it, just thought new house new sounds, later the same night we heard something fall in the bathroom. We could replicate this noise in the morning, but we could not replicate how the thing would have to have fallen, there was no way we could drop something from where it had been and have it not go to the other end of the bath, what had fallen had been on the same side as where we kept everything.

My boyfriend discovered that the creaking noise was this little gate thing to downstairs, so after hearing it a few times we just kept it locked.

One day my brother was at work, he would normally come home around 3:00pm, my boyfriend and I were just sort of lying in the bed talking, and we heard like cupboards opening and plates knocking against eachother in the kitchen, we just thought it was my brother, but when we eventually checked there was nobody there, he wasn't home.

Down stairs we mainly used from playing warhammer and painting it and stuff, I am not much of a painter but my boyfriend and my brother would spend time down there painting, my boyfriend was down there alone one day and in his periferal vision he saw some kind of greyish mist appear in the doorway, he has pretty good periferal vision from being a bouncer. On a serperate occasion when my brother was alone down there painting he saw a head peer in from around the doorway.. He never painted down there alone again. I personally never saw anything like it myself.

On another day my boyfriend picked me up from uni we weren't going to stay at home for long cause I needed to go to work fairly soon, my boyfriend was cooking up some food to have quickly before we left while I went to go get into my work clothes, I came back into the kitchen and noticed the door was wide open so I was like "Oh the door is open" and closed it, when we went to leave the door was deadlocked, you can only deadlock it with the key, I didn't have the key, I thought my boyfriend had it in his pocket, it was on the table however, but neither of us had locked the door.

The washing machine taps we found turned off one day, now those taps you connect the washing machine up turn on and never touch again, none of us had turned them off.

My brother's friend came over to play some warhammer with us all, he and my brother watched a cupboard door open downstairs on its own, this has never happened again before or since. we played till quite late then all went to sleep, the next morning my brother boyfriend and myself were all watching some youtube stuff on the computer. We all heard walking on the carpet, you know it is a pretty distinctive sound, we just thought it was my brothers friend getting up but he never eventuated, my brother went to look for him and he was still asleep downstairs, it happened again a little bit later, and my brother's friend was still asleep. When he woke up he told us he had heard the door open just before he went to sleep, this is the kinda door that is either closed or open, it can't open itself.

The house has all these sliding doors in it, on top of the doors is this wooden kinda cover thing so you can't slide the door off its rollers, they are pretty heavy and slot in over the top, they don't really come out easy at all, my brother came into his room one day to find this cover thing sort of pulled out and almost off away from the door, he was like "how did this happen??".

None of these hapenings any of us could explain, they and other less notable things occured from January to May and nothing of the sort has happened since my boyfriend's mother stayed with us in May.
My brother was a complete don't believe in ghosts kinda person untill he stayed here with us, now he believes there is something there, I guess I have always not really believed but not really disbelieved, now I am really kinda like well I dunno if it is ghosts but there is something there that I just do not understand, my boyfriend is the same.

brian219
07-16-2012, 07:41 AM
Most of my beliefs would be classified as "alternative ideas," even though they are all 100% true.

Also, ghosts aren't real. Peoples' "souls" or whatever cannot linger in this world. What most people refer to as ghosts are either residual imprints left behind by the dead or clever spirits masquerading as dead people. They mostly do this to confuse people and to encourage new age-y thinking. It ain't yo grandma.

Mugwump
07-16-2012, 07:45 AM
My Grandmother's spirit once came in the form of a bird and it flew in the house and refused to leave.

AssetReign
08-10-2012, 02:26 PM
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/527052_457420474280301_1686857934_n.jpg

1984
08-11-2012, 12:23 PM
Do you believe in life after love?

johncraze
08-12-2012, 11:50 AM
What I believe is that people are obsessed with the idea of a subjective-intervertionist god, because they like the sensation of being taken care of, and being loved by anything ( and much better if it is "superior" to you). But then how do you explain all the tragedies that take shape in this world? where is the big caring daddy everyone praises?, if a subjective god were to exist, he could be nothing else than a voyeurist sadistic fuck.

That is why I do believe in some form of higher being, but this being is objective, universal, defined by the laws present in reality. It doesn't step in, it doesnt "care" about you, and definitly it doesn't make anything for you. Because in the end, in our position as the only rational beings in this planet, we got the power of the mind n' our bodies ( our "micro-cosmos" in a way).

So... as beings with rationality, we can put it to work. Everything that stimulates it can affect our realities to our falls or to our advantages. A prayer can only mean anything if your mind believes it , a god can only step in if you really think it will, everything can get better ( or worse), if you put thought into it. Because in the end, everything is about the mind, not about an actual subjective entity with personality hovering over you.

The mind will do its work, if you give it reasons to do so, whatever those could be.

Golden Eel
08-12-2012, 02:17 PM
That is why I do believe in some form of higher being, but this being is objective, universal, defined by the laws present in reality.

Isn't the whole point of a 'higher being' that it isn't confined to our laws of reality?

FeedYourHead
08-12-2012, 02:31 PM
Isn't the whole point of a 'higher being' that it isn't confined to our laws of reality?

Do you mean laws of reality, or laws that are active on earth?
Because reality encompasses everything that exists or is "true," and if a higher being does in fact exist, it would be part of the reality of the universe.

AssetReign
08-12-2012, 02:35 PM
Isn't the whole point of a 'higher being' that it isn't confined to our laws of reality?

Whose reality? That's pretty much the point of "alternative" ideas.

Golden Eel
08-12-2012, 02:58 PM
Do you mean laws of reality, or laws that are active on earth?
Because reality encompasses everything that exists or is "true," and if a higher being does in fact exist, it would be part of the reality of the universe.


Whose reality? That's pretty much the point of "alternative" ideas.

I'm not sure I'm the best person to speak about this sort of thing, but when people mention a 'higher being/power', they usually mean an entity that can't possibly be grasped by our understanding of reality/physics/the universe/etc. As in, it's literally impossible to 'understand' a whole lot about the being. I know this is vague, but most descriptions of deities usually are.

If something can be grasped and explained with our understanding of the cosmos, like the thing that johncraze mentioned, I'm not sure if it qualifies as a 'higher power.'

Regardless, this is all just semantics.

johncraze
08-13-2012, 04:55 PM
I don't know if I would call it "higher power", but I would define it as the thread that pulls everything together, like just in the way things are and flow in perpetual motion. Not a "being", but more of a river that keeps flowing and we photograph frame by frame, to be able to understand it.

I'm talking more from buddhist points of view, where things like cause n' effect are held supreme ( karma), and the omnipresence of the lack of permanence in anything is a core concept. So the idea of an static-permanent "being" that doesn't grow stagnant or doesn't deteriorate, that lives in an equally static-permanent place, where everything is always the same, just seems to me preposterous n' an evident demonstration of Plato's philosophy ( he talked about the existence of a perfect incorruptable world made out of ideas, ringing any bells?) in all abrahamic religions.

Satan
11-22-2012, 02:42 PM
I really don't see the point of abandoning the mainstream religion and dogma to go to another one. I always thought the reason of ditching Christianity or Islam was to free yourself, not adopt yourself into new bullshit. I like philosophy, but I don't believe in astrology, numerology, or anything like that. However, I do find it fun to study.