PDA

View Full Version : Does it seem likely that...



KhristTheLord
06-04-2011, 07:43 AM
Eat Me Drink Me will remain as Manson's last gothic rock effort?

I don't think The High End of Low was very "goth", I thought it sounded more like a retro sort of thing. And so does the new song he put on Facebook, "I Am Among No One." Does anyone agree? Most of Manson has been predominantly gothic in architecture, except Portrait, maybe Mechanical Animals, though the message and imagery was pretty sick and would be considered "goth" by my standards, and Golden Age of Grotesque. I think since he's older, he's probably more interested in doing more retro-oriented 70's rock. And he's implied it himself he isn't interested in being scary, that's why he let his eyebrows grow back.
So am I the only one who see's the signs of gothic Manson being a past-tense phrase? I wish it wasn't true for several reasons. One of which is that an older man making scary fucking albums would be amazing. Alot of aging rock stars become cliches. You'd think that they'd get better at their craft and more scarier.
The High End of Low was a dissapointment for several reasons. The number one reason is that it was anti-climactic. He didn't rip our face off with what he was telling. That could be because it was him in a fragile state and so he expressed it in soft accoustics. But so should we expect him to rip our faces with the next one?
I don't expect heavy black metal from him, but I do expect something amazing. I expect something to make our heads turn. He can't weep over his personal life forever. There's bigger things to worry about and write music about. When the High End of Low was in its announcement stages, I was thinking, Man! The world is so fucked! He's going to have a field day observing and correcting our wrongs.
Maybe the world is too fucked to write an album over.
On the High End of Low too, with the exception of gems like Pretty as a Swastika, it came to me that he was running creatively dry. But why? How could you with all the world the way it is? I don't know, it just seems like you can turn on the news and write a concept album about it. Maybe I have my expectations way too high. But alot of his albums are held in high regard. Including Eat Me Drink Me, for me.

Lucille
06-04-2011, 08:03 AM
Manson has always been more of a darker glam than goth. I've never really seen him as gothy, in music or style. That's more of a media inspired description of him.

Anyway, in relation to his work, I choose to be optimistic despite my own disappointment with theol. I think the freedom he has now with the new record label could possibly be a doorway to something exciting.

The Empirical Guy
06-04-2011, 08:07 AM
Well... there you open up a can of worms. Many people have different definitions of exactly what is "goth". There are many people who would argue Manson was never "goth", and I daresay some of those people have played in the band at some point.

However, the one thing we should have all learned by now is, the most predictable thing about Manson is he is unpredictable. So, in that respect, you are probably right: we will never again see an album like those in the past as he and the band continue to evolve.

However, I disagree with much of what you say about THEOL. I don't think it is any more or less "goth" than previous albums, I certainly do think he ripped some faces off and turned heads, and I don't think you necessarily need to make grand sociological and cultural statements in order to make great music. To me, Manson's power has always been in his skill of observation, whether he applies that to society or the experience of human existence is irrelevant.

S.D.
06-04-2011, 08:16 AM
There's so many crossed-wires in this post I almost don't even know how to reply, but here goes.


Eat Me Drink Me will remain as Manson's last gothic rock effort?
The public and personal definitions of 'Gothic' are not only multifaceted, but also completely opposed to one another sometimes. The one instance of that word being used in association with the album was in relation to If I Was Your Vampire. It's definitely a dark and brooding record, but the more you go round putting labels on things for any purpose other than ease of classification, the more likely you are to start pigeon-holing the content.

The most concise description Manson has ever given of what he and his band do is 'Rock And Roll', and that's the best umbrella phrase you can use for it.


I don't think The High End of Low was very "goth", I thought it sounded more like a retro sort of thing.If it's malevolent brooding, dark morbidity, lyrics about death, destruction, failure and introspection you're looking for - i.e; things commonly associated with 'Goth' - then I can't imagine why The High End Of Low doesn't tick those boxes for you. It practically bleeds Goth lyrically, it just doesn't necessarily sound like popularised Goth records. But that's because it's a Marilyn Manson album, and genres aren't restricted to sound only.


And so does the new song he put on Facebook, "I Am Among No One." Does anyone agree?I don't know, the world has heard all of 15 seconds of it. It sounds Rock And Roll, hence the Johnny Rotten-esque vocals and buzzsaw guitars, but those things aren't really 'Goth' either.
Besides that, the title is not yet confirmed as I Am Among No One, it says on Manson's site and the video itself that it has no name at this stage.


Most of Manson has been predominantly gothic in architecture, except Portrait, maybe Mechanical Animals, though the message and imagery was pretty sick and would be considered "goth" by my standards, and Golden Age of Grotesque.Again, it has influences from Goth subcultures and music, but they're Marilyn Manson albums, unless he categorically says what his inspirations were, comparisons and genre classifications are subjective to the listener. You could argue that Mechanical Animals is by far the most Gothic album they've done, because it's potentially the most depressing. But then again, Goth and 'depressing' aren't always synonymous. See what I mean about subjectivity?


I think since he's older, he's probably more interested in doing more retro-oriented 70's rock. And he's implied it himself he isn't interested in being scary, that's why he let his eyebrows grow back.You may possibly be falling into the trap of taking Manson's off-the-cuff comments a little too seriously. The quip about his eyebrows was clearly made in jest. His personal reasons for shaving them off? I don't know, but I don't really think 'scariness' is a factor, if he wanted to seem less 'scary' he wouldn't be talking about bludgeoning women to death during interviews and then writing songs/making music videos about it.
Also, the 1970s and its musical output (from several genres) has been a large facet of Manson's work since day one, given it's what he and the band grew up with, so that's nothing new.


So am I the only one who see's the signs of gothic Manson being a past-tense phrase?I never saw it a particularly dominant present-tense phrase, so again, subjective.


I wish it wasn't true for several reasons. One of which is that an older man making scary fucking albums would be amazing.I think before the topic progresses we'll need to hear your definition of 'scary', musically. If it's relative to Horror, then the argument could easily and swiftly be made that Manson has more connection to that world now than at any point in his career.


The High End of Low was a dissapointment for several reasons. The number one reason is that it was anti-climactic. He didn't rip our face off with what he was telling. That could be because it was him in a fragile state and so he expressed it in soft accoustics.I am not sure there's ever been a known incident where a Marilyn Manson album physically ripped someone's face off, unless they were sat too close to the speakers, in which case they're an idiot and deserved it. Also, you might want to take the record out and give it another spin if all you got from it was "Soft acoustics"...


I don't expect heavy black metal from him, but I do expect something amazing. I expect something to make our heads turn. He can't weep over his personal life forever. There's bigger things to worry about and write music about.What if a person doesn't want to? Besides, did you skim over all the social commentary on The High End Of Low? Maybe it wasn't the crux of the album, but it was still present.


Maybe the world is too fucked to write an album over. Not at all, but maybe Marilyn Manson doesn't want to write an album about it? Maybe he does, we don't know.


Maybe I have my expectations way too high.It's not about high or low (I KNOW IRONIC GIVEN THE ALBUM WE'VE BEEN DISCUSSING RIGHT???), but more about whether fans get a far less expansive image of Manson stuck in their heads than he deserves. Not everything is about socio-political-sexual-fascist-religious-violent-drug-anthems, any more than it's about personal issues, or metaphorical readings of one's self. Music is written when one has experiences that can be documented or stories that are necessary to tell. Maybe Manson doesn't watch the news any more, and doesn't want to write songs about other people's experiences?

Lucille
06-04-2011, 08:17 AM
When it comes to Manson's predictability, I feel that while he may be unpredictable in some ways, he is incredibly predictable in others. The manson aesthetic, which has now become a charicature of itself stops his newer work from being a real breath of fresh air.

KhristTheLord
06-04-2011, 09:08 AM
There's so many crossed-wires in this post I almost don't even know how to reply, but here goes.

I was thinking on the spot ;) I don't think its right to act priggish when someone is obviously debating multiple things. I tried to tie it up as much as I could but for the most part I thought whoever read it could pick and choose.

And in your whole post you write like its a chore to respond to what I said. I pick and choose what I think is serious and what I don't think is serious pretty automatically. About his eye brows; its perfectly obvious he isn't trying to be scary. Just look at him. He doesn't wear contacts, he doesn't shave his brows, he wears these big thick glasses and dresses like your dad. Its perfectly obvious he isn't trying to be "scary."

About different people's construction of the word "goth", I don't care about that. I'm just saying what's obviously "gothic-themed-Manson", I'm not saying he's anyone other than what he is.

As for my definition of "scary", whatever Manson was doing in 1996 to freak people out like he did. But I take that back, it doesn't make any sense now. But I get confused easily so fuck you.

Nothing I say here even matters though because everything I said before is up for discussion by anyone who isn't on your high-ass steeple. NOT to be criticized by "administrator's" who behave like they know all and see all. This forum should be a friendly area of support, not some dumb thing where you're criticized by what you say, which I had a feeling would happen when writing the thread. So fuck you. And block me from the forum if that's what you're going to do.

S.D.
06-04-2011, 09:41 AM
I was thinking on the spot ;) I don't think its right to act priggish when someone is obviously debating multiple things. I tried to tie it up as much as I could but for the most part I thought whoever read it could pick and choose.
That first sentence wasn't intended to sound rude, I simply felt there were opposing or inconsequential ideas in your post. I was thinking on the spot when I replied as well, if there's anything that seems incongruous in there I'd be happy for people to pinpoint and discuss.


And in your whole post you write like its a chore to respond to what I said. I pick and choose what I think is serious and what I don't think is serious pretty automatically. About his eye brows; its perfectly obvious he isn't trying to be scary. Just look at him. He doesn't wear contacts, he doesn't shave his brows, he wears these big thick glasses and dresses like your dad. Its perfectly obvious he isn't trying to be "scary."Okay, well then it's probably wise to be more specific about what you're saying, Internet text is harder to scan for humour than other mediums.


About different people's construction of the word "goth", I don't care about that. I'm just saying what's obviously "gothic-themed-Manson", I'm not saying he's anyone other than what he is.You're using a term that has various cultural connotations and which people will associate with different things, but you don't care about those things because you already decided what it means? Well like I said, be subjective and all that, but it seems others have expressed that they see "gothic-themed-Manson" as having different definitions.


As for my definition of "scary", whatever Manson was doing in 1996 to freak people out like he did. But I take that back, it doesn't make any sense now. But I get confused easily so fuck you.Well that isn't very nice. I've read numerous descriptions of Marilyn Manson, and yes, fear is, or has been a part of what he does. Whether it's scary in the conventional sense though, perhaps not. I think the fear Manson inspired in people was more one of shame, or guilt, cultural anxiety. But when conversations start to expand we explore those things, like now.


Nothing I say here even matters though because everything I said was up for discussion by anyone who isn't on your high-ass steeple. NOT to be criticized by "administrator's" who behave like they know all and see all. This forum should be a friendly area of support, not some dumb thing where you're criticized by what you say, which I had a feeling would happen when writing that. So fuck you. And block me from the forum if that's what you're going to do.Hehe, calm down sweetheart, my position as Administrator has nothing to do with my opinion, there's numerous people here who'll tell you I would have responded in exactly the same way whether I was staff of this site or not. No one is censoring you, no one is telling you not to say or do anything on these boards, and no one is being rude to you. In fact, until the "fuck you's" started flying, this was quite a civil topic. But if you don't want me to continue debating in here, that's fine, I'll consider myself 'censored'... ;)
Part of the reason I don't get involved in many topics any more is because there's occasionally someone who sees the 'Administrator' part of my profile and thinks me disagreeing with them is some kind of official sanction.

Again, there's some things you wrote that others either queried or disagreed with, and that's the basis of debate. You asked some questions and people are answering them. If we stopped people from doing that, then we'd be on high-horses, but given this is just an Internet forum I'd say all the horses are about the same height. I'm not even on mine right now, I'm just underneath it trying to get some milk from its really long teet.

absinthe bunny
06-04-2011, 09:46 AM
Maybe Manson doesn't watch the news any more, and doesn't want to write songs about other people's experiences?

Well the last albums were just personal feelings (some 'lost' tracks like 'We're From America' aside, which felt a bit misplaced on the album tracklist) and didn't show much social/political/religious statements, but the albums that did have one or more of these as a theme always had a personal experience attacted to it.

KhristTheLord
06-04-2011, 09:50 AM
That first sentence wasn't intended to sound rude, I simply felt there were opposing or inconsequential ideas in your post. I was thinking on the spot when I replied as well, if there's anything that seems incongruous in there I'd be happy for people to pinpoint and discuss.

Okay, well then it's probably wise to be more specific about what you're saying, Internet text is harder to scan for humour than other mediums.

You're using a term that has various cultural connotations and which people will associate with different things, but you don't care about those things because you already decided what it means? Well like I said, be subjective and all that, but it seems others have expressed that they see "gothic-themed-Manson" as having different definitions.

Well that isn't very nice. I've read numerous descriptions of Marilyn Manson, and yes, fear is, or has been a part of what he does. Whether it's scary in the conventional sense though, perhaps not. I think the fear Manson inspired in people was more one of shame, or guilt, cultural anxiety. But when conversations start to expand we explore those things, like now.

Hehe, calm down sweetheart, my position as Administrator has nothing to do with my opinion, there's numerous people here who'll tell you I would have responded in exactly the same way whether I was staff of this site or not. No one is censoring you, no one is telling you not to say or do anything on these boards, and no one is being rude to you. In fact, until the "fuck you's" started flying, this was quite a civil topic. But if you don't want me to continue debating in here, that's fine, I'll consider myself 'censored'... ;)
Part of the reason I don't get involved in many topics any more is because there's occasionally someone who sees the 'Administrator' part of my profile and thinks me disagreeing with them is some kind of official sanction.

Again, there's some things you wrote that others either queried or disagreed with, and that's the basis of debate. You asked some questions and people are answering them. If we stopped people from doing that, then we'd be on high-horses, but given this is just an Internet forum I'd say all the horses are about the same height. I'm not even on mine right now, I'm just underneath it trying to get some milk from its really long teet.


I know but still you seemed nasty. Sorry. You still do seem kinda nasty, but I don't know, there's not really much else to say. I don't nourish my logic. Everything I was saying was pretty much simple things. When I say goth, I literally mean whatever goth is to Manson, which most people would associate with eyeliner, goth boots, and eh whatever else. I don't mean any Ancient civilizations, or The Cure, or anything else. Though Manson's live performances on songs like Just A Car Crash Away is very The Cure-like. Atleast to me.

In no way do I mean to be logical either. You just come off as Republican when you talk all confidently.

Cringeon
06-04-2011, 10:08 AM
To me EMDM is the most "classic" goth thing MM has done.

S.D.
06-04-2011, 10:15 AM
Well the last albums were just personal feelings (some 'lost' tracks like 'We're From America' aside, which felt a bit misplaced on the album tracklist) and didn't show much social/political/religious statements, but the albums that did have one or more of these as a theme always had a personal experience attacted to it.
I think on The High End Of Low, the tracks which have more of a cultural observation feel to them are Blank And White, Arma-Goddamn-Motherfuckin'-Geddon, and We're From America. It's definitely more Manson-centric than other albums for sure, and those are only three out of fifteen, but I guess when people say that element to the album is absent those are the three examples I would use. Some of the interviews and imagery surrounding the record correlated more with that direction as well, but not overwhelmingly so.
EAT ME, DRINK ME is unquestionably introspective though, I don't think anyone would be able to deny that.


I know but still you seemed nasty. Sorry. You still do seem kinda nasty, but I don't know, there's not really much else to say.
I'm not nasty, in fact I don't think anyone using this forum is. I'm sometimes confrontational, definitely, but that's occasionally the best way to get people discussing things. Plus I'm interested in what people have to say, if I wasn't then I wouldn't have answered this topic. Opposing opinions don't always have to mean opposing persons.


I don't nourish my logic. Everything I was saying was pretty much simple things. When I say goth, I literally mean whatever goth is to Manson, which most people would associate with eyeliner, goth boots, and eh whatever else. I don't mean any Ancient civilizations, or The Cure, or anything else. Though Manson's live performances on songs like Just A Car Crash Away is very The Cure-like. Atleast to me.
You see, now we're getting somewhere. :)

Using the term 'Goth' as you have above, and applying it to the original question, it's hard to say. I think when things like Antichrist Superstar and The Golden Age Of Grotesque were being developed, Manson was very deliberately channeling a certain essence, or mood in order to compliment the overall concept of those records. Now, the concept seems to be more focused on Manson himself, his psychology, his approach and reaction to things, whether told literally or using metaphors.
Interestingly, his painted artwork still flows between social commentary and personal reflection, but not as much as the music. Maybe he found a different medium for those thoughts?

Here's a way of looking at it; when Twiggy re-joined the band he addressed the whole dreadlocked, Kinderwhore aspect of his look and character in the past, and stated that it had been just that, a character. Manson was definitely using different veils to represent himself on albums prior to The Golden Age Of Grotesque, and now I think the concept is simply... Marilyn Manson.
The method of communication has changed because they have changed. It's similar to Bowie, the first ten-to-fifteen years of his career was really about masks and moods, never sitting still in his own skin, but after the drugs and the 'quiet' years of then 1980s, he simply became 'Bowie'. We probably won't see Manson with stitched-up eyebrows and a shaved head again, but that's not to say new music and imagery won't be unique or interesting in its own right, just different.

Thanks also, it's been a while since there was a topic people could get stuck into.

Dope Box
06-04-2011, 11:52 AM
I tried so hard to come up with a 'non-confrontational' reply to the OP, but I failed. I can't do it. Words like "lol n00b" etc just keep sprawling out from my keyboard whenever I try to write a reply. Maybe my horse is too high for some reason too? Its probably because my friends regard me good at Mathematics and ask for my help sometimes during preparations for examinations.


Part of the reason I don't get involved in many topics any more is because there's occasionally someone who sees the 'Administrator' part of my profile and thinks me disagreeing with them is some kind of official sanction.


That is just wrong. :(

ThreeEyedGod
06-04-2011, 12:04 PM
Not to worry my friend! Rumor has it that this newest album will be inspired by the Black Plague, so expect lots of morbidity goodness and swell Hot Topic merchandise coming soon to a store near you!

absinthe bunny
06-04-2011, 12:31 PM
I think on The High End Of Low, the tracks which have more of a cultural observation feel to them are Blank And White, Arma-Goddamn-Motherfuckin'-Geddon, and We're From America. It's definitely more Manson-centric than other albums for sure, and those are only three out of fifteen, but I guess when people say that element to the album is absent those are the three examples I would use. Some of the interviews and imagery surrounding the record correlated more with that direction as well, but not overwhelmingly so.
EAT ME, DRINK ME is unquestionably introspective though, I don't think anyone would be able to deny that.

These are indeed the 3 tracks that don't fit the rest of the album when you listen to it as the timeline/film it's intended to be. Esp. We're From America is the track that stands out, cause it's got a strong social/political statement in which all personal background seems to be eliminated. Compared to the lyrics on the triptych, which had a lot of political/social/religious messages in the lyrics but had multiple layers and always carried a more subtle personal undertone, We're From America is most more explicit, uncovered and in-your-face lyric-wise. But as mentioned, these are 3 out of 15 and the rest of the album is pretty much around MM's personal feelings, playing like a musical diary (The Nikki Sixx album the Heroin Diaries which was accompanied by the actual diary just popped to mind). The dark personal undertone (it's more Brian Warner then MM talking there) makes it a 'goth' themed album IMO.

And to add some wild speculations here: Maybe we'll get a more social relevant themed album nr 8. I don't think MM has too much personal demons to kill, and the 15sec we got seem to have a nice fighting spirit to it (this is combined with the CMYK-reference which was also reveiled). And (again this is speculations about speculations) maybe as some claim THEOL is a bit the EMDM2, and the band saved some new work for an independant and uncensored release. Maybe the harder We're From America was a little preview of what the new album would be like. All speculations, but I wouldn't be surprised if the new track would all have a We're from America-feeling, but with more reflection of MM's own experiences as a background.



EAT ME, DRINK ME is unquestionably introspective though, I don't think anyone would be able to deny that.

This is probably why it's the least favorite album of most fans. It's all personal reflection, while the best side of MM IMO is the mixture of social themes with a personal background. But this is off-topic :-)

The Empirical Guy
06-04-2011, 07:00 PM
If it's malevolent brooding, dark morbidity, lyrics about death, destruction, failure and introspection you're looking for - i.e; things commonly associated with 'Goth' - then I can't imagine why The High End Of Low doesn't tick those boxes for you. It practically bleeds Goth lyrically, it just doesn't necessarily sound like popularised Goth records. But that's because it's a Marilyn Manson album, and genres aren't restricted to sound only.


Damn your ability to regularly my thoughts in to words better than I can myself.



And in your whole post you write like its a chore to respond to what I said. I pick and choose what I think is serious and what I don't think is serious pretty automatically. About his eye brows; its perfectly obvious he isn't trying to be scary. Just look at him. He doesn't wear contacts, he doesn't shave his brows, he wears these big thick glasses and dresses like your dad. Its perfectly obvious he isn't trying to be "scary."


I don't have the exact quote to hand, but I believe Manson's attitude is that he's never tried to be scary or shocking, he's simply just been. Whether certain individuals find that scary or shocking is up to them.

Doppelgänger
06-06-2011, 11:54 AM
To me EMDM is the most "classic" goth thing MM has done.

what about Dita von Teese?

CellarOwl
06-06-2011, 12:04 PM
Not to worry my friend! Rumor has it that this newest album will be inspired by the Black Plague, so expect lots of morbidity goodness and swell Hot Topic merchandise coming soon to a store near you!

Considering how Hot Topic's rebranded into neon bro-lectro raver stuff, it makes sense with his CMYK colour scheme.

Shangri-LIE
06-06-2011, 07:41 PM
the meme that Manson has been given as being a goth is simply from a fahion standpoint, and not by each thing he has accomplished through the spectrum of his art. Goth to me has always been being melodramatic, pensive, over the top semantics that make you sick just for the sake of it without any real symbolical or clever objective. Being angry doesn't make you a goth, not does gore, and nor does even wearing eyeliner. In the modern sense goths have succumb to becoming homogenic symbiots who reject comformity but unite under their own. It'd really help if more people knew what to be goth really means, instead of pointinh binnoculars at the homeless looking pale kids and then looking at an artist and deciding that he is their archetype. Marilyn Manson is just the nexus of all generes, and he makes it into his own unique vision. No matter how obvious, or eccentric. He simply is just an oddity. Not a goth.

As with Eat Me Drink me being completely Gothic. I See a lot of truth in that. The Pining, the languishing over a lost love, and a dangerous liason with a girl twice his age. Writhing around in blood soaked copulation. Cutting and stabbing eachother for no other reason than to show utter devotion. The over all self centerdness about his personal anugish and wanting to kill anything that got in their way. Even from a marketing standpoint, it was marketed to teenage kids at Vampire Freaks, had many promotions with Hot Topic etc....