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Golden Eel
01-19-2012, 08:18 AM
I'm the only one I personally know that holds this opinion. Can someone tell me why? Why is it that just because someone is a service member, they're suddenly absolved of any moral wrongdoing for murder or other terrible things? Is it because they honestly believe they're doing the morally right thing? Is it because people are brainwashed throughout life into thinking that military members are the most morally righteous people on the planet?

I know so many people who realize that many wars aren't necessarily fought for morally justifiable reasons. So if a war is fought for the wrong reasons, doesn't that make the people doing the killing in the wrong? I don't get it.

Why are military members treated as heroes, regardless of why they joined or what they're really sacrificing their lives for?

Seven
01-19-2012, 09:32 AM
Servicemen and women are not absolved of wrongdoing. You need to look up the definition of murder - it is the UNLAWFUL killing of a human being with malice aforethought. A soldier can still be convicted of murder but killing someone in the line of duty is not unlawful.

The middle class views of the military really do piss me off sometimes. Soldiers are just people like you and me. The sign up because they want to help people, because they want to make the world a better place...not because they are raging psychos who want to slaughter the innocent by the millions. Politicians do that.

Where it gets murky is when questions arise about the morality of a particular war such as with Iraq. The blame for that lies solely and completely with the politicians and the corporations who control them....and in the hands of the public of a democracy. The question arises as to whether soldiers should refuse to fight based upon their own conscience. Well that is a difficult area. They take the 'Queen's shilling' so they have to do the job is the simple answer. They should however do the job within the rules laid down by the Geneva Convention and with the intention of minimizing any civilian casualties. If they do not they should be punished with the full force of the law. If a soldier genuinely believes that a war is immoral and his conscience will not allow him to participate then he should object. My son refused to go to Iraq because although he believed the regime to be an evil one, the timing and intent of the war was purely political.

Soldiers are not treated like heroes for killing people. They are treated like heroes when they do something particularly brave under difficult circumstances. Do not fool yourself, being a soldier is a dangerous and necessary job.

Golden Eel
01-19-2012, 09:43 AM
Servicemen and women are not absolved of wrongdoing. You need to look up the definition of murder - it is the UNLAWFUL killing of a human being with malice aforethought. A soldier can still be convicted of murder but killing someone in the line of duty is not unlawful.

I'm not talking about the legality of it, I'm talking strictly about the societal view of the troops.


Soldiers are not treated like heroes for killing people. They are treated like heroes when they do something particularly brave under difficult circumstances. Do not fool yourself, being a soldier is a dangerous and necessary job.

I understand what being a soldier entails totally. I'm not trying to imply that deserve zero respect, plenty of them deserve a lot of respect.

But I don't think that simply because you wear a uniform, you should be treated as a hero. I think this is where a lot of people disagree with me. I worked on a Marine base for two years and came in contact with tens of thousands of troops. They're certainly not all shining bastions of morality and they're certainly not all heroes.

However, there are plenty of Marines who are aware that what they're doing is morally wrong (like your son, who luckily did not go to Iraq), yet still do it. That's what I have a problem with. Most people I know seem to think troops can do basically no wrong. I think that sometimes, they should be held just as accountable as the politicians controlling them.

Seven
01-19-2012, 09:52 AM
I was personally against the Iraq war but I know people who were not. We all know the real reasons it happened when it did but let's not pretend that it was very clear cut. It wasn't. There were good reasons for going even for someone who accepted that the war itself was probably illegal. I would not demonize anyone for that - there needed to be a regime change but I don't think that a war was the best way to achieve it.

It is true that being a solder does not make you a moral person...like I said before, soldiers are just ordinary people and ordinary people are a mixture. So is the military.

The reason that people treat soldiers like heroes for simply wearing the uniform is this - putting it on says 'I am prepared to lay down my life to protect your liberties and to defend my country'. That is considered to be worthy of respect.

thedarkhorse
01-19-2012, 09:56 AM
I think soldiers are often revered because it is one of the only jobs that you sign up to with the full knowledge that you might actually die or be badly injured.

Shangri-LIE
01-19-2012, 11:30 AM
Before you read this, I am not trying to be a dick.

You are absolutely off the mark, MMT. They are actually held to higher moral standards, and rules in the military are more stringent than the laws that civilians must abide by, as a matter of fact. Now, you are right that they are ordinary people subject to judgement, as with all of us, for any crime that they commit. However, there is a respect that everyone must have for a service man or woman who defends your freedoms to complain, to vote, to make your own choices etc..

That isn't a "middle class" opinion. I actually don't know who's asshole you pulled that from. Really. Source? You shouldn't have to respect anyone just based on their merits, or their badge, or their uniform. But you have to respect the job that these men and women do. I tell you what I want you to do. Go enlist, subject yourself to the abject horrors of combat, and when you are trying to escape a maelstrom of fire and bullets don't fire back, because after all, you don't agree with the justification for the war. (I'm not saying YOU. That gos for anyone). There're too many brats and crybabies in this world that need some realtime experience in other peoples shoes. (Again, not you. That gos for anyone).

Soldiers do not choose to go into combat, they are sent there. I have friends and family that are either military veterans or currently serving. As a matter of fact two of my childhood friends that I ran into a couple years back were in the same battalion and had 2 months home before being deployed to Afganistan again. I know plenty of people who are in the military that I'd love to just beat the fuck out of them for being assholes, but at the same time I know they do a job that not everyone can do. I don't respect everyone in uniform personally, but as much as it pains me I do show them respect for what they do even if that is the only respect I show them.

Golden Eel
01-19-2012, 11:37 AM
You shouldn't have to respect anyone just based on their merits, or their badge, or their uniform. But you have to respect the job that these men and women do. I tell you what I want you to do. Go enlist, subject yourself to the abject horrors of combat, and when you are trying to escape a maelstrom of fire and bullets don't fire back, because after all, you don't agree with the justification for the war. (I'm not saying YOU. That gos for anyone). There're too many brats and crybabies in this world that need some realtime experience in other peoples shoes. (Again, not you. That gos for anyone).

I will not enlist and go to war, because I know I'd be fighting in a morally unjust war. If I did decide to do that, and killed some civilians or people who were shooting at me, I'd still be a killer.


Soldiers do not choose to go into combat, they are sent there. I have friends and family that are either military veterans or currently serving. As a matter of fact two of my childhood friends that I ran into a couple years back were in the same battalion and had 2 months home before being deployed to Afganistan again. I know plenty of people who are in the military that I'd love to just beat the fuck out of them for being assholes, but at the same time I know they do a job that not everyone can do. I don't respect everyone in uniform personally, but as much as it pains me I do show them respect for what they do even if that is the only respect I show them.

Soldiers absolutely choose to go to combat. If they have a moral disagreement with the war, they can easily refuse to go. That's what a morally superior person would do. They wouldn't just blindly accept that their superiors said they had to go.

Shangri-LIE
01-19-2012, 12:02 PM
Again, off the mark. People enlist in the military to defend their country. They do not choose what wars they want to fight. They do not go into the military with a vendetta, go through basic training and then book a flight to a country of their choice where they want to kill people. Let me be real with you for a minute. I don't dislike you but you spout off way to much, Tj, about things that you don't fully understand. You have a lot to say and that is fine, but you cannot think emotionally. You have to think critically and detached from emotive persuasion. All you've done is profess naive diatribe.

Let's abolish the military and allow other regimes to take over, enslave us, kill us, but at least we'll feel better at the end of the day because we have "morals". Let's just end war and have nothing but peace man, love and pot man. See how ridiculous that sounds? You will not win. Say it to yourself. You will not win this.

Golden Eel
01-19-2012, 12:12 PM
Again, off the mark. People enlist in the military to defend their country. They do not choose what wars they want to fight. They do not go into the military with a vendetta, go through basic training and then book a flight to a country of their choice where they want to kill people. Let me be real with you for a minute. I don't dislike you but you spout off way to much, Tj, about things that you don't fully understand. You have a lot to say and that is fine, but you cannot think emotionally. You have to think critically and detached from emotive persuasion. All you've done is profess naive diatribe.

They do choose. Did you miss what I said? If they don't want to go, they don't have to. They can easily say 'no'. If they morally disagree with the war, they should say no.


Let's abolish the military and allow other regimes to take over, enslave us, kill us, but at least we'll feel better at the end of the day because we have "morals". Let's just end war and have nothing but peace man, love and pot man. See how ridiculous that sounds? You will not win. Say it to yourself. You will not win this.

Did I say anything anti-war? I'm well aware what a necessary evil war is, and I don't think the military should be abolished.

My point is that it's just strange how people respect anything wearing a uniform, when in reality, many of those in uniform are not respectable people. Many, meaning not most or all.

Shangri-LIE
01-19-2012, 12:26 PM
Noo a soldier cannot simply refuse to go to war. They'd be in dereliction of duty, arrested, court martialed and sent to prison. Being deployed is a lawful order. Also remember those that fail to comply and are dishonorably dischared, or if people do not enlist that means that the draft will be reinstated. That of course means that even if you are not in the service, you will be forced to go to war whether you agree with it or not. As for the "Respect", I adressed that in my original post. Let's get back on track and discuss that because we are not going to see eye to eye on what we're discussing as of this moment.

ThreeEyedGod
01-19-2012, 01:08 PM
war forever.

will never change.

need war. we must have war. war advances society...war regresses society.

war forever

Shangri-LIE
01-19-2012, 01:13 PM
^ Do you ever reply to anything seriously, ThreeEyedSarcastiCat?

ThreeEyedGod
01-19-2012, 04:06 PM
I was being totes serious.

go back and read it again. I will elaborate more on what I am trying to say, but the essense of my point is there to see.

Golden Eel
01-19-2012, 09:13 PM
Noo a soldier cannot simply refuse to go to war. They'd be in dereliction of duty, arrested, court martialed and sent to prison. Being deployed is a lawful order.

If you morally disagree with the war, you absolutely should disobey your orders and accept whatever consequences come along with that.

Seven
01-20-2012, 02:29 AM
I think your problem MMT is that you are coming from quite a naive standpoint by looking at this in very black and white terms. The world simply isn't like that and neither is morality. As I said, using Iraq as an example, there were good reasons for believing that it was a good idea to go in. In addition to that there were those who genuinely believed what the government were telling them. Yes, it was lies but it shows that we do not have the benefit of hindsight. You decided that in your view it was an immoral war and so you are demonizing those who fought in it.

My son almost went to prison for refusing to go and under normal circumstances he would have. The only reason he didn't was because there were so many objectors that the MOD were pragmatic and found all those who objected to be 'physically unfit' by failing them at medicals which they were forced to attend. It was a clever way of dealing with it, I'll give them that.

People always blame the soldiers when they should really be blaming those who start wars and that is politicians.

Golden Eel
01-20-2012, 02:43 AM
People always blame the soldiers when they should really be blaming those who start wars and that is politicians.

That's the point of this thread. I literally don't know anyone who blames the soldiers.

Okay, I guess I'm not explaining my point thoroughly enough.

This thread isn't about the morality of war. This thread isn't about any specific wars, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.

This thread is about the public perception of soldiers. I'm not saying all soldiers are immoral or anything like that. I'm saying that simply because someone is in a uniform, I don't think they should automatically be judged as one of the most morally righteous people on the planet.

I think that when politicians start unjust wars, they deserved to be judged as immoral cowards. I think when soldiers choose to participate in wars that they know are unjust, they do not deserve to be treated as heroes. I know too many people who gush and swoon the moment they see a uniform, and that's what I disagree with.

I know plenty of soldiers are heroes, no doubt. But I don't think that just because some soldiers are 'following orders', that they should be immune from any criticism. There are many soldiers who are simply hired cold-blooded killers. I personally have spoken with Marines who have admitted that they would do some obviously immoral things if their commanding officer ordered them to. I think some soldiers deserve to be held accountable.

Seven
01-20-2012, 03:46 AM
Do some people act as though soldiers are more moral? Yes, they do. Are they right? No, of course not. Most people that I have met have a great respect for the military, I certainly do. You are still making assumptions I think - why would someone fight and risk their lives for something they think is wrong? Unless they are a psycho, why would they kill for something they think is wrong (and most soldiers are just normal people, not psychos)? If a soldier fights they must believe they are doing the right thing in the greater scheme of things.

I will give you a real example - Vietnam. Now there was a great movement in the US against that war and eventually they were forced to pull out. The soldiers there suffered terribly, many of them still suffer now. When they came back to the US they were treated like shit by the public and their suffering was ignored totally. I have heard many people say that the war there was immoral and so the soldiers don't deserve to be treated well. I think that is horrific. Only in more recent years have the soldiers and what they went through been acknowledged. It is easy to judge - and it is easy to be wrong. I don't want soldiers who fought in Iraq to be treated like that regardless of my own opinions of whether the war was moral or not.

Hazekiah
02-10-2012, 04:00 AM
That's the point of this thread. I literally don't know anyone who blames the soldiers.

Okay, I guess I'm not explaining my point thoroughly enough.

This thread isn't about the morality of war. This thread isn't about any specific wars, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.

This thread is about the public perception of soldiers. I'm not saying all soldiers are immoral or anything like that. I'm saying that simply because someone is in a uniform, I don't think they should automatically be judged as one of the most morally righteous people on the planet.

I think that when politicians start unjust wars, they deserved to be judged as immoral cowards. I think when soldiers choose to participate in wars that they know are unjust, they do not deserve to be treated as heroes. I know too many people who gush and swoon the moment they see a uniform, and that's what I disagree with.

I know plenty of soldiers are heroes, no doubt. But I don't think that just because some soldiers are 'following orders', that they should be immune from any criticism. There are many soldiers who are simply hired cold-blooded killers. I personally have spoken with Marines who have admitted that they would do some obviously immoral things if their commanding officer ordered them to. I think some soldiers deserve to be held accountable.

Well, allow me to introduce you to a close friend of mine then!

:D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4CQ_1GWn4w

Golden Eel
02-14-2012, 03:39 AM
Well, allow me to introduce you to a close friend of mine then!

:D

Didn't catch your response until just now. Funny enough, Hicks and that bit was one of the inspirations for making this thread.

Constantly blows my mind how relevant Hicks' bits still are. He would be so saddened to see how little has changed.

MisanthroPope
02-14-2012, 11:11 AM
Most Military people I've met come off as righteous cocksuckers who expect to have their cocks sucked. Sad, because they usually get just that. I just know far too many signed up with least noble of intentions in mind. Hey, at least I might get some respect now, I didn't know what to do with my life anyway, let's kill us some dune coons.

That said, I'm glad they do what they do for whatever reason they decide to do it. Why? Because I don't fucking want to.

Golden Eel
02-14-2012, 11:20 AM
That said, I'm glad they do what they do for whatever reason they decide to do it. Why? Because I don't fucking want to.

That's a false dichotomy. The only options aren't 'they fight' or 'I/you fight'. There's a third option: 'No one fights, because we're not in any real danger.'

Though, to be fair, I'm talking about the USA. Not sure if you're from here.

MisanthroPope
02-14-2012, 11:27 AM
That's a false dichotomy. The only options aren't 'they fight' or 'I/you fight'. There's a third option: 'No one fights, because we're not in any real danger.'

Though, to be fair, I'm talking about the USA. Not sure if you're from here.

Yeah, we haven't quite made it to Utopia, though. For now, people WILL fight. That third option is going to be hard sell.

I am American.

Golden Eel
02-14-2012, 11:38 AM
Yeah, we haven't quite made it to Utopia, though. For now, people WILL fight. That third option is going to be hard sell.

Why exactly, do we currently need to be in a single 'war'? We're not in any of these conflicts for our own well-being. Every single one of them is due to ulterior motives.

MisanthroPope
02-14-2012, 11:47 AM
Why exactly, do we currently need to be in a single 'war'? We're not in any of these conflicts for our own well-being. Every single one of them is due to ulterior motives.

I never said we did. I don't call the shots. I was just saying that if we have to be in any war for any reason, right or wrong, I'm glad someone else is willing to do it. I don't want to get shot at. I want to hang out and stuff my face and watch movies.

Golden Eel
02-14-2012, 11:50 AM
I never said we did. I don't call the shots. I was just saying that if we have to be in any war for any reason, right or wrong, I'm glad someone else is willing to do it. I don't want to get shot at. I want to hang out and stuff my face and watch movies.

Well, that's kinda my point. We wouldn't have any wars at the moment if soldiers weren't ignorant enough to think it's a worthy cause.

MisanthroPope
02-14-2012, 12:03 PM
Well, that's kinda my point. We wouldn't have any wars at the moment if soldiers weren't ignorant enough to think it's a worthy cause.

I'm not sure about a fix for ignorance. I'm not even sure if they care about fighting for a worthy cause.

ThreeEyedGod
02-14-2012, 01:41 PM
in it for the money.

/endthread

rusty shackleford
02-24-2012, 01:06 AM
I think alot of people sign up for lack of another source of income besides flipping burgers. I used to want to join the military myself. It does seem kind of noble from a simple mindset and I'm sure lots of people think they are serving their country well. I also, however, believe that many join just because of racism and hate for others.

Ignite_Midnight
02-25-2012, 09:02 PM
Before you read this, I am not trying to be a dick.

You are absolutely off the mark, MMT. They are actually held to higher moral standards, and rules in the military are more stringent than the laws that civilians must abide by, as a matter of fact. Now, you are right that they are ordinary people subject to judgement, as with all of us, for any crime that they commit. However, there is a respect that everyone must have for a service man or woman who defends your freedoms to complain, to vote, to make your own choices etc..

That isn't a "middle class" opinion. I actually don't know who's asshole you pulled that from. Really. Source? You shouldn't have to respect anyone just based on their merits, or their badge, or their uniform. But you have to respect the job that these men and women do. I tell you what I want you to do. Go enlist, subject yourself to the abject horrors of combat, and when you are trying to escape a maelstrom of fire and bullets don't fire back, because after all, you don't agree with the justification for the war. (I'm not saying YOU. That gos for anyone). There're too many brats and crybabies in this world that need some realtime experience in other peoples shoes. (Again, not you. That gos for anyone).

Soldiers do not choose to go into combat, they are sent there. I have friends and family that are either military veterans or currently serving. As a matter of fact two of my childhood friends that I ran into a couple years back were in the same battalion and had 2 months home before being deployed to Afganistan again. I know plenty of people who are in the military that I'd love to just beat the fuck out of them for being assholes, but at the same time I know they do a job that not everyone can do. I don't respect everyone in uniform personally, but as much as it pains me I do show them respect for what they do even if that is the only respect I show them.

As a Veteran who is currently 5 months out of service, I am inclined to agree with you for the most part. I think your mostly spot on. BTW are you still active or seperated from the millitary? Don't have to answer that last one if you don't want to just curious is all.

Golden Eel
02-25-2012, 09:14 PM
As a Veteran who is currently 5 months out of service, I am inclined to agree with you for the most part. I think your mostly spot on. BTW are you still active or seperated from the millitary? Don't have to answer that last one if you don't want to just curious is all.

So you agreed morally with the war you fought in?

What would you do if your CO told you to do something you morally disagreed with?

Ignite_Midnight
02-25-2012, 09:34 PM
So you agreed morally with the war you fought in?

What would you do if your CO told you to do something you morally disagreed with?

Ah my friend here is the beauty of it the way the military is designed today if a superior gives you an order that is personally, legally or moraally wrong you have the right to disobey the order and report that superior.

For example if in a foreign country combat zone you are given an order to kill a logal national just to do it, that is wrong and you can disobey and report who ever gave that command. The only time one is permitted to harm a non- combat related personnel is if that person decides to become combative, even then unless your life is in danger you are to subdue and not kill the target.

I repeat death is to only be dealt when your life and or those around you are in immediate and real danger.

You see my friend the Military as a whole has changed within the last several years. Trust me my friend in my four years within the military I was never given a order that was morally. ethicaly, or legally wrong. If I were to had been given such a command I would have reported the person who issued said command to the proper personnel and they would be punished in accordance wth the severity of their actions.

Golden Eel
02-25-2012, 10:02 PM
Okay, so you morally agreed every bit with the war(s) you fought in?

Ignite_Midnight
02-25-2012, 10:11 PM
Personally no however we can not choose when we go to war, wether we agree with it or not. It is the decision of the president and congress and we have no choice but to obey. That does not mean that even if we are sent to a war we disagree with that we can do as we please there are codes of honor and integrity one must keep in times of peace and war.

Though some of us fought a war we did not fully agree with as long as our integrity, honour, and ethics were not compromised we would obey the orders of our superiors in good faith that we would not be forces into a position that would desecrate our core values.

In short no I did not like the idea of going to war for the wrong reasons, however even though the in my opinion we would have been better off elsewhere, as long as I was not told to do anhything that compromised my core values I would obey. Are you following my train of thought my dear sir, or do I need to clarify my position further?

Golden Eel
02-25-2012, 10:31 PM
So you fought in a war you morally disagreed with.

You are the type of person this thread is about, a military member who doesn't deserve the respect they are given.

People who willingly sign up for wars they view as immoral are a huge part of the problem, almost as big a part as the corrupt politicians. I can give a small pass for soldiers who are too brainwashed or ignorant to release what they're doing, but not someone who actively disagrees yet still signs up.

You're right, we can't choose when to go to war. But we can choose whether or not we join an establishment that we despise.

Ignite_Midnight
02-26-2012, 12:05 AM
My friend you are making the assumption I signed up to go to war. I did not I served to provide for my family, get through college, see the world and serve my country even though the possibility of seeing combat exist. I have another revelation in my 4 years not once did I see combat I was deployed to Iraq yes.

You are aware not every service member signs up to fight they have ambitions goals and dreams and a genuine love for their country and the willingness to risk their lives to protect it.

I'm not going to deny there is corruption within the military as there is in every aspect of today's modern world but there are still those of us who serve or served with honor, and integrity.

I repectfully bow out now that I have said my piece for I wish not to anger or provoke you, if I have done so I promise you it was never my intended purpose.

My reason for not continuing this conversation is I fear no matter the valid points I raise on this subject matter we will not be able to proceed for it has already started to become circular, thusly halting any advacement or progress.

I am sorry that I was not able to ease your concerns, or adequatley satisfy your your thirst for an acceptable answer.

Best Regaurds,
Ignite_Midnight.

Golden Eel
02-26-2012, 12:32 AM
My friend you are making the assumption I signed up to go to war.

There is no ongoing draft. You signed up with the full knowledge that being shipped to the sandbox to fight in a war you disagreed with was a full possibility. Nobody signs up because they want to go to war, but they sign up complacent with the fact that it'll probably happen.

Trust me, I've debated joining the military many times. But the fact that there exists I chance that I may have to go to war persuades me from (willingly) signing up. It's good, easy money. But I couldn't sleep at night knowing I'm part of the problem.

There hasn't been any 'honor' in joining the military in many years.

Also, are you playing some character? Is there a reason you're talking with the syntax and grammar of a 19th century scholar?

Ignite_Midnight
02-26-2012, 12:48 AM
My friend I speak as I speak it is my way. Love it or hate it it's who I am. Honor dosen't belong to the Military but to those who join, serve, and seperate with their honor, morales, and integrity intact.

As I stated before there are some bad apples within the military, however one does not throw away an entire basket of apples for a couple of rotten cores, unless the entire basket be rotten in which case disposal would indeed be the most logical course of action.

Shortly spoken, Yes there are people who join for the wrong reasons, and give the military a bad name, However those are but a few.

Would you codemn, shun, and cast aside an entire group of people for the sins of but a few? I'm not trying to persuade you to join my friend or tell you are wrong in your view, I am merely letting you know there are still good people who serve their country for all the right reasons.

Don't let a handful of bad apples in suits and or military uniforms , dispell your faith in those who willingly serve to protect those they love, for you'll find we are not all monsters my dear friend.

Golden Eel
02-26-2012, 12:54 AM
those who willingly serve to protect those they love

That's my point. There hasn't been any protection in any of the wars in the past few decades. America hasn't been in any danger.

If America was in any real danger and people had to fight and die, those would be the ones who I'd respect.

And I'm not condemning the entire military, either. I'm condemning people like you, who are smart enough to realize that these wars are bullshit, yet sign up nonetheless.

Ignite_Midnight
02-26-2012, 01:23 AM
My friend when I signed the dotted line yes I knew there was a war and yes one I disagreed with and yes there was a chance that I would be deployed however small.

If that makes me a monster in your eyes I am sorry what is done is done thee past can not be erased. I do beseech you to take this one thought into consideration, when I joined I did so not to go to war. Yes the chance was still there. 9/11 was still a spectre that haunted the edges of americas nightmares. I was freshly out of high school, I saw it as a chance to grow, to live, to learn.

My joining was a bid for growth, physically, spiritually, and mentally to see the world in all it's wonders, to meet people around the world, live and learn the cultures of world.

Is there evil in that? In knowing the risk and the situation at hand yet seizing the moment to advance myself further into the lessons of life, adulthood and self discovery? Is there truly evil in that? If so I beg forgivness for what ever evil or pre-conceived notion of injury you feel I have inflicted upon the world, all I wanted was a chance to mature, grow, live , learn, and provide for and protect those that I love. If that makes me evil then I be condemned.

Dear friend, once more I apologize for any injury to your sense suffered from my service to my country and my people. I am not doing this in jest, but in all earnesty and sincerity.

Once more I would like to declare my respectfull with drawal from the subject matter at hand for I have spoken all that I would wish to say atleast publicly. If you would still wish to pursue further discussion of this matter I would encourage you to PM me and we could carry on our discussion therein
.
Thank you for discussing this matter in a civil an curt way and for enlightnening me to a whole new prespective of the subject matter at hand.


Sincerely with the utmost respect,
Ignite_Midnight.

Ignite_Midnight
02-26-2012, 01:31 AM
*Double Post

I shall adjourn for the night, any responses and or inquiries pertaining to the subject at hand, I shall tend to tomorrow. I promise to repond in due time.
Thank you and good night to all Provider Module personnel in attendance,
Ignite_Midnight

Emily
02-26-2012, 03:19 AM
How do you account for those who joined during a time of peace, and war was declared during their contractual agreement to serve? My boyfriend joined in 1999 not knowing that a terrorist attack would kill 2,977 victims in America on September 11th, 2001. How can you say that the murder of 2,977 innocent people is not incentive for a nation to adamantly fight against the perpetrator? Whether or not you believe the al-Quaeda had ties to 9/11 has nothing to do with the fact that they personally took responsibility over these terrorist attacks. Did my boyfriend sign up to fight the Taliban? No. In fact he was scheduled to be discharged from the Army in March when he got stop-lossed and was involuntarily sent to Afghanistan that April for a 15-month tour. When you work for the military you don't have political opinions, and you can't just say "I'm not going" because you work for your leader, the President of the United States, or you are sent to jail, stripped of your benefits, and it will go on your record that you were dishonorably discharged, therefore making it extremely hard to find a job as a civilian. Unless you were wounded, you were sent to Afghanistan during that time, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. My boyfriend was doing his job and I have the utmost respect for him and every man and woman who fought in the Afghanistan war. To say that he doesn't deserve respect is completely asinine.

In addition, when you say "the military", what branch, division, and MOS are you referring to? Many people only talk about infantry units, but the military employs hundreds of thousands of "soldiers" and many of them will never even carry a gun outside of basic training. There is intelligence work, delivery and transportation, media and design, health care practitioners, and culinary chefs that are a part of the military, and while they're not "killing in the name" they are by default contributing to the wars that America partakes in. Should they as well be stripped of respect simply because there is a stigma that ALL military men and women are blood-hungry killers?

I understand that this is an issue of morality. All that I can say is that morals are nonsensical and morals are what cause war and upheaval in the first place. What is morally right in one culture may be morally wrong in another. I don't care if something as trivial as being in the military is automatically considered "morally wrong" for you. That assumption is as blind as it gets. I give respect to those who deserve it, and I will unwaveringly stand by anyone who has served overseas in a war because I can only imagine what these brave men and women have had to endure. Be it "right" or "wrong" they have contributed to society more than I ever will in my whole life, and I respect them for it.

rusty shackleford
02-26-2012, 03:17 PM
I agree with whoever posted earlier we are not in these wars for our country. There ARE other reasons we are there. Mainly cash. There hasn't been a war we needed to be in since WWII.

Emily
02-26-2012, 07:05 PM
We were neutral during WWII until the bombing of Pearl Harbor. How is 9/11 not to be justified in that same respect?

Golden Eel
02-26-2012, 10:07 PM
We were neutral during WWII until the bombing of Pearl Harbor. How is 9/11 not to be justified in that same respect?

We weren't bombed by another nation's army during 9/11, we were bombed by a 'terrorist cell'. Huge different.

I'll response to your earlier post when I get a chance.

Golden Eel
02-26-2012, 10:09 PM
We were neutral during WWII until the bombing of Pearl Harbor. How is 9/11 not to be justified in that same respect?

We weren't bombed by another nation's army during 9/11, we were bombed by a 'terrorist cell'. Huge different.

I'll response to your earlier post when I get a chance.

Golden Eel
02-27-2012, 12:59 AM
Go to 29:25 in this video. He articulates my point perfectly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=iBXL36TOTYo#t=1765s

ThreeEyedGod
02-27-2012, 06:09 PM
My friends:

...88% join the military simply for the $$$$

/endthread

rusty shackleford
02-28-2012, 02:48 AM
What's sad is that the money isn't really that great at all unless you are an officer.

Ignite_Midnight
02-28-2012, 08:30 PM
What's sad is that the money isn't really that great at all unless you are an officer.

Quoted for the truth.
I'm making more money going to school as veteran, than I ever did through out the entirety of my service.

rusty shackleford
02-28-2012, 10:42 PM
Man, that's not even right! I didn't really know much about the pay until one of my friend's brothers went and I figured out you could pretty much make more working in fast food. That is just fucking terrible.

Ignite_Midnight
02-29-2012, 08:50 PM
Yes my friend “Military-Pay”, may leave much to be desired for the (enlisted) Military Personnel, however (Commissioned Officers)” or more plainly spoken “Officers” receive substantially superior pay.

The “Military” compensates for the low pay, with benefits that far exceed most benefits offered by their “civilian” equivalents. These benefits have the potential to carry on during and well after ones separation from the military.

For example when one decides to pursue their education within the military, they are capable of receiving the ability to have a free education.
Here is how it works. Let’s say “Jim” decides to join the military.

Upon completion of basic and technical training, Jim will be able to have a potentially free College education.
Once basic and technical training have been completed and you are assigned to your first duty station you are authorized to either pay into the Montgomery G.I. Bill or see if you qualify for the post 9/11 GI bill.

The Montgomery and Post 9/11 GI bills both can be used during and after your military service.
To sum things up what the military lacks in pay it makes up for in benefits you just got to want and know how to use them.

Education is just one of the many benefits the military has to offer. I could expand on many other benefits but this post is already long enough as is lol.

NOTE: I am not trying to recruit you, just telling you the pay may suck but the benefits rock.

ThreeEyedGod
03-03-2012, 02:23 PM
well that's it, I'm joining!!!!!!!

Sorry MIXMASTAH, but you can shove your anti-american sentiments up your communist tush!!

Ignite_Midnight
03-03-2012, 04:02 PM
O_O.........lol?