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View Full Version : BV and the Triptych - Crushing, cheating, changing/Creator, preserver, destroyer



Scorpion
04-18-2012, 01:32 PM
Does someone see a connection between those lines?
I always thought since No Reflection came out that ''crushing, cheating, changing'' that it was just a random line, but since I heard ''Hey, cruel world'' I think there's a connection here.

You see:
HW - Creator - Changing
MA - Preserver - Cheating
ACSS - Destroyer - Crushing

That's how I can connect them, and I'll explain.

HW is the proccess of the beginning, the start of all. So he has to create and change, he tries to change the world.

Then, in MA, he rises, reaches fame and success, and tries to preserve it, but then comes in the drugs and the fake illusions of a perfect world/person, and when he realizes that's not real, that the drugs are actually illusory, the 'cheating' fits in (as the drugs are cheating on him, by fooling him).

On ACSS, he's already corrupted and it's a soulless rockstar, thinking only about himself and his rise. He basically acts like a beast, destroying everything on his way up.

Another thing I noticed... in Hey, Cruel World he says ''Creator (HW), Preserver (MA), Destroyer (ACSS), ask which one I am'' and right away, at No Reflection, the order is reversed: ''Crushing (ACSS), cheating (MA), changing (HW)''. No idea why and how they can connect, but well, I guess it's something to think about.

Maybe I'm digging something that doesn't exist, but I couldn't help myself on noticing that 3-3-3 coincidence.
Maybe≤ I went too far, but I bet the ''creator, preserver, destroyer'' part does connect with the triptych, it is a really good coincidence to be just a coincidence.

Alternative thoughts are welcome.

johncraze
04-18-2012, 01:55 PM
Interesting interpretation, I never thought about it.

If one thinks about it. "Hey, Cruel World" is the first track, and right afterwards comes No Reflection. Perhaps the first is an image of what took him to what he is today: the path of creating, cheating then destroying. This is his past, this is the triptych.

Then when it gets to "No Reflection", is when he steps up from what his past was, and initiates a new cycle towards his future, a cycle that can't come to a closure like the one before it ( creation-preservation-destruction- the end). Because now the cycle Manson is aiming for is destruction-struggling-changing, seeing destruction now as the origin of a truely never ending cycle because change never ceases to be.

I think this makes sense taking in account what he said about "wanting to transform" and not to be reborn. But this is just an interpretation as well, so this is just my two cents.

VCR
04-18-2012, 02:05 PM
EMDM->THEOL->BV is a triptych about relationships. And it is backwards, just like the ACSS->MA->HW

everyone see's me as crazy but I see it clear as day

Cringeon
04-18-2012, 02:52 PM
BV is not tied to previous albums except that they all led up to this. MM has said BV is very much on a whole different level than EMDM and THEOL where as those albums were created as snapshots of that particular time. Yes, connections can be found in all albums because they are all about MM, but not directly or purposely tied to any larger story.

VelvetAIDS
04-18-2012, 03:02 PM
BV is not tied to previous albums except that they all led up to this. MM has said BV is very much on a whole different level than EMDM and THEOL where as those albums were created as snapshots of that particular time. Yes, connections can be found in all albums because they are all about MM, but not directly or purposely tied to any larger story.

Wasn't there an interview somewhere where he said BV was connected to the Triptych in some way?

Sans Agendum
04-18-2012, 03:11 PM
^NK said that this album is "The Father" of the triptych.

He's also been presenting three different personas in his interviews lately. A babbling fool who makes jokes from start to finish, A ruthless outlaw who makes threats and insults and An insightful mentor who talks about life and transformation.

Cringeon
04-18-2012, 03:11 PM
NK said it's the grandfather of the tripytch, but I don't recall MM saying that it's directly related to it. What he did say is that unlike EMDM, and THEOL is that istead of the purpose to try and make the listener feel what he did, he was going back to a more narative way of telling a story. I think I guess in that way you can draw similarities in their approach but with the triptych being a very specific body of work that together gives a very specific message I find it hard to see how that story would continue. It really would be the opposite of MM talking about returning to his reasons for making music since it would just be repeating himself. Of course, until the album is out and people can actually view Born Villain as a complete piece of work, there's no real way to connect it directly except for perhaps just sound and approach.

Shangri-LIE
04-18-2012, 04:19 PM
I think people read too much into things. There are things that can be broken down, or paralleled, but why not just allow yourselves to be entertained? Sometimes you just have to accept something in the most rudimentary form and experience it. The record hasn't even been released and there already several threads where people are trying dissect every little lyric, or screenshot, or image. Not to say that reading through some of these aren't interesting.

R_Flagg
04-19-2012, 03:48 AM
I don't think he's in the same mindset anymore to link current music to the triptych. Even back in those days he kinda made it up as he went along since there's no way he'd be thinking about HW in the ACSS era. I agree with Shangri-LIE in that you can often see similarities in style or phrasing, but that doesn't mean there's any connections present. Frankly I would prefer it if there weren't. There's an entirely different mindset, tone and meaning between those two trilogies and I feel both get sort of spoiled when you start mixing them.

Sans Agendum
04-19-2012, 04:13 AM
Wow. This forum is way out of touch.

He wanted to perform each album from the triptych in one off live performances. He made some photos with Dean Karr that recreated the vibe of Triptych era imagery. Hugh said that this album is the one fans have been waiting for. He said that he's back into a frame of mind of mind he was in back in the day. Twiggy compared this album to Mechanical Animals. NK said this album is The Father of the Triptych. Manson said that ACSS was the beginning of a spell and this album was it's completion. On Fleicher's Universe dude said it was like this album was a new beginning and recreation of the past.

And somehow you guys cannot wrap your minds around a relationship between this album and the triptych.

Have fun sticking out like philosophical sore thumbs but this album OBVIOUSLY bears a unity with those three records.

ACSS MA & HW = Analyzing the world. Creating a story.

GAOG EMDM & THEOL = Analyzing himself. Living out that story. Seriously. Coma White & Black. Rising and falling from fame. Working into Hollywood in order to destroy what he created and then destroy what he became a part of.

BV = A decoder ring that unlocks the code and message of his career.

R_Flagg
04-19-2012, 05:36 AM
And somehow you guys cannot wrap your minds around a relationship between this album and the triptych.

Depends on what this relationship entails I guess. I just don't think the things that were on his mind during those three albums are much on his mind nowadays. Back then it was mostly about society, or his role or feelings in that society. Now it's more about himself and how he feels. Like I said, it's not because he feels he has the spark he has back then that there is somehow a deeper connection between these two timeframes. But in the case of Born Villain I might be wrong I guess because reading the lyrics I still have no idea what it is about.

Sans Agendum
04-19-2012, 05:43 AM
^Thanks for taking one sentence from what I wrote out of context and spinning it six ways from Sunday.

In any case, Manson is a PART of society. Yes his work went from extroverted to introverted but it's not hard to tell that this recording is a bit of both.

If you really want to know I'd say the album is about how no matter what your intentions are, your creations take on a life of their own and that Manson had an intention with his art but it went out of control due to misunderstandings and misinterpretations so he then had a conflict in his life because of it that he's finally coming to terms with. He's done nothing but break the same old ground trodden by all of history's past philosophers and his fanatics have completely missed the point.

Cringeon
04-19-2012, 12:21 PM
He wanted to perform each album from the triptych in one off live performances. Back in 2010 as celebration of the old albums, and the lineup at the time.


He made some photos with Dean Karr that recreated the vibe of Triptych era imagery.Love these shots, but to me look very different than anything on MA or HW. I can see DK's style in the way he shoots, but definitely thought the images looked like new MM.


Hugh said that this album is the one fans have been waiting for.I think Hugh speaks that fans who weren't fans of the GAOG-THEOL era would like BV. Not that he speaks for the concept of MM's album.


He said that he's back into a frame of mind of mind he was in back in the day.Specifically, he said like when he first started music. So based on that, should we assume this album has some hidden connection to Portrait?


Twiggy compared this album to Mechanical Animals.Twiggy was asked what it sounded like, and he said he didn't like comparing but he thought it sounded like a more punk rock MA. MM said THEOL had the same attitude of ACSS. Didn't really mean a purposeful connection panned out.


NK said this album is The Father of the Triptych.His opinion, but again I think he meant to say this is big daddy MM. Not that it's a story connection.


Manson said that ACSS was the beginning of a spell and this album was it's completion. On Fleicher's Universe dude said it was like this album was a new beginning and recreation of the past. Don't remember these quotes, but haven't watched that episode since it aired. I remember him talking about how they time traveled to create ACSS, but don't recall anything about a specific connection.


And somehow you guys cannot wrap your minds around a relationship between this album and the triptych.A connection, yeah it has MM, Twiggy and Vrenna on the album who were on ACSS. Do I find any connection to the story of the triptych, no. I think people are confusing the mindset of how they make an album, or the way he writes lyrics as being similar to the style versus meaning they are directly connected. The Triptych is a very specific story that has a beginning and end. I don't really see how the story continues in the great scheme of it. Yes, it's all autobiographical, so technically everything MM has ever said is tied in that way but Born Villain isn't a response or follow up to those albums. It is it's own piece of art that represents MM being reborn not as the Triptych, but as the result of everything beginning, during and after.

brian219
04-19-2012, 02:23 PM
All of Manson's albums are introspective really. It's just that what is being seen and described is different in each release. The scale of the subjects is seemingly larger on the triptych than on the last two albums, but GAOG is typically seen as a lesser album and it's scale is gigantic, dealing with war and art and the history of both. I think what is really going on is that people still haven't really figured out why they didn't like the last few albums. It's certainly clear that the majority if the reasons typically given are utter nonsense.

Part of the problem is that most are convinced that they fully understand the triptych and that it has a specific story, despite how many contradictory statements Manson made during and after it's creation. One thing is for certain, we were never, ever given an official interpretation. What is generally accepted as the truth of it is entirely fan canonized speculation.

The Manson style is consistently cryptic and the only reason to do anything cryptically is so that it will be figured out. So to anyone who likes to throw around phrases like "reading too much into things," fuck you, you're a dumbass.

That said, I mostly agree with Brad's decoder ring analogy. It's one Great Work. If Manson had changed his views and such as much as people seem to think he would've started releasing his material under his birthname by now, because a cryptic and consistent message is what Marilyn Manson is all about.

Sans Agendum
04-21-2012, 03:54 AM
There have been plenty of interviews where Manson has stated his belief that people are able to communicate with their past selves and that humans can send back messages to our past selves in an effort to redirect ourselves in order to become who we are meant to be. He stated in a radio interview not too long ago that Antichrist Superstar was a message sent back in time and that this album represents the source of that message. He even said "That's how we're looking at the overall concept as a band" or something to that effect. He's basically claiming he's become 'The Father' character that was spoken of in the past albums. That THIS album is actually the SOURCE of the Triptych. There is certainly a connection between this album and the Triptych. It was in one of the recent radio interviews. I'll try to find it.


EDIT:
Here's a picture taken by Evan titled "Time Travel does not have an Agent". It sort of looks a bit like the album art don't you think?

http://a4.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/146/8b0fa935d7a74f2c94d827f1df3b615d/l.jpg



I'll try to find more about Manson and his time travel ideas.



I believe in dreams. I believe that every night on the planet everything that is, was and can be is dreamt. I believe that what happens in dreams is no different and no less important than what happens in the waking world. I believe that dreams are the closest thing present-day mankind has to time travel. I believe you can visit your past, present and future in dreams. I believe I’ve dreamt half of my life that hasn’t happened yet.

…I dreamt I was the Antichrist, and I believe it.

— Marilyn Manson, The Long Hard Road Out of Hell

Here's an old post from some other message board that explains a bit more of this theory.


If we recall from Manson's autobiography, he very briefly states that he believes that he/we may have intuitive dreams about the future. Either that, or, that we may actually dream the future into being. Whatever. At the same time, Twiggy stated that he and Manson had written the album, Antichrist Superstar, in the future and then went back into the past to record it or something like that. Then, ofcourse, there's the whole Feb. 14, 1997 date given specifically for the song Irresponsible Hate Anthem. Third, Manson used a clip from John Carpenter's film, Prince of Darkness, in a song. A feature of that movie is a transmission from the future projected into the mind of the protagonist warning her of what's to come. Finally, we have track 99, what is unmistakabely a message of some sort.

I think it's impossible to say whether or not Manson actually believes that he intuitively recieved lyrics or ideas from the future, but it is undeniable that with regards to the Triptych, he atleast wants us to believe that the Antichrist Superstar communicates with Adam/the Worm. whoever the fuck it is. However, I'm not entirely sure that he is trying to communicate a warning, or trying to ensure that Adam continues on his path to becoming Omega and finally, the Antichrist Superstar:



"This is what you deserve. this is what WE deserve/ This is something we have brought upon ourselves/ When you are suffering/ Know that I have betrayed you."


another interesting statement that I stumbled upon which applies to the topic of this thread.


His marriage to Dita led him to believe that he shouldn't be Marilyn Manson anymore. Dita certainly believed that there was a Brian Warner beneath Marilyn Manson, and I think she tried to get him to see that and leave the rock star-drug lifestyle behind and be "normal." I do believe Manson tried that. I believe that he loved Dita so much he truly tried to be a different person, but came to realize he was empty inside. He invested his whole life in creating this persona that when he looked underneath it he found... nothing. He became split between Marilyn Manson and Brian Warner, although he personally believes there's atleast two or three different versions of Marilyn Manson he shows to different people, I really believe that he says and believes that because he CAN'T bring himself to think of himself in terms of Brian Warner/Marilyn Manson. He can ONLY think of himself as Marilyn Manson, so he further complicates things for himself by creating sub-personas of Marilyn Manson to show to different people. In reality he has only two identities, but he considers himself to have atleast three. When he tried to seperate his identities and divorce himself from his persona he was faced with the emptiness of Brian Warner, a vaccuum of infinite space. Cutting himself off from Marilyn Manson, he lost all creativity; couldn't write, couldn't sing, maybe even couldn't paint. Dita ofcourse wouldn't begin to understand the true problem, and Manson wouldn't seek any help because he'd always believed himself to be in control and would NEVER do anything to relinquish that. So his marriage fell apart and that just made things worse.

Scorpion
04-21-2012, 06:30 AM
Great research, really interesting to read. /\

Whisky And Speed
04-22-2012, 01:57 PM
His marriage to Dita led him to believe that he shouldn't be Marilyn Manson anymore. Dita certainly believed that there was a Brian Warner beneath Marilyn Manson, and I think she tried to get him to see that and leave the rock star-drug lifestyle behind and be "normal." I do believe Manson tried that. I believe that he loved Dita so much he truly tried to be a different person, but came to realize he was empty inside. He invested his whole life in creating this persona that when he looked underneath it he found... nothing. He became split between Marilyn Manson and Brian Warner, although he personally believes there's atleast two or three different versions of Marilyn Manson he shows to different people, I really believe that he says and believes that because he CAN'T bring himself to think of himself in terms of Brian Warner/Marilyn Manson. He can ONLY think of himself as Marilyn Manson, so he further complicates things for himself by creating sub-personas of Marilyn Manson to show to different people. In reality he has only two identities, but he considers himself to have atleast three. When he tried to seperate his identities and divorce himself from his persona he was faced with the emptiness of Brian Warner, a vaccuum of infinite space. Cutting himself off from Marilyn Manson, he lost all creativity; couldn't write, couldn't sing, maybe even couldn't paint. Dita ofcourse wouldn't begin to understand the true problem, and Manson wouldn't seek any help because he'd always believed himself to be in control and would NEVER do anything to relinquish that. So his marriage fell apart and that just made things worse.

Very well said Sans Agendum.This paragraph summerises what the song no reflection is about.If you wanna more elaboration from my side just let me know.

thanks,

Antichrist
04-22-2012, 05:21 PM
Wow. This forum is way out of touch.

He wanted to perform each album from the triptych in one off live performances. He made some photos with Dean Karr that recreated the vibe of Triptych era imagery. Hugh said that this album is the one fans have been waiting for. He said that he's back into a frame of mind of mind he was in back in the day. Twiggy compared this album to Mechanical Animals. NK said this album is The Father of the Triptych. Manson said that ACSS was the beginning of a spell and this album was it's completion. On Fleicher's Universe dude said it was like this album was a new beginning and recreation of the past.

And somehow you guys cannot wrap your minds around a relationship between this album and the triptych.

Have fun sticking out like philosophical sore thumbs but this album OBVIOUSLY bears a unity with those three records.

ACSS MA & HW = Analyzing the world. Creating a story.

GAOG EMDM & THEOL = Analyzing himself. Living out that story. Seriously. Coma White & Black. Rising and falling from fame. Working into Hollywood in order to destroy what he created and then destroy what he became a part of.

BV = A decoder ring that unlocks the code and message of his career.

This makes SO much sense. I agree

VCR
04-22-2012, 07:03 PM
http://www.mansonquotes.com/embed-2794

I also tried to find the quote where he says he prefers when the listener comes up with their own interpretations of his music and it does not mean that it is wrong because it is what the listener believes.

Myself I believe that BV->THEOL->EMDM is a full story. different than the original triptych, but when I listen to it. or what I can from BV I can feel it. It is about him, his emotions how he deals with things. I wish I could find that quote but the search feature on MQ buggy as fuck

Whisky And Speed
04-22-2012, 07:47 PM
Can't believe that manson believes in that shit.I thought he was an atheist A LA Richard Dawkins style,but it appears to me that he believes in deja vu and past and next lives and souls and all of that shit.

Golden Eel
04-22-2012, 08:00 PM
Can't believe that manson believes in that shit.I thought he was an atheist A LA Richard Dawkins style,but it appears to me that he believes in deja vu and past and next lives and souls and all of that shit.

None of those things you mentioned have anything to do with atheism.

But yes, Manson believes in all sorts of bullshittery. It's sad.

Whisky And Speed
04-22-2012, 08:03 PM
But yes, Manson believes in all sorts of bullshittery. It's sad.

If this is the case, then you agree with me and the statement I mentioned above is still valid.This stuff has nothing to do with atheism because occult requires as much faith as religion it self, it is just sugar coated and less boring than religion ( and much less violent too).

Scorpion
04-22-2012, 08:05 PM
Hard to believe someone as intelligent and smart as him believe in these stuff, but oh well.

Whisky And Speed
04-22-2012, 08:13 PM
Hard to believe someone as intelligent and smart as him believe in these stuff, but oh well.

Maybe in 10 years we will see a conversion.Well, a religious one.

Golden Eel
04-22-2012, 08:29 PM
If this is the case, then you agree with me and the statement I mentioned above is still valid.This stuff has nothing to do with atheism because occult requires as much faith as religion it self, it is just sugar coated and less boring than religion ( and much less violent too).

Well, no. You can be a religious atheist. The term atheist only applies to belief in a deity. So you can believe in any number of whacky supernatural occurrences and still be considered an atheist. The only prerequisite for atheism is a lack of belief in a deity.

Whisky And Speed
04-22-2012, 08:41 PM
Sorry, I don't like to derail threads or spoil them but discussion sometimes expands.

However,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyvyyo0A2mk

check 3:51

Moreover,this video talks about the idea of the villain and it was in 2010 before announcing the album's title.

Sans Agendum
04-22-2012, 09:17 PM
Can't believe that manson believes in that shit.I thought he was an atheist A LA Richard Dawkins style,but it appears to me that he believes in deja vu and past and next lives and souls and all of that shit.

Manson has never once claimed atheism or denounced the idea of God or Jesus. He has only ever railed against Religious institutions. He's always been quite spiritual and open minded.


http://www.mansonquotes.com/embed-2794

I also tried to find the quote where he says he prefers when the listener comes up with their own interpretations of his music and it does not mean that it is wrong because it is what the listener believes.

Myself I believe that BV->THEOL->EMDM is a full story. different than the original triptych, but when I listen to it. or what I can from BV I can feel it. It is about him, his emotions how he deals with things. I wish I could find that quote but the search feature on MQ buggy as fuck
GAOG, EMDM and THEOL were all chronologically written albums. So they are a TRILOGY. Where as the Triptych is overlapping and non-linear. I feel the Lyrics of Born Villain are incredibly biographical to Manson. More so than usual. Going back not just on recent events but his entire career and combining the Fiction of the Triptych with his life as presented in the Trilogy of GAOG onward. Creating the best of all worlds.

EverInfamousReaper
04-22-2012, 09:20 PM
Hard to believe someone as intelligent and smart as him believe in these stuff, but oh well.
Wtf does intelligence have to with what you believe in?

Whisky And Speed
04-22-2012, 09:23 PM
Manson has never once claimed atheism or denounced the idea of God or Jesus. He has only ever railed against Religious institutions. He's always been quite spiritual and open minded.


He just burnt the bible a bunch of times.

Scorpion
04-22-2012, 09:32 PM
Wtf does intelligence have to with what you believe in?

Sorry, that came out really rude. I just meant that if you believe in santa claus or anything like that, you can't be that smart. And if you are smart, and do believe in it, then I find that weird.

VelvetAIDS
04-22-2012, 10:47 PM
Manson has never once claimed atheism or denounced the idea of God or Jesus. He has only ever railed against Religious institutions. He's always been quite spiritual and open minded.

^This. It's never been hidden people, he's been pretty fucking obvious....if you haven't noticed by NOW.....*headdesk*

Sans Agendum
04-22-2012, 11:14 PM
He just burnt the bible a bunch of times.

The Bible is a compilation of scripture that was compiled by the early Roman Catholic Church when it adopted 'Christianity' as it's new national religion. I always felt those who adore the Bible so much are practicing a form of idolatry, in that sense it becomes a 'wooden god' and MUST therefore 'be burned'.


“You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;


Break down their altars and smash their sacred pillars. Burn their Asherah poles and cut down their carved idols. Completely erase the names of their gods!

Against All gods

Golden Eel
04-22-2012, 11:34 PM
Wtf does intelligence have to with what you believe in?

Is this a serious question? It's phrased as if 'beliefs' have nothing to do with intelligence, which I can assure you is not the case. Like Scorpion said, would you consider someone who holds a belief in Santa Clause to be particularly intelligent? Would you let them babysit your children?

Fav
04-23-2012, 03:10 AM
To even remotely think that Marilyn Manson believes in the literal existence of Jesus Christ is absolutely fucking retarded.

Whisky And Speed
04-23-2012, 04:07 AM
Hi, all what I wanted to say is that the occult and deja vu and alchemy and souls are no less bullshit that religion itself and requires the same amount of faith religion requires to believe in and it bears the name SUPERSTITION. It seems that Manson is involved heavily into that shit therefore that doesn't qualify him to be an atheist.

Peace,

VCR
04-23-2012, 05:48 AM
Sorry, that came out really rude. I just meant that if you believe in santa claus or anything like that, you can't be that smart. And if you are smart, and do believe in it, then I find that weird.


What about people that believe in god? There is a shitfuck of stupid people on the planet.

Sans Agendum
04-23-2012, 06:35 AM
Wow. What a bunch of open minds we have on this forum.


Hi, all what I wanted to say is that the occult and deja vu and alchemy and souls are no less bullshit that religion itself and requires the same amount of faith religion requires to believe in and it bears the name SUPERSTITION. It seems that Manson is involved heavily into that shit therefore that doesn't qualify him to be an atheist.

Peace,


To even remotely think that Marilyn Manson believes in the literal existence of Jesus Christ is absolutely fucking retarded.


What about people that believe in god? There is a shitfuck of stupid people on the planet.

Good points! I hadn't thought of it that way!

EverInfamousReaper
04-23-2012, 06:45 AM
I've been tested at an IQ of 135 and I believe in god, maybe if it was a question of blindly following churches or something but believing in a higher power or creation or even like ghosts or something has nothing to do with intelligence and more so feelings and emotions which cannot be measured in intellect.

ThreeEyedGod
04-23-2012, 09:14 AM
Hi, all what I wanted to say is that the occult and deja vu and alchemy and souls are no less bullshit that religion itself and requires the same amount of faith religion requires to believe in and it bears the name SUPERSTITION. It seems that Manson is involved heavily into that shit therefore that doesn't qualify him to be an atheist.

Peace,

Ok, so the man believes in "superstisious bullshit". STop listening to him NOW! He doesn't qualify to be an atheist and this apparently does not sit well with you.

Sans Agendum
04-23-2012, 09:28 AM
Ok, so the man believes in "superstisious bullshit". STop listening to him NOW! He doesn't qualify to be an atheist and this apparently does not sit well with you.

Wait a tic. Are you saying that the word 'superstisious' doesn't automatically discredit anything not proven by modern science to you? Like that maybe the same as people thought the world being round was crazy talk and that maybe someday we'll have scientific evidence of realities we simply have yet to discover? Are you implying that maybe there's more to the world than what we experience with our still evolving animal senses?

GET OUT OF TOWN! That's just IDIOTIC and STUPID! D:

Whisky And Speed
04-23-2012, 09:38 AM
Ok, so the man believes in "superstisious bullshit". STop listening to him NOW! He doesn't qualify to be an atheist and this apparently does not sit well with you.

No Dear , that won't stop me from listening to him even if he decided to convert to liberal Judaism or Islam like cat Stevens who I didn't stop listening to after he converted to Islam.I'm not that twat and close minded.I started talking about this point because I found a contradiction between what Manson was saying in Hollywood especially in the songs Godhead and the fight song when he said" I'm not a slave to a god that doesn't exist"announcing that he is not a slave to a god that doesn't exist and between talking about Dejavu and souls etc,... and believing in it .This kinda confused me and added to this confusion what he said in the interview which I put a part from.



Cool down mate.I was discussing Manson's beliefs which aren't not a taboo and I didn't mean to backlash him at all and I won't, I'm just kinda confused .

Please, may any mod here take this discussion into a separate topic about Manson's beliefs because I felt that I derailed this topic.Again I'm saying that I was just discussing Manson's beliefs that confused me albeit it won't affect my fandom because this forum is about discussing the man himself and his art.

thank you all,

Whisky And Speed
04-23-2012, 09:45 AM
Wait a tic. Are you saying that the word 'superstisious' doesn't automatically discredit anything not proven by modern science to you? Like that maybe the same as people thought the world being round was crazy talk and that maybe someday we'll have scientific evidence of realities we simply have yet to discover? Are you implying that maybe there's more to the world that can be experienced with our evolved animal senses?

GET OUT OF TOWN! That's just IDIOTIC and STUPID! D:

Hi Sans Agendum,

The definition of superstition is anything we can't be sure of using our five senses and science couldn't find any proof of it's existence.This includes souls, fate, tarot, past and next lives, astral projection and some historical figures like Moses and Jesus and Buddha.

Gotta admit that we are close minded in a way or another whether we were Christians or atheists or Muslims .However, that is the norm and it seems that Manson is that open minded at least those couple of years and opted to try new things in life (but don't try Jehovah witness please Manson).

Sans Agendum
04-23-2012, 11:23 AM
Hi Sans Agendum,

The definition of superstition is anything we can't be sure of using our five senses and science couldn't find any proof of it's existence.This includes souls, fate, tarot, past and next lives, astral projection and some historical figures like Moses and Jesus and Buddha.

Gotta admit that we are close minded in a way or another whether we were Christians or atheists or Muslims .However, that is the norm and it seems that Manson is that open minded at least those couple of years and opted to try new things in life (but don't try Jehovah witness please Manson).
I'm sorry you thought there was some sort of discussion going on. I know what it means. The difference between you and the figures you pointed out is that they are still remembered thousands of years later where as you will be forgotten perhaps 200 years after your death, and when you're gone after that amount of time nobody will even remember or tell stories about you so you won't even be a superstition. Or even a historical figure. So I guess that means you don't exist. Just because you can't prove something with man made science doesn't really mean anything. It just makes you FEEL like you know something because it's the popular way of thinking.

Atom
04-23-2012, 11:29 AM
Well, no. You can be a religious atheist. The term atheist only applies to belief in a deity. So you can believe in any number of whacky supernatural occurrences and still be considered an atheist. The only prerequisite for atheism is a lack of belief in a deity.
"Religious" is probably not the best word to use, since many people associate "religious" with faith-based, and a faith-based atheist would not make any sense at all.

Being an atheist means that you are just as skeptical in regards to the supernatural because there is no scientific evidence to support it - just like god/deities. I don't believe in the existence of ghosts for the very same reason I don't believe in a god - There is no proof to support the claims that they exist. If I knew someone who believed in "whacky supernatural occurrences" and claimed to be an atheists, I'd wonder if they actually knew what atheism is.

Whisky And Speed
04-23-2012, 11:39 AM
I'm sorry you thought there was some sort of discussion going on.

What you call it then? what is your definition of discussion.I guess because I'm the one who started the discussion not an another intellectually superior member you don't acknowledge it.

Never mind,let's get back to the point.


The difference between you and the figures you pointed out is that they are still remembered thousands of years later where as you will be forgotten perhaps 200 years after your death,

And maybe after 10 hours of my death.However, if I managed to be famous don't worry about me being remembered cause it is still early to talk about it.I know that this was an example to help me figure out your point about historical figures.The problem is that Jesus didn't leave any Physical evidence to prove his existence.You compared me with Jesus and this is unfair because my existence is contemporary and if I died I'll leave material possessions like my clothes to prove that I was here while Jesus didn't leave any.The same case with the rest of the historical figures.Did you get my point? I meant physical evidence because physical evidence differentiates us from myths like Krishna and Buddha.We can prove that Hitler was real because of his material possessions and his body while that's not the case with Rama or Krishna.We call them myths because of their lack of physical evidence.

That's all.

Atom
04-23-2012, 11:40 AM
I'm sorry you thought there was some sort of discussion going on. I know what it means. The difference between you and the figures you pointed out is that they are still remembered thousands of years later where as you will be forgotten perhaps 200 years after your death, and when you're gone after that amount of time nobody will even remember or tell stories about you so you won't even be a superstition. Or even a historical figure. So I guess that means you don't exist. Just because you can't prove something with man made science doesn't really mean anything. It just makes you FEEL like you know something because it's the popular way of thinking.

Haha, "man made science". Yeah, there's no real discussion going on when you say ridiculous things like that in an attempt to discredit science. You're only showing your ignorance about the subject. Understanding how things work is not "man made".

Are you insinuating that because science supposedly cannot prove that something does not exist, that it therefor exists?

You're example is equally confusing. If someone is dead and forgotten for 200+ years that doesn't mean they didn't exist. Surely there would be documents and photographic evidence that the person you're responding to existed. That's also completely different than claiming that a man existed, was born of a virgin, had ridiculous powers, became a zombie, and was the son of god. There's no evidence to support any of that. Unless you consider an age old book that's been re-written and interpreted many, many times as being evidence.

Whisky And Speed
04-23-2012, 12:15 PM
became a zombie, and was the son of god.

I love zombies.BTW, Jesus was the first zombie, that's what Manson said not me.

EverInfamousReaper
04-23-2012, 12:32 PM
No Dear , that won't stop me from listening to him even if he decided to convert to liberal Judaism or Islam like cat Stevens who I didn't stop listening to after he converted to Islam.I'm not that twat and close minded.I started talking about this point because I found a contradiction between what Manson was saying in Hollywood especially in the songs Godhead and the fight song when he said" I'm not a slave to a god that doesn't exist"announcing that he is not a slave to a god that doesn't exist and between talking about Dejavu and souls etc,... and believing in it .This kinda confused me and added to this confusion what he said in the interview which I put a part from.



Cool down mate.I was discussing Manson's beliefs which aren't not a taboo and I didn't mean to backlash him at all and I won't, I'm just kinda confused .

Please, may any mod here take this discussion into a separate topic about Manson's beliefs because I felt that I derailed this topic.Again I'm saying that I was just discussing Manson's beliefs that confused me albeit it won't affect my fandom because this forum is about discussing the man himself and his art.

thank you all,

Manson never states which god he is speaking of in that song, that line is referring to people who try to force their religious beliefs onto other people, while we're quoting how about disposable teens? "I never really hated, the one true god, just the god of the people I hated." hmmm... maybe we shouldn't take what Manson says at face value?

ThreeEyedGod
04-23-2012, 12:33 PM
Can this brewing atheis vs. theist discussion please be moved to the already established debate looming in the Alternative Ideas thread? Make sure y'all look around first so as to not keep going around in circles.

Whisky And Speed
04-23-2012, 12:38 PM
I requested to move it to a separate thread already.This thread should be about Manson not alternative ideas! as it has nothing to do with it,unless that Manson is an alternative idea himself.

Whisky And Speed
04-23-2012, 12:39 PM
Manson never states which god he is speaking of in that song, that line is referring to people who try to force their religious beliefs onto other people, while we're quoting how about disposable teens? "I never really hated, the one true god, just the god of the people I hated." hmmm... maybe we shouldn't take what Manson says at face value?

Interesting interpretation and input thank you.

Golden Eel
04-23-2012, 03:28 PM
Wait a tic. Are you saying that the word 'superstisious' doesn't automatically discredit anything not proven by modern science to you? Like that maybe the same as people thought the world being round was crazy talk and that maybe someday we'll have scientific evidence of realities we simply have yet to discover? Are you implying that maybe there's more to the world than what we experience with our still evolving animal senses?

GET OUT OF TOWN! That's just IDIOTIC and STUPID! D:

Being open-minded to the existence of the yet unproven supernatural is perfectly fine.

Actively believing in the supernatural calls for open ridicule.

Learn the difference.

Whisky And Speed
04-23-2012, 03:30 PM
Hey mods,

I requested that this discussion would be removed to a separate topic about Manson's beliefs in superstition.No one opened a topic about it yet I think.

thanks,

Sans Agendum
04-23-2012, 04:24 PM
Haha, "man made science". Yeah, there's no real discussion going on when you say ridiculous things like that in an attempt to discredit science. You're only showing your ignorance about the subject. Understanding how things work is not "man made".

Are you insinuating that because science supposedly cannot prove that something does not exist, that it therefor exists?

You're example is equally confusing. If someone is dead and forgotten for 200+ years that doesn't mean they didn't exist. Surely there would be documents and photographic evidence that the person you're responding to existed. That's also completely different than claiming that a man existed, was born of a virgin, had ridiculous powers, became a zombie, and was the son of god. There's no evidence to support any of that. Unless you consider an age old book that's been re-written and interpreted many, many times as being evidence.
Admittedly "Man made" was a poor choice of words. Thanks for taking two words running into the deep end with them.

As for the rest of your floundering, a person described as you have probably would be rather easy to remember and talk about for a few thousand years. That book also containing histories of blood lines and chronologies of people that DID exist kind of would make it pretty random for the MAIN CHARACTER not to exist. I guess there was never a Solomon or any Pharoahs either.

Sans Agendum
04-23-2012, 04:26 PM
Being open-minded to the existence of the yet unproven supernatural is perfectly fine.

Actively believing in the supernatural calls for open ridicule.

Learn the difference.

Please draw the line for me, as I cannot stand being ridiculed.

Sans Agendum
04-23-2012, 04:27 PM
Hey mods,

I requested that this discussion would be removed to a separate topic about Manson's beliefs in superstition.No one opened a topic about it yet I think.

thanks,

Hey, you

I think Scorpion started this thread. Not you.

This thread was started about Manson's art and how it relates to other things. If you don't like the direction it's going in how about talking about something else while remaining on topic instead of just trying to get the shit you disagree with removed.

Golden Eel
04-23-2012, 04:42 PM
Please draw the line for me, as I cannot stand being ridiculed.

"I think unicorns could possibly be real."

and

"I believe in unicorns."

are two different statements with entirely different meanings.

Whisky And Speed
04-23-2012, 04:44 PM
I'm talking about the discussion i started 2 pages ago about manson's beliefs as I feel it derailed the original theard I'm not talking about renaming this thread.I may write in spanish or french if my english is that bad.

Atom
04-23-2012, 05:07 PM
Admittedly "Man made" was a poor choice of words. Thanks for taking two words running into the deep end with them.

Uh, thanks for quoting a post of mine that wasn't directed towards you...?

Would you mind explaining how I ran into the deep end with your poor choice of words?

Sans Agendum
04-23-2012, 05:07 PM
"I think unicorns could possibly be real."

and

"I believe in unicorns."

are two different statements with entirely different meanings.

Your whole unicorns and santa clause analogies are pretty insulting.

If you could be straight forward it would be "I believe in God" VS "I think God might be real".

Both of the above statements bare no regard to personal intelligence. Manson said during promotion for GAOG, when asked about his spiritual beliefs in God, said something along the lines of "I think this album is more about there being a God than there not being one, and human creativity is a reflection of the creativity that God would have."

He's said on many occasions that art is very spiritual and the closest things humans have to spirituality. So have fun ridiculing Manson, as if that isn't all you do any ways.

Sans Agendum
04-23-2012, 05:18 PM
Uh, thanks for quoting a post of mine that wasn't directed towards you...?

Would you mind explaining how I ran into the deep end with your poor choice of words?

You went on a tangent of cliche one liners about the Bible being re-arranged and Jesus being a Zombie (when he's quite obviously a Jinn, if anything).

Do you want to claim that ALL the characters in the Bible are false, or just the Main Character?

I guess there were no Egyptian Pharaohs either. Or wait, I guess you can prove them because of the Pyramids, but lets just ignore that there are descendants of people from the Bible still alive today. So I guess that because Jesus didn't have kids or pyramids built for him he must be discredited, right? That's the logic you're stating?

This is off topic though, so allow me to bring it back a bit. Manson has never once said that Jesus didn't exist, so choose to disbelieve if you want, but MANSON, who's art and beliefs we are discussing, has never said "Jesus was never alive". He HAS said that he feels a lot LIKE Jesus though and relates to him. He even quotes him quite a bit, but since his fans are so close minded towards scripture, not very many ever realize this.

Saying over and over again that this album is about resurrection and name dropping Jesus quite frequently and having "Not of this world" in the song lyrics... It's pretty freaking obvious that Manson finds some amount of worth in the figure, myth or real, wouldn't you say?

Atom
04-23-2012, 05:41 PM
Do you want to claim that ALL the characters in the Bible are false, or just the Main Character?

I guess there were no Egyptian Pharaohs either. Or wait, I guess you can prove them because of the Pyramids, but lets just ignore that there are descendants of people from the Bible still alive today. So I guess that because Jesus didn't have kids or pyramids built for him he must be discredited, right? That's the logic you're stating?

Nope. That's not the logic I'm stating. In fact, I didn't even say any of that. You are going off on the deep end with unrelated examples and assumptions. If you would calm down, read what I'd posted and try not to take it as a personal insult, then maybe you'd understand better.

I already said why I don't believe he existed. I don't believe Jesus Christ, the son of god/born of a virgin/who rose from the dead, existed because there's no evidence that a person could perform the supposed "miracles" he did - that's putting it in really simple terms. I don't believe in a god because there's absolutely no evidence that a god exists. So, I don't believe a god had a helping hand in his "miracles" either. There are many other characters that pre-dated Christ that shared similarities. The character isn't even all that original. There are plenty more reasons to not believe he existed than there are reasons to believe that he did, and was the incarnation of "god the son".

Sans Agendum
04-23-2012, 05:43 PM
Nope. That's not the logic I'm stating. In fact, I didn't even say any of that. You are going off on the deep end with unrelated examples and assumptions. If you would calm down, read what I'd posted and try not to take it as a personal insult...(and here I stopped reading)

First of all, thanks for once again sectioning off a snippet of my 'quote' in a way that allowed you to take the point I was making out of context. Again.

Secondly, I get it now. You're an asshole. Ignore list.

Golden Eel
04-23-2012, 05:49 PM
Your whole unicorns and santa clause analogies are pretty insulting.

There's an equal amount of empirical proof for unicorns, Santa, and gods.

If you believe in something incredulous, you should not expect to have those beliefs respected. If I went around telling people that I believed Bigfoot hung out in my back yard, I'd fully expect to be be ridiculed.

Atom
04-23-2012, 05:55 PM
First of all, thanks for once again sectioning off a snippet of my 'quote' in a way that allowed you to take what I said out of context. Again.

Secondly, I get it now. You're an asshole. Ignore list.

What did I section off or take out of context? Seriously... what kind of response is this? Myself and everybody else on here can clearly see that I didn't take what you said out of context. I quoted exactly what you posted in response to me.

Way to find a bullshit excuse to not respond. I guess I won't be getting an answer to this because you found it acceptable to insult me, make up some crap about me taking you out of context, and put me on your ignore list. You could have just called me an asshole and said you can't think of a decent rebuttal instead of making up blatant lies.

You must be a real blast at parties.

EDIT: Well shit, no wonder. You keep conveniently editing your posts. That's pretty weak on your part.

sayyosin
04-23-2012, 06:04 PM
Being an atheist means that you are just as skeptical in regards to the supernatural because there is no scientific evidence to support it - just like god/deities. I don't believe in the existence of ghosts for the very same reason I don't believe in a god - There is no proof to support the claims that they exist. If I knew someone who believed in "whacky supernatural occurrences" and claimed to be an atheists, I'd wonder if they actually knew what atheism is.

I just want to say that this definition is false. Atheism just simply means not believing in any deities. It doesn't mean you don't believe in supernatural entities like ghosts or souls. Just deities. Hence, "a-theism."

It's very common that most atheists are skeptical towards all of the supernatural, so I understand why you would say this. But it's just not what defines an atheist. Nothing else is attached to the word besides not believing in deities.

Whether MM is an atheist or not really doesn't matter. He can still be very intelligent and call himself spiritual..I'll still have the same amount of respect for him. He has never specifically refuted the belief in a god nor has he stated he believes in one. He believes in art, expression, and obviously himself. But honestly, I don't really care what he chooses to believe. Just as long as he sticks to it and continues to be true to himself.

With that being said, I really enjoyed San Agendum's interpretation of BV's connection with the Triptych.

Atom
04-23-2012, 06:08 PM
I agree to an extent. But the reason I said that is because typically the reasons an atheist doesn't believe in a god are the same reasons they wouldn't believe in things that are supernatural.

But yeah, you are right about the concrete definition. My bad.

Fav
04-23-2012, 06:16 PM
Wow. What a bunch of open minds we have on this forum.
Well then, get out of here and go back to your Bible stories. Nobody likes you and you don't contribute anything of value.

Sans Agendum
04-23-2012, 06:43 PM
Well then, get out of here and go back to your Bible stories. Nobody likes you and you don't contribute anything of value.

Wow, that's a really intelligent statement. I can't really think of any way to respond. You are scary smart!

Whisky And Speed
04-23-2012, 06:45 PM
I just want to say that this definition is false. Atheism just simply means not believing in any deities. It doesn't mean you don't believe in supernatural entities like ghosts or souls. Just deities. Hence, "a-theism."

It's very common that most atheists are skeptical towards all of the supernatural, so I understand why you would say this. But it's just not what defines an atheist. Nothing else is attached to the word besides not believing in deities.

Well, an atheist person doesn't only deny the existance of gods alone,but denies the existance of spirits, ghosts, magick, tarot,etc,.. just check writings on atheism.

I wanted to discuss the beliefs of the man himself and it's relation to his art.The first point I mentioned that believing in this shit doesn't make you an atheist anymore and that means maybe a slight change of heart from manson's militant hate towards these things to accepting it or believing in some of it.This change came gradually and let's take it in a chronlogical order.First, during portrait of an american family he was despising ALL of these beliefs and he was thinking that these beliefs were to control people's mind etc,... so I consider the era from 1989 till 1994 the militant athiest/agnostic/irreligious era.Moreover, this era was defined by the big influence anton lavey and his atheistic satanism left on manson and he was talking about satan and god as symbols for good and bad.In 1996 manson moved on from militant atheism towards occult and it came gradually till it reached it's peak during hollywood era.During ACSS era manson was still believing that he is his own god and satan was still a metephor but began to believe in deja vu, souls, past and present lives etc,.. . During mechanical animals and hollywood manson began to find common things that relates him to jesus christ such as being rejected from the rest of the world and misunderstanding him.Also, during this era manson began to define himself with the story of the fall of adam and alchemical symbols were used heavily then.On the other hand, we find the strongest backlash against religion at it's peak in the songs godeatgod and the fight song and the love song(it's the whole album actually).During the GAOG as SansAgendum mentioned that manson in this album discussed the possibility of the existance of some sort of God/Deity and that the creation of man is a reflection of his own creation.Here at this point, manson was keeping up his lovely habit of tearing/burning bibles.During the lest we forget era we find hostility towards god again at it's peak with the against all gods tour and the song personal jesus.I loved this era pretty much.During the EMDM era we will find manson emabraces the idea of christ again in the song/ album's title eat me drink me.Here in this album manson dealt with the communion as an act of cannibalism and love at it's peak and he referred to jesus here AS A MYTH not a true historical figure(it's hard really to know manson really believes that jesus existed or not he is confusing as a motherfucker). I didn't find much insult of christianity during this album because manson wasn't willing to talk about these topics and he said that the world is a victim of itself. During THEOL I didn't find any religious influence or backlash or anything except for his REALLY LOVELY habit of burning the bible during four rusted horses(I wish he could return to it again).During the born villain era no enough insult or backlash at all with few exceptions like the song Children of Cain in the line" watching monkey suicide".The most noticable things in this era is that manson sings ACSS song on every fucking concert without burning or tearing bibles ( come on manson BURN and TEAR some of them) .The second noticable thing when manson said that although he is not religious in the tradtional sense but celebrated the jewish easter and said that he is open minded.That's much of mellowness.

Anyway, I discussed this topic for two reasons or three maybe.The first is that I noticed that manson mellowed down his attack towards christianity,I'm not claiming he has converted or something like that, but no bible tearing and bashing.The second reason that I didn't find any topic about this here in the forums and the last reason that it is not a taboo to discuss and in my opinion that is very valiable discussion and better than discussing manson's dick and sexual life,althought it would be very pleasing for me.

thank you all and sorry if my post was long or if my english is bad.

Sans Agendum
04-23-2012, 06:49 PM
The Bible =/= God

That is the statement Manson makes every time he destroys one.

Whisky And Speed
04-23-2012, 06:50 PM
The Bible =/= God

That is the statement Manson makes every time he destroys one.

Hi, would you care to elaborate more cause i didn't get it or grasp the meaning beyond it?

thanks,

Golden Eel
04-23-2012, 06:51 PM
Well, an atheist person doesn't only deny the existance of gods alone,but denies the existance of spirits, ghosts, magick, tarot,etc,.. just check writings on atheism.

No, what sayyosin said is right. You can be an atheist and also believe in spirits and tarot and all that shit. In fact, I know more than a couple.

Whisky And Speed
04-23-2012, 06:54 PM
No, what sayyosin said is right. You can be an atheist and also believe in spirits and tarot and all that shit. In fact, I know more than a couple.

Maybe, BTW I have seen in my college's library a long time ago a book called spiritual atheism.When i saw it I said my goodness ??? do atheism and believing in this shit come toghther???.Maybe not all atheists are following hitchen's model of thinking.But this is called weak atheism boarding on agnotism.

thanks Mastah.

Sans Agendum
04-23-2012, 06:59 PM
Hi, would you care to elaborate more cause i didn't get it or grasp the meaning beyond it?

thanks,

Hi, burning a Bible has nothing to do with Manson's beliefs regarding spirituality and God. He is pointing out that it only holds as much power as you give to it. "Your book isn't burned. It was never written" -The Gardener

Also, Sayyosin is right and you are wrong. Atheism means you don't believe in God. Just like Theism means you DO believe in God. It has nothing to do with anything else. It's simple as that. Look it up.

Atom
04-23-2012, 07:00 PM
I've personally never met another atheist who believed in spirits and all that crap. I've also never read anything that supports beliefs in the supernatural by any atheist authors. It just seems to completely clash with the reasons why I don't believe in a deity.

Whisky And Speed
04-23-2012, 07:03 PM
Hi, burning a Bible has nothing to do with Manson's beliefs regarding spirituality and God. He is pointing out that it only holds as much power as you give to it. "Your book isn't burned. It was never written" -The Gardener

A very good point thank you.And your interpretation of the gardern's lyrics popped in my head at the same time.Maybe I'll betray my atheism and believe in telepathy.

Whisky And Speed
04-23-2012, 07:05 PM
I've personally never met another atheist who believed in spirits and all that crap. I've also never read anything that supports beliefs in the supernatural by any atheist authors. It just seems to completely clash with the reasons why I don't believe in a deity.

Hmmmmmm, your statement is very valid atom bout modern day atheism.But the jain/budhhist philosophy rejects dieites but keeps it's belief in divas and souls.Correct me if I'm wrong.

thanks,

Whisky And Speed
04-23-2012, 07:07 PM
Hi, burning a Bible has nothing to do with Manson's beliefs regarding spirituality and God.

Maybe it had something to do in the past especially in ACSS days but not now.It's a thought popped in my head.

21Faces
04-23-2012, 07:10 PM
It's really funny how if you ask certain people what Masnon believes about God and spirituality it's strikingly similar to what they themselves believe about God and spirituality.

http://www.lolriot.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Polar-Bear-Seems-Legit.jpg

Whisky And Speed
04-23-2012, 07:14 PM
It's really funny how if you ask certain people what Masnon believes about God and spirituality it's strikingly similar to what they themselves believe about God and spirituality.

http://www.lolriot.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Polar-Bear-Seems-Legit.jpg

HI, I didn't claim any knowlege about manson's exact beliefs and I will be more than happy to read my long post at the previous page.Btw, it is solved !!!!!!!!!!! he believes in giant polar bears and it's angels, the penguins.Kinda cool and unique.

Mugwump
04-23-2012, 07:44 PM
I think people read too much into things.

I think Marilyn Manson fans ESPECIALLY read too much into things. What is this topic even about?


Look outside. See that tree? The chances of it growing there on that spot, on this planet, circling this star in this galaxy among the billions of galaxies in the known universe are so incredibly small it seems to have meaning, but that meaning is only a figment of your imagination. You are drawing a bullseye around a cluster on a vast barn.

Pretty interesting read. (http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/09/11/the-texas-sharpshooter-fallacy/)

21Faces
04-23-2012, 07:55 PM
That wasn't directed at you :)

But while we're talking about it, I think Manson's position on such topics are pretty easy to see. He started his career baiting the religious right, and enjoyed playing up their own material in order to illustrate the extent of their hypocrisy. He also enjoyed making clever statements cherry-picking elements of theology and scripture and using them to promote his own positions in the tradition of far older libertines and provocateurs like De Sade.

GAOG, I think, marked the definite end of this period and began what we could call Manson's position of "art as religion." GAOG was a celebration of his influences and a statement about his own work and identity as an artist rather than a self-referential narrative like his previous works.

EMDM and THEOL are much more defined by their influences in art, literature, and film than in either theology or politics (not to say either of those subjects are completely ignored by him). For example, Eat Me Drink Me is a coalescence of the sacrament of the Eucharist, vampire mythology, and Alice in Wonderland. So while a theological image is employed, it is in the service of an external concept rather than a conceptual focus like in previous works.

In this sense, I think it's easy to see Manson's ambivalence towards Christianity not only as a codified religious system but also as general spiritual outlook. His spirituality is in art- in the virtue of artistic expression in itself far more than any spiritual image that can be gleaned from his work. He's said that before, post-GAOG. He rarely talks about spirituality or religion in a personal context. I can think only of two occasions: when he mentioned having his Tarot read by Jodorowsky, and how he will only allow Jodorowsky to give him readings because Jodorowsky is always right. And secondly in one of the more recent interviews when he talks about believing deeply in synchronicity. His fixation on the number 15 also suggests an interest in numerology. These elements are all pretty far off from the strict materialist atheism embraced by many here to even the vaguest notions of Christian spirituality.

Sans Agendum
04-23-2012, 08:21 PM
That wasn't directed at you :)

But while we're talking about it, I think Manson's position on such topics are pretty easy to see. He started his career baiting the religious right, and enjoyed playing up their own material in order to illustrate the extent of their hypocrisy. He also enjoyed making clever statements cherry-picking elements of theology and scripture and using them to promote his own positions in the tradition of far older libertines and provocateurs like De Sade.

GAOG, I think, marked the definite end of this period and began what we could call Manson's position of "art as religion." GAOG was a celebration of his influences and a statement about his own work and identity as an artist rather than a self-referential narrative like his previous works.

EMDM and THEOL are much more defined by their influences in art, literature, and film than in either theology or politics (not to say either of those subjects are completely ignored by him). For example, Eat Me Drink Me is a coalescence of the sacrament of the Eucharist, vampire mythology, and Alice in Wonderland. So while a theological image is employed, it is in the service of an external concept rather than a conceptual focus like in previous works.

In this sense, I think it's easy to see Manson's ambivalence towards Christianity not only as a codified religious system but also as general spiritual outlook. His spirituality is in art- in the virtue of artistic expression in itself far more than any spiritual image that can be gleaned from his work. He's said that before, post-GAOG. He rarely talks about spirituality or religion in a personal context. I can think only of two occasions: when he mentioned having his Tarot read by Jodorowsky, and how he will only allow Jodorowsky to give him readings because Jodorowsky is always right. And secondly in one of the more recent interviews when he talks about believing deeply in synchronicity. His fixation on the number 15 also suggests an interest in numerology. These elements are all pretty far off from the strict materialist atheism embraced by many here to even the vaguest notions of Christian spirituality.

How is it that you agree with me so much but can't SAY that you agree with me? You just pretty much re-wrote everything I've ever mentioned regarding Manson's beliefs and yet, I'm pretty sure your previous statement with the polar bear and penguins was directed at me. You're a really weird guy.

ThreeEyedGod
04-23-2012, 09:13 PM
I love zombies.BTW, Jesus was the first zombie

herp derp

Whisky And Speed
04-23-2012, 09:18 PM
herp derp

What a creative input sir.

brian219
04-23-2012, 09:28 PM
Perhaps Manson is a fallen angel that inhabited Brian Warner and is trying to spread evil into the world because he's pissed and wants to speed up the apocalypse because he's tired of being immortal.

Also, unicorns do NOT exist. But they used to.

ThreeEyedGod
04-23-2012, 09:37 PM
What a creative input sir.

spank you

^_^

sayyosin
04-23-2012, 09:49 PM
Well, an atheist person doesn't only deny the existance of gods alone,but denies the existance of spirits, ghosts, magick, tarot,etc,.. just check writings on atheism.

From Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist),

"a-the-ism: a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings."

Many atheists are skeptics, meaning they deny the existence of things that have no empirical evidence. That creates a common misconception that atheism = no beliefs in the supernatural. This is false. You can be an atheist and still believe in ghosts, souls, occult, etc.

Atheism doesn't mean you believe in evolution. It doesn't mean you are a naturalist, and it doesn't mean you're skeptic about everything that doesn't have empirical evidence. It doesn't even imply why you don't believe in gods (e.g. lack of evidence). It simply means you are skeptical about the existence of gods.

Like I said,


Nothing else is attached to the word besides not believing in deities.

It's really not a hard concept to understand.

edit: Oops. I had page 7 on my tab for a while and didn't realize how irrelevant this was. My bad. :S

Fav
04-24-2012, 12:36 AM
sayyosin, I already "liked" your post but I wanted to once more applaud you for such an articulate post. It absolutely reflects what I was going to say in this discussion, but you pretty much covered it.

However, I also wanted to mention that Marilyn Manson, though he may not believe in Christianity (and if you even remotely think he does, you're a fucking idiot. He wrote the intro to Satan Speaks! by Dr. LaVey, goddamit) does hold a large amount of.... I don't want to say faith, but rather empirical understanding of magic(k) and similar spiritual concepts. He also collaborated with anti-Christian O.T.O. and has spoken openly about casting black magick curses and spells, as well as utilized occult ritual in his live performances as well as incorporated the Tarot heavily in Holy Wood.

It doesn't matter if you agree with him or not (as 21Faces brilliantly noted that fans frequently project themselves into him), but to twist his own words to fit your own personal agenda is irresponsible and quite insulating for a "so-called fan." I'm a fan of his many talents, and there are many things I agree with him on, as well as disagree.

Whisky And Speed
04-24-2012, 12:53 AM
However, I also wanted to mention that Marilyn Manson, though he may not believe in Christianity (and if you even remotely think he does, you're a fucking idiot. He wrote the intro to Satan Speaks! by Dr. LaVey, goddamit) does hold a large amount of.... I don't want to say faith, but rather empirical understanding of magic(k) and similar spiritual concepts. He also collaborated with anti-Christian O.T.O. and has spoken openly about casting black magick curses and spells, as well as utilized occult ritual in his live performances as well as incorporated the Tarot heavily in Holy Wood.



Some very interesting infos favenris and I heard about them but not that detailed.However, all of the infos above are from 1996 till 2001 and there is a small potential for some change maybe like not caring about magic practice like the old days or not envolving with the chruch of satan.Manson mentioned back in ultimate guitar's interview 2007 that anything church is just close minded enough.Therefore, he may have moved on and progressed with his thinking in a more liberal/free thinking direction and not limiting himself only to the O T O or the church of satan or the occult .

nice infos thank you,

Fav
04-24-2012, 01:04 AM
Marilyn Manson has never claimed to be, nor been, a Satanist. He simply resonated with true Satanic ideology during the creation of Antichrist Superstar. And there is no magick in Satanism, that is a term most often applied to the religion of Thelema and Manson's involvement with O.T.O. was around Holy Wood.

You're welcome for the "infos."

Mugwump
04-24-2012, 06:56 AM
I've never thought of it that way before.

Sans Agendum
04-24-2012, 07:24 AM
sayyosin, I already "liked" your post but I wanted to once more applaud you for such an articulate post. It absolutely reflects what I was going to say in this discussion, but you pretty much covered it.

However, I also wanted to mention that Marilyn Manson, though he may not believe in Christianity (and if you even remotely think he does, you're a fucking idiot. He wrote the intro to Satan Speaks! by Dr. LaVey, goddamit) does hold a large amount of.... I don't want to say faith, but rather empirical understanding of magic(k) and similar spiritual concepts. He also collaborated with anti-Christian O.T.O. and has spoken openly about casting black magick curses and spells, as well as utilized occult ritual in his live performances as well as incorporated the Tarot heavily in Holy Wood.

It doesn't matter if you agree with him or not (as 21Faces brilliantly noted that fans frequently project themselves into him), but to twist his own words to fit your own personal agenda is irresponsible and quite insulating for a "so-called fan." I'm a fan of his many talents, and there are many things I agree with him on, as well as disagree.
Where did I say Manson OR that I am 'Christian'? I said he reads and interprets the Bible and it's history on his own terms AWAY from the fundamental and religious standards presented by the organized church. I said he's never discounted or stated a dislike for Jesus or that Bible and only against the hypocrisy of the modern church. He's never said "Jesus isn't real, fuck God!" or any of that garbage. It's facts, sir. Deal with it. He takes a bit here and there from all sorts of spiritual information INCLUDING the Bible and not ALWAYS in a sarcastic and demeaning way.

Also it is my belief that his use OTO collaboration and use of rituals was for the means of EXPOSURE more than homage. "Take you down. Down from the inside."

If you think Manson HATES JESUS or HATES THE BIBLE, you're the one who's off the deep end, as he can be quoted numerous times saying that he enjoys reading the book and that he feels affinity with Christ. It's a simple fact, not my projection.

If anybody is projecting their agenda onto Manson's art it's YOU, so take your own advice, be a good little teenage 'satanist' and go use your spooky manipulation abilities to seduce another naive girl into taking pictures that you can later blackmail her with instead of posting on this board and projecting your own agenda onto Manson's art. It seems to be the only thing you're good at.

It really just goes to show how little you know about the things you're trying to discredit. Many 'Men of God' have practiced sorcery and hedonism at some point in their lives. Just look at Solomon, who asked God for wisdom and then received it through living the best and most debauched life available to one of a kingly stature. He never cursed God though and neither has Manson.

ThreeEyedGod
04-24-2012, 08:32 AM
Let's all be chill bros.

Whisky And Speed
04-24-2012, 10:16 AM
He's never said "Jesus isn't real, fuck God!" or any of that garbage. It's facts, sir. Deal with it. He takes a bit here and there from all sorts of spiritual information INCLUDING the Bible and not ALWAYS in a sarcastic and demeaning way.
.

I noticed this too and there was an interview in 1998 where he said that he takes a bit of every religion like judaism and satanism and strangely enough christianity,so I agree with you on this point .


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNZqy_NgYeI

Btw, this crucifix is kool.

However, this won't deny the fact that in 1996 he said in a concert in dead to the world tour "we will no longer be oppressed by the fascim of christianity" and he said the same thing again in MTV awards 1997 before singing the beautiful people.I guess he is more spiritual now(not through organized religion though of course like what you have mentioned above)or he just cooled down and fed up with attacking and bashing this stuff and like what he said that he stopped to be a crusader for any cause.I'll miss burning/tearning the bible though becuase he was the first artist who had the guts to do so.Sadly enough it's deicide and slayer who say fuck god and jesus not manson ): at least nowadays .

Whisky And Speed
04-24-2012, 10:23 AM
Marilyn Manson has never claimed to be, nor been, a Satanist. He simply resonated with true Satanic ideology during the creation of Antichrist Superstar. And there is no magick in Satanism, that is a term most often applied to the religion of Thelema and Manson's involvement with O.T.O. was around Holy Wood.

You're welcome for the "infos."

I think that although lavey's satanism is an atheistic one and it's view on satan that he is a metephorical symbol not a real entity,it acknowledges magick and it's practice and this is mentioned in lavey's basic satanic rules and lavey ackowledges the power of magic although he attributed it to undiscovered yet scientific reasons.I think that you mean that modern satanism does not incluse magical practices as a part of it's ritiuals.But as for anton lavey himself , he acknowledged magic and it's existance.

thank you again pal.

Fav
04-24-2012, 11:34 AM
Where did I say Manson OR that I am 'Christian'? I said he reads and interprets the Bible and it's history on his own terms AWAY from the fundamental and religious standards presented by the organized church. I said he's never discounted or stated a dislike for Jesus or that Bible and only against the hypocrisy of the modern church. He's never said "Jesus isn't real, fuck God!" or any of that garbage. It's facts, sir. Deal with it. He takes a bit here and there from all sorts of spiritual information INCLUDING the Bible and not ALWAYS in a sarcastic and demeaning way.

Also it is my belief that his use OTO collaboration and use of rituals was for the means of EXPOSURE more than homage. "Take you down. Down from the inside."

If you think Manson HATES JESUS or HATES THE BIBLE, you're the one who's off the deep end, as he can be quoted numerous times saying that he enjoys reading the book and that he feels affinity with Christ. It's a simple fact, not my projection.

If anybody is projecting their agenda onto Manson's art it's YOU, so take your own advice, be a good little teenage 'satanist' and go use your spooky manipulation abilities to seduce another naive girl into taking pictures that you can later blackmail her with instead of posting on this board and projecting your own agenda onto Manson's art. It seems to be the only thing you're good at.

It really just goes to show how little you know about the things you're trying to discredit. Many 'Men of God' have practiced sorcery and hedonism at some point in their lives. Just look at Solomon, who asked God for wisdom and then received it through living the best and most debauched life available to one of a kingly stature. He never cursed God though and neither has Manson.

You seem mad, friend. Go to Church.

Sans Agendum
04-24-2012, 11:39 AM
^I'm not the one calling people idiots for having differing opinions. Quit projecting your own anger at me. Whiskey is right also. There's plenty of ritual magic and spirituality adopted into Satanism. As you accused others of doing, you are just picking and choosing and then projecting your own beliefs onto those of others in an attempt to make your own thoughts appear to carry more value than they would if they were simply presented as the thoughts of an immature young adult. :)


"we will no longer be oppressed by the fascim of christianity" and he said the same thing again in MTV awards 1997 before singing the beautiful people.I guess he is more spiritual now(not through organized religion though of course like what you have mentioned above)or he just cooled down and fed up with attacking and bashing this stuff and like what he said that he stopped to be a crusader for any cause.I'll miss burning/tearning the bible though becuase he was the first artist who had the guts to do so.Sadly enough it's deicide and slayer who say fuck god and jesus not manson ): at least nowadays .

Exactly. He's against the organized religion of 'Christianity' but has no problem with reading into scripture and gaining his own personal benefit from such things. That's kind of what scriptures were meant for to begin with. Guidance, not a business.

ThreeEyedGod
04-24-2012, 11:39 AM
fuck jesus
fuck god
fuck buddha
fuck muhammad

I hope all religious people get cancer, die, and then find out there is no God. That would be the bees knees

Plz "like" my post if you agree, y'all.

Fav
04-24-2012, 11:42 AM
fuck jesus
fuck god
fuck buddha
fuck muhammad

I hope all religious people get cancer, die, and then find out there is no God. That would be the bees knees
I think this is the first time we've reached an agreement, though I would like to add that I hope in specific it is cancer in the asshole.

Fav
04-24-2012, 11:48 AM
You know, I talked to Jesus the other day. I knew I wasn't the only girl he was talking to. I still believed the things he said to me, that he really cared about me, but if a man loves you, shit... he gives you his number, you know? And it doesnt matter if he is about to lose his website, he wouldn't ask you for money.

Whisky And Speed
04-24-2012, 11:51 AM
fuck jesus
fuck god
fuck buddha
fuck muhammad

I hope all religious people get cancer, die, and then find out there is no God. That would be the bees knees


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZzVkFfni9M

I just wanna ask, what it feels like to get a cancer in the dick?

Whisky And Speed
04-24-2012, 11:58 AM
Exactly. He's against the organized religion of 'Christianity' but has no problem with reading into scripture and gaining his own personal benefit from such things. That's kind of what scriptures were meant for to begin with. Guidance, not a business.

Since that he was raised half episcopal and half catholic I think he asks for the saints guidance too.

Let's get serious a bit,I agree with you at this point so far my friend.However, that doesn't mean that I defend christianity or any organized shit but I find what you said in that phrase above agrees with what I put in the you tube video above.Moreover, has anybody thought about this shit?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtJImJWz35U&feature=related

:D

Whisky And Speed
04-24-2012, 12:06 PM
HW - Creator - Changing
MA - Preserver - Cheating
ACSS - Destroyer - Crushing


It's the indian trinity....simple and easy.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Trimurti_ellora.jpg/800px-Trimurti_ellora.jpg

a sinpet of the concept from wikipedia:


The Trimurti (English: ‘three forms’; Sanskrit: त्रिमूर्तिः trimūrti) is a concept in Hinduism "in which the cosmic functions of creation, maintenance, and destruction are personified by the forms of Brahmā the creator, Vishnu the maintainer or preserver, and Śhiva the destroyer or transformer,"[1][2] These three deities have been called "the Hindu triad"[3] or the "Great Trinity",[4] often addressed as "Brahma-Vishnu-Maheshwara."

That returns us again to my point, spirituality and it's connection to manson's work.I think beside the judeo-christian shit manson drives some spiritual influences from the far eastern philosopies and belief systems like hinudism( hi twiggy) and buddhism and taoism,maybe manson will be a hare knrishna devotee next year, and this influence appears in the song hey cruel world with two ideas: the creator preaserver destroyer concept and the fate concept.

Have you noticed any hindu connections here apart from hey cruel world?

ThreeEyedGod
04-24-2012, 12:10 PM
<---------------- fuck this piece of shit too.


fuck "hinduism" and having it's influence influencing Manson.

"like" if you agree.

brian219
04-24-2012, 12:19 PM
I was disappointed by the lack of eastern mysticism references, apart from the Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva mention, especially after the ba gua logo. I was also hoping for more Greek mythology after Persephone and possibly Narcissus were mentioned but was, again, disappointed. Hopefully there is still tons of more subtle things to discover.

I want to congratulate Whisky and Speed and sans agendum for being the only two posters to contribute anything of value in the last several pages of this thread. Everything else has been poorly conceived rhetoric.

Whisky And Speed
04-24-2012, 12:25 PM
<---------------- fuck this piece of shit too.


fuck "hinduism" and having it's influence influencing Manson.

"like" if you agree.

Solved, that's why manson didn't tear or burn the bhagavad gita.

Whisky And Speed
04-24-2012, 12:34 PM
I was disappointed by the lack of eastern mysticism references, apart from the Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva mention, especially after the ba gua logo. I was also hoping for more Greek mythology after Persephone and possibly Narcissus were mentioned but was, again, disappointed. Hopefully there is still tons of more subtle things to discover.

I want to congratulate Whisky and Speed and sans agendum for being the only two posters to contribute anything of value in the last several pages of this thread. Everything else has been poorly conceived rhetoric.

I wanna than you my friend for your compliment.I'm triying to be serious enough in the discussion but that doesn't mean that there will be no fun or trolling at all, it happens all the time and some of it won't hurt anybody.Moreover, I tend to have a witty spirit during the discussion to banish boredom.Like what you have said,when we will listen to the whole album we will discover tons of things like what you have sadi and i'm looking forward to Children of Cain analyses.Btw, why don't you join us and contribute to the current discussion on this matter right now?.If you are u pset for the lack of eastern mysticism at this album don't worry,manson will have some shinto influences for the next album because he loves japan or if he fullfiled his old dream of joining a budhhist order of monks(or a catholic one) we will have tons of overwhelming influences.Manson would you please recruite kerry king for your next master piece?????

Thank you again brian.

Sans Agendum
04-24-2012, 04:27 PM
I was disappointed by the lack of eastern mysticism references, apart from the Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva mention, especially after the ba gua logo. I was also hoping for more Greek mythology after Persephone and possibly Narcissus were mentioned but was, again, disappointed. Hopefully there is still tons of more subtle things to discover.

I want to congratulate Whisky and Speed and sans agendum for being the only two posters to contribute anything of value in the last several pages of this thread. Everything else has been poorly conceived rhetoric.Thanks for noticing me

http://miscellany.lolthulhu.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/swanson-eeyore.jpg

Mugwump
04-24-2012, 06:26 PM
I was disappointed by the lack of eastern mysticism references, apart from the Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva mention, especially after the ba gua logo. I was also hoping for more Greek mythology after Persephone and possibly Narcissus were mentioned but was, again, disappointed. Hopefully there is still tons of more subtle things to discover.

I want to congratulate Whisky and Speed and sans agendum for being the only two posters to contribute anything of value in the last several pages of this thread. Everything else has been poorly conceived rhetoric.

I couldn't agree more.

Eternal
04-28-2012, 09:56 AM
With each listen of the album I keep picking up different things...to me it has a Frankenstein-ish feel to it in that the protagonist is piecing something together (or being pieced together) and creating or transforming into something...

Perhaps Born Villain is MM's portrayal of his past self summoning his future self and/or his future self sending his past self those messages and some of the past album elements we hear in the songs and especially during some of the intros and outros depict some of those actual transmissions.

After all he did describe BV as perhaps the greatest concept of them all...what would be greater than the story of how the villain came to be...the story of the villain creating himself from the future.


There have been plenty of interviews where Manson has stated his belief that people are able to communicate with their past selves and that humans can send back messages to our past selves in an effort to redirect ourselves in order to become who we are meant to be. He stated in a radio interview not too long ago that Antichrist Superstar was a message sent back in time and that this album represents the source of that message. He even said "That's how we're looking at the overall concept as a band" or something to that effect. He's basically claiming he's become 'The Father' character that was spoken of in the past albums. That THIS album is actually the SOURCE of the Triptych. There is certainly a connection between this album and the Triptych. It was in one of the recent radio interviews. I'll try to find it.


EDIT:
time travel ideas.

ďI believe in dreams. I believe that every night on the planet everything that is, was and can be is dreamt. I believe that what happens in dreams is no different and no less important than what happens in the waking world. I believe that dreams are the closest thing present-day mankind has to time travel. I believe you can visit your past, present and future in dreams. I believe Iíve dreamt half of my life that hasnít happened yetÖI dreamt I was the Antichrist, and I believe it.Ē
ó Marilyn Manson, The Long Hard Road Out of Hell

VelvetAIDS
04-30-2012, 12:21 PM
"SHE and every SHE is DOOMED to be your IDEAL of her" - The Gardener.

ZOMGZ ITS COMA WHITE!

Trolololol

Sans Agendum
05-09-2012, 09:14 PM
Born Villain, The I-Ching, Time Travel


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faBd_0eyMFw

Manson15Marilyn
05-13-2012, 02:49 PM
I don't think Born Villain has a thing to do with previous albums, especially ones done more than 10 years ago. The one reference I remember was Marilyn Manson saying that he and Twiggy believe Antichrist Svperstar was a message from the future, and that they're there now. But I'd have to go check and find the exact quote to be exact.

In any event, this album having a heavy reference to the I Ching (The classic of changes)--and this album being about change and how only the villain has the chance to do so--indicates to me many connections to i ching trigrams and their meanings.


Creator, preserver, destroyer; ask which one I am

This line is a direct reference to who he says he is throughout this album, and he assumes the role of the villain here to start off the album and its theme.

Here's how:

In a recent interview (http://loudwire.com/marilyn-manson-the-villain-is-always-the-catalyst/), a few weeks ago with Loudwire, Manson described a major theme to the album:


I didnít do anything wrong. My biggest question has always been, ďPeople think my music makes people kill other people? Why arenít they worried about what the fuck Iím going to do?Ē Iíve had 36 school shooting blamings under my belt Ö and my dick under my belt, also. I didnít do it. If I knew the people personally, Iíd feel sad, but Iím not going to take it personally. What Iím going to take is the fact that life is all about change, and the villain is always the catalyst, the villain is always the person who creates something different in the story. I donít mean ďvillainĒ in the sense that people might define it as the ďbad guy,Ē Iím not saying the ďbad guy.Ē

When I say the villain, I mean in the traditional sense like in Macbeth, like in anything else. The hero doesnít do anything in any story and I didnít have to go to school to learn this, it was me being a fan of literature and film. The hero doesnít do anything different. The hero always stays the same, thereís no character arc, heís always the hero. The villain is the person who has the chance to change something. They might break the rules, but thatís the thing, sometimes if you donít fucking break the rules, youíre not going to save anything, youíre not going to change anything.

Creator = ☰ _ 乾 [qiŠn], creative, the father of the family, the head of the body, the sky, the horse. This is a strong, and creative person.

Preserver = ☷ _ 坤 [kūn], receptive, the mother of the family, the belly of the body, earth, the cow. This is a devoted and friendly person.

Destroyer = ☳ _ 震 [zhŤn], arousing, the first born son of the family, the foot of the body, thunder, the dragon. This is a person with the ambition to cause change.

brian219
05-14-2012, 01:02 PM
Wow. This forum is way out of touch.

He wanted to perform each album from the triptych in one off live performances. He made some photos with Dean Karr that recreated the vibe of Triptych era imagery. Hugh said that this album is the one fans have been waiting for. He said that he's back into a frame of mind of mind he was in back in the day. Twiggy compared this album to Mechanical Animals. NK said this album is The Father of the Triptych. Manson said that ACSS was the beginning of a spell and this album was it's completion. On Fleicher's Universe dude said it was like this album was a new beginning and recreation of the past.

And somehow you guys cannot wrap your minds around a relationship between this album and the triptych.

Have fun sticking out like philosophical sore thumbs but this album OBVIOUSLY bears a unity with those three records.

ACSS MA & HW = Analyzing the world. Creating a story.

GAOG EMDM & THEOL = Analyzing himself. Living out that story. Seriously. Coma White & Black. Rising and falling from fame. Working into Hollywood in order to destroy what he created and then destroy what he became a part of.

BV = A decoder ring that unlocks the code and message of his career.

I think that you are definitely correct in what you are saying with this. The more I listen to Born Villain the more little things pop out as similar to something Manson has said or done previously, whether it be one of the many musical parallels or the lyrical cues. This theory clicks.

Also, I find the idea of a spell that began with ACSS and ends with BV to be extremely intriguing and hoped that someone could point me to where that was said or implied.

NapalmHeart
05-18-2012, 11:55 AM
Why do I always read that the order of the triptych is HOLY WOOD > MECHANICAL ANIMALS > ANTICHRIST SUPERSTAR?

The way I understood it is that Holy Wood is the prequel to Antichrist Superstar. To me that's the way it makes the most sense. Holy Wood ends with 5 attempts to shoot a gun with only one bullet in it, but we never know if the 6th shot kills him or not. Antichrist Superstar starts with Irresponsible Hate Anthem. The Guns, God and Government tour started in that order, Count To Six and Die and then Irresponsible Hate Anthem, which also featured the 6th shot


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hP5_Yojpzsc

02:40

I remember Manson saying that before making Holy Wood he was either gonna resign or give the world the middle finger, needless to say what he decided to do.

Another thing that fits into this crushing, cheating, changing/creator, preserver, destroyer thing is "Wanna fight? Wanna fuck? Wanna die?" from Lay Down Your Goddamn Arms.

Fight = Holy Wood
Fuck = Mechanical Animals
Die = Antichrist Superstar

Just an idea.

Manson15Marilyn
05-18-2012, 01:58 PM
It takes a lot to humble yourself and admit that you're making a comeback, but that's what it has to be described as when you've gone through a period where you've not been everything you're supposed to be. Not "I'm not what I used to be", because I don't want to retrace the past, more "I'm not what I need to be." The last two records are not albums that I think represent me as well as this new record, or the previous ones to them.

-- Marilyn Manson_

Sans Agendum
05-19-2012, 05:39 PM
^I believe what he's saying is that the last two albums (EMDM and THEOL) do not relate well with the themes of his previous works, but that Born Villain does.


15 Years ago we released Antichrist Superstar. We always saw that album as a message sent back in time as a warning. That's how we're looking at it as a band. We've come to that conclusion. Born Villain acts as the source of that message. Antichrist was the message and Born Villain is the messenger.

- Marilyn Manson

+

brian219
05-19-2012, 05:52 PM
Holy moley, Sans Agendum, that quote almost makes it seem like "retracing the past" and "revisiting the past" are two different things. How weird is that?

Manson15Marilyn
05-19-2012, 06:00 PM
He doesn't say anything about themes. He's talking about how the albums represent him.

Sans Agendum
05-20-2012, 12:52 AM
^Semantics. Same difference if you ask me. Themes, persona. Whatever. There's a lot to relate the new album to the Triptych. Like I said earlier. It's like in the triptych albums, Manson created a mythology. Then in the following three albums he chronicled living out that mythology. The new album sort of bridges the gap, telling a biographical tale that takes place in both fiction and personal experience.


Holy moley, Sans Agendum, that quote almost makes it seem like "retracing the past" and "revisiting the past" are two different things. How weird is that?Pardon?

brian219
05-20-2012, 03:23 AM
Pardon?

I was being sarcastic. A quote was posted where Manson stated he wasn't interested in "retracing the past," which would be redrawing a previous work line-for-line, in effect creating the same thing again.

Then a quote was posted showing that Manson clearly had no qualms about identifying his current work as connecting to his past work, which shows that he is willing to revisit past concepts and themes.

So, of course he doesn't want to retrace his steps and remake the same album again, but that does not in any way exclude his newer work from connecting to his earlier work.

Just another angle that shows that the "retracing" quote does nothing to show Born villain is unrelated to the triptych.

Manson15Marilyn
05-22-2012, 07:37 AM
Manson created a mythology. Then in the following three albums he chronicled living out that mythology. The new album sort of bridges the gap, telling a biographical tale that takes place in both fiction and personal experience.So, what fictional story is there in Born Villain?

You could be reading far too much into just one quote. Yes, he believes you can visit other time periods in your dreams and so he believes he visited into the future and got the Antichrist Svperstar ideas that sparked the trilogy. But where are you making these connections of themes and mythology from the older albums to the new album? I thought he said it was the same as the past in the sense that he's not afraid to do anything new.

Atom
05-22-2012, 07:48 AM
I don't see how BV could tie into the triptych at all.

Manson15Marilyn
05-22-2012, 08:48 AM
Furthermore, what does


Creator, preserver, destroyer; ask which one I am

have to do with the trilogy?

The main character in HOLY WOOD (in the shadow of the valley of death) does not create anything, nor is he portrayed as a god in any way. In fact, he destroyed HOLY WOOD in order to give it to his people. But that's what the Antichrist did, as well, in Antichrist Svperstar. And what did Omega do that preserved anything. In all three stories, its about self-preservation and the mistakes made by the main characters; yet each of them at realise those mistakes and make a change by the end. Its way too broad to say its a reference to the trilogy, especially since there's no basis behind it. Manson is not so shallow.

brian219
05-22-2012, 03:38 PM
"But that is an important thing to bring up when you're looking at the three records - It's not a linear dimensional trilogy, it doesn't flow like A-B-C. Antichrist Superstar has elements that are there at the end, but then on Kinderfeld, for example... If I wanted to put the records in a particular order, Kinderfeld could be on Holy Wood and Count To Six And Die could be on Antichrist Superstar. I think it would be really interesting - and I'm sure a lot of my fans would too, because they love to really get into it - to try and sequence the records in their own order and burn a disc of how it could flow together... And I already know the order, because I've done it myself..."

The triptych songs are not limited to belonging to the beginning, middle or end. The quote above demonstrates that there IS a correct timeline, but it's not as simple as saying HW>MA>ACSS. All of the albums have songs that take place early in the story, in the middle of the story and at the end of the story. Each album merely focuses on a particular period of the story. Triptych, not trilogy. It's one work.

Born Villain, considering what Manson has said about it being his attempt at a "first album" and being "the source of the triptych," is likely most tied to the early parts of the story, most heavily emphasized on Holy Wood. Personally, I see Hey, Cruel World as being the worm's first words as it's born.

blue angel
08-26-2014, 07:52 AM
I think this album is a huge step in Manson's Long Hard Road Out Of Hell, it's asserting the long road up until writing the album of how his life as Marilyn Manson has been and he is very angry, spiteful and sad, but not willing to admit being sad. It's all in his temperment on this album in particular.
His cover song choice is highly calculated, as well.
I think that it's all fine though and needed for him to move on and do whatever comes next. It's a good closure and I also can see how the ICHING fit into all of this. I like the album as a whole and see it as a needed step forward and I think that it probably helped Manson figure out who Marilyn Manson can be from these days forward.

Shangri-LIE
08-26-2014, 05:25 PM
I see most analyes as fan fiction. What we know as The Triptych began with ACS and MA that were actually intended to be a double album originally. I consider ACS a NIN record and MA a Smashing Pumpkins record. If it weren't for the Columbine massacre, there wouldn't have been Holywood. There are a lot of interesting and legitimate parallels and symbolisms that are in the records and the art but there really is no story. It was made up as it went along. How Manson has spun it and also how we interpret it or want to augment it into something more than what it is. As for Born Villain the concept was "No Reason". It was a record independent from every other record. "Confusion is the most effective method of communication". It was there for each person to extract whatever they could out of it and either relate to it or try to connect it to something that isn't there. It's a great record, it was just Manson branching out on his own and wanting to go in a different direction. That's all it was. "A tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.".

Shock Hazard
08-27-2014, 08:41 AM
All these relases are basically 'children' of Manson's brought up by the rest of the world. begins as a question mark until its upbringing can determine its potential. Nothing wrong with some personal analysis regardless of how fictional, tht's what art is meant for.

Cringeon
08-27-2014, 08:49 AM
Part of art is connecting things even on the subconscious level. While some things may not have an obvious intent or purpose as somethings, the brain is still connecting dots and forming ideas, even if you don't see it at first. It may not be intentional but it is still there. Complementary brain waves.

Shock Hazard
08-27-2014, 01:16 PM
Right, the brain is always on autosearch for patterns, for a more comprehensive grip on our surroundings. Without this we might as well be living in trees again and walking on fours.

Elizabeth Casto
09-13-2014, 12:45 PM
he forgot redeemer.

mirthavidela
06-09-2015, 07:39 PM
Maybe...
Fuck: The golden age of grotesque
Eat: Eat me drink me
Kill: High end of low
Etc: Born Villain?