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Whisky And Speed
05-01-2012, 08:08 PM
Hi, I won't post an analysis for the whole song yet as it needs more time to reflect on, but I'll post my reflections of the verse which caught my attention the most.



So take your little black book
I see the way that you look into it

Here, I feel that manson delivers a message to the hypocrate chirstians who consider their book a sacred one blindly without really thinking about it deeply or reading it with a critical eye apart from false belief.



I see the way that you look into it

here, I recall what Manson mentioned earlier in some interviews,especially during Hollywood era, that he has a different interpretation of the bible than what the traditional Christians usually have.



And all the pages you spread,
Sweet as honey, you said
But Im choking on your bitter stories

On this verse, I have the feeling,might be wrong, that manson talks about the old tastement and it's stories .We will find the phrase "sweet as honey" in the old tastement, to be more precise it is in the psalms,psalm 119.Here in the verse the prophet David(or whomever wrote this) says about God's words:


How sweet are your words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!

commentary for this verse:


How sweet are thy words unto my taste!.... Who had a spiritual one; and could discern perverse things, and could taste how good and gracious the Lord is: and so his words were sweet unto him; the doctrines of grace, the truths of the Gospel, were delightful and pleasant to him; like unadulterated milk, desirable by him: like good wine, that goes down sweetly; like good food, that is exceeding palatable; or like honey, and even sweeter than that, as follows. And that words "may be tasted and eaten", is not only agreeable to Scripture language, Jeremiah 15:16; but to classical writers (g);

I think that manson here mocks the verse and what the prophet says as well that god's words are sweet as honey for him because he believes ,maybe he hides the fact they are irrational, while in fact they are full of violence and hatred.




But Im choking on your bitter stories

Here manson mentions that these sweet as honey words in fact cause him to choke because of their content.They are sweet as honey for David or for the blind believers whilst being bitter for the critical minds that doesn't believe every word before thinking about it in terms of logic and rationality. I remember that Manson talked a lot about the violent content in the bible in a lot of occasions and how the bible is responsible for the violence.When Manson was asked about the columbine and the violence he gave a thoughtful speech that was synced live circa 2000 about the violence in the bible(I lost the link to it) and it's role in shaping the christian and the american culture .He mentioned the same thing again when he was asked about the Italian girls who shot a nun with a firearm.Moreover, he recited verses from the bible in one of his concerts during the GGG tour to show the audience and whoever listens to him that the stories in the old testament are far more violent than any of his songs.


That was my interpretation for that verse.I welcome any ideas that would help and make the discussion much more interesting.

thanks,

1984
05-01-2012, 11:29 PM
You, sir, have a lot of time on your hands.

Necrof
05-01-2012, 11:39 PM
http://bible.cc/revelation/10-10.htm
I took the little scroll from the angel's hand and ate it. It tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it, my stomach turned sour.

Manichaeist
05-01-2012, 11:41 PM
Hi, I won't post an analysis for the whole song yet as it needs more time to reflect on, but I'll post my reflections of the verse which caught my attention the most.

That verse is quite good, and considering I'm not crazy about this song musically, your little interpretation drew my attention to the lyrics which are substantially better than most of what he's put down for this record. For what it's worth, I think your interpretation is accurate.

As far as the word play with Bridget Bardot goes, I do wonder if that's a homonym for this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardo

Jakob Synn
05-02-2012, 12:29 AM
I want to see this different interpretation of the bible that Manson was talking about during the HW era.

brian219
05-02-2012, 01:55 AM
Necrof nailed it, it's not the bible but some weird book an angel has John eat. This translation fits Manson's lyrics a bit more closely:

"And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter." Revelation 10:8-10

Sputnik
05-03-2012, 04:07 AM
Alright, I'm not sure if this has already been addressed, but I have no idea what the actual title actually means?
Any Idea? Specifically the word "cain"? Is it a biblical thing?

Anyhow, I love this song, It was one of the first ones that caught my attention :)

SysteMM
05-03-2012, 07:20 AM
Alright, I'm not sure if this has already been addressed, but I have no idea what the actual title actually means?
Any Idea? Specifically the word "cain"? Is it a biblical thing?

Anyhow, I love this song, It was one of the first ones that caught my attention :)


Cain is the son of Adam & Eve, and the brother of Abel. Cain slays Abel, so my interpretation of the title was to do with outcry over youth becoming more and more violent..not looking at the parents who raised them. (What values would your father Cain, who slew his own brother instill in you?)


Bible excerpt:
(Source: Wiki)
Then the Lord said to Cain, "Where is your brother Abel?"
"I know not," he replied. "Am I my brother's keeper?"
10Then He said, "What have you done? Your brother's blood cries out to Me from the ground! 11So now you are cursed [with alienation][36] from the ground that opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood you have shed. 12If you work the land, it will never again give you its yield. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth."
13But Cain answered the Lord, "My punishment[37] is too great to bear! 14Since You are banishing me today from the soil, and I must hide myself from Your presence and become a restless wanderer on the earth, whoever finds me will kill me."
15Then the Lord replied to him, "Therefore,[38] whosoever slayeth Cain vengeance will suffer vengeance seven times over. "[39] And the Lord set a Mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. 16Then Cain went out from the Lord's presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden.

Sputnik
05-03-2012, 07:55 AM
Thank you for clearing that up, It makes more sense now. :)

NapalmHeart
05-03-2012, 08:52 AM
It's interesting that the lyrics on bornvillain.com say "5 or 500 years ago", when he actually sings "5 or 500 million years ago".

A Better Messiah
05-04-2012, 06:02 AM
Cain=the son of Adam.

Hmm...

S.D.
05-04-2012, 07:22 AM
Before I address the song directly:-


I want to see this different interpretation of the bible that Manson was talking about during the HW era.


"The only thing that I dislike about religion is the way people use it to hurt other people. I don't have a problem with the idea of God or what's in The Bible. I just don't think anyone can own a copyright on it, because it's something you should interpret for yourself.
learned to find really basic psychological symbolisms in The Bible and appreciate it in a nonreligious way and realize that I can find spirituality and find God in what I create, and I don't need to find it in The Bible. It's kind of absurd when you think about it in the end. It's not absurd for people to want to believe in God, but it's absurd to put all of your beliefs into a bunch of paper."
Marilyn Manson - [I]Metroactive, 2001 (http://www.providermodule.com/media/?v=i/2001/metroactive)


Alright, I'm not sure if this has already been addressed, but I have no idea what the actual title actually means?
Any Idea? Specifically the word "cain"? Is it a biblical thing?


Cain is the son of Adam & Eve, and the brother of Abel. Cain slays Abel, so my interpretation of the title was to do with outcry over youth becoming more and more violent..not looking at the parents who raised them.
I think it's more esoterically linked to the soul than that. It's not a sociological commentary, it's more tied in with human nature.

Look very carefully at the ordering of Born Villain's track-listing. The centre of the album, and the point where Manson claims 'Part 2' begins with Children Of Cain. What precedes the song? The Gardener, then The Flowers Of Evil...
If these songs are about Manson personally, but are also meant to create pictures in the mind of the listener ["This is my, beautiful show..."], then I would ascertain that The Gardener starts to depict a god-like presence. After all, god was surely the first 'gardener', or a 'creator, preserver, destroyer' - "Among no one". The center of the universe had no edges, then god decided to create the earth, a world made in seven days. Incidentally, there are seven songs prior to Children Of Cain, with the aforementioned commentary about it being Manson's "beautiful show". The Garden Of Eden was created, then came the first man, and from his rib, woman. Manson spoke about both the Universe, and Adam & Eve during Fleischer's Universe, arguably the first Born Villain interview piece, despite its frivolous nature.


319
[click for full-size]

Manson's Les Fleurs Du Mals - The Flowers Of Evil. Perhaps we have the first man and woman in The Garden here. After their fall from favour, there are the children of Adam & Eve, Cain & Abel. Eve was the first sinner (and by very nature of her sin, the Forbidden Fruit, the first 'Sineater'), and Cain was the first murderer having slain Abel. Temptation leads to evil, and it's often claimed theologically that murder is the first act of evil, so calling humanity 'Children Of Cain' Manson is discussing where the seed of evil has proliferated down through the age of man. Tracks six, seven, and eight on Born Villain follow this cycle chronologically.
His comments on the 'Christ Consciousness' and The Golden Ratio could easily be a negation of literal Biblical content in opposition to mathematics and science. It's like Cruci-Fiction In Space, using "Watching monkey suicide" as a reference to Evolution Theory, and how that conflicts with The Bible's 'god band-aid' approach; "Sunday AIDS and Church wine wash it away".

All-in-all, I think the song is a study of human nature, the concept of evil, and where we develop our morals. Perhaps that is why Manson chose to feature Born Villain [song] at the end of the album. The process beforehand is a saga of metaphorical encounters - using Manson's more recent favoured mode of expression; the relationship - to observe the much wider notion of the psyche, our wants and needs, the ego, and how we are born...
And then, what closes the album? Breaking The Same Old Ground; still eating sin overneath the ground of The Garden Of Eden, still making the same errors, because we are human.


"This is where it starts, this is where it will end"


It's interesting that the lyrics on bornvillain.com say "5 or 500 years ago", when he actually sings "5 or 500 million years ago".
Yes, I remember thinking this when comparing what is on bornvillain.com to the album itself. It could be a simple error, there's one or two on all of Manson's booklet releases, I guess this is similar.

HOWEVER..., I need to brush up on Sons Of God, unless anyone well-versed in theology cares to help. The giants who walked the earth prior to The Flood were huge in stature in the Hebrew Bible, and so Manson's lyrics might reflect that; "We were 15 foot high". It's a nice little reference to the number 15 as well of course, but not as typically Manson-centric as usual. The ambiguity in time-scales of different Bible translations might also relate this to the "500 million years" line.

Whisky And Speed
05-04-2012, 07:35 AM
WOW, you nearly did a full analysis for the whole song.

Thanks S.D.

I feel that the lyric :


Don't assume that I'm always with you
It's just where my mortal body happens to be

Is about Christ not Manson himself,any thoughts about this?

Gloominatus
05-04-2012, 12:18 PM
Interesting read, S.D. I stayed up last night listening to this song a few times to get a better sense of the lyrics. I like that they're more abstract and open to interpretation, as are a lot of the lyrics on this particular album. The references to the Christ consciousness and Golden Ratio definitely relate back to Manson's interest in the occult and mysticism, and his more arcane take on Christianity. And I agree, the lyric about being 15 ft is very possibly a nod to the pre-Flood giants of mythology. (I believe Boyd Rice has written a bit about that, so it wouldn't surprise me if Manson was interested in this idea). To me the song sounds like Manson addressing a person or persons who believe they are spiritually pure, and insinuating that though he may be tainted in their eyes, he is more honest about human nature and therefore more pure in his approach because he is spiritually free and unconstrained by the hypocrisy of organized religion. Not really new lyrical ground for Manson, but it fits with the concept on the album of Manson as villain and being reborn into sin, plus it furthers Manson's weird obsession with punking people by slipping random AIDS references into things.

As for "Don't assume I'm always with you/it's just where my mortal body happens to be" . . . I love this line. It could mean a lot of different things, since the song works on several levels. For me it comes back to the idea of being spiritually free, of how being physically present doesn't necessarily mean anything. Since there probably is a level of the song that is about a relationship, it's a very interesting way of telling someone they don't own you. Considering all the elements on the album about vanity and being alone, if fits nicely with the progression of the record's themes.

The Overman
05-04-2012, 01:09 PM
It's also interesting to note that Abel is portrayed as a shepherd in the Bible, where Cain is represented as a gardener. From Genesis 4:3:


Now Abel became a shepherd of a flock, but Cain cultivated the land.

AssetReign
05-04-2012, 01:21 PM
King James version: And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Both necessary to maintain life in Biblical times (even mythical Biblical times), but certainly "tiller of the ground" can be loosely translated as "gardener."

Whisky And Speed
05-05-2012, 02:55 PM
Necrof nailed it, it's not the bible but some weird book an angel has John eat. This translation fits Manson's lyrics a bit more closely:

"And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter." Revelation 10:8-10

Maybe what you have said is an analysis to this verse.



And all the pages you spread,
‘Sweet as honey,’ you said
But I’m choking on your bitter stories


Maybe Manson here says this line as if he the writer of the revelation ,he talks here as if he is John speaking to the angel.I'm not sure though.

brian219
05-05-2012, 08:47 PM
Maybe Manson here says this line as if he the writer of the revelation ,he talks here as if he is John speaking to the angel.I'm not sure though.

I think you're right that he must be using John's point of view. What baffles me is why he would do that.

Whisky And Speed
05-05-2012, 08:53 PM
What baffles me is why he would do that.

Yes, why?

The Empirical Guy
05-05-2012, 09:14 PM
There's some cool thoughts on the lyrical content of the song here. I did mention a musical parallel for this in the review thread but thought I'd stick the video in here for a comparison... tell me you can't hear a similarity here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxF6KCmbVd0

A Better Messiah
05-06-2012, 07:32 AM
Also, and I'm sure that I'm pointing out the obvious here, but "Children Of Cain" could almost represent "God's" view of the human race as told by a human. He is looking at humanity with disdain for their hypocrisy and what they have done in his name, using Manson (or whatever reflection of himself he may be speaking through) as his voice. Clearly the point of view is written from a human, almost an Adam Kadmon figure depicting the path of the rebellion which they have led, using first person statements such as "Us children of Cain." It's as if it is one soul looking inward at his own figure (as well as those around him, collectively) from an external viewpoint. "Don't assume that I'm always with you/It's just where my mortal body happens to be." Manson is a man with divine knowledge, (basing this off of "mortal body") an oracle , if you will. This also parallels the Macbeth influence, as well as that with the album as a message from the future sent to the Marilyn Manson of 1996.

Related: The song "The Gardener" is about a relationship in which you attempt to raise somebody to lean towards your direction, but you cannot make them who you are. "This is your world in which we will grow/ And we will grow to hate you." I think that song could very much be from a literal Godhead's (not the band,silly!!) point of view, rather than that of some intermediary figure.

S.D.
05-08-2012, 07:44 AM
Musically, Children Of Cain reminds me of Seven Years In Tibet by David Bowie.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiURDmfMTJQ

brian219
05-08-2012, 09:25 AM
Children of Cain isn't a term that originated with Manson. It commonly refers to either the lineage from Cain to Tubal-Cain (who is a major symbolic figure in Freemasonry) or any person or group who adopts a stance of rebellion against what is commonly perceived as good.

The term "Sons of God" is very mysterious and often debated. One common explanation is that it refers to descendants of Seth (who served as a replacement for the slain Abel) and that "daughters of men" refers to Cains descendants. Since the Sons of God married the daughters of men it could be said that both lineages were mixed into one tangled line and escaped the destruction of the flood. If as I suspect "the first flower after the flood" refers to first "flower of evil" to pop up from Noah's descendants, it may refer to the pseudo-historical figure of Nimrod, whose name some scholars claim means "the rebel," although some identify him with Ninus or even Hammurabi.

Back to "Children of Cain," it would seem Manson is mostly calling upon Baudelaire's poem "Abel et Can" from Fleurs du mal. The original French uses alternating couplets addressing the descendant of Abel and the descendants of Cain:


Ah! race d'Abel, ta charogne
Engraissera le sol fumant!

Race de Can, ta besogne
N'est pas faite suffisamment;

Race d'Abel, voici ta honte:
Le fer est vaincu par l'pieu!

Race de Can, au ciel monte,
Et sur la terre jette Dieu!

Most English translations render Race de Cain as "Race of Cain" or "Tribe of Cain," but Children of Cain is perfectly synonymous, especially in the context of the biblical context, where "sons" and "daughters" are used in much the same way to indicate simply "descendants." Notable is that in the final couplet Baudelaire instructs the descendants of Cain to "ascend to heaven, And cast God down upon the earth" (Aggeler's translation).

It's a very common motif, especially in European literature. Even U2 got in on the act on In God's Country backon their 1987 album The Joshua Tree:


Naked flame
She stands with a naked flame
I stand with the sons of Cain
Burned by the fire of love

Also, of note is that Cain was believed by Judeo-Christianity to be the first murdrer, so it's possible that murderers on this album is also a reference to the children of Cain.

Born Villain almost seems like a call to arms to all those who have a gripe with the Christian God to help help the Cain figure put a diamond bullet into his 404 error face and cast him down to the earth, breaking the same ground that Lucifer did when he fell. A 404 error is when you get a "page does not exist" message and therefore refers "to a god that doesn't exist" (or at least that his face is nonexistent). I'll go ahead and cite "we're on a bullet and we're heading straight into god," in case that wasn't picked up on already.

Gloominatus
05-09-2012, 10:42 AM
That verse is quite good, and considering I'm not crazy about this song musically, your little interpretation drew my attention to the lyrics which are substantially better than most of what he's put down for this record. For what it's worth, I think your interpretation is accurate.

As far as the word play with Bridget Bardot goes, I do wonder if that's a homonym for this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardo

I thought the same thing when listening to the line referencing Bridget Bardot. Yes, it's the Bardo Thodol, and he's referring to be being trapped in a transitory state. Goes well with the other Eastern spirituality references on the record, like the trigrams.

Manson15Marilyn
05-13-2012, 03:08 PM
I did note some vague biblical references. And this song does seem to be less internal than most songs on the album, and more like Hey, Cruel World...

I can see how its a song about our society.

johncraze
06-18-2012, 09:59 PM
Digged all the biblical references you guys posted, really interesting read.

I was reading Alice Through the Looking Glass ( And what she found there), and in Chapter VII: "It's My Own Invention". The clumsy White Knight who always falls upon his head from his horse over and over again says to Alice:

"What does it matter where my body happens to be?,My mind goes on working all the same. In fact, the more head downwards I am, the more I keep inventing new things"

This phrase automatically reminded me of the " Don't assume I'm always with you, it is just where my mortal body happens to be" lyric. And in consideration Manson is a deep Alice in Wonderland, and Lewis Carroll fan, such connection doesn't seem farfetched to me.

So perhaps the mentioned lyric is a reafirmation of the statements he has made that Born Villain is entirely about him, and about no one else. In the sense of how free his essence can be, wondering everywhere to new places and ideas, uncharted, unlimited, the source of endless creative energy that has been guiding through this new creation. Making this era different to the two before it, because it marks the presence of a fierce and unbound Manson.

Adonai
06-27-2012, 09:51 PM
On this verse, I have the feeling,might be wrong, that manson talks about the old tastement and it's stories .We will find the phrase "sweet as honey" in the old tastement, to be more precise it is in the psalms,psalm 119.Here in the verse the prophet David(or whomever wrote this) says about God's words:

I just noticed:

"So take your little black book
I see the way that you look in to it
I’ll eat it and I’ll cut my tongue
And all the pages you spread,
Sweet as honey you said
But I’m choking on your bitter stories"

is practically ripped directly from Bible Revelations Chapter 10: Versus 9-10. I noticed it while I was working and thought I would share. It doesn't appear that anyone has mentioned it yet, I only skimmed this thread though so someone might have already pointed it out. ANYWAYS, check it out:

10:8-9 "And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go [and] take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth." "And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take [it], and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey."

(John is told to eat the little book, and when he does, it becomes sweet in his mouth (Ps. 119:103; Jeremiah 15:16) but bitter in his belly. The act of eating represents the understanding and appropriation of prophetic revelation. The message is "sweet" because at last the kingdoms promises are about to be fulfilled. It is bitter because it can only be accomplished through more judgment and tribulation.

In Ezekiel chapters 2 & 3, we see that physical Israel refused the New Testament and its teaching of Jesus. This sweetness is the beautiful message received, but the bitterness is the disappointment when they refuse the message. This bitterness is the terrible judgment, as well.)


10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

The act of eating the book (scroll) symbolizes the absorbing and assimilating God's Holy Word.

When John consumed the book, the words that were written were sweet as honey. (very pleasing)

But for those who would be tormented in hell for the rest of eternity which was about to happen, John then tasted the bitterness as He knew God was about to take back the earth which was rightfully His, and be exalted, honored and glorified as He deserved. John realized the terrible punishment that was about to be given to unrepentant unbelievers and that caused the sweet taste to turn to bitterness.

NapalmHeart
06-28-2012, 04:53 PM
C. O. CAIN

me_andre
08-20-2012, 08:20 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAm-kbzT7xw

rusty shackleford
09-28-2012, 01:18 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAm-kbzT7xw
Wow! I came here to post this and it was the last comment. "Christ Consciousness manifest to the golden ration 5 or 500 million years ago. We were 15 foot high" Those lyrics strongly resonate with this documentary about the different levels of consciousness.
To all who haven't seen this it is an amazing watch. It's certainly worth your time.

Bryson18
09-29-2012, 09:22 PM
Alright, I'm not sure if this has already been addressed, but I have no idea what the actual title actually means?
Any Idea? Specifically the word "cain"? Is it a biblical thing?

Anyhow, I love this song, It was one of the first ones that caught my attention :)

Yes, Cain did kill Able, but the statement "Children of Cain" is different. It is talking about his decedents. I believe Judas (The man who betrayed Jesus and then hung himself) was in the bloodline.

sayyosin
09-29-2012, 09:46 PM
I believe Judas (The man who betrayed Jesus and then hung himself) was in the bloodline.

How do you know that?

Bryson18
09-29-2012, 10:27 PM
Wow! I came here to post this and it was the last comment. "Christ Consciousness manifest to the golden ration 5 or 500 million years ago. We were 15 foot high" Those lyrics strongly resonate with this documentary about the different levels of consciousness.
To all who haven't seen this it is an amazing watch. It's certainly worth your time.

To all who haven't seen this it is an amazing watch. It's certainly worth your time.[/QUOTE]

This is a great video. It's hard to grasp, but is worth watching! I'm pretty sure Manson believes in this kind of stuff. He is WAY too smart to say "we came from nothing"


How do you know that?

Private message me about it. :)

Manson15Marilyn
10-05-2012, 11:45 AM
...and I expected to find something profound in this thread. You know, the whole thing about an analogy is not to take it so literally.

I've been coming to think more that this song has nothing to do about religion or society. It seems more like a song about personal reflection, much like many of the songs on the album. And, of course, the addressing of another person doesn't make it about any particular person or group; as Manson has made it clear this album is about no one. Should've thought more about that in the first place... lol

Whisky And Speed
10-05-2012, 11:59 AM
...and I expected to find something profound in this thread. You know, the whole thing about an analogy is not to take it so literally.

I've been coming to think more that this song has nothing to do about religion or society. It seems more like a song about personal reflection, much like many of the songs on the album. And, of course, the addressing of another person doesn't make it about any particular person or group; as Manson has made it clear this album is about no one. Should've thought more about that in the first place... lol

Come on! Manson himself talked about the song in one of his late interviews and he said that it was about religious matters and that he was influenced by a Christmas tree he saw to write about religion in mind and the outcome was this song. I can't remember exactly where the interview was but I think it was published in L.A times if I remember correctly.

The Wax Gentleman
10-05-2012, 01:26 PM
“How sweet are your words to my taste, sweeter than honey to my mouth!”
-Psalm 119:103

I just thought it's interesting that 1+1+9+1+0+3 is 15.

Manson15Marilyn
10-05-2012, 07:27 PM
I would, actually, like to see that interview...

Can anyone provide that?

Whisky And Speed
10-06-2012, 06:24 AM
I would, actually, like to see that interview...

Can anyone provide that?

Well, it was a newspapers interview not a T.V one , I'll try and search for you.

Manson15Marilyn
10-06-2012, 10:15 AM
LA Times, huh? What's the general time of the interview. Maybe a date?

The Empirical Guy
12-16-2012, 03:03 AM
We all know that Manson and Twiggy are big fans of LOST, and this is going to discuss some links between the song and the show, so any one that hasn't seen it yet and doesn't want spoilers, best keep out.

The opening lines for the song "Sacrifice won't suffice/ resurrection needs your death/ to happen twice". When John Locke went down in to the well to turn the wheel and spoke with the Man In Black (in the form of Christian Shephard), he was told upon questioning his need to die "That's why it's called sacrifice". Indeed, he then went on to die and his form was resurrected before being killed again. During this time, his body was walking around but was under the control of another's consciousness - "Don't assume that I'm always with you/ it's just where my mortal body happens to be".

Cringeon
12-16-2012, 08:14 AM
Now I'm convinced! It's all about LOST lol

Mexxecutioner
12-16-2012, 09:30 AM
Can anyone explain what Manson means with "Sunday AIDS and church wine wash it away" ? Thank you!

TongueTwistingStorm
12-16-2012, 10:30 AM
I had always understood the children of Cain to be a lineage that was considered to be cursed and evil. Sin eaters were only able to absolve the sins of the dead... for the living, only God is able to do that, through "Sunday AIDS and church wine".

The other thing that popped into my head when hearing this for the first time was the reference to previously being "15 foot tall". One interpretation of nephilim has them being the offspring of Cain's progeny and fallen angels. Their descendents would, in this day and age, have evolved down to a normal size.

I'm on a cell phone, so can't go into as much detail as I'd like, but that's my brief interpretation.

HG131
04-02-2013, 10:28 AM
Reading through http://www.nachtkabarett.com/CelebritarianCorporation/DoubleCross lead me to find this, which for obvious reasons (read: the song didn't exist when they wrote all of this), couldn't be seen as something more important.

http://www.nachtkabarett.com/ihvh/img/NKAlchemicalCrossofLorraine.jpg http://www.nachtkabarett.com/ihvh/img/NKAlchemicalCrossofLorraineRevealed.jpg


"By taking the first letter at the end of each six points of the cross in a symmetrical zigzag pattern (further adding to the inherent equilibrium present in the cross), we can spell the word H-O-S-A-N-I, which is the Latin equivalent of the Hebrew word 'Hosanna', or "Praise be to", a phrase used in Catholic mass. The second hidden word mirrors the first, originating at the bottom, and working up, as the direct balance to the first word. By traversing in this manner, we spell the word I-A-N-O-S-H, the Latin equivalent of "Enoch". Enoch is believed to have taught writing to mankind, just as Hermes had.

As by no means of coincidence, a third word is spelt out by setting our point of origin at the 'A' in 'Arena', of the lower bar. Once again, following the zigzag principle, another word of significant importance is created. It should be mentioned that this traversed path creates an inherent M, which gives it all the more significance to Marilyn Manson. This third and final word created is A-S-I-O-N. Sion is an important word when considering The Knights Templar and their embodiment of the Cross of Lorraine, the 'a' in front of it serves as a patronym, something which indicates the line or descent of the individual in question. Asion simply means "Son of Sion".

All this taken into account, we can produce a hidden message from our three newly discovered words, "Praise be to Enoch, son of Sion."

Those who have read Genesis of the Old Testament will recognize that this message is in itself another riddle, as Enoch is not actually the son of anyone named Sion. Though the message reads "Praise be to Enoch, son of Sion", we must keep in mind that the word 'Sion' is an alternate spelling of Zion , and used for the purpose of identifying his heritage to the Jewish people. However, knowledge of the Bible dictates that Enoch is in reality, the son of Cain, the second most damned and synonymously evil individual of the Old Testament, next to Lucifer.

This holds extreme importance, as according to Hermetic lore, it is thought that Cain, who was responsible for the first murder, went off to spawn legions of damned creatures with Lilith, Adam's first wife. The two blighted ones created an entire line of despised beasts.

Thus it could be said that Cain, or his children, were heavily responsible for bringing Hermeticism, alchemy, and magick to the realm of men, as it were the 'fallen ones' who gave all antediluvian (pre-flood) knowledge to Hermes, who then passed it to the rest of mankind. So, "Praise be to Enoch, son of Sion", may not be so much as a sign of respect, but one of prayer, extending the offer of redemption to a child of a tainted blood line. This concept of redemption, and alchemical rebirth is not unfamiliar to Marilyn Manson, and in terms of The Cross of Lorraine, it offers another checked balance - the offer of redemption for the unredeemable."

Pretty much no credit to me, other than getting bored and reading the right article.

kleiner352
04-02-2013, 03:49 PM
We all know that Manson and Twiggy are big fans of LOST, and this is going to discuss some links between the song and the show, so any one that hasn't seen it yet and doesn't want spoilers, best keep out.

The opening lines for the song "Sacrifice won't suffice/ resurrection needs your death/ to happen twice". When John Locke went down in to the well to turn the wheel and spoke with the Man In Black (in the form of Christian Shephard), he was told upon questioning his need to die "That's why it's called sacrifice". Indeed, he then went on to die and his form was resurrected before being killed again. During this time, his body was walking around but was under the control of another's consciousness - "Don't assume that I'm always with you/ it's just where my mortal body happens to be".

This is actually kinda believable to me and would make sense, I mean MM even said Locke was his favorite character (and he's mine as well).

kleiner352
04-02-2013, 04:03 PM
Before I address the song directly:-


"The only thing that I dislike about religion is the way people use it to hurt other people. I don't have a problem with the idea of God or what's in The Bible. I just don't think anyone can own a copyright on it, because it's something you should interpret for yourself.

learned to find really basic psychological symbolisms in The Bible and appreciate it in a nonreligious way and realize that I can find spirituality and find God in what I create, and I don't need to find it in The Bible. It's kind of absurd when you think about it in the end. It's not absurd for people to want to believe in God, but it's absurd to put all of your beliefs into a bunch of paper."
Marilyn Manson - [I]Metroactive, 2001 (http://www.providermodule.com/media/?v=i/2001/metroactive)




I think it's more esoterically linked to the soul than that. It's not a sociological commentary, it's more tied in with human nature.

Look very carefully at the ordering of Born Villain's track-listing. The centre of the album, and the point where Manson claims 'Part 2' begins with Children Of Cain. What precedes the song? The Gardener, then The Flowers Of Evil...
If these songs are about Manson personally, but are also meant to create pictures in the mind of the listener ["This is my, beautiful show..."], then I would ascertain that The Gardener starts to depict a god-like presence. After all, god was surely the first 'gardener', or a 'creator, preserver, destroyer' - "Among no one". The center of the universe had no edges, then god decided to create the earth, a world made in seven days. Incidentally, there are seven songs prior to Children Of Cain, with the aforementioned commentary about it being Manson's "beautiful show". The Garden Of Eden was created, then came the first man, and from his rib, woman. Manson spoke about both the Universe, and Adam & Eve during Fleischer's Universe, arguably the first Born Villain interview piece, despite its frivolous nature.


319
[click for full-size]

Manson's Les Fleurs Du Mals - The Flowers Of Evil. Perhaps we have the first man and woman in The Garden here. After their fall from favour, there are the children of Adam & Eve, Cain & Abel. Eve was the first sinner (and by very nature of her sin, the Forbidden Fruit, the first 'Sineater'), and Cain was the first murderer having slain Abel. Temptation leads to evil, and it's often claimed theologically that murder is the first act of evil, so calling humanity 'Children Of Cain' Manson is discussing where the seed of evil has proliferated down through the age of man. Tracks six, seven, and eight on Born Villain follow this cycle chronologically.
His comments on the 'Christ Consciousness' and The Golden Ratio could easily be a negation of literal Biblical content in opposition to mathematics and science. It's like Cruci-Fiction In Space, using "Watching monkey suicide" as a reference to Evolution Theory, and how that conflicts with The Bible's 'god band-aid' approach; "Sunday AIDS and Church wine wash it away".

All-in-all, I think the song is a study of human nature, the concept of evil, and where we develop our morals. Perhaps that is why Manson chose to feature Born Villain [song] at the end of the album. The process beforehand is a saga of metaphorical encounters - using Manson's more recent favoured mode of expression; the relationship - to observe the much wider notion of the psyche, our wants and needs, the ego, and how we are born...
And then, what closes the album? Breaking The Same Old Ground; still eating sin overneath the ground of The Garden Of Eden, still making the same errors, because we are human.


"This is where it starts, this is where it will end"


Yes, I remember thinking this when comparing what is on bornvillain.com to the album itself. It could be a simple error, there's one or two on all of Manson's booklet releases, I guess this is similar.

HOWEVER..., I need to brush up on Sons Of God, unless anyone well-versed in theology cares to help. The giants who walked the earth prior to The Flood were huge in stature in the Hebrew Bible, and so Manson's lyrics might reflect that; "We were 15 foot high". It's a nice little reference to the number 15 as well of course, but not as typically Manson-centric as usual. The ambiguity in time-scales of different Bible translations might also relate this to the "500 million years" line.

So I feel like this could really push the idea that Born Villain's concept is in at least part about mankind and sin, and if you ask me Murderers... suddenly fits in perfectly with the Biblical End of Days. The idea that mankind will become more and more hedonistic and find sin and evil attractive, hence "Murderers are getting prettier every day."

Also the title of Born Villain would fit in with the concept of man being born with sin in their hearts due to Original Sin; we're born with evil in our hearts so we are born the villains, so to speak.

The theme of becoming one's own god was something most obviously featured on ACSS and is something of a running theme for MM, and if anything I think Born Villain is about the faults in that way of thinking. If a lot of it deals with man's inherent nature for evil and ultimately being book-ended in sin, with the Garden of Eden and the End of Days, then I think it's not too far off to connect the "becoming your own god" into parts of the album. The garden trying to outgrow the gardener, two flowers and one casting a shadow over the other. Overneath features two references to stories involving sons trying to take their fathers places, and ultimately when you then think about it it fits in with the idea of mankind trying to take over their "father's" place of God. In this case it ultimately is a failure and just furthers the idea of man being born the villain instead of the hero.

Shangri-LIE
07-13-2013, 07:50 AM
http://i48.servimg.com/u/f48/17/18/74/93/mark_o10.png


http://www.nachtkabarett.com/ihvh/img/hwinfinite.jpg

"Sacrifice won't suffice. Resurrection needs your death to happen twice";

Saturn, with its huge rings, seven of them, was known in Talmudic Hebrew literature as a representation of the Shabbat (Sabbath). It earned this reputation because of its prolonged orbit around the Sun. The planetary body Saturn, in the Hebrew language called Shabbatai—y)tb#$—comes from the three-letter Hebrew word Shabbat—tb#$. Shabbat, of course, refers to the seventh day of the week in Jewish reckoning,Shabbatai was the seventh planetary body known to the ancient Jews. Seven is a special number of rest and is addressed in Jewish numerology. In the Tanakh (Bible), the heavenly body Saturn is referred to by the prophet Amos (5:26). Apparently the Babylonians named a god after Saturn and called it Chiun. Because this Babylonian god of stone was embraced by some of the Jews of the day, the One true God of their Fathers visited His anger upon them.

It's a rule of numbers. A ritual. S.D. has brought it up and I have even pointed it out in "Faith in AIDS' as well as the "We eat our Young" threads. It's important to note that the 528 hz is the single most powerful “magic window frequency” employed by the biblical “Horites” (where the surname “Horowitz” originated) ancestry to perform black magic sorcery since the days of Cain. Follow the bloodline trail in Genesis and throughout the entire Pentateuch and this becomes readily apparent. This is the progeny of Esau (who is Edom) as recorded in Genesis Chapter 36. The Horites made a strategic alliance with the Demons of antiquity, according to the Holy Bible. They have used Enochian Magic since it was first revealed to Enoch, the SON OF CAIN (Genesis 4:17) in order to consult and direct the demonic entities into this “earth plane” to further their Luciferian agenda.

Not to make a "15" reference. I want to point out 528, (Saturn's vibration) does equate to 15, just for the sake of satiating our obsession with numerical patterns throughout Marilyn Manson's career. With that aside, I do own a copy of "The Keys of Enoch" as well as other holy book, occultic literature, have always been into astrology, numerology, and sorcery. It's a big reason why I have become the type of Marilyn Manson fan that I am today. He's in the past described The Antichrist Superstar as being a collective consciousness that we all possess, and I think the same is true with the mindset of The Born Villain. We have a vault of fan fictions, analyses, symbols, parallels etc so much so that I have jested that we should have our own sections for "The word according to (whoever)". lol. Even when it comes to Manson's artistic appropriation of films and music in our cultures, I don't need to mention his adoration for and in many ways how he has paid homage to Stanley Kubric. That or how "2001: A Space Odyssey" as a visual and alchemical initiation into the ongoing transformation and evolutionary ascent of man to a so-called Star Child destiny fits into the Triptych as well as his other work such as Lolita being an inspiration for "Eat Me Drink Me". This is an image from "2001:A Space Odyssey"



It is how a Saturn stationed at Earth's celestial north and connected by a vast auroral Birkeland current might have looked to the ancients during The Golden Age;







http://saturndeathcult.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Kubrick-Saturn.jpg

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxidjkt6fr1qcwp7zo1_400.jpg

Again we have the 96/69 reference that equates to 15 as well as the presence and engraved markings placed upon Manson as an indication of a personal apocalypse/Holy War in America much like in "2001 - A Space Odyssey". A transformation and ending of a world where we are alienated by false religions. We're representatives of the Children of Lucifer. The child stars. The flowers of Evil. "The things and shapes to come".

Shangri-LIE
07-13-2013, 09:20 AM
Still pt.1 (pt.2 to come later)

Which brings me to The Cain Black Saiten ritual;


"I call forth the infernal shadows
which nourish my body and soul;
I invoke the circle which
empowers my form of being,
From the North, I invoke the
force of Set, being my shadow of
self (turn your head facing north
remaining in your seat)
Let the Blackened Flame
illuminate from this very Forge!
From the West, I invoke the force
of Anubis, the Opener of the Way
Let the Violent Light
of the Dead
empower my Spirit!
(turn your head west)
From the South, I invoke the
force of Thoth, whose lamp
illuminates my path
Let the Fires of Wisdom and Self-
Discover Guide my path!
(turn your head south)
From the East, I invoke Horus,
being the fire and strength of
spirit
(turn your head east)
Reveal thy essence as Azal’ucel,
the Fiery Djinn of Change and
Rebellion!
Cain , bringer of the cauldron of change and self transformation do protect my very
being of self, that I may grow
and ascend in our family born of
Witch Blood pure.
I seek the coils of Leviathan, The
Darkened Grave earth of Ahriman
and the Dream
plane of Lucifer. Allow the gates
to open before me !”
I encircle myself in the Dragon’s
coils, the Beast of my father
arises within!
I hold the Skull of Abel, being the
vessel of my Famulus!
I hold the Hammer of the Forge,
which I spark the Cunning Fire of
Becoming!
My eyes hold the desert tales of
ages forgotten, while my flesh
fades my spirit is
immortal!
I wear the crimson caul of
Vampires mother, Lilith, who
speaks with us through dreams!
I carry the serpent’s skin of
Azal’ucel, my Holy Spirit!
I am Cain, loner and Witch Soul of
the Immortal Fire!
So it is done!"


"Have the Sigil of Cain placed in front of you and within your view before the chanting, and meditate for a while upon it. Now you may Witness Great Activity, Most of the times Result on summoning demons , (servants of Cain) or even Cain himself. They would test you to see if you are worthy or not, brave enough to be responsible to take the gift of immortality or not) and the results are foremost unknown depending on your faith, strength, and wisdom , in brief, depending on you yourself. once done, next thing you’ll be absorbing the forces of darkness, and given the possession of the demonic beast of a vampire. But we are not done yet! SO IMPORTANT , NEVER DEPEND ON THE SUMMONING ITSELF. To complete the process here is the most important part, right now your current existence is along the dead, and to complete the transformation and become a newly born vampire the next part needs to be completed. place the nine nail clips in the paper, fold the paper with the nail clips inside 9 time until its folded properly and have it tied with the black string. Go outside to a dark place of sight. Dhave this paper buried, along that no body can see it and dig it out. You succeed this and you are an immortal vampire, with all what the word Vampire Means."





I have a pt.2 to this. I doubt anyone will reply before I post the second part as I have some stuff to do in the meantime. So just mull over that and share your thoughts if you do happen to post before I continue. I don't think I need to point very many more things out and to those of you who understand it. You'll will be able to connect the dots. "Don't assume that I'm always with you, it's just where my mortal body happens to be". - Happy Spirally Valentines Day

Shangri-LIE
07-13-2013, 09:20 AM
Go back a page for pt.1 of my analysis (It's a 2 part, part 1).

There is a Theme inside a Theme

Personally I feel like that Born Villain itself is a parallax view of a "body" where the arteries of other albums, their symbolism and allegories contained within are still preserved. I've read where people have tried to make a triptych out of EMDM, THEOL, and BV and I think that is because he has stuck to the same central themes and given us the evidence to examine only with different lenses and cases for each body of work. We take that as him trying to write a Triptych again, but I don't think that is entirely accurate. Back to mercury both as a chemical compound, a symbol, and a planet. I wanted to make the connection to between Saturn and Children of Cain a little more taut.

Mercury in Retrogade in the house of Saturn; (Mercury in Retrogade is Manson's "location".)

Ordinarily this trine could find it hard to resist escapism, drugs or alcohol, but I think the Sun trine Saturn at the same time will give it the whole pattern great willpower and stamina. What it might show is our will being tested. There is great structure here underpinning the Neptune shimmer though, so this trine has substance. Mercury on the chart is on Pollux the immortal, dark twin, so we will be utilizing our shadow in balancing our psyche. He will also be testing our will and do this by triggering who or what really winds us up. Do we secretly actually want to be the person we really hate. Are covering up our envy? What qualities in them are we just too afraid to express in ourselves? This Mercury Retrograde period I think will be quite beneficial in the long term, but we will have to confront our “Evil Twin” first. This will get us to revise and renovate how we build our dreams. It will enable us to find the balance with what we are willing to sacrifice for them. If we have been so obsessed with career goals in the past, but health or quality time spend with the family has suffered, these few weeks are for you. They can be used to finally find a way to balance mind, body and spirit if we do what the trine says and find time to look inward. Trines are about being more than doing. Mercury retrograde is a perfect excuse for just being then, especially if you are one of those electric types who only have to look at something electronic during Mercury Rx for it to explode."

I think that the actual story of The Born Villain, (Character), starts with "The Gardener" all the way up to the title track "Born Villain" which sounds a lot like "If I was your vampire". Back to vampire references, huh? His past three records do have confluences, but again, it isn't a Triptych. It's more of a "you keep repeating yourself in tongues" diary. Today's daily Horrorscope has been brought to you by all of yesterdays Frankenstein's. Dopplegangers, dolls, flowers, whatever it is that he has referred to us as, he has always pointed out that he is in control. He was made in America and we were made by the All American Antichrist. Toys, little bullets, victims, a garden of dead flowers, a crowded morgue of mistakes. However you look at it, what he is saying is that he has assumed the ( Saturn) father role over us. "I think parents should raise their kids better or someone like Marilyn Manson is going to" - MM 8/94

That is also why I agree that the song "Children of Cain" is so underrated, because it epitomizes the relationship between him and us. It also creates a separation. If you allow him to create you, you will want to become him. He can also chose to preserve or destroy you. The first three lyrics off of "Born Villain" - "Creator, Preserver, Destroyer". It's not that hard to follow.The record itself is very straight forward.

"When all of you're wishes are granted, many of your dreams will be destroyed"/"Marilyn Manson is a criticism of gimmickry, while itself being a gimmick". - MM

Don't pretend to be a victim, bitches. Namaste~

S.D.
08-07-2013, 01:17 AM
The giants who walked the earth prior to The Flood were huge in stature in the Hebrew Bible, and so Manson's lyrics might reflect that; "We were 15 foot high".
I've done a little more reading since writing here last, and it appears some Theologists not only believe that The Nephilim were giants, but there are also theories that Adam - the first man - was a giant of fifteen foot in height. A decrease in human size is supposedly something that happened after The Flood, prior to which man was a race of giants. This theory relates somewhat to Manson's past tense proclamation of being fifteen foot high, perhaps he is referring to Adam, father of Cain?

Compare this illustration of Adam being born from dirt with Manson's live riser:-


http://www.providermodule.com/Administrators/S.D./man_dust.png http://www.providermodule.com/Administrators/S.D./manson_rising.png

"fifteen foot high"

Obviously there are some differences, Manson's riser derives from Disposable Teens [refer here (http://www.providermodule.com/videography/images/teens/26.jpg)] where he ascends from a lake, much like the Sea Beast of Revelation 13 - "I am a revelation" - which in turn relates to the seven-headed Hydra referenced on Antichrist Superstar.
However, the parallel can be drawn given that Manson's Holy Wood persona was Adam Kadmon, and during live segments, he is not risen from water, and stands before the 'Holy Wood', or Eden, towering several 'feet' higher than man. Holy Wood also proclaims that we have a "place in the dirt", the same ground that Adam was created from. The elevation of Christ on the crucifix would also put him "fifteen foot high".

These various possibilities contribute further to the biblical atmosphere linking Children Of Cain with Holy Wood. I also interpret the era of Adam and Cain as a time lacking in Christ. Prior to Jesus Christ, Cain was the first-born son, and despite presenting an offering to god alongside Abel, god scorns him - "sacrifice won't suffice" - and yet accepts Abel's offering. The first-born is a murderer, a 'Born Villain'.

Manson talks about a 'Sineater', who traditionally was a pauper that would eat bread and consume beer over the body of a dying person to undertake their sins. Whilst being an inversion of the Holy Sacrament, this is also surely a form of EAT ME, DRINK ME... By definition, Manson was perhaps a form of 'sineater' following the Columbine massacre, as a sineater will bear the sins of the dead or dying, and then be shunned by the community that requested they undertake the burden.
Slowly, I can see the parallel between Cain and Christ. Christians consume the Sacrament - "church wine" - to further the existence of Christ via their faith, and Christ died for Man's sins. Man's first sins, prior to the birth of Christ, were consuming the Forbidden Fruit, and the murder of Abel by Cain.

These cross-references reveal a lot about the nature of god, in that god inspired Man's first-born son to be vengeful, and murder, creating sin, and then allowed sinful men to murder his own first-born son, the execution of Christ - "hang him on the cross like a 'number one son'". In essence the song is suggesting that the term "Children of Cain" is erroneous, and that we are 'Children of god', who is truly the first sinner.

BlueEyeLens
08-30-2013, 02:55 AM
I remember seeing a fb status that Twiggy wrote sometime ago, it read: "how can I absolve you of your sins, if you keep on killing me?"... thought I'd throw this in here.

Alterkaker66
09-01-2013, 09:45 AM
-You serious analysts must have fantastic memories, and/or reference books. I've always had the impression that Manson was an inveterate scribbler, making notes of what he's read/experienced and ideas for how to use them. Is the symbolism calculated to be as complex and omnipresent as it is made out?-

spaceSuicide
09-01-2013, 11:21 PM
Is the symbolism calculated to be as complex and omnipresent as it is made out?-

90% of the time not really.

Absolution
09-02-2013, 01:07 PM
-You serious analysts must have fantastic memories, and/or reference books.

Or a whole lot of spare time. Too much, probably.

Alterkaker66
09-02-2013, 06:23 PM
Or a whole lot of spare time. Too much, probably.

Lol, I'm definitely the one with too much spare time....I'm reading threads from page 1 till my mind curls up in a little ball and whimpers "uncle".