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View Full Version : 'Murderers Are Getting Prettier Every Day' & Boondock Saints



Sans Agendum
05-17-2012, 09:04 AM
WARNING: CONTAINS SPOILERS; if you haven't seen the movie you may not want to read on.

We all know Manson loves movies. I can't help thinking that this song has a lot in common with the premise of Boondock Saints. A movie about a couple of handsome Irish boys who, feeling that they cannot function any longer in their rotting crime ridden city, decide to kill people they feel are deserving of being cleansed from the earth. Culminating in a scene where a gang boss is assassinated in a courtroom by being driven to his knees and prayed over before being executed.

Fall on your knees. Horrid Voices of someone else's Angels


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKzM8xsQ5-U

In the movie the two vigilantes kill a few people by shooting them cross ways through the backs of their heads in a way so that the eyes are missing. "Bullet holes for eyes". Other victims have coins placed over their eyes, but certain victims have their eyes blown out so that they cannot cross the River Styx.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaGrYLDSNZ0

At the end of the movie, during the credits, there are mock news interviews with pedestrians, many of whom seem to feel that they are vindicated in their actions. People think they are admirable. Murderers are Getting Prettier Every Day.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXp7V7Zx6JE

ImNotJesus
05-17-2012, 09:30 AM
Wow, great thoughts! That makes a lot of sense, good find!

brian219
05-17-2012, 10:20 AM
Haven't seen it but it looks spot on from what you've described. Especially liked the part about not being able to cross the Styx, since that matches quite a few Manson lyrics like "heaven wasn't made for me" and "forbidden in heaven."

Terrific find.

A Better Messiah
05-17-2012, 01:54 PM
This also aligns with the vigilante persona that Manson has taken along with his band, this degenerate group of post-apocalyptic rebels who take fate into their own hands. He has mentioned revenge quite a few times in interviews lately, compared the band tattoos with those of "bikers," alluded to both zombie films and the Mad Max pictures. (The original Dawn of the Dead, a pioneer of the genre, featured a gang of bikers led by Tom Savini who raid the mall at its climax.)

Manson15Marilyn
05-18-2012, 10:05 AM
He hasn't said anything regarding Boondock Saints. When its a major inspiration or influence he mentions it. Otherwise its not worth him mentioning. Though, maybe he was influenced by something related to some aspects of the movie? It'd be a far reach, though...

brian219
05-18-2012, 03:39 PM
If it were just one little thing it'd be a reach. But with as many synchronicities as sans has pointed out it's reaching to try and dismiss it.

kleiner352
05-18-2012, 08:53 PM
This is really an amazing connection, and kind of makes me wonder how much really was influenced. I definitely see the "fall on your knees" connections, for certain! I could see this being a film Manson would really enjoy, too. Considering the amount that he's borrowed and been influenced by other work before (just check out the Bowie thread on here to see what I mean), it's not a far fetch at all.

Manson15Marilyn
05-19-2012, 11:48 AM
Let's assume the 3 lines in the song that you've connected to the movie is, in fact, where it came from; even if Manson hasn't found it worth mentioning. No one has offered any insight as to what it may represent either to Manson or to yourselves. Its all just "oh wow its similar to a movie I like, how great!" This is Marilyn Manson, man! There's far more to


You’re just a ring tone, that happens when you get sick enough to call the one with bullet holes for eyes. than you're putting out there. Could you at least shed some light as to what the parts of the song you've outlined, and connected to the movie, may represent?
_________

Though, I just don't think Manson had this movie in mind. And here's why:

#1 - As I've said, he pretty much hasn't found the movie worth mentioning. And until he does mention it, I doubt it was ever in his mind. After all, Manson is a person who likes to speak his mind; and if it was on his mind during the make of the album he says something about it. He is a very brutally honest person.

And, that one part of the movie can only be vaguely be connected to the chorus. As the chorus does not talk about praying to any gods. So they put the man on his knees... I could find for you many movie scenes in which people are brought to their knees. Marilyn Manson is not a christian, even though he was raised in a family that was. He only references chrisitanity now and then to be ironic, not out of guilt like so many kids do nowadays. Not everything in his lyrics has to do with chrisitanity. In fact, a lot of it is based on old literature that was inspired while being persecuted by chrisitans and the like.

The same for the other parts of the movie. Especially the last one, a news crew talking to people about how great the main characters were has next to nothing to do with that part of the song. Pretty / Beautiful / glittering is about the elite, the ruling class, the ones on the hill, hollywood. I highly doubt the role of those characters was ever anything like that. And I think, given his reference to flowers and guns in the album (Manson describes the pistil as the "female part of the flower." ), prettier means something different... something female if you will.

And what I've found is that the song is connected more to other songs on the album, rather than outside resources. For instance, your mentioning of the 'bullet holes for eyes' line which is connected to a line in Lay Down Your Goddamn Arms about shooting bullet holes into the lock to his box in order find what he hides, as a metaphor. And both of those lines are connected to another line in Murderers are getting Prettier Everyday about him opening his own box before and being "paid with the shadow of consensual rape" for doing so, becoming an entrance wound (bullet hole) to someone's bedroom grave. And that line is connected to a line in Born Villain about him giving a person a choice between either burning the bridge between them (representing himself in some way) or he'll do it himself. After all, the album has an overarching theme. Why wouldn't be base his songs off his other songs? Otherwise, it'd be inconsistent... And we all know there's nothing inconsistent about Marilyn Manson's music.

Its easy to buy into any theory that connects one of your favourite things to other things the media tells you, as long as at least some kind of connection can be made--however vague--but it takes a lot of imagination and thought to wrap your mind around what's in Manson's mind. Think for yourselves, don't let the media do it all for you.

brian219
05-19-2012, 06:24 PM
You’re just a ring tone, that happens when you get sick enough to call the one with bullet holes for eyes.

As I mentioned earlier, the being unable to cross the River Styx parallels previous lyrics concerning Manson being not allowed in Heaven, making him the likely candidate for the one with bullet holes for eyes.

You're just a ring tone = You place telephones calls.
that happens when you get sick enough to call = you only call when you're sick enough
the one with bullet holes for eyes. = me (Manson).

Put it all together = "You only call me when you're sick enough."

The following seem like they could be relevant to the topic in question.

Before the bullets, before the flies, before authorities take out my eyes.

Sometimes I dream I'm an exterminating angel, a traveling executioner from Heaven.

Manson15Marilyn
05-22-2012, 08:56 AM
As I mentioned earlier, the being unable to cross the River Styx parallels previous lyrics concerning Manson being not allowed in Heaven, making him the likely candidate for the one with bullet holes for eyes.But why Manson would be concerned at all whether or not he'd enter heaven? He doesn't believe in it. In the past, he mentions christian stuff to be ironic. Either that, or he would mention it through a book by an author whom was inspired by being persecuted by christians to be symbolic. But Marilyn Manson is not a chrisitan band, nor are they a satanic band; so he has no reason to take heaven seriously the way you do.

The bullet holes for eyes may very well be a reference to himself, though. At least I agree with you in some degree...

And that line from Unkillable Monster was a more romantic angle than any other reference. Everything on The High End of Low is like that, except its more about self-preservation than EAT ME, DRINK ME.

brian219
05-22-2012, 02:02 PM
"If I believed in an outside force that we wanted to call God - and I believe that there is one. I think God would appreciate what I say, because I can't see God wanting to create a world full of idiots."


"I'm not against God. I'm against the misuse of God."


"There was a saying that I saw on a packet of sugar and I think anyone can apply it to their life: 'Don't bother telling the truth to a friend because he already knows it, and don't bother telling the truth to an enemy because he won't believe it"


"You can't force someone to see the truth, just like you can't force a blind man to see."

...

Sans Agendum
05-22-2012, 02:09 PM
LOL! What moron said all THAT nonsense?

GOD!? LOL what a MORON!! What are we, children!? Santa Clause analogy what what!? /satire

Manson15Marilyn
05-22-2012, 04:47 PM
Irrelevant.

I didn't argue whether or not he believes in a god, I said he doesn't believe in heaven.

And those quotes don't even say he believes in god. He's said before he's not against people believing in god, he's against the way they use that god.

brian219
05-22-2012, 05:18 PM
Irrelevant.

I didn't argue whether or not he believes in a god, I said he doesn't believe in heaven.

And those quotes don't even say he believes in god. He's said before he's not against people believing in god, he's against the way they use that god.

O_O

How is paraphrasing a quote that I just used useful...in any way...whatsoever?

The only thing that's irrelevant is your tendency to present subjective statements as though they were objective truths. This invalidates most things you say.

Your opinions are fact. Manson quotes are irrelevant. I see where you're going with this.

Sans Agendum
05-22-2012, 05:45 PM
Out of respect, 15. We get it. You don't agree and your argument seems to be that you don't like Boondock Saints and because Manson hasn't explicitly referenced the film that it must have ZERO baring on the song. It's just not a very good argument. Moving on. You've yet to offer any sort of rational ... anything to discredit my observation so let it go.

21Faces
05-22-2012, 05:57 PM
Manson15Marilyn is quite right that trying to connect any sort of Christian theology in any ideological sense to Manson's material- particularly the more recent stuff, is a lot of crap. He employs Christian imagery in the same sense he does Nazi imagery. It does not make Christianity any more relevant to his ethos than Nazism. Manson's multiple assertions he would be unwanted in hell should not be read as outright theological statements or references to this or that material. Simply, they are just poetic ways of stating that he is (or is perceived to be) "unredeemable."

That said, this possible reference to the Boondock Saints is cultural/historical. Boondock Saints- along with The Matrix, was one of the films that also suffered some collateral damage from the Columbine shootings, being allowed an absurdly limited theatrical run upon its release. (Who'd imagine that studios would get trigger shy over a vigilantist diatribe carried out by two white disaffected young men in long black trenchcoats who gun down those around them they don't like after two teenagers do literally the exact same thing in their high school?)

That said, as a movie it is actually pretty fucking bad- aside from a few choice scenes featuring Willem Dafoe. I wouldn't be surprised at all if this movie was prominent on Manson's radar if for no other reason than its hilarious timing as a symptom of the American culture that bred the high school massacre he was blamed for. Bottom line: my personal take is the song's title seems to point to Manson's general and oft-repeated assessment of American culture sensationalizing and exploiting violence and murder (illustrated through this "bullet holes for eyes" reference to Boondock Saints). Most of the other lyrics in the song, however, don't seem to reflect any of those ideas.

EDIT - in a few places you can kind of see this idea of some other party (America?) getting what they deserve- "You've made your bed, now lie in it," or rather what they ask for while pretending they don't want it (the shadow on consentual rape). Mebbe.

brian219
05-22-2012, 06:11 PM
Manson15Marilyn is quite right that trying to connect any sort of Christian theology in any ideological sense to Manson's material- particularly the more recent stuff, is a lot of crap. He employs Christian imagery in the same sense he does Nazi imagery. It does not make Christianity any more relevant to his ethos than Nazism. Manson's multiple assertions he would be unwanted in hell should not be read as outright theological statements or references to this or that material. Simply, they are just poetic ways of stating that he is (or is perceived to be) "unredeemable."

Nonsense. You are ignoring a lot of recent references to the Judeo-Christian system of thought. High End of Low was rife with them, references to John 1:5, the lake of fire, looking up to see Hell. Last year he posted a single journal entry which culminated in a reference to angel wings being ripped off. And Born Villain? It consists almost entirely of references to Genesis! Cain? Garden of Eden? There is a lot of denial about this subject going on here. It's bordering on silly.

21Faces
05-22-2012, 10:36 PM
No, I don't deny any of those instances, but it is important to make a distinction between ideological and illustrative references. Again, the situation under discussion illustrates this best. Manson makes references to eyes being shot out- possibly alluding to the idea that he would not be able to cross the river Styx. This should not be read as an assertion of belief IN the River Styx, or in a Greek understanding of the afterlife. Neither than should references to Christ or Eden be read as assertions of belief IN either of those things. Rather, the idea of being unwelcome in Hell is a poetic way of saying he is unredeemable. Manson uses Christian mythology- and even some mythology of the Third Reich, just as he will use Greek mythology to communicate ideas. It does not mean that Manson holds a particularly Christian outlook on the world, or holds to any particular Christian views.

It's much the same way Salman Rushdie (an atheist) discussed his use of Hindu/Muslim theology and imagery in his work. He explained that his personal beliefs didn't matter. That writing about the people he did in the world they lived in believed in these thing- Allah and the Hindu Gods, so they are real in the writing. But he doesn't personally believe in them. Manson writes about America and exists as a force in American culture. So his work speaks the language of America which is inexorably tied up in the language of Christianity- along with all of Western civilization. We know that the apple signifies temptation. The snake is the Devil, etc. Nobody has to believe these things, but we all know what they mean.

Sans Agendum
05-23-2012, 01:05 AM
Where the fuck has this thread gone off to? Where did ANYBODY claim that Manson was Christian, believes in heaven or is Hindu or any of this shit? Who are you trying to argue with? O_o

It's like you're projecting views that NOBODY here has even presented just for the sake of disagreeing in order to feel smart or something. Nobody here has called Manson a 'Christian'. Are you high?

Also seriously what does your opinion of the movie have to do with anything? That argument is just beyond silly.

And really? None of the other lyrics relate to the premise I've pointed out?

"You always have to hire actors to play the devils that talk me out of my suicides"

This could easily be interpreted as characters in films giving a person something to live for and look up to. Which the protagonists in this movie could pretty easily be recognized as being. Villains who are taking the law into their own hands and forcing people to rethink the system. So instead of moping about, one has allowed the characters to give him hope and something to live for.

"And all your lovely talk, reads just like my will"

The characters are represent something that a person feels within themselves. They relate to the monologues of the actors in the film.

Pretty easy really. Now go ahead and disagree some more because you're now emotionally invested in me being 'wrong'. xD

Manson15Marilyn
05-23-2012, 11:38 AM
O_O

How is paraphrasing a quote that I just used useful...in any way...whatsoever?

The only thing that's irrelevant is your tendency to present subjective statements as though they were objective truths. This invalidates most things you say.

Your opinions are fact. Manson quotes are irrelevant. I see where you're going with this.How was I paraphrasing, when there was nothing to respond to; as none those quotes had to do with his belief in heaven? What am I supposed to take from them?

And I use Manson's quotes many times, more than you've given credit to. Just about everything I say about Manson's work is based on Manson's comments on his work.


Out of respect, 15. We get it. You don't agree and your argument seems to be that you don't like Boondock Saints and because Manson hasn't explicitly referenced the film that it must have ZERO baring on the song. It's just not a very good argument. Moving on. You've yet to offer any sort of rational ... anything to discredit my observation so let it go.Am I not allowed to descent? What do you think "Evidence & Analyses" means? And I've offered lots of rational thought that's been discredited as irrational because you disagree and you want to impose your beliefs onto other people.

And @the argument about there being chrisitan references in Manson's work. There are chrisitan references, but they aren't nearly as plenty as some people make it out to be. But yes, most of his work that has anything to do with chrisitanity is him being ironic or "regurgitating your propaganda back at you." as Manson put it years ago. But that's to prove a point, he doesn't do it because he believes in it or takes it seriously; nor does he do it because he's interested in it. He believes there's good you can take out of anything, and chrisitanity was dominant in his early life; but so has liturature and film since then. Not everything he references has to do with god or satan, etc. Because he doesn't feel guilty like most kids do for not believing in that god or satan, and that's because he's 100% certain in his own mind that there isn't.

brian219
05-23-2012, 03:08 PM
How was I paraphrasing, when there was nothing to respond to; as none those quotes had to do with his belief in heaven? What am I supposed to take from them?

You changed the Manson quote "I'm not against God. I'm against the misuse of God" to "he's not against people believing in god, he's against the way they use that god." PARAPHRASING. You slightly altered the meaning, as well.


And I use Manson's quotes many times, more than you've given credit to. Just about everything I say about Manson's work is based on Manson's comments on his work.

Actually, based on the posts you've made in these forums, this is not true. You post opinions of your own that are merely based on quotes. Yes, you have posted quotes, but the majority of what you say is along the lines of "omg gais, Manson wouldn't do that" or "omg gais, Manson doesn't believe in that."


Am I not allowed to descent? What do you think "Evidence & Analyses" means? And I've offered lots of rational thought that's been discredited as irrational because you disagree and you want to impose your beliefs onto other people.

Evidence and Analysis means what it means. Most of what you have to say is opinion masquerading as stone set fact. Sans presented his find, which I believe is a good one, for everyone to analyze. He included his reasoning for making the connection, and provided clear citations from both works. That's as good as it gets for a thread like this. What should have followed from other posters was supporting evidence, general comments either for or against and/or for those that disagreed to provide EVIDENCE to the contrary. What did you provide? Well, you made a lot of commentary. Which is fine, except the commentary usually led up to things like this: "When its a major inspiration or influence he mentions it." That's purely you're belief. For all any of us knows he may pepper his albums with things he never mentions. You also said: "He doesn't believe in it." This requires some sort of psychic ability to say for sure, yet you presented it as FACT.

Clearly, if anyone in this thread has been trying to impose their beliefs on other people IT'S YOU. All I have been trying to do is examine lyrics in comparison to a film. You took it upon yourself to jump in basically saying "hurrrr, that can't be right Mansin doesn't believe in teh heaven," completely OBLIVIOUS to the FACT that his beliefs are totally IRRELEVENT to this conversation. So either quit trying to make this about what's in the man's head OR go find a quote where he said he has NOT seen Boondock Saints OR shut the fuck up.

Manson15Marilyn
05-24-2012, 11:44 AM
You changed the Manson quote ... You slightly altered the meaning, as well. I did?

Because I never remember responding to them. They say what they say. I offered other examples that might have some relation to what you posted, and simply explain that you've posted nothing in regards to what he's said about Heaven.

And you clearly haven't read all my posts. Maybe I haven't posted many Manson quotes in this thread, but in the forum I'm provided quite a bit...


Actually, based on the posts you've made in these forums, this is not true. You post opinions of your own that are merely based on quotes ... Evidence and Analysis means what it means. Most of what you have to say is opinion masquerading as stone set fact. Sans presented his find, which I believe is a good one, for everyone to analyze. He included his reasoning for making the connection, and provided clear citations from both works.No. You see, I tend to favor what Manson says over what fans say; because no one knows more about Marilyn Manson's music than the members of the band. Its not my opinion on the quotes, I use them the way they were said.

Having said that, Sans has posted his own connections from Manson's music to one of his favourite movies. That's great, but that may not have been Manson's intentions at all. Especially since the examples he gave were as vague as can be. For example, the "fall on your knees" part which he based on a scene where a guy is brought to his knees. How many scenes in how many movies do people get on their knees? Too many to count. Or he connected the title with people revering the main characters. That's a good thought, but what do you think that represents? I still have yet to gain a response for these questions.

And I think you at least offered what you think some of it could represent, which I responded to because your theory requires Manson to take the ideals of heaven and christianity seriously. And I've explained my findings about that. But otherwise Its all been "Oh, it could connect somewhat to my favourite movie. How great!" Anyone care to elaborate?

Its good that he posted something for us to analyse. But the people who praise it don't get a sarcastic response. Since I'm descenting on the idea, you've become bitter with me; using rhetoric laced with satire to answer my questions. Some of them were hilarious, don't get me wrong. Just saying, a bit of an irrational response to someone who is expressing disagreement. You have to realise, sometimes in life there's always going to be someone who won't agree. The least you could do is be civil about it. We're all Manson fans here. There's no "Manson club" or anything... right?


Clearly, if anyone in this thread has been trying to impose their beliefs on other people IT'S YOU.No.

See, I do with Sans--and you--what I do with chrisitan people when they impose their beliefs onto me. I point out blanks in their logic--things they fail to (can't) explain, and I ask questions about what they believe. I've dealt with conversations like this before, and I've requested an explanation. And there's no need for the bitterness. Just give me a straight answer. I don't think that's too much to ask.


his beliefs are totally IRRELEVENT to this conversationWhen it comes to his lyrical content, what he believes does come into play at some point. After all, in that other thread you were using what he explained about his beliefs that you can visit another time period in your dreams to explain how Born Villain is related to the trilogy chronologically or conceptually. So, what's wrong with me doing the same thing? Don't be a hypocrite...

Sans Agendum
05-24-2012, 01:22 PM
Dude. Again. Where the fuck did I imply that Manson is Christian? Or that I am Christian? You're confused, man. Big time.

What is happening here is we have sited multiple times that Manson has quoted scripture and you've said that doesn't mean he believes in it or is christian and we are like "We didn't say that." and you're on one now trying to say we're calling Manson is a Christian, when all we're saying is that there are Christian elements in his work. NOT that his work is pimping Christianity in any way. Just objectively being injected into his songs.

Get a grip on reality instead of being so arrogant.

You really are the one projecting your own beliefs on to Manson, the person, and that has nothing to do with this topic. Please stop posting. You've basically just revealed that your agenda in posting is somehow to discredit any relation between Manson's work and Christianity. Which is totally beyond the original point of conversation. I'm open to discuss things without going off on rants about my personal beliefs. Something you're failing desperately at. So again. Go away. And in the future keep your ego out of discussions I start.

I started a thread about a song and a movie and now you're turning it into some stupid personal crusade against stupid religions. Fucking hell. LAME.

*A note to mods. Can you please take everything up to the third time M15M posted and throw it into the satanic modules thread? I'd appreciate it.

Manson15Marilyn
05-24-2012, 02:53 PM
Dude. Again. Where the fuck did I imply that Manson is Christian? Or that I am Christian?The whole christian conversation ended long ago. Just let that go, man. He's not a chrisitan, you know that, so why try to stir that back up again?

Why are you dodging my question? Do you not know why you connected those two together? Surely, you wouldn't make a connection without also thinking about what Manson means by it...

All I've heard from you is "Oh, it could be connected to my favourite movie. How great!" - And I've asked you several times what you think that represents, and what it means to the story to Born Villain.

But I'll formally try again. What is the story to Born Villain, and what do the connections to Boondocks Saints you outlined mean to the story (what do you think it represents)?

brian219
05-24-2012, 04:19 PM
Bullet holes for eyes?

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/69489245/mmskull2%20(1).jpg

Manson15Marilyn
05-24-2012, 04:24 PM
^ I think the link is broken. I can't see it.

Sans Agendum
05-24-2012, 04:55 PM
http://www.nachtkabarett.com/ihvh/img/nk_trans3_newspage.jpg


The whole christian conversation ended long ago. Just let that go, man. He's not a chrisitan, you know that, so why try to stir that back up again?

Why are you dodging my question? Do you not know why you connected those two together? Surely, you wouldn't make a connection without also thinking about what Manson means by it...

All I've heard from you is "Oh, it could be connected to my favourite movie. How great!" - And I've asked you several times what you think that represents, and what it means to the story to Born Villain.

But I'll formally try again. What is the story to Born Villain, and what do the connections to Boondocks Saints you outlined mean to the story (what do you think it represents)?
Are you serious? You mentioned it in the post right above my last one.

I think the premise for Born Villain involves the idea of villains in movies and how they are made due to their experiences and environments. So the characters of the movie and how they were driven to BECOME what they are fits the premise of the album nicely.

Manson15Marilyn
05-25-2012, 02:06 PM
Ahh. There we are. Was that so hard?

Now, I may only slightly disagree there because I don't think its limited to villains in movies. But the basic idea behind the movie does fit with some of the album, yes. In any event, Manson doesn't believe in coincidence so he might agree that this movie and the song could have those vague connections. But I can't speak for him, so moving on...

Though, I've been thinking about his references to modern-day technology type stuff (sui-sites, ring tone, etc). That is something I've been exploring elsewhere.

There's a lot of the song that the movie doesn't cover, which is why I think the movie may not have had much to do with its development--if anything at all--but its a good thought otherwise!

brian219
05-29-2012, 04:46 AM
[IMG]I think the premise for Born Villain involves the idea of villains in movies and how they are made due to their experiences and environments.

I agree. I'd go even further and say that it paints the concept of there being no such thing as villains, since the villain, as much as the protagonist, is usually only doing what they feel they should do according to their own circumstance. I think "Hey, Cruel World" sets this up nicely. The "cruelty" being shown at the beginning of the album as the "cause" and the existence of the "villain" as the "effect." It just ends up relating rather cleanly to Manson's concepts such as "you should be ashamed of what you've eaten" and "we will grow to hate you," all demonstrating that he is the product of a cruel and hypocritical world. Just because someone does something that would get them labeled as a villain doesn't mean they aren't trying to do the right thing from their own point of view.

Manson15Marilyn
05-29-2012, 11:16 AM
^ Yeah, I agree as well. After all, he did say he doesn't want people to think of his concept of a villain as a "bad guy"; but rather in the sense of Macbeth.

KaeS
05-29-2012, 02:47 PM
I just watched the film today.
Even if I usually am not a fan of Manson15Marilyn's analysis, I must say that I totally agree.
IMO this comparison has nothing serious to be built on.

* There are a lot of films in which you can see people falling on their knees before being killed. It is something very common, it refers to the act of praying, but it can refers to beheading to: before the head being cut off, prisonners were on their knees in front of the guillotine. The simple fact that a man fall on his knees and prays before being killed, and that a line in this song is about falling on his knees and hearing angel voices is not enough to say there is a parallel.

* The holes in the eyes where the killer put coins is not enough either. It doesn"t prove at all that Manson saw this film, as both Manson and the film refers to a common source, which is the ritual before crossing the Styx. In one of John 5 solo album, there is such a photo: we could in this way say that Manson has been influenced by John 5, or that John 5 has been influenced by the movie, etc. Nothing serious here: just a mutual influence coming from greek mythology.

* Sorry, but the last parallel you draw is the worst of the three: just because you saw people finding justifications to the killers'acts, you deduce that in this film, we could say that "murderers are getting prettier every day", so it might be an influence. It's not enough, nothing really serious here: this parallel, you draw it because you wanted to associate the movie and the song, but there is nothing in this movie about this sentence: if at least we could have heard something similar, but no, there is no such a sentence.

I watch this movie really in an objective way, I was not aware about his existence, and I just watched it because you spoke of it and I thought it could be an influence, but honnestly, no, I don't think, and I hear here people saying that it's nearly confirmed as such a lot of coincidences are not an accident, but in fact there is no coincidence: just very common facts that you can find in at least ten other films, very basic facts that don't allow or are not strong enough to draw a serious parallel.

KaeS
05-31-2012, 07:54 AM
Fall on your knees. Horrid Voices of someone else's Angels



To illustrate what I just told in my previous post, I just watched Werner Herzog's movie "My Son, My Son, What Have Ye Done", produced by David Lynch. Manson used this title as a myspace status, if I remember correctly, Manson used to refers to this movie on late 2010/start of 2011 on his myspace page (by the way, these are his last statuses, as he didn't update myspace since the end of THEOL era).
For exemple, his last status was "So what... so what...", which is the sentence Brad always repeat in this film.

Well, the movie tells the story of Brad, a strange guy who traveled to Peru and came back changed. He hears in his head a voice that he believes to be God's one, and this voice gives him orders. The main one will be to kill his mother. So, basically, Brad will become a murderer by obeying to the horrid voice in his head. You can see the connection with the title of the song and the sentence you quoted above.

In the end of the movie, the SWAT team captures Brad. The leader tells him explicitely: "Fall on your knees!" We then see Brad falling on his knees and being arrested.

I'm not saying that this song explicitely refers to the movie, but it completes what I told about the risk of drawing lame parallels between two things: we need solid evidences. I think the evidences I just gave are at least as strong as yours, but in my case, Manson himself refers to the movie so we know he was looking at it when he was working on Born Villain.

namkrad
05-31-2012, 07:11 PM
I just watched the film today.
Even if I usually am not a fan of Manson15Marilyn's analysis, I must say that I totally agree.
IMO this comparison has nothing serious to be built on.

* There are a lot of films in which you can see people falling on their knees

To be honest I think it might be a reference to Nine Inch Knees. Manson said he wanted to get back to basics and Trent Reznor did help him get up off his knees so to speak. Maybe he wants Trent to fall on his knees even whilst he goes back to the old sound to get off his knees. Nine Inch Nails do have a lot of references to knees in their songs and I somehow doubt the knees thing is a coincidence. Manson did once say that there are no such thing as coincidences and the knees reference does seem to be important.

Closer
"Within my stomach, scraped off my knees"

The Hand That Feeds
"Can you get up off your knees? Will you stay down on your knees?"

Capital G
"Now Im on my hands and knees"

My Violent Heart
"On hands and knees we crawl"

Terrible Lie
"I'm on my hands and knees"

March of the Pigs
"Crawl right up on your knees"

The Beginning of the End
"Down on your knees"

etc

brian219
05-31-2012, 11:40 PM
To illustrate what I just told in my previous post, I just watched Werner Herzog's movie "My Son, My Son, What Have Ye Done", produced by David Lynch. Manson used this title as a myspace status, if I remember correctly, Manson used to refers to this movie on late 2010/start of 2011 on his myspace page (by the way, these are his last statuses, as he didn't update myspace since the end of THEOL era).
For exemple, his last status was "So what... so what...", which is the sentence Brad always repeat in this film.

Well, the movie tells the story of Brad, a strange guy who traveled to Peru and came back changed. He hears in his head a voice that he believes to be God's one, and this voice gives him orders. The main one will be to kill his mother. So, basically, Brad will become a murderer by obeying to the horrid voice in his head. You can see the connection with the title of the song and the sentence you quoted above.

In the end of the movie, the SWAT team captures Brad. The leader tells him explicitely: "Fall on your knees!" We then see Brad falling on his knees and being arrested.

I'm not saying that this song explicitely refers to the movie, but it completes what I told about the risk of drawing lame parallels between two things: we need solid evidences. I think the evidences I just gave are at least as strong as yours, but in my case, Manson himself refers to the movie so we know he was looking at it when he was working on Born Villain.

Good stuff. You make a strong case for this film being referenced. I don't think it discounts the other as also possibly being referenced. I think Manson absolutely peppers his lyrics with pop culture references, not to say anything about the theme of those works, but just to use them as a form of shorthand to convey snippets of concepts. In this way he can say quite a lot in relatively few words. It's a very common practice to cite other works lyrically to convey a complex idea, I think Manson just makes his more obscure.

I think some may be overemphasizing the importance of these references, whether they be real or not. When Bowie said "Mickey Mouse has grown up a cow," it was to use a shorthand that people would understand to expand a concept, not so people would deeply analyze the themes of Mickey Mouse in relation to the song. Manson is just using less familiar symbols.

With the Boondock thing, I found the characters having their eyes shot out to be the most illuminating aspect of the whole thread. Yes, it plays on Greek mythology and yes people having their eyes shot out like this may appear elsewhere (I don't know one way or another), but the concept serves to shed light on the lyric regardless of whether Boondock was the actual source.

As for "horrid voices of someone else's angels," i think its a pretty clear biblical reference. he doesn't say "horrid voices of angels," he says "someone else's," implying two different groups of angels, one of which he detests.


And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels

We see the implied ownership or leadership demonstrated by "someone else's" and we see two distinct groupings of angels on opposing sides.


but it completes what I told about the risk of drawing lame parallels between two things: we need solid evidences.

Unfortunately, "solid evidences" in a situation like this is going to be a rarity. Yes, Manson will name major influences on a work, such as with Macbeth, but he's never gone through bit-by-bit and mentioned every single thing he happens to include a nod to. I seriously doubt he ever will. This type of discussion will always have to remain subjective as there can be no objective proof, such as that you wish for. All we can really say is "this reminds me of this" or "that reminds me of that" and maybe someone else will see it the same way. As far as I know there is not way to gauge the likelihood of whether any of these type of things are what Manson had in mind or not. So all we can do is post what we spot and see if it clicks with anyone else. Just as with literary criticism, it's not an exact science and never can be.

Sans Agendum
06-02-2012, 08:57 AM
All I did is make a thread saying I noticed some synchronicity between the concept of the album, this particular song and this particular movie.

Nobody has been able to discount any synchronicity because they are simply there.

The strongest and most recurring argument in response seems to be "This movie SUCKS, so no way!" and "Manson hasn't said he watched this movie so there's no way he's seen it." Sorry, but that is simply a worthless argument. You'd have to be blind to discredit the synchronicity present here.

I think certain new users on this forum just feel butthurt and want to drag down other people's threads because they feel their own haven't gotten enough attention.

KaeS
06-03-2012, 08:57 AM
I don't know if you're talking to me, but I'm not really new. I used to follow news on mansonusa and when it shut down, I just stopped to post on forums, but I was still lurking here and on NK.
I find amazing that you feel the need to respond with some kind of agressivity when someone just discuss your opinion and propose some different point of view with arguments. It is just what you did since the beginning of the conversation, and even before I posted.
Your argument is absurd, you propose a parallel and when someone says that it is not solid enough to be convincing, you respond that it is not because we are lacking of evidences that this cannot be true. Yes, but in this case we could make 100.000 other insignifiant parallels, without any consistence, and consider that because no one is able to prove that Manson did not deny this parallel, it might, or it must be true.

Yeah, I never said this movie sucked and I never affirmed that Manson didn't watch this movie. I just said that the synchronicity that seems so obvious to your opinion isn't really so strong: most of the parallels you did have another source which is the same for both the film and both the song. Best exemple: the coins in the eyes are not an evidence showing that Manson watched this movie, but just a pattern coming from Greek Mythology. He could have seen this film, or not, but I don't think it's solid enough to prove anything. Maybe I'm blind, but I'm careful, and maybe you're a bit stubborn.

@brian219: precisely, I work into literary critics and am specialized in what we call intertextuality, which is the science of drawing parallel between things. This is what brings me to be very careful about the hypothesis we could propose.

Sans Agendum
06-03-2012, 09:55 AM
There's plenty of parallels between the song and the movie, which I have shown and you cannot disprove the parallels.

I'm sorry but you can't. They're just there and that's all I was pointing out.