PDA

View Full Version : Is Born Villain Marilyn Manson's Catcher In The Rye?



thatrussianman
06-01-2012, 01:58 AM
Anybody ever read Catcher in the Rye?
1. Mental disorders
2. Phonies
3. Contradiction and Hipocrasy
I AM AMONG NO ONE

Atom
06-01-2012, 06:30 AM
No. Because it's not a book.

namkrad
06-01-2012, 07:59 AM
No. Because it's not a book.

I think what thatrussianman meant was that Born Villain was the musical version of the book. Salinger was blamed for John Lennons death, Manson sings about John Lennon and Manson was blamed for columbine. Its not hard to see how the artists and the events are related on one level. And reading through the lyrics of Born Villain, MM actually uses the word 'Phony' in Overneath. You probably thought he was singing Persephone like I did because it sounds EXACTLY like it. I can see where thatrussian man is coming from. The book is about drinking smoking swearing and prostitutes which are all things people probably think of when they think of manson.

AssetReign
06-01-2012, 08:04 AM
I'm not sure Russian meant his question to be taken so literally, but the only person who "blamed" Salinger for Lennon's death was Mark Chapman.

namkrad
06-01-2012, 08:26 AM
I'm not sure Russian meant his question to be taken so literally, but the only person who "blamed" Salinger for Lennon's death was Mark Chapman.

Either way I can see where Russian is coming from thats all. Are you sure the press didnt blame Salinger for the shooting? Because that would make a lot of sense whith what manson is saying. Im just saying that its probably all connected. Manson is a smart man and im pretty sure he knows what words were invented by Salinger. He does enough of that himself!

AssetReign
06-01-2012, 08:37 AM
Either way I can see where Russian is coming from thats all. Are you sure the press didnt blame Salinger for the shooting? Because that would make a lot of sense whith what manson is saying. Im just saying that its probably all connected. Manson is a smart man and im pretty sure he knows what words were invented by Salinger. He does enough of that himself!

Only Russian can say if he meant his Catcher In The Rye post to be taken literally, but my interpretation was he meant thematically. Before I continue tho I have a serious question for you. Are you still in your teens?

namkrad
06-01-2012, 08:42 AM
Only Russian can say if he meant his Catcher In The Rye post to be taken literally, but my interpretation was he meant thematically. Before I continue tho I have a serious question for you. Are you still in your teens?

I honestly dont see how that is relevent. Age is all relative and i am pretty grown up for my age. Why would you even ask? Its not like you have to be a certain age to read Catcher in the Rye anyway.

AssetReign
06-01-2012, 09:07 AM
I honestly dont see how that is relevent. Age is all relative and i am pretty grown up for my age. Why would you even ask? Its not like you have to be a certain age to read Catcher in the Rye anyway.

Never mind. You answered my question. It explains a lot.

namkrad
06-01-2012, 09:13 AM
Never mind. You answered my question. It explains a lot.

Actually you should read over what I said again. I never once said i was in my teens. Actually im 25 and own my own cat. And what exactly would it explain even if i was a teenager? To be honest im more interested in what you were going to "continue" on to say. Russian may well have been talking thematically but i was just trying to provide evidence for a stronger connection. Personally I believe that Born Villain probably is based on the book in some way but equally you might be right about it just having thematic similarities. Really theres no way for any of us to know for sure. That why this is a forum and not just a chat with the band! So we can give our own valid opinions. What was your interpretation?

AssetReign
06-01-2012, 09:23 AM
Own your own cat? LOL
Back to the Doppelgänger disappearing tattoos/Holden Caulfield/Star Wars Emperor theories. Carry on.

Atom
06-01-2012, 09:40 AM
As soon as you hit 18 you can no longer say, "I'm pretty grown up for my age."

Anyway, just because he uses the word "phony" doesn't mean it's in direct relation to Catcher in the Rye.

AssetReign
06-01-2012, 09:47 AM
As soon as you hit 18 you can no longer say, "I'm pretty grown up for my age."


Reverse Darkman is either 16, tops, or a brilliant troll. With his own cat.

namkrad
06-01-2012, 09:52 AM
Own your own cat? LOL
Back to the Doppelgänger disappearing tattoos/Holden Caulfield/Star Wars Emperor theories. Carry on.

This is an ANALYSIS thread.
I realise the tattoos didnt disapear and realised my mistake. I know it was the stuntman/ bodydouble Benjamin or whatever hes called. Does anyone know his last name? I never mentioned Holden Caulflield. Just that Catcher in the Rye was probably a major influence on the new album. If you want to overlook the evidence then thats entirely up to you. Noone would doubt that macbeth and shakespear in love were influences so why is it ridiculous to suggest that manson has read other books? And the starwars emperor stuff was just a metaphor! I wasnt saying that Born Villain was scifi just that manson is HEAVILY infuenced by films and that he DEFINATELY was playing a double agent. Manson is like a goth spy. If you dont agree then thats your own opinion but you cant deny what hes actually said in interviews! And to be honest im not sure what was so funny about having cat. Manson himself has several cats and noone laughs at that.

thatrussianman
06-01-2012, 09:58 AM
Yeah, I meant thematically.

Good "Phony" connection there! I just knew CITR had something to do with Born Villain after I revisted a paper coparing Hamlet to Holden.

I just was just thinking before then, "Born Villain is Manson's least angry album, except maybe for EMDM. Besides Murderers, a lot of the album 'Im weak 7 day im weak', DISENGAGE (stop fighting) LAY DOWN YOUR ARMS (stop fighting), and an embrace or eastern philosophy (Yin yang on the NR cover and BARDO in children of cain. So Manson's really BACKING OFF on this album, detaching himself FROM society, rather than ALREADY being detached from it, like Mechanical Animals.

So even though he mentions Le FLuer du Mal and Macbeth are his 'biggest influences' on the album, I see more in common with The Catcher in the Rye than anything (although I still have to read Macbeth and flowers o' evil)

Atom
06-01-2012, 10:16 AM
This is an ANALYSIS thread.
I realise the tattoos didnt disapear and realised my mistake. I know it was the stuntman/ bodydouble Benjamin or whatever hes called. Does anyone know his last name? I never mentioned Holden Caulflield. Just that Catcher in the Rye was probably a major influence on the new album. If you want to overlook the evidence then thats entirely up to you. Noone would doubt that macbeth and shakespear in love were influences so why is it ridiculous to suggest that manson has read other books? And the starwars emperor stuff was just a metaphor! I wasnt saying that Born Villain was scifi just that manson is HEAVILY infuenced by films and that he DEFINATELY was playing a double agent. Manson is like a goth spy. If you dont agree then thats your own opinion but you cant deny what hes actually said in interviews! And to be honest im not sure what was so funny about having cat. Manson himself has several cats and noone laughs at that.

Pretty obvious now that you're a troll.

namkrad
06-01-2012, 10:19 AM
Pretty obvious now that you're a troll.

Its a god damn metaphor. Almost every line of every manson song is a metaphor!

namkrad
06-01-2012, 11:26 AM
Yeah, I meant thematically.

Good "Phony" connection there! I just knew CITR had something to do with Born Villain after I revisted a paper coparing Hamlet to Holden.

I just was just thinking before then, "Born Villain is Manson's least angry album, except maybe for EMDM. Besides Murderers, a lot of the album 'Im weak 7 day im weak', DISENGAGE (stop fighting) LAY DOWN YOUR ARMS (stop fighting), and an embrace or eastern philosophy (Yin yang on the NR cover and BARDO in children of cain. So Manson's really BACKING OFF on this album, detaching himself FROM society, rather than ALREADY being detached from it, like Mechanical Animals.

So even though he mentions Le FLuer du Mal and Macbeth are his 'biggest influences' on the album, I see more in common with The Catcher in the Rye than anything (although I still have to read Macbeth and flowers o' evil)

Thanks for the suggestion in the first place and thanks for the support. Noone else here seems to understand what a metaphor is.

thatrussianman
06-01-2012, 12:31 PM
It's just a fierce connection that I saw. And yeah, we're not saying it IS Atom, we're saying it COULD be? Why rule it out when a lot of the album and book are similar in theme?

Sans Agendum
06-02-2012, 08:47 AM
It's just a fierce connection that I saw. And yeah, we're not saying it IS Atom, we're saying it COULD be? Why rule it out when a lot of the album and book are similar in theme?

BECUZ MERLIN SAID IZ ABOUT MAC(NCHEEZE)BETH AND FLOORS DE MALLS SO IT CAN'T BE ABOTT ANYTHING ELSE!

http://narwhaler.com/img/in/g/marilyn-manson-smiley-face-INGtVZ.jpg (http://narwhaler.com/marilyn-manson-smiley-face-INGtVZ) Browse more awesome face pics (http://narwhaler.com/awesome-face)

brian219
06-07-2012, 07:17 AM
I don't know...This seems like quite a stretch. Sure, "phony" is a very common refrain from Holden and appears in OPM and the people in Holy Wood were "as fake as a wedding cake." Beyond that I can't really see any connection, besides, as namkrad pointed out, Mark David Chapman having a copy when he shot John Lennon.

namkrad
06-07-2012, 10:53 AM
I don't know...This seems like quite a stretch. Sure, "phony" is a very common refrain from Holden and appears in OPM and the people in Holy Wood were "as fake as a wedding cake." Beyond that I can't really see any connection, besides, as namkrad pointed out, Mark David Chapman having a copy when he shot John Lennon.

Thats a good point to be honest but im not sure if i agree completely. Holywood hadnt been released yet when lennon was killed but it is true that chapman had a copy of catcher in rye so i can see where youre coming from. Chapman was taking cocaine too so theres probably a link with all the cocaine containers on the tour. The imagery is very similar in a lot of ways but the thing with all the lyrics is totally obvious. Appart from the wedding cake stuff is there any more similaritys between the HW and the book. I havent read the book in ages so im not sure to be honest. Maybe not and it would probably need a new thread. Probs better to stay on topic i guess.

brian219
06-07-2012, 11:30 AM
Thats a good point to be honest but im not sure if i agree completely. Holywood hadnt been released yet when lennon was killed but it is true that chapman had a copy of catcher in rye so i can see where youre coming from. Chapman was taking cocaine too so theres probably a link with all the cocaine containers on the tour. The imagery is very similar in a lot of ways but the thing with all the lyrics is totally obvious. Appart from the wedding cake stuff is there any more similaritys between the HW and the book. I havent read the book in ages so im not sure to be honest. Maybe not and it would probably need a new thread. Probs better to stay on topic i guess.

Well, Manson did say that the Holy Wood novel took place in a city that's like this big, phony amusement park, so there may be a connection to Catcher in there, too. Also, the city was in an alternate reality, so there may be a connection with Majora's Mask and Catcher in the Rye.

namkrad
06-07-2012, 11:59 AM
Well, Manson did say that the Holy Wood novel took place in a city that's like this big, phony amusement park, so there may be a connection to Catcher in there, too. Also, the city was in an alternate reality, so there may be a connection with Majora's Mask and Catcher in the Rye.

Im not sure if you're being sarcastic now but if not then you probably have a point. You know that i wasnt completely convinced by the Majora's Mask thing but maybe its better to ask, 'Is Marilyn Manson music's Catcher in the Rye?' Certainly music is Manson's Catcher in the Rye and Catcher in the Rye is Manson's music. He suffered the pains of growing up on POAFF, ALIENation on MA, phony amusement parks on HW and wore a red hat for GAOG.

brian219
06-07-2012, 12:37 PM
Im not sure if you're being sarcastic now but if not then you probably have a point. You know that i wasnt completely convinced by the Majora's Mask thing but maybe its better to ask, 'Is Marilyn Manson music's Catcher in the Rye?' Certainly music is Manson's Catcher in the Rye and Catcher in the Rye is Manson's music. He suffered the pains of growing up on POAFF, ALIENation on MA, phony amusement parks on HW and wore a red hat for GAOG.

Well, a lot of those are superficial similarities. I pay more attention to conceptual similarities, usually. And, no. I wasn't being sarcastic. At all.

spaceSuicide
06-07-2012, 02:15 PM
No, if anything it's his hardest trying to be a Shakespeare thespian screenwriter with a bad language problem.

brian219
06-07-2012, 03:30 PM
No, if anything it's his hardest trying to be a Shakespeare thespian screenwriter with a bad language problem.

His hardest trying? What the hell are you even talking about anyway? Bad language problem? Indeed.

Anyway.

Is it possible that Fleming was referencing Catcher in the Rye with his Child Catcher character? Obviously, Holden's idea was to the benefit of those being caught, but could CC be a jokey inversion of that concept?

AssetReign
06-08-2012, 04:48 AM
No, if anything it's his hardest trying to be a Shakespeare thespian screenwriter with a bad language problem.

Hot diggity damn. Wut?

SysteMM
06-08-2012, 11:52 AM
no it b his version of lil wayne's Tha Carter IV bof classics albums LOL!

spaceSuicide
06-08-2012, 02:38 PM
Okay...

We have Overneath the Path of Misery which utilizes a nice spoken word dialogue from MacBeth and then later on down the line we have the lines about the rape of Persephone. Eloquently told though...

brian219
06-08-2012, 03:47 PM
Okay...

We have Overneath the Path of Misery which utilizes a nice spoken word dialogue from MacBeth and then later on down the line we have the lines about the rape of Persephone. Eloquently told though...

That's a very good point. Catcher in the Rye is kind of the opposite of classical literary references, with it's narrative utilizing a lot of slang and common speech. Born Villain with it's Shakespere and Greek mythology is more of the anti-Catcher in the Rye.

Very well said, SS!

AssetReign
06-08-2012, 04:15 PM
When I was a child, I overheard my parents talking about Catcher In The Rye, and I misheard it with incorrect syllabic emphasis as Catch Her In the Rye, which has nothing to do with anything (before Sans yells at me) other than this convo triggered a childhood memory.