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The Wax Gentleman
07-10-2012, 10:58 AM
I'm trying to get a handle on Born Villain, and it makes sense. It's simple, yet really complicated at the same time. Here's what I think every song's about, in a nutshell.

"Hey, Cruel World" - Change, as a person, group, or anything is imminent, and you can't stop it. Sort of a prophecy.
"No Reflection" - You have so many different yous, so many different personalities warped by...? That you find you have no reflection anymore. You don't know who you actually are. The rest of the record is trying to figure out what makes a person like that. Is it...
"Pistol Whipped" - Synthetic love?
"The Gardener" - Organic love?
"Overneath the Path of Misery" - Sadness?
"Slo-Mo-Tion" - The media?
"Children of Cain" - Religion?
"Flowers of Evil" - Again, a song about change, (the zombie metaphor).

"Born Villain" is a wrap up to it all, but I DON'T understand Disengaged, Lay Down Your Goddamn Arms, Murderers are Getting Prettier Every Day, or Breaking The Same Old Ground. I feel like they're all connected, but I can't figure out their meaning. Their titles don't convey much. And don't tell me "oh, it's Manson referencing the women who have double crossed him," or "it's the pain and suffering he went through over Christmas" or something like that. This obviously was inspired by Manson's own life, but I think he's learned his lesson with writing only about himself. Thank you!

Pestilence
07-10-2012, 11:15 AM
I am really confused about Disengaged myself I never understood what he was talking about really. It's a fun song just don't have a clue what it's about.

kleiner352
07-10-2012, 11:17 AM
This should be in Analysis not General Discussion.

Breaking the Same Old Ground is him saying that he's repeating himself. All of Born Villain is pulling old elements from his past albums and I think it's a flaw of the record but it's obviously intentional. It's his way of repeating This is the New Shit. "Everything has been said before, nothing left to say anymore, When it's all the same you can ask for it by name." He's breaking the same old ground, writing the same old songs and singing the same old shit.

LDYGA is just about dispute between he and someone and not wanting them to get close enough/have control over him. "There isn't a key you can use on me"- you're not going to unlock him, or get inside of him. He's shutting himself out. The whole "lay down your arms" is just saying, give up and leave him alone.

Murderers would take longer to explain and I'm feeling lazy.

Disengaged is really boring and I hate the song so I don't care enough to think about it.

And he hasn't "learned his lesson with writing only about himself" since the Gardener is an obvious song about Evan Rachel Wood yet again. Pistol Whipped is about an abusive relationship. No Reflection is he can't choose between Marilyn Manson and Brian Warner or Marilyn and Manson. Also the "made of scars and filled with my old wounds" is in reference to Evan and Dita as in the video he accentuates his EMDM spiral heart tattoo as he sings that.

AssetReign
07-10-2012, 11:23 AM
^ I disagree to the extent I don't think the lyrics are about a specific relationship but rather relationships in general.

kleiner352
07-10-2012, 11:39 AM
^ I disagree to the extent I don't think the lyrics are about a specific relationship but rather relationships in general.

Yes and no. The Gardener is about them in general but built around Evan. "Even though you were supposed to be done growing, she is still growing"- she was practically a kid when they started dating while he was well into being an adult. Also she was in the news as saying that they both needed to "grow". The general sense in Manson having said before that he gets an image/idea of a person he's with that they can never live up to, hence "she and every she is doomed to be your idea of her".

AssetReign
07-10-2012, 12:36 PM
"Both needed to grow" is pretty much what everyone says about a relationship after they've been dumped, and she was most definitely a kid when they began dating (nothing "practically") about it) but I still get the sense he's talking about all his past relationships ("she and every she...") rather than only Evan or Dita in particular, so in that respect I guess you and I are saying the same thing.
However, only Manson knows for sure what/who he specifically had in mind and, for now, he's not saying.
I, for one, am relieved he's not droning on about her because the "Evan Era" was like fingernails on a chalkboard to me.

The Wax Gentleman
07-10-2012, 12:48 PM
This should be in Analysis not General Discussion.

Breaking the Same Old Ground is him saying that he's repeating himself. All of Born Villain is pulling old elements from his past albums and I think it's a flaw of the record but it's obviously intentional. It's his way of repeating This is the New Shit. "Everything has been said before, nothing left to say anymore, When it's all the same you can ask for it by name." He's breaking the same old ground, writing the same old songs and singing the same old shit.

LDYGA is just about dispute between he and someone and not wanting them to get close enough/have control over him. "There isn't a key you can use on me"- you're not going to unlock him, or get inside of him. He's shutting himself out. The whole "lay down your arms" is just saying, give up and leave him alone.

Murderers would take longer to explain and I'm feeling lazy.

Disengaged is really boring and I hate the song so I don't care enough to think about it.

And he hasn't "learned his lesson with writing only about himself" since the Gardener is an obvious song about Evan Rachel Wood yet again. Pistol Whipped is about an abusive relationship. No Reflection is he can't choose between Marilyn Manson and Brian Warner or Marilyn and Manson. Also the "made of scars and filled with my old wounds" is in reference to Evan and Dita as in the video he accentuates his EMDM spiral heart tattoo as he sings that.

That's all interesting, thank you.
If you could explain Murderers, that would be SO fantastic, please please please please.
And The Gardener is obviously about another woman, probably Evan, but before when he was repeating ''I KNEW THAT OUR LOVE WAAA-AAAA-AASSSS JUST A CAR CRASH AWAY'' for five minutes... That was... Ehh... The Gardener is a more vague love song, not strung with meaningless vampire, blood, and death ''metaphors.''

kleiner352
07-10-2012, 01:34 PM
That's all interesting, thank you.
If you could explain Murderers, that would be SO fantastic, please please please please.
And The Gardener is obviously about another woman, probably Evan, but before when he was repeating ''I KNEW THAT OUR LOVE WAAA-AAAA-AASSSS JUST A CAR CRASH AWAY'' for five minutes... That was... Ehh... The Gardener is a more vague love song, not strung with meaningless vampire, blood, and death ''metaphors.''

I'm in love with EMDM, just saying. And the Gardener is one of the strongest songs for me from BV. Easily in my five favorites from it because it's one of the few that I find to be more original/has it's own style whereas most of the album is like "well let's repeat MA or ACSS again".

I'll do Murderers sort of verse by verse since it's easier for me to do that:

"Do you always have to hire actors to play that ones that talk me out of my suicides?"
Actors= people pretending to care/be his friend, people who are just there for show/status and don't genuinely care about he himself.

"You're just a ring tone that happens when you get sick enough to call the one with bullet holes for eyes"
They only call him when they're willing to put up with his shit, the bullet holes for eyes with the idea of him being morbid/sick or disturbing to them; Sans Agendum did a good post on here though connecting that all to a film called Boondock Saints and it clicked well also. I actually think that it's a woman calling him out of desperation wanting to sleep with him to have some sort of closeness with him.

"Fall on your knees, I hear the horrid voices, of someone else's angels"
Someone else's angels being people he doesn't view as holy/good in any way but others do. I think this song is another about women and that the angels are women who he sees as horrid/cold-hearted (Dita, Evan, whomever) and others view as angelic/beautiful (Dita's a model, Evan's an actress, etc.). This would suit the "you're just a ring-tone" line, as in the horrid voices that call him.

"I broke open the box when I spoke the spell"- this fits in with the lines in LDYGA, "you can't shoot the lock, I hide everything so you can't see". It's the idea of getting inside of someone, emotionally/mentally and I think the "spell" would be saying he loves someone.

"I became an entrance wound to your bedroom grave"- fits with Born Villain, "bedroom burial ground"- it's all about sex and love that is destined to fail/is already over.

"And I was paid with the shadow of consensual rape"- them wanting him to hurt them in the long run, fits with THEOL of "if you're not afraid of getting hurt then I'm not afraid of how much I hurt you". There's a theme in his work of mutually abusive relationships; Tourniquet, even the cover of Sweet Dreams, more recently Leave a Scar and Pistol Whipped. She let's him sleep with her even though she'll regret it and feel raped in a way since he's using her.

"Your ransom note is quoted by your death and birth certificates, and all your love, and all your love letters read just like my will"- what she sees as romantic, beautiful, etc. he sees as dark, fucked up and terminal. Fits in with "horrid voices of someone else's angels" yet again with the concept of him viewing what others see as beautiful as ugly.

"I don't have to see to know that murderers are getting prettier every day"- I can see this as being two things. First being, he's seeing the appeal of murder. he's seeing and realizing why someone would murder, he's kind of wanting to kill someone (he constantly said he wanted to smash Evan's face in with a sledgehammer during THEOL era, so that's not new for him, and even EMDM dealt with themes of dying together and murder-suicide/suicide pacts). Another is the idea of women breaking his heart, emotionally murdering him, fitting in with them being someone else's angels out of beauty (hence them getting prettier).

On the very next song Born Villain he sort of renounces an abusive relationship, "I'll unwrap the string that was me from your finger", and I'm fairly certain this about being a part of one. I think it's about he and a woman using each other and letting each other be used. She's a little pistol, something that hurts and harms him, and he's pistol whipped.

A Better Messiah
07-10-2012, 01:42 PM
^^Knowing your thoughts on the album, this probably wasn't your intent, but this analysis tying it in with EM, DM and THEOL as well as the relationship ideals actually makes Born Villain a much more appealing listen to me.

kleiner352
07-10-2012, 01:52 PM
^^Knowing your thoughts on the album, this probably wasn't your intent, but this analysis tying it in with EM, DM and THEOL as well as the relationship ideals actually makes Born Villain a much more appealing listen to me.

Thanks, Todd! I do enjoy BV and I think that the title track, Murderers, Overneath, The Gardener, and Lay Down Your Goddamn Arms are all brilliant and I love each one, I just have issues with the rest here and there. But yeah, I think there are some clear-cut connections and I think that Born Villain as an album is his way of letting go of the emotions he had while making EMDM and THEOL. It's him sort of rejecting abuse and rejecting romance at the same time, accepting himself as who he is. At the beginning of the album he's resigned and isn't sure who he is, hence "no reflection". He talked of Dita not wanting him to write music but just be a painter, and he obviously had that year of feeling like he wasn't himself. He has said who he was while making EMDM and THEOL is different than who he is now. I think that No Reflection is him grappling with choosing who he is going to be. He showed desires of maybe just being Brian Warner last year, as in a few interviews he referred to himself as Brian. He's all about duality and I think that Born Villain is him both rejecting who he was and who he is and settling searching on wanting to be someone new.

"Then I found out how to be what you want, but I was out looking for something new"- can be seen as him realizing what a woman had wanted in a relationship but he'd already moved on, or he realized who fans had wanted him to be since EMDM but he was sick of being that, he wanted to be someone different and new. If anything he's kind of expressing a sentiment of dissatisfaction at everyone else's over those two records.
"Digging too deep, now it's too late, we just keep on breaking the same old ground"- searching for who he could be/wanted to be too much and it's past the point for him to do that anymore, so he's resigned to repeating himself and trying to be who he was before.

The Wax Gentleman
07-10-2012, 03:18 PM
Thanks for writing all that, it does help me understand.
I feel almost like this is an intro to a comeback. The musical quality is great, but I wish he would stop saying ''I'm going to do a comeback. This is my comeback. Etc. Etc.'' and actually DO something huge and awesome. Not like the triptych. I feel like this ties up the triptych nicely, and EMDM, THEOL as well. It seems like a big tie up of everything, but I think, before he gets too old or whatever, he should do more historical things like TGAOG, the Celebritarianism project. It seemed like POAAF and SLC was an era that remarked upon twisted family values in America, and the way children are raised, which was fitting for the beginning of a career. Then the triptych remarked upon many social issues like the corruption that comes with power, religion, politics, corruption in the media, humanity's reliance on technology, etc. And TGAOG seemed like the start of another string of historical albums or some such thing. At least, that would have been perfect. But he never elaborated upon that. EMDM and THEOL were albums about his personal and love life, which never went anywhere either. Then BV sort of ties all of that up in a weird parcel. The triptych was the only thing that ever really went anywhere or said anything. I think TGAOG seemed like the beginning to something and could've gone somewhere, and it still can. I don't know, that was a lot of rambling. Sorry.

kleiner352
07-10-2012, 04:18 PM
EMDM was a great album if you ask me, it was everything he said it would be and not once did he misrepresent it (something he's done with GAOG, THEOL and BV now). It's his most introspective and personal album and I relate to almost all of it in some way or another; the title track is my favorite song he's made and musically/sonically it's his most pleasing album.

THEOL was good but he in part was pandering to fans to try and have what everyone bitched about him lacking on EMDM, so he threw in half-assed efforts like Blank and White and We're From America where he said nothing new and sounded bored saying it. That said, there's a solid 10 good tracks and the other 5 are all okay too, so it's a great album for me.

BV is him sort of trying to wrap up his stuff into one package and I don't like it because it tries to do that, when it's all good on it's own to me and we don't need songs that sound like other albums, we need songs that sound like that album and very few things on it sound distinct to me. I love that a song from ACSS sounds like ACSS, MA sounds just like MA, EMDM sounds like EMDM, so on and so forth. BV doesn't sound like BV, it sounds like retreads of other albums. Gardener, Born Villain, Overneath, and No Reflection are the only songs on it I'd say feel distinct to me. I like most of it (though I hate hate hate hate hate Disengaged, hate Slomotion and don't really like Pistol Whipped, and could do without Hey Cruel World and Children of Cain), but I can't say it feels all too special to me or important. I'm looking forward to whatever the next album ends up being but god I hope he doesn't keep up with the "let's make Marilyn Manson a guitar rock band" attitude he's gone for for a bit now.

I kind of hate that Born Villain is everything fans and critics expect from a Manson record. It's paint by the numbers, it's nothing new sound-wise and that let's me down. This is the same guy who said he never would want to do what people expected and who went from Goth icon Antichrist Superstar, Beautiful Person, religious apocalypse guy to fucking glam rock, Dope Show hosting Mechanical Animal. No one expected that, fans hated him for it at the time and next thing you know it became a favorite. For me EMDM was that, it was nothing anyone expected from him. It was the last unexpected Manson album.

BV is too predictable and I'm just hoping that whatever comes next genuinely surprises people and feels new to his work.

thatrussianman
07-11-2012, 01:45 AM
I can just imagine Manson hearing that someone thinks The Gardener is about Evan Rachel Wood and laughing out loud.

thatrussianman
07-11-2012, 02:04 AM
UGH ... there's so much wrong here ^ but I just feel like I should point it out since people shouldn't be convinced by opinion but more by evidence ... lol 'evidence'

The only real way you can say Born Villain was predictable is if you read the Revolver magazine article before listening to the album (which I'm sure 80% of manson fans, including myself, did).

Remember when we first heard Overneath? What the fuck is Manson quoting shakespeare?? AHHH COOLNESS :D Never done that before in his music.

I can't compare a song like pistol whipped to ANYTHING he's done before. I love seeing so many different interpretations on what the songs mean but I hate to see it just left up to "Oh manson has run out of ideas and he's recycling old ones."
There was a point when I was so ... determined to interpret and understand these new songs that I forgot about actually enjoying them.

I really want to hear what Nick (Kushner) has to say about Born Villain, since he's super close to Manson.

I CAN RESPOND TO YOUR ORIGINAL TOPIC THOUGH
(Remember, I am saying these are just my interpretation, not like that other guy ... )

Disengaged: Well, I like to think of the Born Villains songs like Manson's paintings, VERY ABSTRACT (just look at Born Villain the song), but the focus of this song is becoming so detatched that you don't even know who you are or what you stand for

Lay Down your GD ahms: Unf I LOVE the chorus to this song. The focus of this song is that sometimes you try your goddamned hardest to get something, when you should have never 'engaged' with that something or someone in the first place. Just because we try our hardest at something, doesn't mean it was the right thing to do/choose.

Murderers: Oh the song is DARK. :D Tis' why I love it. This song is the most manic on born villain, and it should be, making it stand out more and be that much more ... important and significant. The focus of the song (since it reads out much like a story than most songs on the album, very visceral rather than abstract), is about how ignorance and blaming other people for your problems lead to violence and aggression. "I don't have to see" is obviously an oedipus reference since oedipus pulled his eyes out after committing an act of violence (murdering) his father, and fucking his mom, and also a double entendre for "I don't have to pay attention or be smart, or listen to reality, to be extremely violent" Makes putting the double cross on the cover of the CD quite worth it.

There you go :)

Manson15Marilyn
07-11-2012, 08:46 PM
Its an abstract album

Sans Agendum
07-12-2012, 10:22 AM
^You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

Norsefire
07-12-2012, 11:41 AM
BV is him sort of trying to wrap up his stuff into one package and I don't like it because it tries to do that, when it's all good on it's own to me and we don't need songs that sound like other albums, we need songs that sound like that album and very few things on it sound distinct to me. I love that a song from ACSS sounds like ACSS, MA sounds just like MA, EMDM sounds like EMDM, so on and so forth. BV doesn't sound like BV, it sounds like retreads of other albums. Gardener, Born Villain, Overneath, and No Reflection are the only songs on it I'd say feel distinct to me. I like most of it (though I hate hate hate hate hate Disengaged, hate Slomotion and don't really like Pistol Whipped, and could do without Hey Cruel World and Children of Cain), but I can't say it feels all too special to me or important. I'm looking forward to whatever the next album ends up being but god I hope he doesn't keep up with the "let's make Marilyn Manson a guitar rock band" attitude he's gone for for a bit now.


It's funny you say that because for me The High End Of Low sounded like a mix up of an album, I agree with albums being a whole thing and ACSS/MA/HW/TGAOG/EMDM, they all do that for me but THEOL just sounded mixed up to me and I couldn't take it in as a solid album. I enjoy THEOL but the mix of songs just didn't fuse together and have an overall album feel to me.
One of the reasons I enjoy Born Villain is that for me that has a solid album feel to it and songs from BV sound like BV.

Not Mechanical
08-13-2013, 04:41 AM
I was reading American Psycho (which Manson is obviously a big fan of) and came across something that I thought was pretty interesting in relation to 'Lay Down Your Goddamn Arms'.

'There isn't a key you can use on me.'
- Lay Down Your Goddamn Arms

'It's as if her mind is having a hard time communicating with her mouth, as if she is searching for a rational analysis of who I am, which is, of course, an impossibility: there . . . is . . . no . . . key.'
- American Psycho

Charles2012
08-14-2013, 05:43 AM
I was reading American Psycho (which Manson is obviously a big fan of) and came across something that I thought was pretty interesting in relation to 'Lay Down Your Goddamn Arms'.

'There isn't a key you can use on me.'
- Lay Down Your Goddamn Arms

'It's as if her mind is having a hard time communicating with her mouth, as if she is searching for a rational analysis of who I am, which is, of course, an impossibility: there . . . is . . . no . . . key.'
- American Psycho

Joyce Manor rule!

HG131
01-01-2014, 04:46 PM
I agree with this being kind of a wrap-up. Born Villain has felt like, from the start, to me, a period mark. It feels like everything he's done in one, but not in a bad way. It feels like a culmination of sorts, to be honest. And, that fits with everything he's been saying and doing. He's back on television as himself, but now he's also acting (sometimes as himself), and has promised more of that. He's doing so many collaborations that Marilyn Manson is starting to become an STD and... oh. Ever realize something while typing a post?

All the AIDS references: that's what he's doing. Marilyn Manson has made himself pop culture AIDS. He's going to so many different groups of pop culture and infecting them with himself, and then they'll hopefully spread him to groups that otherwise would have never encountered him. Californication. Eastbound and Down. Once Upon A Time (and not the Alice in Wonderland spin-off, which is surprising). Wrong Cops. Talking Dead. Gucci Mane. Avril Lavigne. Skylar Grey. He's going to so many different elements of pop culture and trying to woo some people over to him.

Okay, back on topic, this feels like his way of starting fresh. Dropping the baggage and moving on, pretty much. Now he's free of all his past work, all his past selves and all his past in general. He's able to do whatever the fuck he wants to do again.