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The Wax Gentleman
07-31-2012, 04:15 PM
I get The Flowers of Evil to a point. I get the zombie metaphor and the flower metaphor. How flowers can't be evil, they're just flowers. They're just victims of circumstance, etc. So the line

The day they covered us in the dirt, like stars in the ground that will grow into dead flowers.

makes perfect sense but what about everything else?

Your body's on me like sleepless spiders. Your touch is so empty.

I've been running from the bloodless for fear of exile for all of my sorceries.

This doesn't make any sense at all to me. Could somebody please give me some sort of vague idea what that means? Thanks.

thatrussianman
07-31-2012, 11:53 PM
It's come to the point where I'm like ... Born Villain is not about the words themselves, but describing certain emotions. And not simple emotions, but complicated ones. Manson repeats verses, and has said time and time again he wanted people to feel something, not feel what he was feeling. How the fuck is manson suppossed to know what people are feeling? Be vague. Good choice of words to describe this album.

Don't look to much into Born Villain, feel it.

the flowers of evil could seriously be about a bunch of spiders in a cave running from the light being covered in dirt for all it matters.

The Wax Gentleman
08-01-2012, 09:11 AM
Thank you.

Celebrity Killing Spree
08-01-2012, 10:59 AM
I kind of took the line "Your body's on me like sleepless spiders. Your touch is so empty." to describe all of the spent relationships, sacrifices and hangers-on that's made him the man he is today. It conjures a picture of being buried underneath all of these bodies and emerging from them like the flowers of evil. Stronger and nourished by resentment. It just takes the flower imagery a step further.

I really think this is the overlooked gem on this album.

The Wax Gentleman
08-01-2012, 11:46 PM
I really think this is the overlooked gem on this album.

Oh, it really is. Thanks for that, everybody, it helped a lot.
Can anybody help me figure out what is said at the beginning of the song? It sounds something like "The United Nations has declared war," but I have no idea. Somebody help, please.

HeartShapedAsses
10-09-2012, 04:52 AM
This song is probably my last favorite on Born Villain, but its growing on me as I started listing to it more I noticed something fairly interesting.

When he is talking about "the light", I always thought the next phrase was "shone" as in light shining. But I realized he was actually saying "shun the light", meaning avoid the light. Two very different ideas that give the song a different meaning (well its new to me, as that was one of the few songs I did not read the lyrics for, so I'm sure a lot of you already know this).

Anyway, another thing that's interesting about his word choice with "shun", is that it's a common Moorman word they use when a person has done something (sinned), so the whole town turns their back on that one person refusing to speak to them. Thinking about the past when Manson has burned some Mormon bibles, this came to mindmeaning the song may have some deeper association might be missing. Obviously though he's using in turning his back on more of 'what is generally considered good' in this case... Well that's my interpretation of it anyway.

Not that bit of a deal, but I thought it was fairly interesting.


Thoughts?

Bryson18
10-09-2012, 08:48 AM
This song is probably my last favorite on Born Villain, but its growing on me as I started listing to it more I noticed something fairly interesting.

When he is talking about "the light", I always thought the next phrase was "shone" as in light shining. But I realized he was actually saying "shun the light", meaning avoid the light. Two very different ideas that give the song a different meaning (well its new to me, as that was one of the few songs I did not read the lyrics for, so I'm sure a lot of you already know this).

Anyway, another thing that's interesting about his word choice with "shun", is that it's a common Moorman word they use when a person has done something (sinned), so the whole town turns their back on that one person refusing to speak to them. Thinking about the past when Manson has burned some Mormon bibles, this came to mindmeaning the song may have some deeper association might be missing. Obviously though he's using in turning his back on more of 'what is generally considered good' in this case... Well that's my interpretation of it anyway.

Not that bit of a deal, but I thought it was fairly interesting.


Thoughts?

I did notice that also. But I was thinking the term started with the Amish people? Am I correct?

AssetReign
10-09-2012, 09:27 AM
^ Shunning didn't begin with the Amish (and certainly isn't exclusive to Christianity), but it is one of their (many) religious practices. Despite the Biblical references woven through many MM songs, I don't think everything he says/does is a commentary (or condemnation of) on organized religion.

Having said that, it's very obvious he considers himself a Crusader against the business of religion.

arkahno
10-09-2012, 10:58 AM
I really think Born Villain is should be called "the flowers of evil" I think this tittle is more accurate with the content of the album, almost every song has a refference of the flowers and its cultivation.

"you are not a shovel I'm not your dirt"
"is like a garden with two flowers"
"the day that they cover us with the dirt"
"like stars in the ground that will grow into dead flowers"
"I can give you a dozen fresh cut pink or red or white"

A Better Messiah
10-09-2012, 03:25 PM
Flowers grow in the sunlight. Their inverse, the "Flowers of Evil" shun this light.

The Wax Gentleman
10-09-2012, 05:06 PM
The Flowers of Evil is a book, though. Naming the album that would be too blatant, and unimaginative.

Celebrity Killing Spree
10-09-2012, 07:55 PM
I love this song. I think it's the albums hidden gem. Love that he incorporated some Sisters of Mercy influence.

HeartShapedAsses
10-09-2012, 11:19 PM
I did notice that also. But I was thinking the term started with the Amish people? Am I correct?

Yes and my limited understanding of their ways. -I had recently seen a very boring film titled "The Shunning", it was pretty ridiculous though.


^ Shunning didn't begin with the Amish (and certainly isn't exclusive to Christianity), but it is one of their (many) religious practices. Despite the Biblical references woven through many MM songs, I don't think everything he says/does is a commentary (or condemnation of) on organized religion.

Having said that, it's very obvious he considers himself a Crusader against the business of religion.

Interesting, lean something every day, I think though in modern times the Amish would be the major religion to still practice it in the US as a body instead of speaking of a few fanatic cases in all religious. -But yeah while not everything is related to religion, but I think this song has a lot of refernces to a lot of different things as well as an 'epic poem' if I'm not mistaken.

Manson15Marilyn
10-10-2012, 09:26 AM
I'm never reminded of christianity when listening to this song.

The Overman
10-23-2012, 08:54 AM
I love this song. I think it's the albums hidden gem. Love that he incorporated some Sisters of Mercy influence.

Agreed. It's the best cut on the album.

petticoat
10-23-2012, 08:46 PM
I am enjoying Flowers of Evil more and more but because it's so emotional, to me, I've been known to skip over it. You know, for something more lighthearted...like....*still thinking* Anyway, the other night I read Baudelaire's Fleurs du mal. This site (http://fleursdumal.org/) includes six poems that were originally censored.

Out of the censored poems, this one stood out to me as really going to the heart of the violence one can feel towards someone they love:

To One Who Is Too Gay
-Charles Baudelaire

Your head, your bearing, your gestures
Are fair as a fair countryside;
Laughter plays on your face
Like a cool wind in a clear sky.

The gloomy passer-by you meet
Is dazzled by the glow of health
Which radiates resplendently
From your arms and shoulders.

The touches of sonorous color
That you scatter on your dresses
Cast into the minds of poets
The image of a flower dance.

Those crazy frocks are the emblem
Of your multi-colored nature;
Mad woman whom I'm mad about,
I hate and love you equally!

At times in a lovely garden
Where I dragged my atony,
I have felt the sun tear my breast,
As though it were in mockery;

Both the springtime and its verdure
So mortified my heart
That I punished a flower
For the insolence of Nature.

Thus I should like, some night,
When the hour for pleasure sounds,
To creep softly, like a coward,
Toward the treasures of your body,

To whip your joyous flesh
And bruise your pardoned breast,
To make in your astonished flank
A wide and gaping wound,

And, intoxicating sweetness!
Through those new lips,
More bright, more beautiful,
To infuse my venom, my sister!

(There's 4 more translations, this one the earliest and in my opinion, the best: William Aggeler, The Flowers of Evil (Fresno, CA: Academy) Library Guild, 1954)

The Wax Gentleman
10-23-2012, 08:54 PM
I've read a lot of the poems from "Le Fleurs Du Mal" after Manson started talking about Baudelaire. There are certainly some very moving pieces, I like it a lot.

petticoat
10-23-2012, 09:03 PM
My dog's middle name is Baudelaire.
But that's neither here nor there.

A Better Messiah
10-24-2012, 06:46 PM
Listening to this song now.

Anybody have much speculation as to how the poems influenced the album? I'm drawing some blanks, honestly, aside from some haphazard zombie theories that I posted on here months ago.

blue angel
10-24-2012, 08:08 PM
I've been inspired to read this next.

BlueEyeLens
11-23-2012, 04:43 PM
Has anyone ever read "The Shack" ? When I read that book, a couple years ago, and then when I heard this album, songs like "The Gardener" and "The Flowers of Evil".. in the book, there is references to gardening, when this guy was looking for this little girl who was killed by drowning in a lake after being pushed out of a boat by her sister. (If I'm recalling right.) Anyway, when he gets a note in the mailbox from the mysterious, he goes on a trip into the woods in the winter, and comes to a shack that transformed into a perfect cabin, 3 people were inside- who were these people? God, Jesus, and someone else (a fat black lady to be exact), well, he goes out and helps Jesus with gardening and the whole time, he's asking a lot of questions. Jesus says things like "I'm not a christian, are you?" ...when I was reading this book, I couldn't help but chuckle to myself.
It was a really good read if anything. The thing I'm trying to say, it almost sounds as if Manson had read this book at one point in time, and the book is really fucking popular, and it seems as if he took some inspirations from it in his spare time- but then took all of his old roots from the 90's and threw it in as well. (putting his own spin on it). I mean, I know this would be the most random kind of shit- but the thought crossed my mind- on a deeper level actually. I'm not a religious nut myself, as I am living just fine without it. I've already felt my mind in space, (and not just from smokin weed either..god that's been over a fucking year now.../ahem.) But uh, yeah.. if any of you get a chance, give that book a read...you'll see what I mean.

brian219
11-24-2012, 12:12 AM
Has anyone ever read "The Shack" ? When I read that book, a couple years ago, and then when I heard this album, songs like "The Gardener" and "The Flowers of Evil".. in the book, there is references to gardening, when this guy was looking for this little girl who was killed by drowning in a lake after being pushed out of a boat by her sister. (If I'm recalling right.) Anyway, when he gets a note in the mailbox from the mysterious, he goes on a trip into the woods in the winter, and comes to a shack that transformed into a perfect cabin, 3 people were inside- who were these people? God, Jesus, and someone else (a fat black lady to be exact), well, he goes out and helps Jesus with gardening and the whole time, he's asking a lot of questions. Jesus says things like "I'm not a christian, are you?" ...when I was reading this book, I couldn't help but chuckle to myself.
It was a really good read if anything. The thing I'm trying to say, it almost sounds as if Manson had read this book at one point in time, and the book is really fucking popular, and it seems as if he took some inspirations from it in his spare time- but then took all of his old roots from the 90's and threw it in as well. (putting his own spin on it). I mean, I know this would be the most random kind of shit- but the thought crossed my mind- on a deeper level actually. I'm not a religious nut myself, as I am living just fine without it. I've already felt my mind in space, (and not just from smokin weed either..god that's been over a fucking year now.../ahem.) But uh, yeah.. if any of you get a chance, give that book a read...you'll see what I mean.

What?

BlueEyeLens
11-24-2012, 12:55 PM
What?

Get the book. Then read the lyrics to the songs. Just check it out.

blue angel
12-02-2012, 02:25 PM
I've read a lot of the poems from "Le Fleurs Du Mal" after Manson started talking about Baudelaire. There are certainly some very moving pieces, I like it a lot.
I can certainly see Manson in this moving work of art. Now I wonder when he first read it.
I owe Manson for the gift of having read this. It is everything!

thatrussianman
03-01-2014, 09:20 PM
To preface this and all other Born Villain lyrics discussions, the infamous Steve Coy has publicy said that both he and Manson had poured hours into the lyrics on the website, and they are there as he intended them to be.
So, regarding the lyrics to Flowers of Evil:

"Your BODY'S on me
like sleepless spiders.
Your touch is so empty
Your touch is so empty
Your BODIES on me like
sleepless spiders.
Your touch is so empty"
Your touch is so empty
Your touch is so empty
Your touch is so empty

I have read every Manson lyric (ever) and I have never found an instance where Manson used the wrong spelling of a word to be "witty." What do you think this means?

Cringeon
03-01-2014, 09:27 PM
First one is singular, and it's not a possessive but the combined "body is" where the second is plural (multiple subjects?).

thatrussianman
03-02-2014, 12:00 AM
Well a body on top of a person would imply sex ... but bodies on top of a person would imply being buried under corpses ... huh, interesting wordplay.

BreakingYourMomsOldMound
03-02-2014, 02:17 PM
"Call me necro-feel-ya."

Shakespeare used the word "die" to mean climax sexually. "I will live in thine heart/die in thine lap/be buried in thine eyes." Manson has the same idea here. It ties in with, "Wanna fight, wanna fuck, wanna die, try your luck." He's pollinating and picking them as they bloom.