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View Full Version : Burlesque, Pin-Up & Tease Art Form Or Smut?



Celebrity Killing Spree
10-11-2012, 07:31 PM
[administrator note: New topic created because people cannot seemingly read a simple interview without branching off into four separate discussions. If you want to discuss the merits or intracacies of Burlesque performance, here's a topic in the relevant section to do so. Cheers, S.D.]


'zplain it to me, Lucy.

It's funny because no one knows or cares who she is anymore because she was only ever really famous for being married to Marilyn Manson.

The Hand
10-14-2012, 10:09 AM
It's funny because no one knows or cares who she is anymore because she was only ever really famous for being married to Marilyn Manson.

This is really not true - at least not in Western Europe. The whole neo burlesque thing is huge & she is definitely the figurehead/poster girl for it. She's in glossy mags and ad campaigns all the time, has her own fashion & cosmetic ranges etc. She's definitely very well known in the UK.

But yes, marrying Manson definitely gave her the leg-up

Cringeon
10-14-2012, 10:15 AM
She was a guest judge on Top Chef Masters and talked about how good the food felt sliding down her throat. Yum :p

Christina
10-14-2012, 02:42 PM
She's in glossy mags and ad campaigns all the time, has her own fashion & cosmetic ranges etc. She's definitely very well known in the UK.


Yeeeeaaah, I think I liked her better like this...

http://imageshack.us/a/img593/3407/tumblrkwwg8b0ohc1qz9qoo.jpg

Atleast she wasn't pretending to be classy then.

Celebrity Killing Spree
10-14-2012, 02:49 PM
This is really not true - at least not in Western Europe. The whole neo burlesque thing is huge & she is definitely the figurehead/poster girl for it. She's in glossy mags and ad campaigns all the time, has her own fashion & cosmetic ranges etc. She's definitely very well known in the UK.

But yes, marrying Manson definitely gave her the leg-up

I'm from Canada. I don't consider Canadian celebrities to be especially famous, because the Canadian entertainment industry is (although full of talented people) minor league. The UK industry is bigger. But the unquestionable benchmark for "fame," the one industry that America can still really lay claim to owning, the place we all talk about when we talk about the home of 'showbiz' is America. And Americans, outside of Manson fans and fetishists, don't really know who she is or at least what she's supposed to be famous for.

petticoat
10-14-2012, 06:49 PM
Sounds like a good place to be in, famous, but not too.

HeartShapedAsses
10-15-2012, 01:14 AM
Atleast she wasn't pretending to be classy then.

Really though, isn't that about as classy as burlesque dancers gets? -I think they are a step above straight up strippers, because they tease more often than show everything on the spot like strippers do. To me the differences is the same distance as geisha's and whores, close but they are different in many ways.

1984
10-15-2012, 04:50 AM
When you have to debate the intricacies of whether someone is an outright tart or not because they 'tease' instead of just taking it off straight away, in my opinion it is pretty safe to just say that they are both tarts and no further discussion is needed.

The Hand
10-15-2012, 04:56 AM
I find it funny how conservative you guys are about women with naked lady jobs! BAN THIS FILTH

1984
10-15-2012, 05:23 AM
You've really hit a nerve now, haha. Honestly, it's not conservative as much as it is despising Burlesque being known as an art form when it isn't artistic at all. If you want to strip, more power to you, just don't call it an art and worse yet don't call it feminism which is something that works it's way into the subject of burlesque more often then it should as well - in my opinion.

The Hand
10-15-2012, 05:46 AM
The F-word complicates things - on the one hand, as a woman you are objectifying yourself, but on the other hand, the whole sex-is-bad-and-women-should-cover-up-and-be-modest thing is a Christian/Abrahamic, and certainly patriarchal value. Personally I wouldn't say it has much pro-feminist value, but its pro-sensuality, which I think is a good thing.

As for the Art thing, well... I don't think anyone is really sure what art is. I certainly wouldn't class burlesque as high art or anything, but I'd say it's a couple levels above just straight up stripping. When you have women who spend hours sorting out a costume, routine & aesthetic with a very clear vision in mind, I think it's uncharitable to say it has no artistic value whatsoever - there's certainly an element of performance art in there (with more well thought out routines, at least. At lot of it these days does seem to be stripping out of vintage clothes)

1984
10-15-2012, 06:44 AM
Valid points and things I have considered - particularly the pro sensuality point. However, I honestly do believe it has no artistic value particularly when talking about neo burlesque, as someone referred to it earlier. While I do understand that a lot of work goes into routines, costumes and aesthetics and it certainly does take time and effort to put things together that raises a question. Does time and effort equal art? I don't think so because if it did, I know some pretty revolutionary and visionary brick layers/concrete workers up the road who are spending time and effort in laying pavement.

Burlesque will always be confined to the same result - a semi naked women at the end of every performance. It unfortunately can't get past that. I've seen a few Burlesque shows and I've never once seen any of the ladies play an instrument or do anything of artistic merit - one girl pretended to sing into a microphone once but unfortunately it was just a lipsync. Burlesque is an easy way for talentless women who want attention, validation and recognition and even want to be performers but don't want to put in the effort of actually learning to write, paint, dance, sing or play an instrument.

Maybe I'm looking into it way too much, maybe I don't get it at all but I truly believe that Burlesque is the lowest form of entertainment, right next to the mime and DJing.

The Hand
10-15-2012, 07:05 AM
haha! brutal... Enough in there to get you strangled with a feather boa

I didn't mean time & effort alone necessarily = art, more that taking the time to synthesise something that resonates culturally, is stimulating & entertaining etc, that would surely be approaching artistic value? It is different to a pavement (I did lol though). Ultimately what's the difference between a painting and a painted fence? Time, effort, intent, trying to create a little something as opposed to carrying out something practical or functional. What constitutes art and where the distinction lies between art & entertainment is one of the great ongoing debates & deserves its own thread.

I think the vast majority of Burlesque is dilletante shite put on by attention seekers - but really we could say the same about rock music! I think it is possible to put something together that is cute & entertaining, and is culturally informed in some way (ie a themed performance that is very well planned & accessorised), it just doesn't happen that often.

Shangri-LIE
10-15-2012, 07:14 AM
I've never been a fan of it. I've gone to strip clubs but never because I was desperate to see tits or be grinded on. It was more just to tell the performers made up stories about mental illness/ to get drunk around trash as I examined each person and chuckled inside. I don't dislike Dita as a person, but I don't consider what she does to be an art form. But again, other people might, and if they enjoy it that's all that matters. The people I don't like are the ones who are "into it" just because it "looks cool". Either those types of people or people who really have no right to be stripping.

1984
10-15-2012, 07:19 AM
Are we actually allowed to discuss things in this forum? I fail to see how this is off topic. Sure, it gets pretty into it but Dita = Burlesque and we discussed that. I certainly don't appreciate being spoken down to like that.

S.D.
10-15-2012, 07:49 AM
Are we actually allowed to discuss things in this forum?
Yes, that is why there are 'post reply' buttons and you can write things in the space after them. Anything else to suggest you can't, please let me know, my inbox is always open.


I fail to see how this is off topic.
Well, this post of yours now is, because it's you complaining, which has little to do with Burlesque, Pin-Up & Tease Art Form Or Smut? A discussion was engaged in a separate topic about a newspaper interview, and has now been expanded here, making it easier for people who want to discuss that interview in the requisite location, and those that want to follow this direction.


Sure, it gets pretty into it but Dita = Burlesque and we discussed that. I certainly don't appreciate being spoken down to like that.
I don't know who has spoken down to you, but given that you're one of about five consistently surly, boring, needlessly negative and frankly tiresome members out of over 1000 on this board, maybe it's not so nice when the shoe's on the other foot. In short, stop whinging and discuss the things you want to discuss if that's what you want to do, it doesn't seem to have been an issue for either The Hand or Dv5 thus far in a different location, it shouldn't be for you either.

Anyway, in relation to the topic at hand, I enjoy the aesthetic of attractive, well-crafted female underclothes, but have little-to-no desire to see them danced about on a stage. Burlesque and Pin-Up are physically demanding and certainly require a great degree of work. Over the past seven or eight years, aspects of both have been commercialised to a degree that any woman with a black fringe and Nekromantix CD seems to think she can do it, but that's what happens when something gets popular.

Other than that I don't care about it enough to worry about whether it's 'art' or not, or to start adding positive or negative connotations to the people involved with it. If they think it's art and they work at it, maybe it is. I like the symmetry and minimalist beauty of some laid brick as well.

blue angel
10-15-2012, 03:24 PM
I think it's useless, neither art nor smut and it doesn't matter at all. To me, it's just a style or a fashion and someone attached a way to make a profession out of it.
It takes no talent to indulge in it.

petticoat
10-15-2012, 08:01 PM
One person's art is another person's nothing-at-all.

AssetReign
10-16-2012, 10:42 AM
To denounce it simply because it has no intrinsic value is absurd. The same could be said about magic. There's no point to it other than to entertain. Like throwing bean sacks into a hole cut out of a plank at a festival in hopes of winning a lap dance.

S.D.
10-16-2012, 10:54 AM
Like throwing bean sacks into a hole cut out of a plank at a festival in hopes of winning a lap dance.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8py1wRTli8

AssetReign
10-16-2012, 10:59 AM
^ Hahahah Perfect!
:::tipping my hat to you:::

Mugwump
10-16-2012, 06:43 PM
^ Hahahah Perfect!
:::tipping my hat to you:::

I hope S.D. doesn't move this post into its own thread about hats now. That would be pretty stupid.

AssetReign
10-16-2012, 06:56 PM
I hope S.D. doesn't move this post into its own thread about hats now. That would be pretty stupid.

Don't be such a wimp. If you want to take a swipe at S.D., don't do it through someone else's post. Man up.

Mugwump
10-16-2012, 07:10 PM
Don't be such a wimp. If you want to take a swipe at S.D., don't do it through someone else's post. Man up.

Okay, ma'am.

Celebrity Killing Spree
10-16-2012, 09:45 PM
It's all art. Even the art of exploitation.

Helnwein said "Distinctions between high and low art are only for assholes who want to complicate things."

Burlesque artist or stripper? I appreciate them both in different ways and either one can bring me joy depending on what mood I'm in.

303
10-17-2012, 05:25 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDwraXBUHgs

Hazekiah
10-28-2012, 02:33 PM
I'm currently on PM Mobile so the bulk of this (or any other thread) is unavailable & invisible to me, but I just thought I should add anyway that anyone who doesn't think burlesque is an art form is a prude or a retard or both. It involves dance, choreography, showmanship, make-up, lighting, costumery, storytelling, props, etc., etc., etc. -- all of which are themselves forms of art, ffs. Claiming the creative use of these art forms in burlesque ISN'T artistry itself simply because ONOES LOOKIT ALL TEH NEKKID GIRLZ is just supremely ignorant. Ugh. Carry on.

Atom
10-30-2012, 11:44 AM
It seems like some people claim that burlesque is an "art" in an attempt to distance it from stripping (and possibly softcore porn, depending on who you ask). So, who's really the prude? There's nothing wrong with being a stripper. In my opinion Dita is merely a glorified stripper.


I'm currently on PM Mobile so the bulk of this (or any other thread) is unavailable & invisible to me, but I just thought I should add anyway that anyone who doesn't think burlesque is an art form is a prude or a retard or both. It involves dance, choreography, showmanship, make-up, lighting, costumery, storytelling, props, etc., etc., etc. -- all of which are themselves forms of art, ffs. Claiming the creative use of these art forms in burlesque ISN'T artistry itself simply because ONOES LOOKIT ALL TEH NEKKID GIRLZ is just supremely ignorant. Ugh. Carry on.

Porn has all of those things. Elaborate strip shows have those elements too. So then comparing burlesque to something you consider "smut" isn't that far off, now is it? So, who is being the ignorant "prude" here?

Hazekiah
10-31-2012, 10:54 AM
Fair points, except I wasn't really addressing the "smut" comparison at all but was rather focusing solely on the question of whether or not burlesque is an artform. My point regarding its artistry however clearly extends to stripping and porn as well, neither of which I have any problem with whatsoever, so I sincerely hope your quoting of my post within your own was as incidental as much as I likewise hope your questions of prudishness were meant purely rhetorically.

Hazekiah
10-31-2012, 11:18 AM
Argh, apparently I can't edit out the extraneous "as" up there while posting from my phone so I hope you pardon my double-post. And I also wanted to add that I think you'll find that many burlesque enthusiasts are less upset about the "smut" comparison than they are by the demeaning attitude of those who make the comparison at the expense of the artistry involved. I know you're trying to present your case with an open-minded and fair and balanced, broad-guaged application of the term "art," but phrasing your point about burlesque artists essentially being strippers with terms like "merely" and "glorified" pretty thoroughly undermines that point at worst and confuses the issue at best.

1984
10-31-2012, 09:03 PM
Leave the choreography to the dancers. Nudity to the strippers, performance to the artists and satire to the comedians. My problem with burlesque isn't the stripping, it's that it offers nothing to the table that another art form can't outdo tenfold.

I'm also not denouncing it because I've witnessed a show and thought "that's not artistic, fuck this". It has first been presented to me as an art form by terms like 'burlesque artiste' and various other phrases that one hears, so therefor I've judged it on it's artistic merits and I don't think there are any and from personal experience most of the ladies I've met who are involved in it have been extremely dim witted and lacking in any real talent and have obviously just taken the easy route to burlesque where miming into a microphone allows them to avoid actual singing, prancing about can be dancing and if all else fails - there are tits. Art form or smut? I just think it is vacuous shit.