11-03-2012, 07:40 PM
After some discussion about things getting complicated in the tour sub forums for each leg, I've put all the previous legs into one huge archive sub forum.


The archive currently contains the first Australia/Asian tour dates, North America, Europe, North America (Canada/SSMF), they're listed from start to end in chronological order.

I think the Twins of Evil will probably get its own archive, or may eventually be merged into the HCW archive and be given a general 2012 Tour Archive title. For now the US TOE tour dates are still archived in the North America TOE sub forum. All other sub forums contain new dates, I think once that whole leg has passed it will then be merged into the main tour archive.

Hopefully this will keep the forums a bit tidier and help you all get your way around it bit easier, but if you have an suggestions or feedback then post and let us know.

11-03-2012, 08:47 PM
Haha, I felt like such a dick when I realized people might actually read what I thought I'd buried in that thread, lol.

Something had to be done but I think this is kinda awkward, too.

The problem was mostly that it was messy and out of chronological order...and now we have no fewer than FIVE Hey, Cruel World...Tour subforums, all out of chronological order still, AND another Hey, Cruel World...Tour sticky in with the normal threads. It was hard enough to keep them straight at a glance and not accidentally click on the wrong one before and now we have TWO MORE choices muddying the field, lol.

Jeebus, after seeing this title in the main forum index it took me forever just to figure out where the hell the actual thread was, and I was reasonably familiar with the layout already. Confuzzlement!

And I don't think most normal people are even going to notice the archive down there. They'll just click on the first Hey, Cruel World...Tour thread they see that applies to North America, say to themselves "LOLWUT, 2 SHOWS?" and not even realize there's an archive down there with 59 others predating them.

I'm glad to see it's being worked on but I really think it's just gotten more confusing.


Maybe something like ALL the dates for both tours listed together in one subforum and chronologically, top-to-bottom, but color-coded or labeled somehow to indicate H,CW...T shows vs. ToE shows would be simpler?

Or two separate subforums, one for ALL the H,CW...T shows and another for ALL the ToE shows, listed chronologically and top-to-bottom within each subforum?

I don't really think people would have too much trouble navigating something like that. I mean, if the dates are listed start-to-finish in chronological order WITH the countries in the thread titles with the cities then there wouldn't need to be numerous subforums for each leg of each tour in the first place. Just pick a tour, go to the city/date you want (easily located in chronological order!) and BAM. Done.

Countless ways to do it, that's just the first and simplest stuff that comes to mind.

But right now it's just getting trickier, it seems.


11-03-2012, 09:43 PM
Lol sorry I thought pushing past dates into an archive would make it easier. It's what we did last time, although the forum wasn't as busy then.

In the end they will all go into together, but I still think having the split legs for upcoming tour dates is better, at least if there's a good amount of dates. If people come on here and want the US leg, or EU leg or whatever then surely they should be able to read which leg sub forum they're clicking into, I don't think it's that hard.

Also I don't think the sub forums are out of order because I put it in the order of the tour... HCW North America - HCW South America, TOE Europe - HCW Europe.
The Twins of Evil NA will be turned into an archive, although as mentioned even then it might end up being put into a general archive with the HCW archive.

We could put every date into one sub forum and list it chronologically but then I think we're back to where we were with people getting confused with past dates and new dates, and it would push them straight to the back and if people can't work out what leg they're clicking into on the sub forums I doubt they can click to the last page of a sub forum.

Also all, or if not most tour dates I did tag with their countries in the titles because we always planned to put them over into a single archive, the idea for the separate leg sub forums was to just make it easier for people to come here and find the threads quicker by picking out the leg and then the date.

But with the tour dates running out now I think the idea for having just two sub forums for HCW and TOE is a good idea! One of the sub forums will be gone in a day anyway because the North America Mexico dates only has two and then there isn't many for South America, but with fewer dates just the two sub forums could work well now. I shall look at this tomorrow, thanks for the feedback Haz!

11-03-2012, 10:24 PM
Oh wow, I feel bad now for bringing up that "issue" now. No matter how it's organized I just want to take this chance to thank everyone who's responsible for the best fan forum ever. So much work has been put into this, it's amazing.

It's hard to organize the tour section because there are so many shows and technically two different tours. I think one sub-forum for each tour is fine, since it's all chronological.

11-03-2012, 10:28 PM
Don't feel bad about it, we want it to be as good as possible and easy for you all to use so it's good to have feedback and ideas!

Yeah I think first thing tomorrow the remaining HCW dates will go into one sub forum and all TOE into one sub forum. I just talked to Cringeon about ways we can mark threads and stuff, he had some ideas for ways of doing that as well. So hopefully it will all become more organized, especially when it's in the archive.

11-04-2012, 11:24 PM
Whatever happens, it's definitely nice to see it being tidied-up a bit!

Thanks a lot for continuing to work on this, all you guys!

But I think another thing that seemed like a good idea in theory but just complicates things in practice is the numbering of the shows in brackets. That's gotta go...or be handled differently, at least.

I can't even COUNT the number of times I've been looking at a thread-title for a show and thought, for instance, that the 4th show on the tour was on October 4th. Hell, it's been bugging me for a while and I just did it again tonight when I was posting in the 4th show of the "Current Tour Dates" and thought it had just happened on TODAY THE 4TH even though it doesn't happen until the 8th!

Drives me CRAZY and I know I'm not alone on that. Almost made me miss a show or two when I wrote the dates down wrong in my tour-chasing datebook too, lolfail. They ARE right there next to almost-concurrent ACTUAL tour dates, after all.

Plus, no one really keeps track of things like, "Let's see, I was at the 17th show on the tour so, hmmm, where is...oh, yup, there it is!" so it's distracting AND kinda pointless on top of that.

No, they just look for the date or the city they're trying to find and HUZZAH! there's the show.

We could put every date into one sub forum and list it chronologically but then I think we're back to where we were with people getting confused with past dates and new dates, and it would push them straight to the back and if people can't work out what leg they're clicking into on the sub forums I doubt they can click to the last page of a sub forum.

Which raises a good point. Why not just extend the thread-count limit for each tour subforum so ALL the shows are right there on ONE page? Problem solved.

Just a thought.

But more importantly, how would listing ALL the dates for a given tour in their proper chronological order top-to-bottom on the page POSSIBLY be confusing in terms of finding past and upcoming dates? The ones BEFORE are PAST and the ones AFTER [insert current date] are UPCOMING, right? That's what's better about listing them together in their proper chronological order top-to-bottom on the page; it's [I]completely intuitive and doesn't have people hopping from leg-to-leg and subforum-to-subforum and checking and double-checking the dates at the top of the first page versus the dates at the bottom of the second or whatever just to figure out what's already happened and what's coming up. It would just simply be right there easy to understand and see as plain as day.

Personally, I think getting rid of the show-numbering-in-brackets and putting a big red [X] or something before each show after Manson leaves the stage to indicate it's been crossed off the list would make a lot more sense and be more clear and direct an indicator for everyone.

Haha, anyway.

Like I said I just LOVE that this is being streamlined somehow and don't mean to sound irritating about it, I'm just trying to convey the exasperation involved in hunting around all over the place the way it's been, lol.

Thought I'd throw out a few more morsels to chew on as food for thought, that's all.

Thanks again for taking the time to get things sorted and re-sorted!


11-05-2012, 05:48 AM
I had to number the shows to get them to display in order. A pain sometimes yes but otherwise they would just become a mess. Couldn't seem to find a way to let us just put threads in and keep them where we want them to be, so currently that's a way to do it.

Same with the red X idea, I don't think that can be set in the thread title I don't think it can be formatted like that yet.

11-05-2012, 11:46 AM
Ahhh, that makes sense then...thanks!

It's definitely worth the confusion not to have the tour dates completely jumbled from being bumped out of order every time someone posts a new reply then, yeah. I was SOOO glad to see them locked into place at last way back whenever that finally got solved! So, yeah, my bad...in that case that show-numbering is actually FAR from pointless and in fact MUCH APPRECIATED.

And just the plain [x ] that you guys have going on for the crossed-off dates in the North American ToE subforum is handy enough to indicate they're past-tense, I just thought the red might make it jump out more. Whatever works!

So what about the matter of just listing all the dates within each subforum on ONE single page for ease of viewing? It seems like it would be a good idea to facilitate people not having to click to the third page or whatever to see the most recent shows, while still preserving the chronological top-to-bottom ordering of the dates.

Is that just an issue with formatting, such as the number of threads per page being set for the whole site and not customizable on a page-by-page basis? If so, again, my bad...I wasn't thinking of that side of things at all.

Just curious, it's neat to know all the stuff you guys have to deal with on the formatting end pretty impressive to see how well-structured everything is within the inherent restrictions of the structural layout.

Anyway, keep up the good work!


11-05-2012, 03:29 PM
We can only do a few things for how threads are ordered. We can do it by order of last post which is how the rest of the forum is, so as soon as a reply hits the thread it gets bumped to the top. We can do it by order of the time it was posted, which could work if we knew every tour date and then posted them in order but because they get announced randomly it would still put them out of order. Or we can do it by thread title, I think last time we just did it with the months but then it would be April August December... and again would be place them in a funny order.
Yeah so that's why we ended up numbering them to keep them in that order, so other threads could be slotted in and just shuffle the numbers along to keep it all in order.

There's some great ideas come up in this thread though, so thanks for all the feedback so far on this. It's just seeing what we can make work and see if there's anyway to work around with the limitations we get.

11-05-2012, 04:10 PM
Likewise, it's neat to get a peek behind the curtain and understand how things work a little better!

Really appreciate it, everything makes a lot more sense now.


11-18-2012, 02:53 PM
The subforums have been cut down to just 2 now for this tour. One for all the upcoming/current dates and then one for the archive of all the past dates/legs.

Sub forums have a general Born Villain name right now, but HCW and TOE are both listed in the text under the titles. Hopefully that isn't too confusing, although once all the TOE dates in Europe are finished we could recall that upcoming/current subforum HCW again.

Cringeon has managed to work out a way for us to add an icon prefix to the thread titles so now all dates are put together the different tours of HCW and TOE are visually different with them having the icons attached now. The 4M logo is being used to mark HCW dates and a pentagram to mark the TOE dates.

Still got some ideas we're looking at, but that's the update of changes to the section so far.

11-18-2012, 03:18 PM
You can also sort by tour name using the following drop-down menu.


11-18-2012, 05:22 PM
Great work!
This greatly facilitates the research in this forum, thank you guys! :D

11-19-2012, 07:00 AM
Huge improvement. This has streamlined everything beautifully.