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Indeed
08-04-2013, 04:05 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sJUFiVGuDgI was bored today and decided to look back at old videos and the 2008 tour when twiggy came back to bass was amazing. 19 songs. Energy. A good setlist.
Im wondering what went wrong. 2009 only a year later and they are playing 14 songs with smaller crowds? And practically no stage show. What went wrong? Watching the 2009 rock am ring performance makes me mad. They played sweet dreams and skipped the solo. WOW sounded like complete shit live. Armageddon was even shittier. I wish that tour never happened.

MechanicalAnimal
08-04-2013, 05:04 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sJUFiVGuDgI was bored today and decided to look back at old videos and the 2008 tour when twiggy came back to bass was amazing. 19 songs. Energy. A good setlist.
Im wondering what went wrong. 2009 only a year later and they are playing 14 songs with smaller crowds? And practically no stage show. What went wrong? Watching the 2009 rock am ring performance makes me mad. They played sweet dreams and skipped the solo. WOW sounded like complete shit live. Armageddon was even shittier. I wish that tour never happened.

I agree. Everyone says accept it, he usually plays short sets, BUT:

A lot of the DTTW shows were 16-18+ songs (not towards the end, though. I guess they got tired.)
MA/RIS shows were 15+17 songs (at least the shows I have.)
GGG shows sometimes went over 19-20 songs!
LWF was 19 songs.

And as mentioned above, when Twiggy returned it was around 19 songs. 13 songs is WAY too short for $50 a ticket, especially when some shows on this past summer tour were even more! Of course I went, but still. And when Twiggy came back, everything in the setlist wasn't an overplayed single. Thank God he's been switching it up now, but why he doesn't still play "The Reflecting God" is beyond me. I think that's the strongest opener, ever.

Zsa Zsa
08-04-2013, 06:11 PM
I think of it as Twiggy lit a fire under his ass to start putting more effort into the performances.

The Hey, Cruel World tour was a giant step up from the 2009 tour performance-wise, but it still couldn't touch seeing a show in 2008. I still believe that somehow 1999/2000 Manson somehow time traveled and did those shows. Vocally, it just doesn't make sense how he could go from mediocre (2007) to amazing (2008) to mediocre (2009) within such a short period. The 2013 shows I went to, however, were some of the best he could have sounded post-2009. It's just too bad that 2000 Manson didn't time travel again.

Alterkaker66
08-04-2013, 06:41 PM
Hmmm..... Maybe whiskey and speed (or coke) vs Absinthe and weed?

MechanicalAnimal
08-04-2013, 06:44 PM
I was about to say, maybe it's more a matter of substance abuse as opposed to skill or effort.

0m3ga
08-04-2013, 09:06 PM
I agree. Everyone says accept it, he usually plays short sets, BUT:

A lot of the DTTW shows were 16-18+ songs (not towards the end, though. I guess they got tired.)
MA/RIS shows were 15+17 songs (at least the shows I have.)
GGG shows sometimes went over 19-20 songs!
LWF was 19 songs.

And as mentioned above, when Twiggy returned it was around 19 songs. 13 songs is WAY too short for $50 a ticket, especially when some shows on this past summer tour were even more! Of course I went, but still. And when Twiggy came back, everything in the setlist wasn't an overplayed single. Thank God he's been switching it up now, but why he doesn't still play "The Reflecting God" is beyond me. I think that's the strongest opener, ever.

I'm blown away by his voice in that show - it doesn't even make sense.

Cringeon
08-05-2013, 06:02 AM
Majority of touring has been on co-headlining runs, but from all aspects these shows have been way better than any I saw during EMDM-THEOL. I do think it's interesting that people who've been seeing MM live for years and have gone to these shows have called it one of the best tours since Holywood. It's not always about the paper statistics of a show, but the energy of the show when you get there. I've seen horribly boring shows where bands play for 2hours, and I've also seen 30min sets that blew my mind.

Charles2012
08-05-2013, 06:17 AM
Label.

Labels cover money for stage production, over curfew sets and bigger venues. Joining Cooking Vinyl means the band had to rebuild a band budget and work their way back up. When down for Australia, Manson demanded small venues with barriers brought up close to increase intimacy, in my honest opinion that is far better than bigger shows.

Tater
08-05-2013, 06:32 AM
Label.

Labels cover money for stage production, over curfew sets and bigger venues. Joining Cooking Vinyl means the band had to rebuild a band budget and work their way back up. When down for Australia, Manson demanded small venues with barriers brought up close to increase intimacy, in my honest opinion that is far better than bigger shows.

There's someone making sense. Man the lifeboats.

Shangri-LIE
08-05-2013, 07:40 AM
Drinking. Being disenamored by two women that he surgically stitched his heart to within a short period of time. Not knowing what direction his career was going in. The fact that yes, Manson is getting a bit older. Putting on a strong performance every night requires that you have the mental and physical aptitude to come through solid. Manson is a very moody person. He's a very inconsistent person. Those are not put downs, that is just what we know about him. It's hit or miss. It always has been. As for the number of songs that he plays on a co-headlining tour, I am not buying the whole "time restriction" justification. Manson plays 11 songs, cooper plays almost 20. I think one show Coop played 22 songs? When you're an artist of 25 years with the discography that Manson has, there is no excuse to play only 11 songs, mostly the greatest hits, and also with no respect for the audience. But hey "It's Manson", he can do whatever he wants because "He's Manson". No, that shit doesn't fly. People travel and pay a lot of money to see a show. They don't go to a show in hopes that maybe he actually feels like performing based on how he is feeling. Now, I can say that the last 6 months of this tour were great. He seemed to have a fire that was missing for a long time and he was having fun with the songs. You have to also remember that playing the same fucking songs for as long as he has can make a person become jaded. Again, it's never going to change. There IS NOT REAL TIME TRAVEL and we're not going to re-live the good ol days. Go to the shows for your own reasons. Go to have fun. Go to meet people. Go to just say you went to another MM concert.

Zsa Zsa
08-05-2013, 01:44 PM
Drinking. Being disenamored by two women that he surgically stitched his heart to within a short period of time. Not knowing what direction his career was going in. The fact that yes, Manson is getting a bit older. Putting on a strong performance every night requires that you have the mental and physical aptitude to come through solid. Manson is a very moody person. He's a very inconsistent person. Those are not put downs, that is just what we know about him. It's hit or miss. It always has been. As for the number of songs that he plays on a co-headlining tour, I am not buying the whole "time restriction" justification. Manson plays 11 songs, cooper plays almost 20. I think one show Coop played 22 songs? When you're an artist of 25 years with the discography that Manson has, there is no excuse to play only 11 songs, mostly the greatest hits, and also with no respect for the audience. But hey "It's Manson", he can do whatever he wants because "He's Manson". No, that shit doesn't fly. People travel and pay a lot of money to see a show. They don't go to a show in hopes that maybe he actually feels like performing based on how he is feeling. Now, I can say that the last 6 months of this tour were great. He seemed to have a fire that was missing for a long time and he was having fun with the songs. You have to also remember that playing the same fucking songs for as long as he has can make a person become jaded. Again, it's never going to change. There IS NOT REAL TIME TRAVEL and we're not going to re-live the good ol days. Go to the shows for your own reasons. Go to have fun. Go to meet people. Go to just say you went to another MM concert.

I went for Angel With The Scabbed Wings, and I was not disappointed. I went to the Twins of Evil show (and the January 2013 show) for King Kill 33, and I was not disappointed.

I think going to a show for only one song makes the shows better, in all honesty.

TH15x15xMYxOMeGA
08-05-2013, 02:33 PM
2009=alcohol.

I think the last tour was great though. Yeah, they played all the hits, but they always had an interesting and energetic opener, went all out every night, and were just really into it. They also added some songs they hadn't played in a while like King Kill 33, Disassociative, Angel With the Scabbed Wings, Great Big White World, Last Day On Earth for a few shows at the end of 2012, and brought back some great props that we all love to see (pope costume, stilts, big/medium sized chair haha, and the podium). We all have to face that the Man is older now. He's been roughing up his vocal chords for years and maybe he just can't hold out for 20+ songs a night. I'd rather have 13 quality songs anyway instead of 13 quality songs and then 7 of Manson going half ass because his voice just can't take it. I thought the effort on this tour was definitely there, and Manson was very social with the fans. Most of us huge fans got to meet Manson (and some got to meet Twiggy too) at least once! Most of us couldn't even dream of that happening. I am very satisfied with the past tour and I loved the band's energy and commitment. I got to make it to 5 shows on this tour without ever having to travel too far. Tour successful.

DecayingSinner
08-05-2013, 03:14 PM
I actually thought all of his tours (with the exception of THEOL tour), were pretty damn good. Yea, the setlists have shortened in length since the second leg during 2008 and will never be the length of say, NIN, but are still worth going to. As said earlier, I mainly went to see Angel with the scabbed wings, and to the ToE tour for Hey Cruel World, King Kill, and the love song. I went into these shows knowing it was a co-headlining event. For his solo headlining shows, it does seem like you are not getting your money's worth to only see 13 songs.

M Tragedy666
08-05-2013, 03:54 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sJUFiVGuDgI was bored today and decided to look back at old videos and the 2008 tour when twiggy came back to bass was amazing. 19 songs. Energy. A good setlist.
Im wondering what went wrong. 2009 only a year later and they are playing 14 songs with smaller crowds? And practically no stage show. What went wrong? Watching the 2009 rock am ring performance makes me mad. They played sweet dreams and skipped the solo. WOW sounded like complete shit live. Armageddon was even shittier. I wish that tour never happened.

I have not watched the entire video of the link you provided. Actually, I'm only in the first song. And it's fucking amazing! Thanks for posting it! But, aside from props/stage show, whatever... If we are talking specifically about vocals, there seems to be a bit of distortion or some other effect on his voice. I didn't notice ANY distortion on the vocals from any the tours I went to from THEOL or BV. I'm not sure why the switch. Can anyone else tell though? Is that some sort of vocal effect? There is definitely some kind of effect on his voice on the Guns God and Government dvd, that also wasn't present on Dead To The World or Last Tour On Earth....

I think his voice sounds a lot better with some mild distortion. Just kind of thickens it up a bit and sounds a bit cooler.

ALSO, has anyone noticed he no longer wears in ear monitors? Look back at any other period, especially Golden Age of Grotesque, where he switch to BRIGHT ORANGE IEMS. For whatever reason, he no longer is protection his ear drums and his hearing. Maybe things sound more muffled to him, and the difference in clarity changes his perception of his voice or changes his singing style. If you can't hear yourself, you can't possibly sound as good.

EDIT

LOL at the fact that people were saying he was getting kind of fat at around this time!!!

Cringeon
08-05-2013, 04:27 PM
I'm pretty sure MM kicked IEMs around EMDM, but could be wrong. I think MM actually use to use a lot more effects live (besides the megaphone lol), most DTTW shows seem to have a lot of distortion on the voice, but I notice it on GGG. When you throw really heavy compression/distortion on vocals, it really evens out the vocals - but gives the false impression of loudness because the vocals are all squashed any how. MM really seems to use very little live (some verb/delay is all I can notice) but one thing for sure is the guy still packs a punch volume wise. Youtube videos tend to sound like shit, but even at a club - what you are hearing through the PA isn't the full story. I bet a lot of people who are upfront or have had MM in their face while he's singing can talk about how loud the fucker still is :P

M Tragedy666
08-05-2013, 04:54 PM
GGG dvd had some kind of distortion that I've been trying to find for years. It seems to have this strange effect that makes it sound like your screaming/screeching, even when you may not be trying too hard. Some people aren't into it because...they think is some kind of lie or something and they want reality, but in truth it seems to be a good way to protect your voice. GGG dvd is SO heavy. Like he was screaming a LOT of the lyrics. When I was younger and long before playing in the local music scene, I had no idea and thought it was real. But now, it seems obvious that the distortion was making it REALLY easy to scream and sound good. Probably a great tool if you are having an off night or a sore throat or something and you can still sound great with it.

Anyway, again, I wonder why he's not using it anymore. Like he's really trying to strip down all the tricks/props/stageshow/effects or something. And again about the IEMs, that really could be a HUGE factor in why he may sound different as well. I'd love to know why he decided to have them and not have them.

In the end, I just simply think he doesn't care as much as he used to. Whether you fault him for that or not is your own business. But I don't care that he was saying that he felt rejuvenated and BV was his comeback album and yada yada yada. When all is said and done, he really just doesn't care to give his all anymore. I don't know. Maybe he takes his celebrity for granted or something now. And I'm not ripping on the guy. Just making a personal observation. I truly feel like half the time he just really doesn't want to be doing this anymore. But, it's all he knows. It's what pays the bills. And he's a true artist at heart. So whether he gets sick and tired of the rockstar shit or not, he comes back to it. He's been doing it for 25 years and it's the career of his choice (and probably the only job that he could really get away with half the shit he says and does without getting arrested or fired). It's really as simple as that. He's good at what he does, and I have no doubt that he will continue to crank out some good songs for years and years to come. But he's just not the same man that he was in the 90s, or in the early 2000s. Don't forget that he was ready to quit and retire around 2004 with Lest We Forget. It stated right there in black and white in Doppelherz that TGAOG was intended to be his last and final work, and it was the beginning of him questioning if he'd "outgrown his spotlight?". Whatever we got from him after that album was a gift in my mind. He's an extremely talented, slightly crazy, genius. And his art is very important to me, and the world. But he has said it himself in recent interviews... that he is no longer cynical. And it's important to recognize that his cynicism was a very important and crucial factor of his music throughout the 90s. It's the reason most of us got hooked to begin with. So, really, he's pretty much giving up the whole point of why Marilyn Manson was around to begin with. To challenge and question morality, the rules, and authority. He changed in a lot of ways, but he IS still the same man, and that's why we occasionally get a glimpse of that old Manson with songs like Arma...Geddon and We're From America. But for the most part, he's just done with that type of journalism. I think he still wants to make music, but he's having a hard type finding out how to drop and retire his "Antichrist" gimmick. Maybe he just wants to chill and smoke grass and play some small club shows once in awhile.

edit

but maybe im crazy. it's very possible. my mind is not in the right place right now. I've had some shitty things happen recently and am really out of it. I may actually read this tomorrow and disagree with the whole damn thing.

Alterkaker66
08-05-2013, 06:05 PM
[QUOTE=M Tragedy666;158599]
" Whatever we got from him after that album was a gift in my mind. He's an extremely talented, slightly crazy, genius. And his art is very important to me, and the world. "

It's both a priveledge and a source of sadness to grow up with your favorite artists- or at least to watch them grow up. I still love the raw intensity that Manson and a lot of other bands/musicians started out with. But that's the nature of youth, isn't it? Some artists grow into their talent and refine what they started with. Others acquire different influences and change all out of recognition. The best of them all, in my opinion, do what they damn well please start to finish no matter how unsellable or "unlike" them it may be. Manson is a man with a lot of very public insecurites and issues. But isn't that why he, and his music, continues to fascinate?

MechanicalAnimal
08-05-2013, 10:00 PM
Yea, I agree, he is getting older, and I accept that. Everyone does (grows old/older). I just appreciate the fact that he is still around and enjoy it for what it is. As far as the records, he isn't the same young, pissed off and bitter individual he used to be, and I also accept that. He is more of a philosopher now. No matter what, I will never stop going to see him, as I love him too much.

M Tragedy666
08-06-2013, 01:07 AM
^^ I'd say he's less of a philosopher now.

The Empirical Guy
08-06-2013, 02:24 AM
I bet a lot of people who are upfront or have had MM in their face while he's singing can talk about how loud the fucker still is :P

Testify!

MechanicalAnimal
08-06-2013, 12:25 PM
^^ I'd say he's less of a philosopher now.

Yea, I know what you mean. I guess I just meant he isn't really the angry rockstar doing whatever it takes to piss everyone off now and is really able to branch out and do things he probably wouldn't have dared do back in the day, like popular television shows with comedic approaches, and things years ago he probably would have considered selling out, and approaches things more calmly, although yes, he has always done what he wants without regard to popular opinion.

And yes, he is still very loud! :)

LOVEANDZOMBIES
08-20-2014, 04:59 PM
His downfall really hit me when he was a guest on Talking Dead. That was brutal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBaCiq8rAjg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmVixNjLWHs

NightChameleons
08-20-2014, 08:48 PM
It's weird because I'm probably more critical of Manson than many here (even going so far as to have a post removed for comparing his appearance to the Pillsbury Doughboy), but I don't get the Talking Dead Thing. I thought he sounded fine. He rambled a bit and dominated the conversation, but all of his points were lucid and actually quite analytical. He brought a layer of depth to the show that other guests often don't and provided an interesting analysis of some of the symbols, like the hat, etc. I'm just not seeing the trainwreck here others seem to see.

FuckmanQ
08-20-2014, 09:39 PM
It's because if you know anything about Manson is he likes to go on major tangents. The Talking Dead is not some analytical show, it's a show designed to hype the next episode. People give short talking points and it bounces back and forth till the show is done. Manson went on thinking it was more than that. In a way he is a bit at fault for not even considering what the format of the shitty show is. However I commend him for trying his best to show what he thinks about TWD in general and not just that nights episode.

iggy
08-20-2014, 09:43 PM
Well, using Rock am Ring as an example is silly, his festival shows have just been god awful for at least a decade. It's just a paycheck to him, an excuse for him to get intoxicated and party with shitty bands. He just couldn't possibly give a fuck. His smaller headlining tours have always been better. I honestly think the decline started with Twiggy's departure, and hit it's low point after his split with ERW. The tours supporting BV were good though, and he only seems to be getting better!


(He came accross as a drunken bloated douche on The Talking dead. )

NapalmHeart
08-20-2014, 09:56 PM
I don't get the Talking Dead thing either. It's a shitty hype show, Manson should have known better, yes, but his appearance per se wasn't bad.

Festival shows always "suck" because of many reasons. First of all, Manson isn't a festival band. Festival people wanna party and be in a good mood, they love bands who yell "Now everybody jump and clap woohoooo!". Manson doesn't do that. Also, the sound, set times, production, lighting, audience, etc. are fucking shitty.

I've just seen Manson in Vienna and Prague, both solo shows, Vienna was outdoors, Prage indoors, and while the performances were probably equally great, I enjoyed Prague a thousand times more. It's just more intimate.

I love seeing Manson on stage, he's one of a kind, but I do get why some people don't get it. You have to be there to understand how his shows work.

There have been ups and downs to his career, but that's just honest and reflects his personal life. I'm fine with that. I'd rather him admit he was fucked up for a period of time than him putting on an act. He is who he is.

The song No Reflection says it best. I don't know which me that I love, I've got no reflection. That's him looking back, just like we're looking back.

blue angel
08-21-2014, 12:36 AM
I liked seeing him and hearing what he had to say on The Talking Dead.

NightChameleons
08-21-2014, 06:12 AM
I agree with Howard Stern's comments - I thought it was hilarious that he hijacked TTD and made it his bitch.