PDA

View Full Version : I hear the afterlife is poorly scored



me_andre
05-18-2014, 12:01 PM
Sad to hear. At the same time, and this is a philosophical thing, not a mean nor an egosentrical thing... Why is it that we all often turn into some sort of small-talkers when death has struck? A painfull thought, not a cynical one... Death is natural and we will all die, so will everyone we will ever love. Why is it that we feel bad in a situation like this? The woman were old and had suffered for years and years, she didn't even know her son at this point. Isn't it just good that she passed, so she didn't have to keep on living a lifeless life full of decay? And why is it that, like Manson for instance who have been obsessing about death since at least the start of him becoming known, why does this make him say "I hope I'll see you again"? Hence the small-talk. It seems everyone on this earth are so afraid to talk about, feeling and thinking about death when it comes down to it -that we end up not being really precent whilst reacting to it. When did Manson start to hope for an afterlife? Or accept the lack of logic when it comes to life after death. What kind of afterlife? Heaven? It really frustrates me that we can never thouch death. Yet it's always here with us and it's taboo. I hope Manson does okay, and he seems to aswell, based on his status... But he should be glad, for finally after so many years she's not suffering anymore, and he got a closure by her dying for real. And it should be allowed to think these thoughts, because time is relative and death is here waiting for me and you, now. It doesn't really matter if it's a year or eighty years from now, we are nothing but a cosmic microsecond. Nothing points in the directions of an afterlife. The only hope we can have is that conscousness actually matters, and that the dmt released when we die transports out "soul" into another dimention. But, it wouldn't surprise me if that death-trip is just the computer shutting down. I'm not depressed or crazy, I just want us all to think about death for real and be honest, emotional and present about it. Wouldn't it deserve such respect from everyone?

Penance Sentence
05-18-2014, 12:30 PM
Sad to hear. At the same time, and this is a philosophical thing, not a mean nor an egosentrical thing... Why is it that we all often turn into some sort of small-talkers when death has struck? A painfull thought, not a cynical one... Death is natural and we will all die, so will everyone we will ever love. Why is it that we feel bad in a situation like this? The woman were old and had suffered for years and years, she didn't even know her son at this point. Isn't it just good that she passed, so she didn't have to keep on living a lifeless life full of decay? And why is it that, like Manson for instance who have been obsessing about death since at least the start of him becoming known, why does this make him say "I hope I'll see you again"? Hence the small-talk. It seems everyone on this earth are so afraid to talk about, feeling and thinking about death when it comes down to it -that we end up not being really precent whilst reacting to it. When did Manson start to hope for an afterlife? Or accept the lack of logic when it comes to life after death. What kind of afterlife? Heaven? It really frustrates me that we can never thouch death. Yet it's always here with us and it's taboo. I hope Manson does okay, and he seems to aswell, based on his status... But he should be glad, for finally after so many years she's not suffering anymore, and he got a closure by her dying for real. And it should be allowed to think these thoughts, because time is relative and death is here waiting for me and you, now. It doesn't really matter if it's a year or eighty years from now, we are nothing but a cosmic microsecond. Nothing points in the directions of an afterlife. The only hope we can have is that conscousness actually matters, and that the dmt released when we die transports out "soul" into another dimention. But, it wouldn't surprise me if that death-trip is just the computer shutting down. I'm not depressed or crazy, I just want us all to think about death for real and be honest, emotional and present about it. Wouldn't it deserve such respect from everyone?

Just because he says "I hope to see you again," doesn't mean it's necessarily referring to an afterlife. I don't like when people think they understand what someone is saying. There are a myriad of ways to interpret something. Just because we can think of something that makes us feel uncomfortable to accept as the first interpretation, doesn't mean it's the right interpretation.

EvilDead
05-18-2014, 09:41 PM
Sustaining her memory is about as much as an afterlife there can be. .


explain to me what you meant by that... horrible way to look at life


I don't understand people who think this way... how does anyone really know unless you die? I have had a few experiences in my life to know there must be something. I am not a religious person but there has to be something after we go. Our relationships now with the ones we loved must mean something after we pass. The thought of never seeing my twin brother again if one of us died is a pretty horrible thought. When I look into my little guys eyes and he is beside me at night tells me there is something more out there. My wife and our family is enough proof for me beside the things I have heard and seen.

Manson will see her again when is gone from his physical body. That much I know is true.

Whisky And Speed
05-19-2014, 02:41 AM
explain to me what you meant by that... horrible way to look at life


I don't understand people who think this way... how does anyone really know unless you die? I have had a few experiences in my life to know there must be something. I am not a religious person but there has to be something after we go. Our relationships now with the ones we loved must mean something after we pass. The thought of never seeing my twin brother again if one of us died is a pretty horrible thought. When I look into my little guys eyes and he is beside me at night tells me there is something more out there. My wife and our family is enough proof for me beside the things I have heard and seen.

Manson will see her again when is gone from his physical body. That much I know is true.

Whether there is an afterlife or not and most probably not, the memory of the people we love and dear to us is a kind of relief and IT IS IMPORTANT to our psychiatric health. People from the dawn of humanity done so regardless of religion or belief in the after life or lack thereof. Most people in Japan and china don't believe in God and yet, they remember their beloved ones frequently even if they don't believe in heaven or hell. I agree with Emma, these are emotional words directly from the heart and from the heat of the moment without over thinking.

thousand_kisses
05-19-2014, 05:46 AM
aaaand.....if it happened that he *does* believe in an afterlife.....this affects your life how???

me_andre
05-19-2014, 06:19 AM
It would change the way I look on Manson , but what I wrote was more about death itself. And logos. I respect logos like hell and get sick when people ignore it, not that I don't respect pathos, but unless we can find any sort of reason to believe in an afterlie it would be unrational to do so. And if Manson believe in an afterlife it would change the philosophical taste he as a symbol feed my braintoung, for sure.

Maybe I'm a little bit on the autistic spectrum, or lack a sense of empathy, but since I don't know Manson and because what got me involved into being a fan was Manson' 100% of not doing any compromises and also the symbolical and idealistic, antihero-artist-demigod-image which have been larger than life for over 15 years now, it's hard for me to stop thinking in philosophical, spiritual or creative terms when he officially presents information. If he would give up on his ego and his fundementally questioning personality -and start beliving in an afterlife, then I think I would lose some respect for him. That or I would start to wonder what I was missing out on.

Still, it's sad that people die. And it feels unfair. It's a constant pain that won't ever really let go. (I think that's why people turn christian, because they can't handel the truth.) Personally I stopped getting shocks when people die, because since we are all going to die it feels like we are already dead, in some sense. Memento mori-esque without the religious connotations.

Maybe I would break down if family or close friends get a heart attack right next to me out of the blue, but when talking about old people with dementia it's not like it's a surprise, or "unnatural". (Not to say that anything can be un-natural.) I think if I was Manson right now I would finally get a closure I had been waiting for for years. It's like if your kids are kidnapped and you haven't heard anything for years and years... It's better to finally know they're dead, so that the tiny, little, painfully, unrealitic hope of them coming back alive disappair.

Cringeon
05-19-2014, 06:46 AM
This is not a debate over personal beliefs, take it to another thread if you want to debate such things. Trying to analyze a grieving son's words because it might change your opinion is your own problem.

Shock Hazard
05-19-2014, 08:23 AM
explain to me what you meant by that... horrible way to look at life


I don't understand people who think this way... how does anyone really know unless you die? I have had a few experiences in my life to know there must be something. I am not a religious person but there has to be something after we go. Our relationships now with the ones we loved must mean something after we pass. The thought of never seeing my twin brother again if one of us died is a pretty horrible thought. When I look into my little guys eyes and he is beside me at night tells me there is something more out there. My wife and our family is enough proof for me beside the things I have heard and seen.

Manson will see her again when is gone from his physical body. That much I know is true.


Yeah, fuck keeping people in our thoughts and memories and living every day like it's your last. Let's just assume there's an afterlife and piss away each day. In short, we have no good evidence of an afterlife and an abundance of evidence that the mind stops working after the brain is dead. Sorry, wishful thinking is not my sort of game.


Anyway, I apologize for opening a can of worms here. I'm done now. If you wish to talk more about this, we can bring the discussion elsewhere.

Cringeon
05-19-2014, 08:37 AM
*split discussion*

BreakingYourMomsOldMound
05-19-2014, 02:54 PM
...how does anyone really know unless you die?




Manson will see her again when is gone from his physical body. That much I know is true.

It looks like you're contradicting yourself here. (Unless, of course, you've died, experienced an afterlife and been resuscitated.)

mgwxta19
05-19-2014, 04:11 PM
...these are emotional words directly from the heart and from the heat of the moment without over thinking.

Exactly. And that's what I've always loved, admired, and respected about this man.

If you must get philosophical (a natural human tendency), I offer a quote from a man (who's up in heaven now - heh) whom Marilyn Manson cited as a main inspiration when writing his (sadly still under-wraps) novel Holy Wood:

"Well, there's a wonderful quotation from Nietzsche. Nietzsche said, `Only a person of deep faith can afford the luxury . . . of skepticism!' That something perfectly wonderful is going on, I do not doubt. But the explanations I hear . . . do not satisfy me." - Kurt Vonnegut

I've lost four people I loved within the past two years. Three of them happened in the space of a month.

It's rough. My heart goes out to this guy who has helped me in getting through this thing we call life - whatever it is.

Whisky And Speed
05-19-2014, 05:16 PM
Maybe I would break down if family or close friends get a heart attack right next to me out of the blue, but when talking about old people with dementia it's not like it's a surprise, or "unnatural". (Not to say that anything can be un-natural.) I think if I was Manson right now I would finally get a closure I had been waiting for for years. It's like if your kids are kidnapped and you haven't heard anything for years and years... It's better to finally know they're dead, so that the tiny, little, painfully, unrealitic hope of them coming back alive disappair.


I hope Manson does okay, and he seems to aswell, based on his status... But he should be glad, for finally after so many years she's not suffering anymore, and he got a closure by her dying for real. And it should be allowed to think these thoughts, because time is relative and death is here waiting for me and you, now. It doesn't really matter if it's a year or eighty years from now, we are nothing but a cosmic microsecond.

Loss itself is painful and Manson talked about it in his album THEOL. To you she was an old woman with dementia and she was suffering and her death caused comfort to her and to Manson. Well, I don't blame you she was a stranger you don't know.But for Manson, it is about childhood memories and the laughter and the tears and the good times and the bad times he had with his mother that gave him a lot of unconditional love. The pain of loss itself is the problem with death and I don't know whether it is the reason people believe in an afterlife of not, IDK. Manson didn't get the closure you talk about maybe because of what I said about loss. Maybe you didn't experience loss yet, it is about the memories that haunts you in the beginning and then days make it better and it fades with time. However, the feeling of love never fades away. I'm commenting about this part because it is weird that you wonder how a person would mourn a dead one. Well, we are animals but our consciousness is more sophisticated than the other ranks of animal kingdom and that leads us to have more sympathy and more EMOTIONS than the rest. Trust me dogs and cats mourn and feel the loss too, it is in any living being's makeup. I experienced loss many times. The shock itself and seeing the dead body in front of you and knowing that you won't be with that person again is the trigger for mourning. Sorry to say that for you as respect is your due and I respect most people here, you are a little bit on the autistic spectrum, or lack a sense of empathy. When someone's dear to you is lost or even an animal, it is not a gadget that won't work and I would throw in the bin and I will feel sorry for the gadget for a day or so. Death even for the non believers is an overwhelming situation that needs a lot of mind and soul searching after it and most importantly relief. What I was trying to say to you that it is not that easy knowing that you have lost someone and you will never ever see him again. I don't know about Manson's current personal beliefs but he is totally free to believe in what is comforting or pleasing to him even if it was voodoo. Keeping an open mind and a free spirit and relaxing our grip on our favorite artists is a good thing. If I knew someday that Manson has converted to even Islam I won't give a shit IF he doesn't preach it all the time or shove it under out throats. Manson's message was about be yourself, think for yourself , find your own will and follow it. This is pretty much like Alister Crowley's words.

If my words are just a gibberish nonsense to anybody here I urge them to ignore it and to act like mature adults who can have a proper, civilized discussion.

me_andre
05-19-2014, 06:23 PM
Loss itself is painful and Manson talked about it in his album THEOL. To you she was an old woman with dementia and she was suffering and her death caused comfort to her and to Manson. Well, I don't blame you she was a stranger you don't know.But for Manson, it is about childhood memories and the laughter and the tears and the good times and the bad times he had with his mother that gave him a lot of unconditional love. The pain of loss itself is the problem with death and I don't know whether it is the reason people believe in an afterlife of not, IDK. Manson didn't get the closure you talk about maybe because of what I said about loss. Maybe you didn't experience loss yet, it is about the memories that haunts you in the beginning and then days make it better and it fades with time. However, the feeling of love never fades away. I'm commenting about this part because it is weird that you wonder how a person would mourn a dead one. Well, we are animals but our consciousness is more sophisticated than the other ranks of animal kingdom and that leads us to have more sympathy and more EMOTIONS than the rest. Trust me dogs and cats mourn and feel the loss too, it is in any living being's makeup. I experienced loss many times. The shock itself and seeing the dead body in front of you and knowing that you won't be with that person again is the trigger for mourning. Sorry to say that for you as respect is your due and I respect most people here, you are a little bit on the autistic spectrum, or lack a sense of empathy. When someone's dear to you is lost or even an animal, it is not a gadget that won't work and I would throw in the bin and I will feel sorry for the gadget for a day or so. Death even for the non believers is an overwhelming situation that needs a lot of mind and soul searching after it and most importantly relief. What I was trying to say to you that it is not that easy knowing that you have lost someone and you will never ever see him again. I don't know about Manson's current personal beliefs but he is totally free to believe in what is comforting or pleasing to him even if it was voodoo. Keeping an open mind and a free spirit and relaxing our grip on our favorite artists is a good thing. If I knew someday that Manson has converted to even Islam I won't give a shit IF he doesn't preach it all the time or shove it under out throats. Manson's message was about be yourself, think for yourself , find your own will and follow it. This is pretty much like Alister Crowley's words.

If my words are just a gibberish nonsense to anybody here I urge them to ignore it and to act like mature adults who can have a proper, civilized discussion.

I like how you wrote that with such passion. I felt conected to the words. Still, I don't know what to say about experiencing loss. It's so relative! I mean, when I was around five, my dog died, and that dog felt like it was my best friend in the whole world. When it died I got really, really angry at my parents and at life, because it felt so unfair and I thought it were in someones control. Later on I guess I really understood death a few years later when I dreamt of my grandfather dying, and I got the emotional reaction of loss the next day, and felt that I should appreciate him more (he was always very dominant, being a cop and all, and I didn't like that), but still it really got to me that he was a real human being and that one day he would be gone, it made me cry. Then, one night when I was trying to sleep, I got one of my first panick attacks understanding that me and everyone I know are going to die, and that life is pointless to the core. Now I'm 26 and my grandfather has been dead for years. When he died he had been suffering from a brain tumor and a post operational brain damage for years. When I met him the last times before he died he was 100% oblivious of anything, much like a zombie. (Reminds me of dementia because my grandmother have that now, combined with scitzofrenia...) When he died, at least I got that sense of closure I talked about earlier, the feeling that now it was finally over... His pain, and also my pain of knowing he could die any moment whilst somehow being dead already. However, the feeling of sorrow when someone dies seems to be almost gone in me now. In a way where I feel like 10% of that pain every day, instead of getting the 100% when it actually happens. Maybe my brain did this to me to stop some sort of hyper-sensitiveness, I don't know.

Still, when we talk about an afterlife... What logical thought makes room for an afterlife in 2014? The only thing I find potentially hopefully possible is that DMT release when we die and that maybe it's a bridge to another dimension, or like in 'Enter the Void' of Gaspar No, where it's circular as in the tibetan book of the dead. But wouldn't the souls take up to much mass at one point? And why can you take part of the brain out and the person, still alive, just can't do or think certain things? (I don't know which parts but say you took out a part of the pre frontal cortex and the person could do anything like before except processing complex information or use stuctures like numbers.) Even dementia or a tumor could make this question on their own, if there are some sort of soul, then how can a physical sickness take away different parts of that said soul?

I agree with the quote over here, about life being magical, but couldn't love, intoxication, art, self expressionism and other part of life be magical enough? Just... books!? And science? Just watch a show like Cosmos, or take some lsd and think about dna, atoms and evolution. You wouldn't even need the acid, but I just wanted to go for an 'extreme' example.

Fair enough about Manson reaction, I don't blame him for potentially being a little bit unrational about his mother dying. It's just a thing I've picked up from almost anyone. And he just wrote "hope", it's just that he have been so extremely rational about this before, like when Gidget Gein died and he didn't say nothing or when Ray Manzarek died and he said "Today was the day that we all face, for an artist and friend, Ray. So lucky I got to share a stage with you. R.I.P. Your music is immortal." Oh, and the themes in a lot of songs, most noticable in "Breaking the Same Old Ground" where he sings "I'm owned by death and I'm in love with oblivion", or when he talked about walking past the dying woman in the car crash, in his book... I just got the impression Manson had simillar problems about death as I do, but that dosn't really matter here, the death of his mother just sent me on the train of thought, it's the thought that matters in this context, the thought and conversation about death in relation to a potential afterlife.

When someone dies it's always "see you in heaven", etc. From a perspective it just seems a bit rude to the person when you can't just write the truth. I can see it being a very emotional thing when it's your mother, of course, but things like this are said all the time, by everyone, even if the one who died is someone they barely knew. There's not many of the "This part of life is horrible, I hate it. I will miss you!" -sort.

Shock Hazard
05-19-2014, 08:08 PM
I've gone through a number of deaths. When my brother died I was pensive and sort of indifferent. Many were angry with the way I expressed myself. I never cried. I wasn't sure how to react. All I knew is that he was gone and that wasn't going to change. I didn't think it was necessary to construct fantasy stories of his eternal happiness. All I could do was live out life the best I can with his memory along side of me. His short lived life still held great value and potential.

Mortality gives life more meaning and strength. You need to work with what you have and what you can get. Immortality tends to bring judgement, suspension and false hopes of rewards. Selfishness becomes the root of sacrifice and altruism. And when does it end? I certainly don't want to live forever. I like being a part of the great cosmic cycle as recycled energy, but not consciously. To know your insignificance in comparison to all is something significant and that's what keeps me spiritually linked with the universe. But you're still significant.

Cat
05-20-2014, 05:20 AM
This remind me of a topic I posted in here a long time ago : http://www.providermodule.com/forum/showthread.php/5166-Scientists-Offer-Quantum-Theory-Of-Soul-s-Existence

I want to share so many thoughts in this topic, but I won't do it inside this forum because I know what will happen if I do.... silence is sometimes golden!

I hope MM will go through this in a strong and healthy way.

Ceratina
05-22-2014, 10:18 PM
I don't understand people who think that if someone is old enough or suffering and then they die, that's it's somehow illogical to mourn and feel awful about it. The bottom line is, you lose someone very dear to you, it's horrible and painful. I remember feeling frustrated with well-meaning friends who tried to comfort me after my 18-year-old cat had to be put down by saying things like "She was old, she was in pain, it was time...". That was true, but it doesn't mean I didn't miss her like anything. I don't see anything but natural in MM being upset at his mother's death, even though she was afflicted with dementia. And, in my opinion, 68 these days is not that old.

fill in the blank
05-25-2014, 08:31 PM
i believe ill never forget

Shangri-LIE
05-31-2014, 01:01 PM
Oh my God! Marilyn Manson might believe in the afterlife! This changes everything! Everything! You fuckin' twits. Let him mourn and shut up.

BlueEyeLens
06-02-2014, 06:55 PM
I think death is a real personal issue when it's someone you've known all your life and for every other person, it is different in how they deal with it.
Can you blame them? No. Someone fucking died. And you were close through this and that.
In 2010 my grandmother passed away with altzheimer's disease. I saw her in her last stages of it in three different retirement homes for a whole year. It had a real profound effect on my mentality, to be quite honest. I mean, have you been to one? Seeing all the people the way they are? So isolated and alienated- think of a camera malfunctioning in a horror film along the lines of HellRaiser 3.

It doesn't get any easier to see all that. Knowing that you could most likely end up like that in the future.
At the present I'm always concerned for my mom's future. Think about families that you have been raised in and what life was like then but putting yourself in her shoes and knowing how rough life really can be. I've got a real redneck family, and also a christian family and among other religions. Rather than go into a lot of details and try to elaborate further on the subject...

I'll just say this: respect comes a long way.

blue angel
06-13-2014, 03:31 PM
I'm not going to argue God and our being, BUT anyone ever alive knows, sees and feels just how small we really are and just how big everything natural truly is. There is obviously something bigger than us and out of our understanding of "each and every moment". All we have in the end at every thought is Hope. That is what I got from what Manson posted, just a little of his true hope.

Two Faced Egg (23)
07-17-2015, 01:23 PM
I really .. ... Rarely .. use the word Believe ... I Believe in Lust after Death. I really do , On July 11th I was with My Two closest Friends , Sippn' Canadian Whisky .. Climbing really high Rock mountains , without any ropes , safety things .. had lots o funnn for sure .. and after it all .. I was thinking about how I was going to Die soon .. I believe in Lust after Death ... in that even when all the Blood drains out from My flesh .. I will still experience Visions .. of Tall Beautiful Ladies taking soapy showers ..and of 23 years old Korean Girls Spanking on Nude 32 year old Red Heads .. endless Loop of Sexual fetishes .. ... for all eternity .. and I am, really , really Dreading it *Siiigh (TwentyThree)

The_Panthian
07-29-2015, 07:39 PM
I said it before and I'll say it again, Listen to the letter, the dead know better!
When people say "I'm a human being" it just pisses me off cause it reminds me of how fucking wretched they are. They lie cheat and steal anything from anyone with no regard and think they are noble people for it on Sunday. There is little to no dignity in calling or referring to yourself as a human being. And as someone who has had far more then his fair share taken from him I know human nature, and have no use for it. So then tell me, how can the afterlife mistreat us any worse than man and this life? If you can't answer this then loss is something you have never known.

Shangri-LIE
08-03-2015, 08:15 AM
I said it before and I'll say it again, Listen to the letter, the dead know better!
When people say "I'm a human being" it just pisses me off cause it reminds me of how fucking wretched they are. They lie cheat and steal anything from anyone with no regard and think they are noble people for it on Sunday. There is little to no dignity in calling or referring to yourself as a human being. And as someone who has had far more then his fair share taken from him I know human nature, and have no use for it. So then tell me, how can the afterlife mistreat us any worse than man and this life? If you can't answer this then loss is something you have never known.

That's assuming that all humans are prenatally predisposed to being "Good" and "Fair" or "Evil" and "Morally Corrupt". I don't believe in Good and Evil. Or even necessarily Good vs. Evil. What most people call "Sin" is what I just call being honest. Living honestly according to your own true nature as a human being. I think the problem is that we have expectations of what a Human Being should be. Or even what an "Afterlife" or "God" is and should be.

While life can thrive not just on Earth, but elsewhere in the Universe, it's chaotic. It's violent. It's unpredictable for the most part. The same goes for people. I don't see people as being an "either or". Our experience(s) are just a series of moments, actions and reactions. If people were inherently good, and the Universe/God were benevolent and fair, then we wouldn't have as many catastrophes as we do and always have. We wouldn't have world wide atrocities, cruelty and imprisonment/enslavement as well as Wars all of the time.