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FeedYourHead
04-30-2015, 11:51 AM
http://www.providermodule.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/TGAOG_Promotional_54.jpg



I know you can't actually see his mouse ears in this photo, but. Was this intentional? Cause holy shit how did I miss this?? Is there a larger version of that photo so I can see if that's a beauty & the beast style rose on the back of the mirror or something else? Was this mirror already discussed back when GOAG first came out?

http://i.imgur.com/jNYs6nJ.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/SVUHbim.jpg?1

S.D.
04-30-2015, 12:08 PM
This shows the mirror in slightly closer detail. From our Gallery (http://www.providermodule.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=10&pid=2526#top_display_media):-


http://www.providermodule.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/TGAOG_Promotional_51.jpg

FeedYourHead
04-30-2015, 12:14 PM
Um. wow. So I'm pretty sure that's a fucking Beauty & the Beast rose on the back. Am I pulling this out of my ass, or does anyone else think this could have been an intentional homage to Beauty & the Beast since this was part of his whole disney/mouse ears thing?

Nemoris Inferioris
05-01-2015, 03:43 AM
I know you can't actually see his mouse ears in this photo, but. Was this intentional? Cause holy shit how did I miss this?? Is there a larger version of that photo so I can see if that's a beauty & the beast style rose on the back of the mirror or something else? Was this mirror already discussed back when GOAG first came out?

http://i.imgur.com/jNYs6nJ.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/SVUHbim.jpg?1

He isn't wearing the Mouse-Ear hat in that photo.


Um. wow. So I'm pretty sure that's a fucking Beauty & the Beast rose on the back. Am I pulling this out of my ass, or does anyone else think this could have been an intentional homage to Beauty & the Beast since this was part of his whole disney/mouse ears thing?

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/51637f33e4b0b470bd20b7ce/t/54ecd5e3e4b0a3ebc2d0cea2/1424807398884/

I can make the connections. I remember Manson citing Beauty & The Beast before. Take it to the thread!

S.D.
05-01-2015, 05:47 AM
I think Disney was generally a big influence on The Golden Age Of Grotesque, which isn't surprising considering the significance it had for Holy Wood.
I've discussed it here a few times, but Manson was keen to point out during Holy Wood that the typography for 'Marilyn Manson' on the album art was inspired by the original Disneyland sign in California. He also described the album as an amusement park people could visit and witness their worst fears, desires, nightmares etc. If you'd like me to source some specific quotes I'd be happy to, they should all be in the Media archive.
There's also his character in The Nobodies video, which has been suggested was based on Maleficent in Sleeping Beauty. He incidentally claimed that Snow White was his favourite Disney princess, around the time he started dating Dita Von Teese, who created a photoshoot based on her. Manson would compare Dita with The Black Dahlia, who he portrayed as 'Snow White' for his portrait series. Consider also that Manson's character for Holy Wood was Adam Kadmon, which may draw parallel with Snow White eating the 'Forbidden Fruit'. Many villains in Disney films have that aspect of The Devil or temptation; Jafar, Ursula, Maleficent, The Queen etc. Interestingly, Snow White And The Seven Dwarves was the highest-grossing film to capitalise on the introduction of sound to 'The Talkies'. It was also the first and only full-length Disney feature film to be released prior to World War II. I've often wondered if the duality between Snow White And The Seven Dwarves and the Merrie Melodies [MM] film Coal Black And De Sebben Dwarves was part of Manson's inspiration for White/Black face during Golden Age.
People have criticised The Golden Age Of Grotesque for relinquishing Manson's more political lyrics, but I think following the events of 9/11 and the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq it did the same thing as Antichrist Superstar, which was to lampoon the relationship between media, entertainment, the government, and totalitarianism. The thing it didn't do (perhaps wisely) was give that a western religious angle, which would arguably have played into the air of xenophobia and anxiety created at the time.
I remember Manson becoming irate when people mistook Marlene Dietrich's statement on artistry (used on his website) for his words. Dietrich (who he referenced visually in his shoots with Helnwein) was someone who vocally and physically opposed the Nazis, eventually fleeing fascism and finding second homes in America and France. Prior to the release of Golden Age, Manson would proclaim "You cannot be a fascist if you are into fashion", which I took to be an ambiguous statement of his feelings about the war.

Anyway, I might be digressing.

The Golden Age Of Grotesque of course, has references to Dumbo, Peter Pan (and perhaps Captain Hook), and Mickey Mouse. I've also considered that the 'monkey' motif throughout has links to The Jungle Book, which for songs like I Wanna Be Like You makes a connection between the Scat rhymes and Big Band music Manson sought to reference. Picture King Louis singing Doll-Dagga Buzz-Buzz Ziggety-Zag, or jiving to Baboon Rape Party. He was also fond of referencing It's A Small World, both in Ka-Boom Ka-Boom, and onstage during The Grotesk Burlesk.
The Beauty And The Beast connection is very plausible, and would certainly reflect (see what I did there) 'Marilyn Manson'.

Sorry, that was a bit of a ramble. If you'd like any of this separated into a specific Disney analysis topic, just ask.

FeedYourHead
05-01-2015, 10:05 AM
Sorry, that was a bit of a ramble. If you'd like any of this separated into a specific Disney analysis topic, just ask.

Um, YES. Yes please.

FeedYourHead
05-01-2015, 12:16 PM
It's also kind of funny/interesting that even to this day, people endlessly argue about whether or not Walt Disney and Marilyn Manson were/are Nazi sympathizers.

What I love most about the idea that the photo of Manson and the mirror could be Beauty & the Beast inspired, is that the whole dichotomy of the name "Marilyn Manson" can actually literally be interpreted as "beauty and the beast."
I was also thinking that maybe he was going for a "through the looking glass" type of thing, but this was well before EMDM and right in the middle of his most Disney-ish phase so I kind of doubt it.
I absolutely loved that during the Rape of the World Tour he had audio clips from the Disney version of Alice in Wonderland playing between songs (although that's probably only because his bff Johnny Depp's version hadn't yet been made).

Two Faced Egg (23)
05-01-2015, 02:27 PM
I am feeling this , something I been saying to People I have met @ Concerts the Last couple of days is 'We live in a Mirror world' - so yea, oh & I also recently 'Sync'd up The Pale Emperor with the film 'Maleficent' - worked quite well , I was Moved by a few scenes , .. Cheers' (23)

FeedYourHead
05-01-2015, 08:32 PM
He was also fond of referencing It's A Small World, both in Ka-Boom Ka-Boom...

Can you explain this please?

S.D.
05-02-2015, 02:48 AM
The Beauty And The Beast connection is very plausible, and would certainly reflect (see what I did there) 'Marilyn Manson'.


What I love most about the idea that the photo of Manson and the mirror could be Beauty & the Beast inspired, is that the whole dichotomy of the name "Marilyn Manson" can actually literally be interpreted as "beauty and the beast."
Yu-huh...




Can you explain this please?
Well the song's full title is It's A Small World (After All), and during Ka-Boom Ka-Boom Manson sings "It's a depraved new world, after all", referencing Aldous Huxley's Brave New World (the title of which is lifted from Shakespeare's The Tempest) and the Sherman Bros. song. One thing that interests me is how the Sherman Bros. wanted It's A Small World to be a song that could be translated or adapted to any language, which is (verbatim) how Manson described Ka-Boom Ka-Boom's title:-

"I have just returned from the studio and we have finished mixing the first track.
I'm not going to reveal the name, but it is an onomatopoeia and it actually means the same thing in every language.
However, it has a specific slang definition that refers to a sexual maneuver I found interesting."
MM 2002 . [I]Gozinta Box (http://www.providermodule.com/journal/?v=j/2002/gozinta_box)

Well, he doesn't confirm that it's Ka-Boom Ka-Boom, but I think it's a fair assumption from that description.

I thought a little about Alice In Wonderland before writing that last post, but besides obviously being an adaptation of the book, I think Manson actually draws far more from Carroll's text than he does Disney (where Alice is concerned). His 'casting' of Evan Rachel Wood during EAT ME, DRINK ME referred heavily to the Sue Lyons Lolita connection, but the very blonde, doe-eyed image of Alice popularised by Disney could also be compared with Wood.

FeedYourHead
05-02-2015, 04:34 AM
Yu-huh...



Ah shit, haha sorry. I was just a little too excited about this Disney topic I think.


Well the song's full title is It's A Small World (After All), and during Ka-Boom Ka-Boom Manson sings "It's a depraved new world, after all", referencing Aldous Huxley's Brave New World (the title of which is lifted from Shakespeare's The Tempest) and the Sherman Bros. song. One thing that interests me is how the Sherman Bros. wanted It's A Small World to be a song that could be translated or adapted to any language, which is (verbatim) how Manson described Ka-Boom Ka-Boom's title:-

"I have just returned from the studio and we have finished mixing the first track.
I'm not going to reveal the name, but it is an onomatopoeia and it actually means the same thing in every language.
However, it has a specific slang definition that refers to a sexual maneuver I found interesting."
MM 2002 . [I]Gozinta Box (http://www.providermodule.com/journal/?v=j/2002/gozinta_box)


Well, he doesn't confirm that it's Ka-Boom Ka-Boom, but I think it's a fair assumption from that description.

That's actually super interesting - definitely makes sense. Now that I see the connection, I think maybe the last verse can be tied in as well?:

"You call it fake,
I call it, good as it gets
Nothing in this world is for real
Except you are for me and
I am so yours
Ka-boom ka-boom"

Nothing in Disneyland or on It's A Small World is real, obviously. I really like the imagining all of the puppets and dolls in the ride singing that last verse; it's kind of haunting.


I thought a little about Alice In Wonderland before writing that last post, but besides obviously being an adaptation of the book, I think Manson actually draws far more from Carroll's text than he does Disney (where Alice is concerned). His 'casting' of Evan Rachel Wood during EAT ME, DRINK ME referred heavily to the Sue Lyons Lolita connection, but the very blonde, doe-eyed image of Alice popularised by Disney could also be compared with Wood.

Yeah, I feel like he identified too strongly with Carroll to have any other aspect be focal or most prominent; the whole thing was very clearly meant to be a parallel between Carroll and Alice/Lolita and Humbert Humbert. I just (naturally) enjoyed that he did bother to include a distinctly Disney element, though I do kind of jokingly but kind of seriously wonder if EMDM were to have happened present day, if he would have chosen clips from Depp's version.

S.D.
05-02-2015, 05:41 AM
I think Manson's interest in Disney is similar to his interest in Christ, and The Bible. If you repeat or copy something enough times, to enough people, it stops being about a person and becomes a concept; "You're just a copy of an imitation".
Walt Disney turned himself - his name - into a commodity and an art form. The rendering of his characters is unique to those pictures, even to the degree that he re-imagined myths and pop icons to fit his own mould. It could also be considered blasphemous, like The Golden Calf parody in Kevin Smith's Dogma, Disney and Mickey Mouse represent false worship, in spite of 'Thou Shalt Have No Other Gods Before Me'. The Bible even described the mouse as 'unclean among the swarming things which swarm on the earth', and yet for Disney it is a modern deity. Perhaps drawing together all these strands, The Bible also refers to the 'Golden Mouse' in frequent passages, which in taxonomy, is a New World breed of fieldmouse. I needn't point out how these descriptions may all have been in Manson's mind during The Golden Age Of Grotesque.

'Marilyn Manson' has achieved the same thing, it was never 'real' in the first place, but the environment and parameters he has created have become more real than perhaps 'Brian Warner' is. Marilyn Manson is a concept as well as a person, it reflects the fears and desires of Western America, just as Disney's heroes and villains reflect the fears and desires of children.
We should consider also, the reasons why he would choose to portray himself in mouse ears. Sure, it reflects Mickey Mouse, whose alliterative name in turn reflects Marilyn Manson. But a mouse is a rodent, carrier of plague, a pest that doesn't know it is a pest, and Disney made that something heroic, an icon for children to identify with. Starting to sound familiar...?*


http://www.providermodule.com/Administrators/S.D./maus.jpg

However, in Mickey's first feature - Fantasia - he can be seen as an antagonist, he works for a Sorcerer [Alchemist?] and even so, defies his master by stealing the hat. The iconography of 'Hat' as source of power is the whole basis of Dope Hat, and much like Willy Wonka, Mickey is more than just a character, it's an idea in people's mind. During the '90s, when parents worried about people dressing like Marilyn Manson, it reminded me of the Mouseketeers, a group that encouraged children to dress as something The Bible considered unclean. I think that underpins why Manson chose the mouse ears for Golden Age.

Also, some people don't know this, but Mickey's original name was Mortimer Mouse, and although it may just be a neat bit of trivia, the name Mortimer derives from ancient translations of 'The Dead Sea'. Given Manson's preoccupation with death, it's worth noting. I also re-read a lot of his Journal entries tracking down that Ka-Boom Ka-Boom quote, and in MARLENE DIETRICH (http://www.providermodule.com/journal/?v=j/2002/marlene_dietrich) he made this statement:-


"I used one of the memoirs of the great and talented, Marlene Dietrich as a bit of an amusement park sign that one might see at night. Will it turn on? Has it ever been on? Do I want it to?"
MM . 2002

He also explored the linguistics of a 'Club' being both a group, and something you can beat people with. Again, possibly coincidences, it's up to the viewer I suppose.



*It seemed derivative, though not improper to note how the Mickey Mouse Club logo also bears similarity to the Swastika as used by Adolf Hitler.

Golden Eel
05-02-2015, 12:53 PM
Simba Only Dreams To Be King

FeedYourHead
05-02-2015, 02:49 PM
Simba Only Dreams To Be King

This is literally the best post on the entire forum.
I'll be back later to respond to S.D.'s post but I wanted it to be known that this post wins at provider moduling.

FeedYourHead
05-09-2015, 03:40 PM
...and yet for Disney it is a modern deity.
This is so true holy shit.


just as Disney's heroes and villains reflect the fears and desires of children.
I'm nitpicking, but I would argue that pre-1990s Disney villains and heroes equally reflected the fears and desires of adults. It wasn't until later on in Disney evolution that they seemingly scrapped the adult/maturity aspect. I think this also goes back to what you said earlier - about how most Disney films are actually adaptations of pre-existing myths and stories, which were not necessarily purposed solely for children. Everybody gets wrapped up in the Disney Princess Fairtytale archetype and mistakenly believes that's a fair representation of Disney narrative, which it is most assuredly not.


However, in Mickey's first feature - Fantasia - he can be seen as an antagonist, he works for a Sorcerer [Alchemist?] and even so, defies his master by stealing the hat. The iconography of 'Hat' as source of power is the whole basis of Dope HatThis fits together so nicely because of Mickey's inability to control or maintain any real authority over the wizard's hat and its power, ultimately creating a situation that threatened to destroy everything, including Mickey himself.

Fail to see the tragic
Turn it into magic
My big top tricks will always make you happy
But we all know the hat is wearing me.

Interestingly, going back to what you said about mice being considered pestilence in the bible, Mickey uses the hat to animate broomsticks. Immediately I find myself thinking of that somewhat iconic image of a startled housewife or maid trying to shoo a mouse out of the kitchen with a broom. Additionally, Mickey animates the broomsticks to carry buckets of water (purification), which turns into a gigantic, uncontrollable flood that he cannot stop - a flood that was essentially created by animated symbols of cleanliness/purification, nearly wiping out the pestilence that failed to adhere to the rules and wishes clearly stated by the ultimate master. (lol Children of Cain anyone?)
Also, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (so appropriately German in this context) who originally authored "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" ("Der Zauberlehrling") has a well-documented interest in the bible, and his works reflect a clear biblical inspiration. "The Sorcerer's Apprentice," in addition to possibly being derived from the story of Noah's Ark, is also pretty obviously another take on the classic 'forbidden fruit' story.

I like the idea of Manson sporting the Mickey ears not only in light of the fact that mice are said to be pestilence in the bible, but also
a) in the sense that he IS a child of Cain
b) as a representation of the Fall of Man


Also, some people don't know this, but Mickey's original name was Mortimer Mouse, and although it may just be a neat bit of trivia, the name Mortimer derives from ancient translations of 'The Dead Sea'.

Ha, Mortimer actually became Mickey Mouse's brother, and one of the first Disney books I had as a child was about Mortimer and his boat.


He also explored the linguistics of a 'Club' being both a group, and something you can beat people with. Again, possibly coincidences, it's up to the viewer I suppose.
Another thing about that song.

"We're a death-marching band
Peter Pan off the wagon
Entertain but never trust anyone sober"

Either a reference to Main Street Electric Parade or Disney's Festival of Fantasy Parade. Imagine how inappropriate it would be for there to be a drunk Peter Pan in either of those parades, and how unnerving it would be from that vantage point - looking out at the faces of all those sober parents and kids (and special people like me who happen to be in their 20s or Fred Sablan) thinking about what total little shits all the kids are and how awful all those parents inevitably are as humans beings. Both of those parades take place on Main Street, USA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Street,_U.S.A.), which is practically just gift wrapping the symbolism there. Main Street, USA is an elaborately built facade - literally in Disney World/land and figuratively everywhere else. Walt Disney always said that he created Main Street, USA out of love for the small town he grew up in as a child. Memories from childhood, especially as pertaining to seemingly idyllic locations are going to be all rosey and unrealistically portray things in a solely positive light, which is what I think Manson was trying to destroy and tear down with those lyrics. By shoehorning the Main Street, USA/Disney-inappropriate imagery (also known as reality) directly into that setting, he's essentially calling out Main Street, USA as a huge fucking lie, which is something he has arguably made a career out of.

gunz
05-09-2015, 07:16 PM
I love this fuckin thread. We actually discussed this in our history class recently and had to watch this short film before we went into a full blown argument with the professor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8fjvfmnMqc

Penance Sentence
06-10-2015, 08:36 PM
Wow, this thread is so interesting!

FeedYourHead
07-15-2015, 10:15 PM
I. Have a question. Is Marilyn Manson going to be in the Pink Elephants on Parade scene in the upcoming Disney live-action remake of Dumbo? Is he going to sing Pink Elephants on Absinthe? Is "Dope Hat" going to be on the soundtrack?
Because Disney is letting Tim Burton direct this new version of Dumbo which means Johnny Depp will be in it which means Manson is probably going to be at least tangentially involved with this abomination of a project and I really hope that he is because that is literally the only chance this movie has of not just completely ruining everything.

edit: lol i posted this out loud last night.

cataract777
07-17-2015, 08:34 PM
I. Have a question. Is Marilyn Manson going to be in the Pink Elephants on Parade scene in the upcoming Disney live-action remake of Dumbo? Is he going to sing Pink Elephants on Absinthe? Is "Dope Hat" going to be on the soundtrack?
Because Disney is letting Tim Burton direct this new version of Dumbo which means Johnny Depp will be in it which means Manson is probably going to be at least tangentially involved with this abomination of a project and I really hope that he is because that is literally the only chance this movie has of not just completely ruining everything.

edit: lol i posted this out loud last night.

Tim Burton is doing "Dumbo"? Christ.

FeedYourHead
07-17-2015, 09:09 PM
Tim Burton is doing "Dumbo"? Christ.

Dude I'm so upset. Disney is absolutely destroying itself by remaking literally every single animated feature film. It's a joke (like Tim Burton) and I don't understand who's responsible for these decisions because it seems counter-intuitive in every possible way.