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arkahno
06-09-2015, 06:54 PM
Do you think there is a concept behinde the fact that Manson is using the lilies of saint joseph during the 2015 coma white performances?
I find this visual pararel very interesting because of the fact that manson is using also some church visuals in this tour.

https://scontent-lax1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/11406949_967507429977637_4562919662707611480_n.jpg ?oh=30879ef814ea981729b25f218d1b58b2&oe=5631673E

http://www.stjoenc.org/images/stjoseph.jpg

http://etc.usf.edu/clipart/82400/82424/82424_lily_joseph_md.gif

Mercurius
06-10-2015, 01:59 AM
Great observation! Unfortunately, I did not find a close-up of the "church glass"- banners he had at Rock on the Range, yet I remember that one showed Mercury's caduceus mixed with the Cross of Lorraine. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Mariahilf_Church_002-2.jpg

Hazekiah
06-10-2015, 03:06 AM
I don't know a lot about St. Joseph, but it's worth noting that this particular, recent staging for the encore "Coma White" seems to most directly echo the staging for "Man That You Fear" on the Dead to the World Tour, where Manson similarly sang into a microphone positioned atop a blossom of funeral lilies, while likewise drenched in blood with soaking-wet bandages hanging from his wrists.

As far as I know so far, that's pretty much the end of it...but I'd LOVE to know more if there's more to be found.

To that end, I suppose it's ALSO worth noting that many believe the virgin Mary's tomb to have been covered in Lilies (thus kickstarting the modern Christian tradition), and that "Coma White" closes the same album wherein Manson himself mentions "Mother Mary" on the opening track, itself something of a direct "sequel" to "Man That You Fear," wherein Manson not only sang with funeral lilies live but also sang to his family in general, especially in the video for the same.

Considering the fact that Manson himself identifies so strongly with Jesus PLUS the fact that his mother passed away so recently, I really don't think the importance of these factors and their timing can be overstated here.

:'(

Penance Sentence
06-10-2015, 02:16 PM
Yeah, it is a nod to Man That You Fear. It is interesting, but I think there is more here than Christian symbolism. This era seems very much inspired by Judaism. I mean, it would make sense. MM is friends with Eli Roth.
The Christian themes here are just re-hashed from his older material.
Keep your eyes peeled for anything Judaism-related.
I know I am.

Mexicanfiend
06-10-2015, 08:22 PM
Aren't those the same type of flowers he used to punish himself during "Great Big White World", as seen on the GGG dvd?

Penance Sentence
06-10-2015, 08:24 PM
Yup, good catch, Fiend.
That's why I said it's re-hashed.

Hazekiah
06-10-2015, 08:50 PM
After the disintegration of his relationship with Rose McGowan, he'd also occasionally change the lyrics for "Great Big White World" to "and the lilies tear our hands all open" in honor of his NEW relationship.

I always thought that was awesome.

I mean, yeah...lilies don't have thorns like roses do, obviously.

But CATS sure have CLAWS.

;)

gunz
06-10-2015, 08:53 PM
I guess it depends on the person how we analyze this. Saint Joseph was Jesus's foster father. I know it sounds fuckin creepy but a lot of female fans look at Manson as that in their life. It goes perfect with the song in trying "to save her from herself". "The staff of Aaron of the house of Levi had blossomed; it brought forth a blossom, sprouted a bud and almonds ripened"(Num 17:23). "The Lord said to Moses, “Put back Aaron’s staff in front of the ark of the covenant law, to be kept as a sign to the rebellious. This will put an end to their grumbling against me, so that they will not die.” 11 Moses did just as the Lord commanded him."(Num 17:10). I wonder if Manson was going making a representation from this area of the Bible..... ( Keep as a sign to the rebellious) but this is just my interpretation of it

Penance Sentence
06-10-2015, 09:21 PM
Yes, very GOOD, gunz.
Think Old Testament.

Penance Sentence
06-10-2015, 09:34 PM
I think people don't understand the Zeus references. This album is really more about paganism of the Greeks, than anything else. The strange thing is, the lack of Christian themes in his music. The Children of Cain was really his last Christian song-inspired.

I think of Caligula, and the spectrum of roman and Greek Gods when I hear this album/see this tour. Sure he still uses some Christian symbols, but IF anything, think Old Testament. Not new.

arkahno
06-11-2015, 10:06 AM
I was looking for more info about lilies and its meaning, there is a story about how the stick Joseph gave to Mary blossomed lilies as a sign from god that he has to be her husband.
The lilies stands for purity and virginity, so I think there's a big meaning behind the fact that the Manson lilies are stained in blood, as a meaning of corrupted purity.

Hazekiah
06-11-2015, 10:18 AM
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/5c/5a/6c/5c5a6ca8bdcaf7936719bfe9a3de5ded.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/a1/f0/92/a1f09299045abb43d7a9c9c72139c4d7.jpg

Bthcas2
06-16-2015, 06:15 AM
arent most things from Christianity just stolen from paganism or other religions in some way? what was it anton lavey said the gods of yesterday... so wouldnt most of this symbolism be even older than just christian?
the lily is also associated with Hera the wife (consort) of Zeus. It was her breast milk spilled that these flowers came from.
They are called the Madonna Lilly sometimes when associated with Christianity.
And one myth says that as Eve left Eden she cried learning she was pregnant and from those tears lillies came.

So feminine fluids make lilies....well then.

Lilies are a symbol of fertility as well as death..they are funeral flowers too. Honestly that's all i ever see when i see white lilies..a funeral.

kk_15
07-01-2015, 11:20 AM
In enjoying these developments I must say, I loved it when I first saw MM use this with Man That You Fear back in '97 and even more when I saw him bring it back for Coma White.

If anyone is familiar with the cover artwork for the Depeche Mode album, Violator, then I think it's a nod to that as well, considering that album clearly has some sonic influences as well as the original Personal Jesus.

FeedYourHead
07-11-2015, 04:12 PM
I remember that one showed Mercury's caduceus mixed with the Cross of Lorraine.

What is going on with the Caduceus here. I searched the forum and got something about alchemy and iron and idk. What's the intended symbolism? Is it just supposed to be as simple as Mercury/ancient roman mythology and the mercurial/duality/marilyn manson thing? Did he ever use the caduceus with Holy Wood? Why would the caduceus ever have anything to do with iron as opposed to mercury? What is the cross of lorraine? Why are things?

Shangri-LIE
07-12-2015, 05:11 AM
I guess it depends on the person how we analyze this. Saint Joseph was Jesus's foster father. I know it sounds fuckin creepy but a lot of female fans look at Manson as that in their life. It goes perfect with the song in trying "to save her from herself". "The staff of Aaron of the house of Levi had blossomed; it brought forth a blossom, sprouted a bud and almonds ripened"(Num 17:23). "The Lord said to Moses, “Put back Aaron’s staff in front of the ark of the covenant law, to be kept as a sign to the rebellious. This will put an end to their grumbling against me, so that they will not die.” 11 Moses did just as the Lord commanded him."(Num 17:10). I wonder if Manson was going making a representation from this area of the Bible..... ( Keep as a sign to the rebellious) but this is just my interpretation of it

THIS