View Full Version : Jesus was a false prophet [according to the old testament] Warning: Long read

06-28-2017, 07:35 AM
Its a pretty controversial topic to bring up to a christian. When you go through the old testament, you may begin to gather that Jesus is not the messiah they were fortelling toward, but if you dig a little deeper you may also find that he should also be considered a false prophet.

***Long prologue***
I haven't done much in the way of religion lately. Its not that I think I've "figured it all out", I just lost interest. I've moved on to just living and hopefully I'll be starting to have a family in the next couple years. But I do retain information like a shamwow unwringed that sits in the moist recesses of the underside of a sink. I do know a thing or two from my youth. I grew up in a christian household and over the years I began to have more and more questions, since it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I started with the obvious place, mostly because I lived in an intolerant small midwest town and had no access to any other religious sources than christianity. I did find some problems but nothing damning. So when I moved to a bigger town and found a mosque, that was my next venue. But Islam is a its own thing. It has its disagreements with christianity but overall it is it's own thing entirely. In all honesty, I think Islam is a much more pleasant religion than christianity. But I digress.
Honestly, living here in the midwest it is hard enough to get any info on Islam, but it is near impossible to find an actual synagogue in the state that birthed the KKK. In Ft Wayne, there was a synagogue but it was one of those reform ones where they're basically christians only without the Jesus part. In the town where I live now, it is the same. There's a mosque, but all the synagogues aren't really "Jewish" but reformed. Lucky for me, the internet is becoming more robust with information. I learnt a lot about actual Judaism leading up to 2014. Back in 2010 I bought a Tanach but without the Jewish perspective its just a slightly different-worded old testament. Plus, since then I've found parts of it through the guidance of Jewish people that christians never bring up in Sunday school. Now we were getting somewhere.
Obviously the biggest question I had was one I had a mere curiosity to know, why the Jews don't believe Jesus was the messiah. There are actually quite a lot of reasons why not. And it opens the door to many other interesting old testament answers to christian beliefs.
***End prologue***

First thing to know is how god is portrayed in the old testament. It says all over in the old testament that god is incorporeal, meaning that he assumes no physical form (eg Exodus 33:18-20; Deuteronomy 4:15). In the old testament it says of god, he is eternal, above time. He is Infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. So anyone who believes in the old testament saying that god assumes human form - as is the claim of Jesus - it would make god small, diminishing both his unity and his divinity. “God is not man to be capricious, or mortal to change his mind.” (Numbers 23:19).

Jews have declared their belief in a single unified god twice daily ever since the giving of Torah at Sinai –almost two thousand years before christianity. The catholic idea of the trinity suggests a three part deity: “The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.” (“Matthew” 28:19). Contrast this to "the Shema", the basis of Jewish belief: “Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord ALONE.” (Deuteronomy 6:4). Jews declare the Shema every day, while writing it on doorposts (Mezuzah), and binding it to the hand and head (Tefillin). This statement of god's one-ness is the first words a Jewish child is taught to say, and the last words uttered before a Jew dies.
In Jewish law, worship of a three-part god is considered idolatry; one of the three cardinal sins for which a person should rather give up his life than transgress. This explains why during the Inquisitions and throughout history, Jews gave up their lives rather than convert.

But let's get right to it. How is Jesus a "false prophet?" One of his central ideas outright contradicts the old testament, the claims that he was god in the flesh. Another thing he did was talk about god being a 3 part god. And lastly, he claimed to be god's son; since god is neither human nor of this world the old testament and Jewish tradition assert he does not beget. So where in the old testament is a coming of false prophets mentioned?

Be careful to observe only that which I enjoin upon you: neither add to it nor take from it. If there appears among you a prophet or a dream-diviner and he gives you a sign or a portent, saying, ‘Let us follow and worship another god’—whom you have not experienced—even if the sign or portent that he named comes true, do not heed the words of that prophet or dream-diviner. For the Lord your God is testing you to see whether you really love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul.

According to the old testament, god = no one. From a Jewish perspective, Jesus was trying to get people to follow a god the Jews "had not experienced": A god that begets, a god that takes human form, and a god that is more than one. It was the Jewish who wrote the old testament after all.

The new testament, including Jesus himself, spent an awful lot of effort to prove there's a devil that equals god and rules the worldly realm. Aside from the fact that the old testament says that god rules over the world and makes all things happen (including evil), there is no devil according to the old testament.
The word "satan" itself means adversary. So its mainly used to describe anyone who opposes the Jews. Its also used as a verb, like this:

וַיִּחַר-אַף אֱלֹהִים, כִּי-הוֹלֵךְ הוּא, וַיִּתְיַצֵּב מַלְאַךְ יְהוָה בַּדֶּרֶךְ, לְשָׂטָן לוֹ; וְהוּא רֹכֵב עַל-אֲתֹנוֹ, וּשְׁנֵי נְעָרָיו עִמּוֹ.
But [Elohim] was was incensed at his going; so an angel of [JHVH] blocked/thwarted (or satan'd) his path.

There is, however, an angel under god's power called Satan or the Angel of Opposition (Satan) within a few old testament stories. Job is an obvious. But some less obvious examples:

He further showed me Joshua the high priest, standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. But the angel of the Lord said to Satan, "O Satan; may the Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! For this (Joshua) is a brand plucked from the fire." Now Joshua was clothed in filthy garments when he stood before the angels. The latter (Satan) spoke up and said to his attendants, "Take the filthy garments off him!" And [Satan] said to him, "See, I have removed your guilt from you, and you shall be clothed in priestly robes." Then he gave the order, "Let a pure diadem be placed on his head." And they placed the pure diadem on his head and clothed him in priestly garments, as the angel of the Lord stood by.

The anger of the Lord again flared up against Israel; and he incited David against them, saying, "Go and number Israel and Judah."

Satan arose against Israel and incited David to number Israel.

A rabbi once pointed this out to me. It is a proper noun in this case. But in all these stories Satan is always an angel of god, subservient to god, and a messenger of god. In the old testament, it says humans were created to have freedom of will; but not the angels. In christianity its believed this angel rebelled against god, took angels with him, and suddenly rivaled god in power. The old testament raises problems with this idea. The most obvious is that without free will, angels cannot rebel against god. But also, angels are never said to be anywhere near as powerful as god. So the whole idea of the devil is preposterous even if you believe in the old testament as christians claim to.

So who is the angel Satan in the old testament? The Jewish believe he is an angel that god uses to test the Jewish people by standing in their way of spirituality, to tempt them. It is believed Satan is a necessary part of life, because it is Satan who allows for 'being good' to be virtuous. It is believed that if it was so easy to be good, no one would even try. Satan is sent by god, they believe, to inspire people to better themselves and have a reason to be virtuous for god etc.

Anyways, that's what I know on the matter. Basically, christianity is rooted in the old testament which refutes a lot of what they believe, making it an oxymoron. Which I find interesting. Any thoughts or questions?

07-28-2017, 04:06 PM
Don't you talk about Jesus like that! Don't you talk about Jesus like that, motherfucker!

08-18-2017, 03:11 AM
This is actually a very well put together thread, Apologies for being a cunt. I'll add more to it. And no, not in a way that is reflective of my own philosophy threads to just get a roll of the eyes. Good job. - Placeholder - @Marilyn15Manson

11-17-2017, 03:39 PM
This is actually a very well put together thread, Apologies for being a cunt. I'll add more to it. And no, not in a way that is reflective of my own philosophy threads to just get a roll of the eyes. Good job. - Placeholder - @Marilyn15MansonIts all good. I know a lot of the old testament so yes there is a lot that could be added to this. But I also know quite a bit of the things Jesus himself said in the new testament, and they seem to be self-proclamation that he is not the messiah; which is strange because on the other hand it would seem to be the main reason he was even being so outspoken.

But then again, I've thought about this before, that he could've just been a revolutionary who wanted Rome to gtfo of his homeland. The four books about Jesus' life in Israel are spaced apart by quite a lot of time, and even the earliest one didn't get written until about 30 or so years after his death. The world may never know his true intentions.

11-23-2017, 09:47 AM
Very interesting thread! Taking out the supernatural elements I think Jesus simply embodied how the ideal follower of god should act, making him symbolically the son of god. Wether that makes him the literal son of god born from virgin birth and worthy of deification and his own religion is a whole other story...

11-23-2017, 11:12 AM
Well, its evident that each gospel that was written had more and more added onto it that hadn't been mentioned before. I think the chronological order of them is: Mark, Matthew, Luke, and then John. John has a lot of details and other things Mark or any of the other gospel books don't have. But none of them were written in Jesus' time. That's the most important thing to remember. Chapter 16 of Mark was added much later, like 3 centuries later. One of the earliest books in the new testament that wasn't written by Paul is James. In James, he doesn't appear to make any claims about Jesus being god or anything like that. Its just that one thing they all agree on is that he performed wonders for all to see. So by the testimony of all those people, let's assume he did these things, even so performing such things does not automatically mean you're a prophet/messiah.

Performing miracles isn't done by prophets to show off that they're prophets; they're done because they're necessary in that moment in time. For example, Moses didn't part the red sea all like "Yo, look what I can do because I'm a PrOpHeT!!1!", no; he did it so they could get tf out of there before the Egyptians wiped out what was left of the Jews. Christians constantly push the fact that he did all those things to prove he was the messiah, and everyone who didn't and doesn't believe it goes to "hell" etc. But by christianity's very roots, that it wrong. In fact, that line from Deuteronomy chapter 13 I quoted in the OP says that god can give just anyone the ability to perform miracles if they want to in order to test the Jewish people. What miracle of Jesus' was necessary? NONE. That's my main point. The way the gospels are written, the way the other books talk about that time, the way Jesus himself talked; he did those things to prove he was the messiah. The world could have gone on without those things being done. Basically, in a cruel twist of irony, by trying to prove Jesus was the messiah the christians proved he is not.

Any old testament prophesy of the final messiah specifies that he comes and unifies the world under "the one true god" and thus there would be no more war, hatred, etc. Basically, the messiah brings world peace. But as per jesus' own admission, his goal was not peace:

I have come to cast fire upon the Earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished! Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on Earth? I tell you, no, but rather division!

To add to that, he still came as some sort of ruler. But what kind of ruler if he intended not to be the messiah?

I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence.

You never hear these quotes in church! But the most damning thing about lines like these from the new testament is that I've brought it up to many different christians, not one of them have given me the same explanation as the last. Some of them seem to just pull their explanation out of thin air as though they'd never read this part of the bible before. And none of the bible version footnotes can seem to agree on an explanation. I think that speaks for itself...