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Thread: Do You Remember This?

  1. #11
    Silent Catalyst
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    Default Re: Do You Remember This?

    Thanks for all that info about the Rose McGowan thing.

    I know this might sound stupid, but what exactly was the reason Evan and Manson broke up? I got really confused after a while about the whole thing. Had they just been slowly drifting apart?

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Do You Remember This?

    As far as I'm aware, that's what Devour is written about, and is all we really know on the matter. Basically she said she was willing to die for him but, when it came to it, she wasn't. What got them to that point where Manson decided to find out if she was or not, I'm not sure and don't really care. That's part of his private life I don't really need to know, and doesn't change the fact she said something and couldn't keep to it.
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  3. #13
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    Default Re: Do You Remember This?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Empirical Guy
    I'm not sure and don't really care. That's part of his private life I don't really need to know, and doesn't change the fact she said something and couldn't keep to it.
    Hold on, back up. You seem to be implying that she should have allowed herself to be killed, is that right? I know Manson is big on the dark and morbid side of romance, but he's also big on hyperbole and hysterics. It seemed to me the reason they broke up was because he was asking too much and give too little, much like it was with Dita.
    The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.

  4. #14
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    This will seem drastic to some people, but yeah, she should have done. If she wasn't prepared to go through with it she shouldn't have said it in the first place. So rather what I'm saying is, instead of saying it and then backing down, she should have just kept her mouth shut about the whole thing unless she was prepared to live up to her word. Saying you will die for someone is a big thing to say. I don't really do hyperbole in things like that. If someone said that to me, I'd damn well expect them to mean it. It's because of people saying things they don't really mean that words have lost their power now. People say them and throw them away without really thinking about them.
    My avatar looks like a mix of NIN, My Chemical Romance, and Chris Vrenna

  5. #15
    Silent Catalyst
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    Default Re: Do You Remember This?

    Interesting...

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Do You Remember This?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Empirical Guy
    This will seem drastic to some people, but yeah, she should have done. If she wasn't prepared to go through with it she shouldn't have said it in the first place. So rather what I'm saying is, instead of saying it and then backing down, she should have just kept her mouth shut about the whole thing unless she was prepared to live up to her word. Saying you will die for someone is a big thing to say. I don't really do hyperbole in things like that. If someone said that to me, I'd damn well expect them to mean it. It's because of people saying things they don't really mean that words have lost their power now. People say them and throw them away without really thinking about them.
    And - this is no slight on Manson - what if you find the person you thought was worth dying for, wasn't?

    We ALL say things for people we love and mean them, and then events change things - believe me, I died for someone I loved, in the end of the day, if I had stayed dead, he was not someone it was worth dying for.

    Can you imagine, what Manson could have said to her, to all of them, that he meant and may have stepped back on? We are ALL at fault in relationships - especially when they go wrong - we all have our part to play. I understand why Manson says what he says, but that's without taking into account what he may have said and promised.
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emma
    And - this is no slight on Manson - what if you find the person you thought was worth dying for, wasn't?
    Good point. This is the exact reason I would never say something like this, and don't recommend other people say it. Of course, relationships are complex things that change and our opinions of people alter, I won't deny that. But knowing that is good cause to not go around telling people you will die for them.

    Maybe this thing can fly in a more normal, day to day relationship amongst more "normal" people. But people have commented how Dita must have known about Manson's drug use, odd hours etc before marrying him. Similarly, I imagine Evan would have known when she says she will die, Manson believes it.

    I guess you could say that Manson, and myself, are naive for thinking people just say what they mean and don't lie or mean something beyond the obvious. I would spin that around and say you'd have to be pretty naive to say something like "I would die for you" to Manson and not be prepared to live up to it, regardless of what may happen in the future. Indeed, it seems like a fucking stupid thing to say to someone like him (someone like him...)
    My avatar looks like a mix of NIN, My Chemical Romance, and Chris Vrenna

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Empirical Guy
    But people have commented how Dita must have known about Manson's drug use, odd hours etc before marrying him.
    She was aware but from what I can gather, Manson's use had gone down - at least that's my interpretation, but it seems that - according to her - his excesses got in the way of the relationship, so regardless of what one knows about someone, if someone changes or substitutes one thing for another, it kind of over rides everything someone says.

    Relationships are not binding contracts but there are unwritten rules and I am sure this was a two way thing, that there was blame of both side - I'm sure Manson tried in his own way but he also admits he wasn't ready to grow up and settle down, therefore, I do not think Dita can be blamed for being forewarned, if Manson wasn't ready to settle and Manson can not be blamed for someone elses expectations, unless of course those expectations over ride the relationship - and this is not just my summation here - I would say it to anyone in any relationship - it's about compromises - it's just unclear who did and did not compromise.

    Similarly, I imagine Evan would have known when she says she will die, Manson believes it.
    I understand what you are saying but at the same time I would say given Manson's experience in life, expectations shouldn't mean holding something to words such as that - if he really believes someone should die for him just because in their young niavity - adn lets face it, Evan was young and this will play a part in her words (which I am sure she was sincere in them but I doubt she meant literally) - I digress, if someone believes that when someone breaks up with them, they should kill themselves because they said they would, what value do they have on someone's life? And besides, how do we know, and this is why Manson relationship discussion gets so sticky - how do we know that something wasn't done that makes those words moot - for example, say someone cheated - and I am not referring to Manon here but being purely hypothetical - say someone cheats, and the person who was cheated on had said at the beginning of the relationship they would die for this person and yet thinks that because their partner cheated these words mean nothing - would you still expect them to kill themselves?

    I think human life - your life - is worth more than anyone that comes into your life - and this is based on my personal experience in life - no one is worth killing yourself over and no one should hold you to that.

    I guess you could say that Manson, and myself, are naive for thinking people just say what they mean and don't lie or mean something beyond the obvious. I would spin that around and say you'd have to be pretty naive to say something like "I would die for you" to Manson and not be prepared to live up to it, regardless of what may happen in the future. Indeed, it seems like a fucking stupid thing to say to someone like him (someone like him...)
    I think if you read what I have said before, you'll understand that no one should hold anyone's life to ransom, because relationships are not so clear cut, and actions, not words, mean the most and if someone expects someone to die because they've broken up with them, what value does that hold? Could you live with someone killing themselves because they said they'd love you to they die?

    I know I couldn't.
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emma
    Quote Originally Posted by The Empirical Guy
    But people have commented how Dita must have known about Manson's drug use, odd hours etc before marrying him.
    She was aware but from what I can gather, Manson's use had gone down - at least that's my interpretation, but it seems that - according to her - his excesses got in the way of the relationship, so regardless of what one knows about someone, if someone changes or substitutes one thing for another, it kind of over rides everything someone says.

    Relationships are not binding contracts but there are unwritten rules and I am sure this was a two way thing, that there was blame of both side - I'm sure Manson tried in his own way but he also admits he wasn't ready to grow up and settle down, therefore, I do not think Dita can be blamed for being forewarned, if Manson wasn't ready to settle and Manson can not be blamed for someone elses expectations, unless of course those expectations over ride the relationship - and this is not just my summation here - I would say it to anyone in any relationship - it's about compromises - it's just unclear who did and did not compromise.

    Similarly, I imagine Evan would have known when she says she will die, Manson believes it.
    I understand what you are saying but at the same time I would say given Manson's experience in life, expectations shouldn't mean holding something to words such as that - if he really believes someone should die for him just because in their young niavity - adn lets face it, Evan was young and this will play a part in her words (which I am sure she was sincere in them but I doubt she meant literally) - I digress, if someone believes that when someone breaks up with them, they should kill themselves because they said they would, what value do they have on someone's life? And besides, how do we know, and this is why Manson relationship discussion gets so sticky - how do we know that something wasn't done that makes those words moot - for example, say someone cheated - and I am not referring to Manon here but being purely hypothetical - say someone cheats, and the person who was cheated on had said at the beginning of the relationship they would die for this person and yet thinks that because their partner cheated these words mean nothing - would you still expect them to kill themselves?

    I think human life - your life - is worth more than anyone that comes into your life - and this is based on my personal experience in life - no one is worth killing yourself over and no one should hold you to that.

    [quote:2yk1a8nx]I guess you could say that Manson, and myself, are naive for thinking people just say what they mean and don't lie or mean something beyond the obvious. I would spin that around and say you'd have to be pretty naive to say something like "I would die for you" to Manson and not be prepared to live up to it, regardless of what may happen in the future. Indeed, it seems like a fucking stupid thing to say to someone like him (someone like him...)
    I think if you read what I have said before, you'll understand that no one should hold anyone's life to ransom, because relationships are not so clear cut, and actions, not words, mean the most and if someone expects someone to die because they've broken up with them, what value does that hold? Could you live with someone killing themselves because they said they'd love you to they die?

    I know I couldn't.[/quote:2yk1a8nx]

    That's a difficult question, because that would not be the foremost thing in my mind. I'd want to know exactly why they killed themselves. Sure, they said they would do it for me, but why did they decide to carry out their actions? Did they feel the relationship was failing? That they weren't good enough for me? That it was somehow owed? Those would be the things going through my mind.

    I do understand what you are saying though. Of course, I would never wish harm on anyone I care about. However, I have some... shall we say, different... ideas on love that are quite disagreeable with most other people. So if someone told me they would love me until they died... frankly I wouldn't believe them. There are very few people I know who have the loyalty and dedication to another person to realize the weight of those words and only say them if they intend to keep their word. Knowing that, those people would never actually say it. So if someone said that to me, I'd take it as a gross hyperbole and assume what they meant is "I love you a lot".

    I'm fucked up, I know.
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  10. #20

    Join Date: 06.29.09
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    Default Re: Do You Remember This?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jakob Synn
    Check out James Hetfield! I haven't seen a stomach sucked in that much since David Hasselhoff was on Baywatch.

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