I apologize to Ada, it does make sense in a way. I just happened to be on my 11th pint of beer when I replied initially.
Asides from that, I think it is unanimous thus far to say that monogamy is more of a personality trait, than it is within our nature. We all have the proclivity. and from what I've experienced, relationships are more "stepping stones" instead of permenant plateau's for eternal love. It is something that I hate, but it is something that I think needs to be understood.
Shelf Life - I couldn't be in an open relationship like that. It would drive me insane. But it all boils down to what you're comfortable with I suppose. :P
21Faces - As for the last part of your statement. I've thought that I'd finally met someone numerous times. But as time slowley sobers up the sustances in our brain that we call love...well, I don't feel like completing that sentence just yet.
I just woke up, and am a lackluster, flickering street lamp this morning.
It's not so much an "open" relationship as a "the door isn't locked" relationship. I might feel differently if he actually does start sleeping with another girl. Right now, it's just a theoretical. One thing I can appreciate with our relationship is that it's always been completely honest - thus, I am aware that he can't commit to me completely at this point in time, and I am granted the same liberties as he has, as well as having the option to walk away at any point. I guess we've both always felt comfortable enough to push the boundaries of conventional relationship standards, even before our relationship went through a drastic change. For some reason, I just don't feel threatened by the idea of him sleeping with other girls. Not at this point in time anyway.
As I said in my last post, there is a huge difference between fucking and making love. There is some truth in Manson's rules regarding cheating (ie, "handjobs and blowjobs are like handshakes, and therefore not cheating"). Physical monogomy is very different from emotional monogomy - the former is largely preferable, the second is absolutely crucial. If one member of a couple decides to see a prostitute, that's not necessarily cheating. If one member of a couple frequently visits brothels and spends more time (and money) sleeping with prostitutes than they do their lover, something is very wrong.
I don't know. It's late and I'm not thinking very clearly. But I think a lot of people take cheating and monogamy a little too seriously. An odd indiscretion here and there, I believe, should be forgiveable (so long as the other partner is allowed to do the same). A full-blown affair, where one partner is taken advantage of, where there is an imbalance of power, or if one partner feels more for their lover than they do their partner, is not forgiveable.
I agree with the whole "physical monogamy is different than emotional monogamy". I've been a victim of both types of breeches in trust. Yes, the emotional type is the worst. Like you said previously about being more hurt if your beau would start dating, and being romantic with someone moreso as if he were to just fuck someone.
Originally Posted by ShelfLife
To relate to what you are currently engaged in. I tried to have an open relationship with someone once, and it tore me apart. I couldn't sleep. I'd feel dirty when she'd come back around because I knew she was fucking other guys, and going out with them. However, I didn't bother trying to go find someone else. Other than that, you seem to have things pretty entact, and I agree with all of what you've said.
I find that some of the people I've been with who are and have always been stonefacedly monogamous are not people you want to even be in the same room with exclusively, while on the flipside there's just too much heartbreak in fucking around unless it's something you're prepared to handle. If you're honestly and truly happy with someone, I find that it's never a question though it's not something incredibly easy to come by.
There are some exceptions to the rule of monogamy, personally:
- hooking up with someone of the same (or mixed) gender. Honestly, I don't give a toss. I don't have tits and the etc, so if I'm seeing a girl and she wants to see another girl or anything inbetween and quasi-resembling, it doesn't bother me seeing as how I'm obviously lacking in that department. I feel the same towards guys and myself, though I haven't and really doubt I would. Personally it's purely a physical thing, because all you're doing is indulging a sexual appetite that can't otherwise be filled by your partner. The same applies to more people being in the mix simultaneously. It's not something I alone can do, so anything that goes beyond that level I have no problems with and would only want to satiate (federal laws permitting).
- Kissing, flirting and making out are pretty much like handshakes to me. It doesn't bother me. If it bothers my partner--and the same applies to the previous point, than that's something I respect 100% and would do nothing to violate that level of trust.
- Prostitutes seem like a bigger offence than random hookups, because it's something you actively need to pursue to the point of having to pay for it. The only thing that says to me is that you're unsatisfied enough to physically pay someone to do the job for something utterly meaningless, as opposed to being caught in a moment of passion (or ego, if you're lonely, desperate, or a dick). You also put your lover at a much bigger risk for what you've just exposed yourself and by proxy, them. It lacks total respect for all people involved.
I've been in something resembling open relationships, and if it's truly open that's fine, but that involves a huge level of honestly and trust, or apathy. I'm at the point where both ideas on their own make me sick and I don't really want anything to do with either anymore--but I'm still a bit of a sucker and it completely depends on the person you involve yourself with.
R ♥ P E
Well put. I had forgotten about the "same sex" exception. I'd also be fine with a girl messing around with another girl... so long as she wasn't crossing that line of "emotional infidelity." Personally I'm not much of a flirt, never have been- it almost bothers me sometimes. I think I will just have to find someone else with as stubborn a sense of loyalty as I have.
Originally Posted by CellarOwl
Also, ShelfLife, I see where you're coming from as far as physical monogamy goes. I guess for me there's just something about the exclusivity of the act. When you're with your partner physically- no matter what it is, kissing, foreplay, oral sex, whatever... there's (at least for me) part of you that knows it's an exclusive place. That's very important to me. Just to know that there are other people actively "messing around" in that exclusive space is... a huge turnoff. I'm also of the opinion that people are a little too self-indulgent- wanting to have their cake and eat it too. I mean, what about the idea that even though something is supposedly difficult by our natures that it is still something worth striving for? "Staying loyal to one person is just so difficult. The temptation to mess around with other people is so great we might as well not even try" just doesn't cut it with me. But as we've agreed, I guess it's a personality thing. Maybe it's how I was raised? My parents were married for 17 years before they separated. And for the second half of that time they were both pretty miserable, but neither of them ever cheated- and if they had cheated, it certainly wouldn't have made them any happier. Maybe that's why I'm such a stickler for monogamy?
And Cellarowl, have you ever had sex with a prostitute? I would say that hiring a pro is less offensive than a random hookup. You (usually) have to work at a hookup whether it's keeping your feelers out on the job looking for a mutually receptive mate, or buying drinks at the bar or whatever. With a pro you just dial the number, leave the money on the dresser, etc. In my experience, people in relationships go to prostitutes because they are looking for something their partner isn't giving them and are either unable or unwilling to communicate what that is. Maybe it ties in with what ShelfLife was saying- people who have affairs are usually unhappy with their relationships anyway- there's always that bitching about the person they're with- and whole other slew of people physically cheat because they're too stupid to understand why they're actually unhappy with the people they're with. But a lot of people hire pros who are otherwise completely content with where they are romantically, they're just looking for something they can't get with the person they're with.
So if you catch your partner with a hooker you can rest assured it's ~almost~ always just going to be a physical thing, whereas with a hookup... who knows what the fuck could be going on. Like when you catch your girlfriend with her project leader from work and she's like "John makes me feel ALIVE again- not like you ever did! We're running away together!" That's an affair. But when you catch your girlfriend with a pro- and he's dressed like a fireman and she's bound and gagged with rubber hosing... it's more like remember when I made that suggesting about roleplaying last month and you shot it down? Yeah...
Last edited by 21Faces; 12-31-2009 at 12:56 PM.
Thanks for not quoting me in my own thread.
Now you know how I feel in my thread (same section of the forum too, haha)
Originally Posted by Shangri-LIE
Tell me about it. Haha. But, oh well. What can you do about it?
Originally Posted by False Prophet
I've never paid a prostitute for sex; and also speaking out of personal experience, maybe hookups have a different value for me than most because I've also never had to be the aggressor or work for it in my life, whether it's been something casual with a friend or a one night stand. The last couple of times I can remember, it was the girl who'd offered to pay for drinks or for the cab so there's a different connotation there for me. Those situations aren't something I've actively had to pursue or set up, whereas messing around with a prostitute would be--so there's really no value there, whereas being with a prostitute would involve taking that step or going that extra mile. People get drunk, or emotionally fucked up, or can naturally get caught in new feelings and situations or mistakes happen sometimes out of that. It's something that's totally human and understandable. Not necessarily forgivable, but understandable. Maybe I watched too much 90210 or something as a kid.
Originally Posted by 21Faces
And going to a prostitute is a physical thing, but to me it exemplifies that you're not happy with your partner sexually enough that you're willing to actually physically pay (and expose you both unknowingly to whatever as a risk) for sex. That signifies deeper seated problems in the relationship instead of addressing your desires with the person, and if they've been addressed and you're lover won't be there for you, (unless there's some kind of side agreement) they're being irresponsible and you shouldn't be with them because obviously they can't or won't fill that role. Sex is a major part of a relationship, and it's a lover's responsibility to be aware of that.
Originally Posted by CellarOwl
CellarOwl, you're speaking about prostitutes as though they're drainpipes. In this day and age, with sex, hook-ups and one-night-stands running rampant, everyone is just as likely to have an STI or some kind of infection. In all reputable brothels, at least the ones in Australia, protection is essential, or no business. Maybe you need to be careful of street whores, but most prostitutes take their clients and their own health seriously enough to get tested regularly because they know the risks. I'd be more wary of people I don't know very well, because most people seem to have a "it wouldn't happen to me" mentality.
Originally Posted by CellarOwl
I can see what you mean about the difference between seeking a prostitute out, and just making a bad mistake with someone else, but I'm with 21Faces's on this. Paying someone for a physical encounter is entirely different from going out on the town, flirting a bit, and taking a girl home with you. A prostitute knows there's no personal feelings involved, she's just providing a service, and she's not going to be upset when you don't call her the next day.