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Thread: Abortion.

  1. #21
    cold blows the wind Golden Eel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.D. View Post
    I often wonder why, if Anti-Abortion campaigners are so concerned about the preservation of life, they waste so much of their own stood around in front of medical facilities holding picket signs.
    If you're Pro-Life, go and make amazing use of your own; read a book, write a book, make love, go somewhere you've never been, sing a song, write a song, watch a film, build something, do anything more constructive than waiting outside the Doctor's doorway so you can tell other people what's so wrong with their existence.

    By that definition, Anti-Abortion campaigners waste as much 'life' as people who undergo the procedure apparently do. Swings and roundabouts.
    Quote Originally Posted by sayyosin View Post
    Personally, I think many people who are pro-life are simply just anti-woman.
    Quote Originally Posted by 21Faces View Post
    ^exactly that. My mother likes to say that if men could get pregnant you'd be able to buy oral contraceptives- particularly "Plan B" in vending machines.
    I'm not sure I agree.

    I think you're all generalizing a bit. A lot of these people honestly believe that abortion is just as morally reprehensible as what Hitler or Mao Tse Tung did, but in a much higher order of magnitude of frequency, and with (mostly) widespread social acceptance.

    I don't think I agree with that, but I don't think it's fair to say things like 'people who are anti-abortion hate women!'
         

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  2. #22

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    Everyone should experience abortion at least once. Just for the experience.

    Don't be so close minded. You may even end up enjoying it!

    EDIT: Saying anti-abortion = anti-woman is about as valid as saying pro-choice=anti-babies.
    Last edited by Sans Agendum; 04-19-2012 at 06:28 PM.

  3. #23
    Improbability Blotter sayyosin's Avatar
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    To be fair, I said most people, not everyone who is anti-abortion. I'm generally talking about conservatives. But you have to ask why some people are against something like abortion, but totally okay with the death penalty and war. If it's because they think it is unfair murder, they are hypocrites. That's how I concluded that some of them must be just anti-woman. They don't think women should be able to control their own bodies. In a society that's patriarchal, it makes plenty of sense that they would think this way and call it "pro-life."

  4. #24
    cold blows the wind Golden Eel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sayyosin View Post
    To be fair, I said most people, not everyone who is anti-abortion. But you have to ask why some people are against something like abortion, but totally okay with the death penalty and war. If it's because they think it is unfair murder, they are hypocrites. That's how I concluded that some of them must be just anti-woman. They don't think women should be able to control their own bodies. In a society that's patriarchal, it makes plenty of sense that they would think this way and call it "pro-life."
    Fair enough, I don't want to deny that there's a misogynistic element to a lot of abortion opponents.

    I just dislike when people generalize opponents of abortion as women-hating or generalize proponents as murderers.

    I think it's fair to say that neither side gives it the full amount of thought they should before they 'choose a side'. But that's probably true for basically any important decision people make. Hell, I wouldn't deny that I'm guilty of it quite a bit myself.
         

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  5. #25
    Improbability Blotter sayyosin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MixMastahTee View Post
    Fair enough, I don't want to deny that there's a misogynistic element to a lot of abortion opponents.

    I just dislike when people generalize opponents of abortion as women-hating or generalize proponents as murderers.

    I think it's fair to say that neither side gives it the full amount of thought they should before they 'choose a side'. But that's probably true for basically any important decision people make. Hell, I wouldn't deny that I'm guilty of it quite a bit myself.
    I agree that generalizing your opponents doesn't justify or validate your position. I'm also guilty of this. I understand the views of pro-life and why they are against abortion. I just don't value life as much as them, I suppose? Maybe it's because I don't believe in a soul. Then again, if a soul exists and it went somewhere after death, wouldn't the fetus be alright in the end? Sure, you might have robbed it from experiencing life, but you also saved it from experiencing hell on earth. Is it morally reprehensible to refuse abortion knowing your child will never receive the proper health care or education it deserves, or even the proper parenting if you're a 16 year-old rape victim? What if it's born with a genetic defect, disease, etc.? Now, I don't think every potential baby that isn't genetically perfect should be aborted, but I do think a woman should be given the chance to decide whether or not she wants to make the sacrifices of bringing a child into the world.

    Some retorts I've heard, "well she should have worn a condom," "she should take responsibility and make those sacrifices because life is important." These are all valid, but you can't ignore the huge gray area. In the end, it's about the availability of having that choice. The people who think it's murder comparable to Hitler or Mao Tse...well, I think that's a pretty ridiculous comparison. A fetus is a part of a woman's body until it develops into a baby and leaves the birth canal. The atrocities that dictators directed just weren't the same, as they forced death upon millions who weren't a "part" of them at all...just a part of their plans to forward their agendas.

    I guess what I'm getting at is that a mother deciding to end the potential for life of her own product before it is even born is not the same as killing millions of live people. That's just dumb.

  6. #26

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    I am pro-abortion but prevention is always better than cure.

    Some perceive a life to be created the moment of conception; some consider it to be birth. Personally, I cannot define when an organism is considered a ‘life’, and probably won’t be able to do so until I am an expectant mother. Whether alive or not, a fetus is wholly dependent on the mother, so ultimately it is the mother’s choice whether or not to continue with the pregnancy.

    Determining whether it is right or wrong to opt for an abortion is, in my opinion, irrelevant. What is important is consideration for both the mother and child. Even if you believe that abortion is wrong, is it more wrong to bring a child into the world when you are unable to provide the best possible life for him/her? I think so.


  7. #27
    Improbability Blotter sayyosin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dysmorphia View Post
    What is important is consideration for both the mother and child. Even if you believe that abortion is wrong, is it more wrong to bring a child into the world when you are unable to provide the best possible life for him/her? I think so.
    I agree. It's not about what you think is best for everyone, it's what you think is best for your own child.

  8. #28
    Amputated Limbo ThreeEyedGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sayyosin View Post
    Sure, you might have robbed it from experiencing life, but you also saved it from experiencing hell on earth.
    As long as we are speculating: what if it would have had an awesome, fucking awesome life?

    Quote Originally Posted by sayyosin View Post
    Is it morally reprehensible to refuse abortion knowing your child will never receive the proper health care or education it deserves, or even the proper parenting if you're a 16 year-old rape victim?
    So with that logic, it would not be morally reprehensible to machine gun small, starving Ethiopian villages. Some of those people are starving nd live in hellish conditions with no hope in sight. Why not abort them? And hey, they've already experienced life, and now they are being spared from hell on Earth. Best of both worlds...lucky!


    Quote Originally Posted by sayyosin View Post
    I guess what I'm getting at is that a mother deciding to end the potential for life of her own product before it is even born is not the same as killing millions of live people. That's just dumb.
    So a 'million abortions' could easily translate to just a 'million choices being made'?
    Last edited by ThreeEyedGod; 04-19-2012 at 07:30 PM. Reason: missing quotes

  9. #29
    Improbability Blotter sayyosin's Avatar
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    I think you need to re-read what I said because you took everything and spun it around to make absolutely no sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThreeEyedGod View Post
    As long as we are speculating: what if it would have had an awesome, fucking awesome life?
    It's up to the parent whether or not they believe a fucking awesome life is even possible for their child.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThreeEyedGod View Post
    So with that logic, it would not be morally reprehensible to machine gun small, starving Ethiopian villages. Some of those people are starving nd live in hellish conditions with no hope in sight. Why not abort them? And hey, they've already experienced life, and now they are being spared from hell on Earth. Best of both worlds...lucky!
    That's not the same thing at all. A mother deciding to end the potential life of her womb has nothing in comparison with the slaughtering of unfortunate, LIVING people. Of course it's morally reprehensible to shoot other people just because they're living in hellish conditions. That has nothing to do with preventing your own potential child from going through those conditions because you cannot provide the life you think they deserve.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThreeEyedGod View Post
    So a 'million abortions' could easily translate to just a 'million choices being made'?
    I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Are you saying not all abortions are just choices? I said murdering millions of people is not equivalent to millions of abortions because most abortions are done successfully by the will of the mother who is holding it in her womb. It's not some forced killing spree in most situations, it's a choice that's made between the parents.

  10. #30
    Amputated Limbo ThreeEyedGod's Avatar
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    No spin at all as I am just holding you up to your own words.

    Quote Originally Posted by sayyosin View Post
    It's up to the parent whether or not they believe a fucking awesome life is even possible for their child.
    Now you are contradicting yourself in a very strong way. So which is it? A fetus is a child or it isn't a child?

    No, it is not up to the parent to dictate what kind of life their 'child' is going to have. When a mother gets an abortion, she is simply making the choice of whether the child( or is it just a fetus?) receives a life or is terminated. Your parents do not get to decide what life you are going to have unless they keep you around as a slave and you fail to detach from them. This is something a fetus(child?) does not get to choose.



    Quote Originally Posted by sayyosin View Post
    That's not the same thing at all. A mother deciding to end the potential life of her womb has nothing in comparison with the slaughtering of unfortunate, LIVING people. Of course it's morally reprehensible to shoot other people just because they're living in hellish conditions. That has nothing to do with preventing your own potential child from going through those conditions because you cannot provide the life you think they deserve.
    So when you get an abortion, not only are you just simply exterminating biological tissue, you are also destroying potential life? We agree, right? Destroying a fetus is not unfortunate, because it wasn't alive yet: it simply COULD HAVE BEEN alive( if you had let it be).

    But those people I described are living a hell on earth, so why not abort them? Why not end their misery? I mean the very idea is something which apparently troubles you so much, that you would end a potential life out of the paranoia that it could end up living in the same manner as those poor bastards. Look, these people ARE, in the present, LIVING hellish lives! These are actual human beings and not just pesky fetuses confined to a womb.What are you doing to save these humans??


    Quote Originally Posted by sayyosin View Post
    I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Are you saying not all abortions are just choices? I said murdering millions of people is not equivalent to millions of abortions because most abortions are done successfully by the will of the mother who is holding it in her womb. It's not some forced killing spree in most situations, it's a choice that's made between the parents.
    Most mass murderers also commit their deeds successfully by their own will. No one has forced them to do shit. This is a choice that is made between them and their respective governments.

    Of course this isn't the SAME THING: it's allegory. I'm not saying abortion performers are the same as Mao or other mass murderers, but you are the one that has entertained the notion by comparing the two to each other and you must answer for it.
    Last edited by ThreeEyedGod; 04-19-2012 at 09:51 PM.

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