Abortion.

[sayyosin]

Now you are contradicting yourself in a very strong way. So which is it? A fetus is a child or it isn't a child?

I admit to that contradiction and that's simply just an error on my part. I meant fetus, as in a potential child.

No, it is not up to the parent to dictate what kind of life their 'child' is going to have. When a mother gets an abortion, she is simply making the choice of whether the child( or is it just a fetus?) receives a life or is terminated. Your parents do not get to decide what life you are going to have unless they keep you around as a slave and you fail to detach from them. This is something a fetus(child?) does not get to choose.

The parents are the ones who are going to raise the potential child in the environment they dwell in, so in that sense, it is up to them to decide what kind of life their potential child is going to have. The potential child has no choice in this matter, so if the parents decide that having one is not in the best interests of themselves and their potential child, abortion should be available as an option. I was not talking about parents controlling the lives of their children after they have grown up.

So when you get an abortion, not only are you just simply exterminating biological tissue, you are also destroying potential life? We agree, right? Destroying a fetus is not unfortunate, because it wasn't alive yet: it simply COULD HAVE BEEN alive( if you had let it be).

But those people I described are living a hell on earth, so why not abort them? Why not end their misery? I mean the very idea is something which apparently troubles you so much, that you would end a potential life out of the paranoia that it could end up living in the same manner as those poor bastards. Look, these people ARE, in the present, LIVING hellish lives! These are actual human beings and not just pesky fetuses confined to a womb.What are you doing to save these humans??

Because they are alive. Don't you see the difference between people who are alive and breathing, and an unborn fetus who doesn't even know it exists yet? Please, enough with the assumptions that I'm "paranoid" and shit, and asking me what I'm doing to save other people's lives. It's so irrelevant to what we're discussing. Everything I said was theoretical and it doesn't apply to what I would do if I were in this situation. I'm a 19 year-old male in college and totally inexperienced with the idea of having a child. I have no idea what I would do. I was not implying that abortions should be done because parents should be afraid that their potential child could have a life that's as unfortunate as your example, but that if it were the case, meaning, if they believed bringing a child into their life would do more harm than good for that potential child, they should have the option to do what they think is in the best interest of their potential child. Abortion should be a last resort, not a get-out-free card.

Most mass murderers also commit their deeds successfully by their own will. No one has forced them to do shit. This is a choice that is made between them and their respective governments.

Of course this isn't the SAME THING: it's allegory. I'm not saying abortion performers are the same as Mao or other mass murderers, but you are the one that has entertained the notion by comparing the two to each other and you must answer for it.

If you read MMT's post earlier in the thread, you would see that I'm just replying to his notion that some pro-life people consider abortions to be just as morally reprehensible as Hitler or Mao's actions. I am not comparing them for any reason, and I think the comparison itself is distracting from the real questions: should women have the right to decide what is best for their potential child? Should women be able to do what they want with their bodies?

[The Empirical Guy]

Pro-abortion, but it should be taken care of as soon as possible and prevention is a much better option. If you find out you are pregnant through no fault of your own (ie; you were making correct use of contraception etc), and do not wish to proceed with the pregnancy, that's your choice. Take care of it quickly though. Late term abortions can be a trickier matter, but in the first few weeks, that fetus is nothing but a little blob of non-sentient cells. Life, surely, but no more so than the bacteria we kill every time we brush our teeth and wash our bodies, so it's not first degree murder as such. In that instant, I don't care. Don't want a baby? Vacuum that liquified fetus right out! If you've done everything in your power to prevent it (apart from abstinence, obviously), then you have the choice to proceed down that path and stop yourself from having a baby. Maybe it's for reasons as selfish as you don't want one, don't want to deal with the impact on your life. That's cool by me. However, things should be done as soon as possible. It boggles me how late some women find out they are pregnant. Now, I'm no woman, but it seems to me that it would be pretty obvious you are pregnant, what with that whole not bleeding out your vagina not happening and stuff. Despite this, I know 2 separate people (one of whom had been pregnant before and should know the signs!) who have not found out they were pregnant until nearly the sixth month!

Once things go late term, it get's a little sticker. When you can have an ultrasound and see a very definite human form in there... is it alive? It's life, but does it feel? Have thought? Certainly none of us can remember being in the womb, so we might suggest not, and killing them at this point would not result in any pain or suffering. However, simply through the shape and human-like appearance of the unborn, it becomes a moral sketchy ground. However, in cases such as rape, illness of the mother that could impact the child, or simply through the knowledge that for any reason the child would have a life difficult due to circumstances such as a poor or unable upbringing, severe disablility etc, then I still think it's ok. As Dysmorphia said:

Even if you believe that abortion is wrong, is it more wrong to bring a child into the world when you are unable to provide the best possible life for him/her? I think so.

[ThreeEyedGod]

In that instant, I don't care. Don't want a baby? Vacuum that liquified fetus right out! If you've done everything in your power to prevent it (apart from abstinence, obviously), then you have the choice to proceed down that path and stop yourself from having a baby. Maybe it's for reasons as selfish as you don't want one, don't want to deal with the impact on your life. That's cool by me.

This is the best answer as it is a brutally honest, not sugar coated, beat around the bush answer.

But if you haven't done everything to prevent it( apart from abstinence), then you don't have a choice to proceed down that path?

Even if you believe that abortion is wrong, is it more wrong to bring a child into the world when you are unable to provide the best possible life for him/her? I think so.

So if it turns out you are unable to provide the "BEST" ( what does this even mean? What is the "best"? I'm not rich, so therefore my parents did not provide the best possible life for me?), then you are wrong for not having terminated your fetus? All these poor people with children should have known better and had abortions! Look at what their fetus grew up to be: Living in a trailer and eating a 5 day a week macaroni and cheese diet, while their poor ass father works at the button factory.

There are some well regarded points in the "pro-choice" camp and this is not one of them.

And if you are so indifferent when it comes to sucking a fetus out of a woman, why is prevention a better option? To conserve electricity? Cut back on bio-waste? Spare the woman some sort of shame? Who cares, let her have as many as she can handle.

[Dysmorphia]

So if it turns out you are unable to provide the "BEST" ( what does this even mean? What is the "best"? I'm not rich, so therefore my parents did not provide the best possible life for me?), then you are wrong for not having terminated your fetus? All these poor people with children should have known better and had abortions! Look at what their fetus grew up to be: Living in a trailer and eating a 5 day a week macaroni and cheese diet, while their poor ass father works at the button factory.

I actually think that people who can't afford to have children shouldn't have them. I live in an area with high levels of unemployment, where many families are totally dependant on social security payments. The thing is, these families have been on the dole for generations. When they need more money, they poop out another child so they get a bit of extra cash from social security. Their living conditions are poor and the children miss out.
Personally, when I want to start a family it will be when I feel I am in the most optimum position to do so. That is having a reliable source of income, a stable home, family unit and being physically and mentally prepared.

And if you are so indifferent when it comes to sucking a fetus out of a woman, why is prevention a better option? To conserve electricity? Cut back on bio-waste? Spare the woman some sort of shame? Who cares, let her have as many as she can handle.

Abortions are gross. It is so much easier to pop a pill in your mouth at the same time every day than to put your body through this kind of procedure. Abortions have several complications such as infections, cervical damage and a greater risk of death during childbirth in other pregnancies.

[The Empirical Guy]

This is the best answer as it is a brutally honest, not sugar coated, beat around the bush answer.

But if you haven't done everything to prevent it( apart from abstinence), then you don't have a choice to proceed down that path?

You do, but it's a careless choice. Abortion is not a contraceptive. If you know full well that you do not want a child, take the necessary steps to prevent pregnancy in the first place, don't just whip your baby making parts around and and think that abortions are the first answer.

So if it turns out you are unable to provide the "BEST" ( what does this even mean? What is the "best"? I'm not rich, so therefore my parents did not provide the best possible life for me?), then you are wrong for not having terminated your fetus? All these poor people with children should have known better and had abortions! Look at what their fetus grew up to be: Living in a trailer and eating a 5 day a week macaroni and cheese diet, while their poor ass father works at the button factory.

"Best" means a good quality of life where the child has a reasonable attempt at being happy and creating a existence for themselves they are happy with. This is entirely unconnected to money and your area where you live. I don't want to have child right now because I know I can not afford to support one. They would either be brought up in an extremely poor situation without proper care, or I would be forced to work my ass off at jobs I hate doing extremely long days at minimum wage, making my own life so unsatisfactory that I would likely end up resenting the child and damaging them through the relationship. Either way, the child is not going to have a good upbringing.

My parents have done a far from perfect job of raising me, and we certainly have never been rich, but they did the best damn job they could in their way and it put me in a position to go out and create my own life in the world and have a fair stab at a happy existence.

That isn't to say that people in 3rd world countries shouldn't reproduce, either. They live in a different culture, things are very different there. What is the best possible life there is different from here. But there is a difference between bringing a child in to a poor village where they can at least scratch out a living on a small patch of farmland, and popping one out on the way to the refugee camp, hoping and praying that you will be one of the lucky ones to get a share in the next food aid shipment, if and when it arrives.

[Sticky Killer Jones]

I am pro-life. When I can, I spend my time with my uncle who does work for Operation Rescue, basically traveling to abortion clinics around the country that still do late-term abortions and harass the women (mostly prepubescent girls) who are coming in to murder their child.

I do not care if you were raped, you should have kept your legs closed. Especially if you're only a teenager. Saw an 11 year-old with a large belly visit Dr. George Tiller (the Baby Killer) a few years ago. Such a floozy. Young ladies these days have no sense of propriety. Nor do I care if giving birth is a risk to the mother's life. A person is a person, no matter how small.

I also care much less if the child you're having (whether you like it or not) is going to have terminal, untreatable ailment that will eventually take it's life not long after birth. As long as my tax money doesn't go to helping your lazy, unemployed, minority ass to pay for all the medical expenses of taking care of your special needs child.

Just because I held up the value of life of the unborn much higher than you do, doesn't mean that I extend my graciousness to the rest of the population! Especially if they're 'struggling' and 'poor'. Poverty is a mental illness, like promiscuity and feminism. I'll direct you to my Bible for help, not my wallet.

[The Empirical Guy]

I'm sorry, forgive me if I'm missing something obvious, but you are trolling, right? I mean:

I do not care if you were raped, you should have kept your legs closed. Especially if you're only a teenager.

Come on, now, seriously. You do realize that the entire definition of "rape" is that she didn't want it, right? It's pretty hard to keep your legs closed when set upon by a group of physically stronger males and a knife held to your throat.

[AssetReign]

I'm sorry, forgive me if I'm missing something obvious, but you are trolling, right? I mean:



Come on, now, seriously. You do realize that the entire definition of "rape" is that she didn't want it, right? It's pretty hard to keep your legs closed when set upon by a group of physically stronger males and a knife held to your throat.

I was hoping that was Sticky's misguided attempt at sarcasm because the alternative is too dark to contemplate.

[MixMastahTee]

but you are trolling, right?

Badly, at that.

[Whisky And Speed]

I got abortion in my eyes.