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Thread: Lucifer as a symbolic role model.

  1. #11
    cold blows the wind Golden Eel's Avatar
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    So edgy.
         

    and with just one faint glance back into the sea
    the mollusk lingers with its wandering eye
      
      

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  3. #12

    Join Date: 01.20.12
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    Satan only persuaded Eve to consume to fruit of knowledge in an attempt to drive a wedge between God and Men by proving them as disobedient as he was. It had nothing to do with assisting us. Also in the book of Job, Satan/Lucifer questions Job's devotion and requests that God test him to prove if he is truly devoted, which God does and Job passes with flying colors. He is accusing, not assisting.

    Lucifer is not trying to enlighten or lift man up. He's just trying to accuse him of disobedience to drive a wedge between man and God.

  4. #13
    Amputated Limbo ThreeEyedGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Favenris View Post
    Lucifer was an angel who disagreed with God. His only real crime was challenging God's authority and supposed omniscience. For this, he was cast out of heaven along with other angels who agreed with him.
    Challenge the authority of YOUR boss and see how long you can keep your job.
    Challenge the authority of the police and see if you don't land in jail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Favenris View Post
    He reminds them that they are not slaves to God's demands, and that they have free will.
    But GOD created man and is the alpha and the omega: they were supposed to answer to no one but him. HE totes was our keeper.


    Quote Originally Posted by Favenris View Post
    would mean she would actually become aware of her surroundings in stead of being a mindless drone. Eve had a choice.
    What evidence does the bible you cite have that they were "mindless drones"?



    Quote Originally Posted by Favenris View Post
    Personally, I'd much rather get behind a deity which encouraged me to think and make my own choices
    You could thank him once he is chewing you alive while demons chest rape you in the 8th layer of hell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Favenris View Post
    rather than one that demands I follow his orders and acts like a three-year-old when I don't comply.
    He's your creator, if you don't like it tough cookies.
    Again: see how long you keep your job if you don't follow orders.
    Not following the established rules will have consequences: that is a fact of life.

  5. #14

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    There was only ONE rule to be followed and they were free to do whatever they wanted besides that one thing. So basically EVERYTHING was free except, "Don't do this one thing". So critical thinking was already there, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to disobey. They were able to disobey because GOD gave them the ability to do so.

    Fave has his wires crossed and is ignorant about the things he's trying to talk about. End of story.

  6. #15
    cold blows the wind Golden Eel's Avatar
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    I think the idea of 'role models' in general is silly. Though, if I were to choose one, it wouldn't be Lucifer.
         

    and with just one faint glance back into the sea
    the mollusk lingers with its wandering eye
      
      

  7. #16
    SEX PIG Mugwump's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MixMastahTee View Post
    I think the idea of 'role models' in general is silly. Though, if I were to choose one, it wouldn't be Lucifer.
    Coming from a mindless drone, this does not surprise me.

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  9. #17

    Join Date: 03.16.12
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    I look up to the idea of Lucifer quite a lot not in the xtian sense but in The Antiquarian way which viewed Him as the Son of the Roman God Aurua and as for his Title of Light bearer I see that as light in dark times as well as one of knowledge, Yes I am a Satanist and have read some of Lavey's work I can agree with a good number of his philosophy .

  10. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by filthytothecore View Post
    I look up to the idea of Lucifer quite a lot not in the xtian sense but in The Antiquarian way which viewed Him as the Son of the Roman God Aurua and as for his Title of Light bearer I see that as light in dark times as well as one of knowledge, Yes I am a Satanist and have read some of Lavey's work I can agree with a good number of his philosophy .
    This mostly comes from the idea of a link between Lucifer and Prometheus though. It's not exactly accurate. It's more of a play on words and hypothetical theologian links. If we're really talking about Lucifer here, his meaning was always that as a chief worshiper of God who so admired Him that he spent most his time reporting the misdeeds of man in attempts to convince God that they were unworthy. He's not on the side of mankind. The light he shed wasn't for guidance really so much as it was to reveal faults in man's character and integrity.

    Remember that the ways of eternity are beyond the reach of man. Whatever is revealed only really SEEMS real or new but is just tastes of paradise. It can be beguiling, but in the end it's just ruinous garbage. Stay the path, or otherwise be shot in slow motion through the actions of intake that were better left avoided. Experience is the Mistress of Fools. Just a different and more difficult road to the same conclusion.

    EDIT(The next morning) Wow, what was that last paragraph? I must have been REALLY sleepy.
    Last edited by Sans Agendum; 04-27-2012 at 10:15 AM.

  11. #19

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    @Favenris: I think you are on track with several of your ideas. It is pretty basic to us, but a lot of the realities surrounding "satan" "lucifer" and the bible are little understood. Many don't really know the origins of myths, their usage, and meanings, especially some Christians.


    I won't delve into my ideas, but, about 10 years ago I read a document called "Digital Journey." It was the first time I encountered the concept of Lucifer as a symbol for knowledge. I am including the link, which I do not advocate the philosophy or writings. I present them for those that could read them without reading too much into them because they are kind of dogmatic, strange, or whatever.


    This is an excerpt that is relevant:


    "...in Paradise Lost, John Milton's secret hero is the
    passionate, light-bearing archangel Lucifer. That outcast illuminator
    discovers mighty purpose, drive, and power from beyond the
    anticivilization -- from beyond a dark, boring "heaven" deceptively
    masquerading as the kingdom of light. From outside that fraudulent
    realm, Lucifer musters increasing power from the ceaseless torture and
    futility inflicted upon him by that kingdom's cruel-and-vengeful
    tyrant -- God.
    Furthermore, by building his power through purpose and drive,
    Lucifer gains endless secret victories over the never-ending
    afflictions of an anticivilization heaven as portrayed in Albert
    Camus' Myth of Sisyphus. Indeed, from Homer to Aeschylus to Sophocles
    to Dante to Milton to Nietzsche to Camus to Rand, the protagonists
    become heroes by overcoming the relentless afflictions of an
    anticivilization. But, still, no mortal hero escapes the agonies,
    declines, and death ultimately inflicted by an anticivilization. Even
    immortal Hercules immolated himself to escape the anticivilization.
    And, immortal Lucifer plunged into eternal fire to escape."

    The document I believe was available only online in whole, while parts were published and sold as part of a larger manuscript. It is almost impossible to find online now that the author has passed away.

    The chapters were titled: Invisible Illuminati, Overcoming the Evils of God and State, Seize the Power of Satan, Obliterate Truth, Immortality via High-tek/biotech, Brain-Digitizing Programs, and Only Atheists go to Heaven.

    If you are to read the link, you must know that the word for their philosophy system, "Neo-Tech" means 'fully integrated honesty'. It is basically just reason free from religion. "Anticivilization" is their term for a predominantly religious society while the "civilization of the universe" is the proposed natural, business society. "Zon" is their metaphor of "man becoming god" and the basic belief is:

    *do away with religion,
    *promote business/science,
    *work to become immortal/happy (on Earth),
    *exercise free-choice not follow external authority,
    and *money is mans true religion, etc.

    They really go for using metaphors of Lucifer, Satan as a shock value, praising his values while dismissing God. They also label, of course, God as the bad guy.

    This link is part of the unpublished version:

    Digital Journey: Part Three

    I may delete this post because it may be too "out there" for the Manson forum. to each his own. Some of the other chapters may actually be better but I am only listing the one link because it has the relevant text. It really seems a strong advocate of the Lucifer as a symbolic role model.
    Actually, I will include one additional link to the chapter
    "Only Atheists Go to Heaven"
    it is really unusual so who knows, maybe someone could find some parts interesting
    Last edited by bodies35; 09-23-2012 at 08:35 PM.

  12. #20
    Mexicanfiend's Avatar
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    It is funny how the concept of the Devil has evolved throughout the history of judaism and christianity.

    "Demon" comes from the greek word "daimon" which literally means "spirit". All our ideas of Satan being the fallen, rebellious angel come from a book that, altough is not considered a part of the Bible, had a huge impact on both jews and christians: The book of Enoch. The history of Lillith, the Nephilim and Satan's decision to become the ultimate outcast can be found there. The prophet Daniel, Ezekiel and even Jesus quote it at certain points.

    The serpent on the garden of Eden wasn't strictly "Satan", it's name was Samael, but not until medieval times both characters got mixed. In fact, the devil is mentioned quite a few times on the old testament, the most known one is located in the book of the prophet Isaiah, which mentions that he "saw the morning star falling quickly from the sky" (a reference to the planet Venus), which upcoming studies associated with Satan, hence the name "Lucifer" (a derivative name from the latin way of saying "morning star").

    The devil takes some relevance in the new testament, when Jesus used to be tempted by him on the desert, as well with his power to cast demons out from the people's bodies. But still, there is no concept of hell whatsoever, because he only took away "impure spirits" out of normal dudes; like curing them from mental illneses, instead of demonic shadows in the way movies like "the exorcist" or "the exorcism of Emily Rose" describe. If anything, Jesus mentions that the ones that do not follow God's rules will burn in the everlasting fire, the Gehenna (Jerusalem's dump place). This idea will later be reworked by the church leaders in order to fit the concept of hell within the christian beliefs.

    So, impure spirits evolved into these winged creatures with horns, whose sole purpose is to torment us and push us away from the righteous path. All of today's demons were actually old pagan gods: Beelzebub was actually Baal-Zeebou, a god from Fenice, same with Moloch, Marduk, Tiamat, Ishtar, Abraxas and the list can go on and on and on and on...

    Is the Devil a role model? It depends. If you're an individual who likes to always question everything, that rebels towards any kind of authority, which always fights instead of passively recieving what is given to you, then yes. I take it more as an inspirational figure, the same way I take Jesus, Judas, Mary Magdalene, St. Peter and many other biblical characters, but in no way I could place it as a "role model" in my life because, despite what my devoted family and friends might say (some are even sure they've witnessed demonic possesions), I don't really believe in him.

    ¿Please to meet you? I wish you were real, you will never guess my name.
    Last edited by Mexicanfiend; 12-09-2012 at 09:54 PM.

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