Nav_image
Nav_image Nav_image Nav_image Nav_image Nav_image Nav_image Nav_image Nav_image Nav_image
Nav_image Nav_image Nav_image Nav_image Nav_image Nav_image Nav_image Nav_image
Nav_image
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 20

Thread: Born Villain: The Grandest Concept Record of All

  1. #1
    Not man enough to b human Manson15Marilyn's Avatar
    Join Date: 05.13.12
    Location: The redneck-burnout-midwest
    Posts: 426
    Rank: Glass Jaw

    Default Born Villain: The Grandest Concept Record of All

    The album starts with Hey, Cruel World...

    The very title represents change, as the world can be rather cruel to the villain of a story. The line:

    Creator, preserver destroyer; ask which one I am
    It introduces the villainous theme to the album, as he assumes the role of the 'destroyer', foreshadowing the rest of the album's contents.

    And I Ching being a major influence due to its theme:

    Creator = ☰ _ 乾 [qián], creative, the father of the family, the head of the body, the sky, the horse. This is a strong, and creative person.

    Preserver = ☷ _ 坤 [kūn], receptive, the mother of the family, the belly of the body, earth, the cow. This is a devoted and friendly person.

    Destroyer = ☳ _ 震 [zhčn], arousing, the first born son of the family, the foot of the body, thunder, the dragon. This is a person with the ambition to cause change.

    The center of the universe cannot exist when there are no edges.
    Here, he expresses how many people try to define what one can and cannot do; yet he's saying we're the ones creating those limitations and that we can do far more than we think.

    And the song also has ties with Manson's entree, Rapeture.

    Then the album goes into No Reflection:

    In a way, the song represents the whole album. How Manson had become confused because of the circumstances in his life, something he thinks happens to everyone. The confusion was that he didn't know how to be himself because of those circumstances, and didn't know if it was truly who he wanted to be.

    I chose [No Reflection] as the first single because I thought it was almost if the record were a movie, that’s the song I would use for the trailer, because I thought it represented the album. It had the spirit of the record and it had the attitude of the album. I’m not saying I think of it as the “big hit single” or any of that stuff, because I didn’t think on those terms. The world has changed into a place that is almost exactly, in a great way, how I started out; where I didn’t think on those terms. I didn’t think, “I have to pick a song that’s three minutes and fifteen-seconds,” and all this bulls–t. Simply, this is the song that I like, that I want people to hear and it just the very beginning. You obviously don’t want to give away an entire movie in a trailer for a movie, and that’s the way I thought of the song and that’s why I picked it.
    I was in a place where I could not figure out how to deal with being me. Me the person — not me as Marilyn Manson. Sometimes you don’t know how the fuck to be yourself, because you’re too confused by the circumstances you’re in. Everyone goes through that.
    So being confused as to whether or not who you are is who you want to be, is like not having an identity; and without an identity—without a face—you have no reflection in a mirror.

    This will hurt you worse than me. I’m weak. 7 days, I’m weak. Don’t run from me. I won’t bother counting 1, 2, 3...
    The album isn't about anybody, so the line doesn't talk to anyone in particular. Its mainly for the listener. As people change, they also drift away from some people including loved ones. Manson had been stabbed in the back by loved ones in the past, so this is one of his 'implied threats' on this album.

    I can show myself how to make a noose. A gun’s cliche, and a razor too.
    This line is also another one of his 'implied threats.'

    I’m not a death-trip vacation vacant station, made of scars and filled with my old wounds.
    In this line, he merely expresses satisfaction in himself and having control of that.

    I'm very satisfied and happy with being in control of my life. I think that's key. Everyone who's unhappy usually doesn't have that control of their life. And, of course, a tortured artist is almost redundant but I'm not into being a masochist like all the stars have been showing; emotional and physical. I'm simply trying to enjoy doing what I do because otherwise there's no point in doing it.
    Pistol Whipped is all an 'implied threat', and isn't about anyone in particular. They're just his feelings toward any women who may want to try to fuck him over, etc.

    Overneath the Path of Misery draws from a lot of different literary vices, and is pretty much about changing yourself, for which there is no reason.

    People like you for reasons. There's no reason to change what you are, but if you're not being you, then you need to acknowledge that. And it didn't take psychology or sobriety or anything that rhymes with a Y at the end for me to realize it.
    From The Tragedy of Macbeth:

    “And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
    The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
    Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player,
    That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
    And then is heard no more. It is a tale
    Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
    Signifying nothing.”
    This song has many references to The Tragedy of Macbeth. In this particular quote, he is seemingly taking Macbeth's position about how bad life is; however:

    I also cite Macbeth: "A poor player struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more ... Full of sound and fury ... signifying nothing." And that is, essencially, where I found myself in my career. 'This is what I've done. What does it all mean? Its loud, its exciting; but does anyone get it?'
    That quote can be taken as 'woe is me', 'my life is s***', 'I give up.' When Macbeth said it, it was a resignation. But I read it differently. I started thinking it was empowering. For me, it was a resurrection.
    Stare into my Kodak Rome Jack-hammer ice eyes. I never thought you’d see the asphalt crack, crack, crack like black eggshell.
    Another 'implied threat.' And, I'm not saying they're related, but I think this line shares a similar theme with a line to another song they did back in 1990:

    Smack dab flat on my back, and the solid ground beginning to crack. I pulled her down and down and down. I lost my breath I thought I'd drown.
    Only instead of him being on his back on the cracked asphalt, it is the one he would be referring to.

    Why die when you can kill the father? Dad is missing an ‘e.’
    Here, he assumes the role of the villain again. This is a direct reference to The Tragedy of Macbeth, as Macbeth killed his father in order to take the throne. Through doing so, Macbeth was changing for the things he believed in. Manson is metaphorically doing the same.

    I won’t regret letting you live even if you forgot what you never saved me from. So I say ‘whatever’ or fornever.
    Simply about letting go of the past, and he seems to show a quality of showing mercy.

    The Rape of Persephone was choreographed by all the wrong Greeks. The Rape of Persephone was a marketing scheme. Rape rape rape per so phony.
    This line talks about victimisation. About this, Manson said:

    You’re not a victim if you just own what you are.
    Slo-Mo-Tion is all about his feelings about a relationship between two people [doesn't necessarily have to be a romantic one] in which they pretend everything is great between them, when they really have problems they are ignoring.

    The Gardener takes influence from themes in Les Fleurs du Mal.

    But first, Manson expresses how he used to try to "be human" but realising what the concept of being human really was; as it is created by society, making people live a certain way of living and keeping them from opening their minds.

    The flower imagery comes from his interpretation of Les Fleur du Mal, whatever that may be, he seems to look at it in quite an abstract way, as the rest of the song seems to follow along with the imagery in his painting he named after the book.


    Les Fleur du Mal by Marilyn Manson

    The Flowers of Evil is named after the english translation of the book Les Fleur du Mal. I think it follows along with his interpretation of the themes of the poems in the book, yet it follows along with his own personal transformation. And it seems to tie with the per so phony line in Overneath the Path of Misery, about his realisation of control over his life and getting out of victimisation.

    Children of Cain seems to talk about his feelings toward society, the christian America he grew up with; which he feels he's always been a villain to.

    Disengaged is all about Manson burning bridges during his transformation, being stabbed in the back in the past, and now not putting up with that anymore.

    But I guess after I made The Golden Age of Grotesque and after dealing with Columbine—where I got blamed with something that I did not do—I had to deal with the [start of a] whole era which probably made [critics] like you disenfranchised. Dissatisfied. Dis-engaged, anything with “dis” in it.
    The title means 'drifting away.'

    ...it was the lack of ambition I had--and it was because I was too wrapped up and too concerned about other people's feelings about me, and I don't mean the public who doesn't know me but the people who know me. I think about it as friends in the passed decade of my life, getting on stage and expecting my most deepest feelings.
    It also means he disengaged himself from being so wrapped up in what loved ones thought of him.

    And I'm an event, and everybody knows
    This line is about how people see him, as an artist and not as a person, but how he doesn't care what they think he is or what they think he should be.

    You decide if you can live, or you decide to let someone decide for you
    This line is about thinking for yourself.
    I am your vulture, your immoral sculpture, mirrorman who understands. I know you. I am you, your fantasy, reality.

    Don't be surprised I can look you in the eye. It's hard to take you serious when you take me inside.

    How the fuck are we supposed to know when I'm a monster in the way you refuse to die? How the fuck are we supposed to know if we're in love or if we're in pain?
    "Are we in love or are we in pain?"

  2. #2
    Not man enough to b human Manson15Marilyn's Avatar
    Join Date: 05.13.12
    Location: The redneck-burnout-midwest
    Posts: 426
    Rank: Glass Jaw

    Default

    (Part 2) Because it was too long to go in 1 post:

    Lay Down Your Goddamn Arms is essentially about being yourself.

    To open this box you can’t shoot the lock. I hide everything so you can’t see.
    Pretty self-explanatory, really. But its really a line about self-preservation, he presents a challenge. And those who take up that challenge become worthy of knowing him at all. He's finding out who his real friends are.

    Wanna fight? Wanna fuck? Wanna die? Try your luck… Lay down your goddamn arms. There isn’t a key, you can use on me. There isn’t a key, so lay down your arms.
    Another 'implied threat.' And also the challenge he presents, yet again.

    You’re a book. Every page is written in words I cannot read. So i burn, gotta burn it
    A line about burning some of the bridges through his change. Some people can't handle who he wants to be.

    Murderers are getting Prettier Every Day is a song about the bridges burnt when there are people who can't accept who you are.

    You’re just a ring tone, that happens when you get sick enough to call the one with bullet holes for eyes
    ties in with

    To open this box you can’t shoot the lock.
    Metaphorically, of course, the one with bullet holes for eyes is a person whom had their lock shot open in an attempt to hide everything.

    To open this box you can’t shoot the lock.
    also ties in with

    I broke open the box when I spoke the spell and I became an entrance wound to your bedroom grave, and I was paid with the shadow of consensual rape.
    Its another 'implied threat.' It ties in with what No Reflection foretold

    This will hurt you worse than me. I'm weak. 7 days, I'm weak. Don't run from me. I won't bother counting 1,2,3...
    If they don't burn the bridge, he will.

    Born Villain is all about change, and being a villain. Its basically a fruition of the entire album.

    The line

    you’ll have to cut it down and burn me into splinters or I’ll unwrap the string that was me, around your finger. And I’ll hang you in your bedroom burial ground.
    ties in with

    I broke open the box when I spoke the spell and I became an entrance wound to your bedroom grave, and I was paid with the shadow of consensual rape.
    As explained above, its about Manson becoming what he wanted to be; and how it burned bridges with some. But it comes down to who would burn that bridge. If they wouldn't do it, he would. When he says they will have to cut it down and burn him into splinters, he created a metaphor for that bridge; which represents himself. If you no longer know someone, they become dead in your mind.

    And the song is also about his realisation that his was "born villain" and to those with whom he burned bridges who "pretend to be a victim."

    Breaking the Same Old Ground closes out the album. And it is not addressed to anyone in particular. In fact, it seems to just be directed at whoever may be listening. He basically talks about who he is, now.

    ---------------------------------------------------------

    All this can be applied to one's own internal transformation. Marilyn Manson wrote less lyrics, and for the first time repeats verses several times. Even though there is less lyrical content, it has more meaning in each song.

    It's the first record where I repeat verses. I just sing the words in a different key, the next time. I've never done that before, because I've always felt like I needed to write a lot of words in the past … I think this will probably be the grandest concept record of all.
    Last edited by Manson15Marilyn; 05-14-2012 at 07:00 AM.
    I am your vulture, your immoral sculpture, mirrorman who understands. I know you. I am you, your fantasy, reality.

    Don't be surprised I can look you in the eye. It's hard to take you serious when you take me inside.

    How the fuck are we supposed to know when I'm a monster in the way you refuse to die? How the fuck are we supposed to know if we're in love or if we're in pain?
    "Are we in love or are we in pain?"

  3. #3
    Not man enough to b human Manson15Marilyn's Avatar
    Join Date: 05.13.12
    Location: The redneck-burnout-midwest
    Posts: 426
    Rank: Glass Jaw

    Default

    Here is some extra information:

    The inspirations for the album:

    The Tragedy of Macbeth by William Shakespeare
    Never Bet the Devil Your Head by Edgar Allan Poe
    Les Fleurs du Mal [The Flowers of Evil] by Charles Baudelaire
    A Dangerous Method by David Cronenberg
    I Ching [The Classic of Changes]

    I don't know where [the flower imagery] came from essentially. Maybe it's because my dad was in Vietnam and there's an iconic image of the flower being put into the rifle.

    A pistil is obviously the female part of the flower and I think that this record and everything on it is an implied threat.
    Album Themes and Concepts:

    I didn’t do anything wrong. My biggest question has always been, “People think my music makes people kill other people? Why aren’t they worried about what the f— I’m going to do?” [Laughs] I’ve had 36 school shooting blamings under my belt … and my dick under my belt, also. [Laughs] I didn’t do it. If I knew the people personally, I’d feel sad, but I’m not going to take it personally. What I’m going to take is the fact that life is all about change, and the villain is always the catalyst, the villain is always the person who creates something different in the story. I don’t mean “villain” in the sense that people might define it as the “bad guy,” I’m not saying the “bad guy.”

    When I say the villain, I mean in the traditional sense like in Macbeth, like in anything else. The hero doesn’t do anything in any story and I didn’t have to go to school to learn this, it was me being a fan of literature and film. The hero doesn’t do anything different. The hero always stays the same, there’s no character arc, he’s always the hero. The villain is the person who has the chance to change something. They might break the rules, but that’s the thing, sometimes if you don’t f—ing break the rules, you’re not going to save anything, you’re not going to change anything.

    If someone threatens what I love or what I care about, which they’ve done in the past. I’ve had everything taken from me, and now I feel like I’m the same position as in the beginning, where I’m not going to be ignorant and stubborn, which I am often, and someone threatening my family or things I care about — my girl, my cats, my life. Sometimes the male instinct is to do something stupid, but I would kill somebody if I had to, but then at the same time wouldn’t protect them (his loved ones) because I’d be in prison or dead, so that’s not smart. I need to be an outlaw, I need to be a villain, I need to be the person that you don’t want to f— with so people don’t f— with what I do. That’s what I started out being and when I for some reason had a hesitation because I was essentially crushed by a lot of different things. I started to lose my identity and anybody can relate to that. If you lose who you are, what do you have?

    ...

    I’ve always found the villain to be the most important character in any story. I don’t mean the bad guy necessarily; to me, the villain is the catalyst that makes change in the story, that moves into Act 2.
    Maybe I’m in Act 2 of my career right now, and this is where it gets good.

    ...

    Growing up going to Christian school and the concept that you're born a sinner and you don't really have a choice to change who you are has been hammered into my head and created the entire reason why I made art and made a band and made records called Antichrist Svperstar

    In any story, the villain is the catalyst. The hero's not a person who will bend the rules or show the cracks in his armor. He's one-dimensional intentionally, but the villain is the person who owns up to what he is and stands by it. He'll do the things that are sometimes morally questionable, but he does it because it's his nature to do it and it doesn't fluctuate. It's the fable of the frog and the scorpion, all those stories that just say, whatever you're going to be, stick to it in confidence. Don't waver or life will fuck you over.

    Born Villain was the perfect title for this record simply because its just the way I am. And then it becomes a question of 'nature or nurture?' Are people raised to be a villain, or villified, or a paraiah like I have become? At times, consiously, other times, against my will. It comes in things like "Columbine" and things like that, simply because they didn't like my music; not that they'd like my music, that would've been different. In fact, I think that I have--to my blame or credit, whichever way you want to look at it--more shootings than any other person in music. I think that there should be some sort of Grammy or something for that. I don't know, I'm not making light of what happened but if people are worried about what my music does, why don't you worry about what I would do? And that's my big thing on this record. I think everything on this record is an implied threat.
    I ended up living alone for the first time since... my whole life. I realized that less is more. The less you have to work with, the more powerful you need to make the stuff you're saying.

    ...

    I had the attitude [in the album] because I had to strip away everything that was in my life. Literally, I put everything I owned in storage except for my books, my movies, and my cat—and, you know, my drugs and absinthe and whatever else I might need; and guitars and things like that. So I put myself in a living area, I don’t know what I want to call it. Its like a studio. Its like an Andy Worhol sort of intention. I had a place to paint, I had a place to make music, I had a place to watch movies, and be inspired; and I spent the passed year with a lot of different people in my life like artists, painters, musicians—you know—directors, things like that. And the outcome is probably the most enjoyable year I’ve had in quite some time. And it was really a matter of having the same ambition, the same confidence, and the same determination that I did in the beginning; that I’d decided I was going to pick up a microphone and ‘I’m going to do this!’ This passed year, I learnt how to play guitar in the way that I play; its one of my ability that I’m quite proud of. My fingers hurt. But it’s the same way I felt, I guess, when I had to make… when I made a flyer for my first show and I didn’t have any songs. That’s kind of how I felt moving into a place with black carpet and white walls. I had an empty palette that I needed to fill with stuff.

    ...

    Restriction creates the desire to have the necessity or the determination or confidence to deal with your situation. It’s like a zombie movie, it’s like being in prison, it’s being stuck with one choice — survival. That’s what this record is. I was given a choice. When I started making this record, I decided that I didn’t like who I was. I didn’t want to be who I used to be. I wanted to be who I knew I could be — and that’s an evolving process. But the whole key to it is that if you stagnate, if you become something that no longer transforms — there’s nothing that’s inspirational about it. Whether it’s nature and you see a peacock, or whatever it is, you pick who you’re going to be in life and you need to be confident about it and stick with your gut instinct and don’t waiver.

    ...

    I’ve had the arrogance or confidence — there’s a fine line between the two, because arrogance sometimes is something that will end up being foolish and will ruin you. I had the confidence and determination to push forward something and I ended up having to make music to go with my decision. That’s pretty much what I ended up having to do on this album.

    ...

    I’m actually rather minimalist, almost in a Patrick Bateman, American Psycho way— just black floors and white walls, a two colour environment so there’s more creativity. I’m about to move into a loft — I put everything in storage except for my books and my cats and my paints and my guitar.

    When I started this album, I just felt I wasn’t living up to my potential as a person or as an artist as much as I wanted to. I didn’t want to be who I used to be. I wanted to be the person I was supposed to be, and force myself to make a better record than I have in the past. I realized that on my last records I was writing songs in order to make people feel what I was feeling. That’s not really the way I think artists should do things. You make art for people to feel something, but you don’t want them to feel what you’re feeling. So I had to do things in a different way.

    I just wanted to create stuff to play to people closest to me. So I would have my friends around, but I was isolated while making music. I was sitting there with headphones on singing while there were people in the room, which is like reading a book report in front of the whole class. You’re pretty naked. I actually enjoyed that. It made it much more exciting. It made me try harder to seduce them, pull them in, arouse their curiosity, excite them, piss them off, whatever. So this record sounds what it’s like to know me as a person. It has my sarcasm. And my evil charm.
    This record isn’t about anybody. The previous ones might have been perceived as being about this girl or that girl—and that’s what art was never supposed to be about. When I listen to my favorite songs, Bowie and the Beatles, I don’t think about who the fuck they were with when they wrote ’em. I just think about how it makes me feel.
    I am your vulture, your immoral sculpture, mirrorman who understands. I know you. I am you, your fantasy, reality.

    Don't be surprised I can look you in the eye. It's hard to take you serious when you take me inside.

    How the fuck are we supposed to know when I'm a monster in the way you refuse to die? How the fuck are we supposed to know if we're in love or if we're in pain?
    "Are we in love or are we in pain?"

  4. #4
    Hallelujah motherfuckers thatrussianman's Avatar
    Join Date: 05.10.12
    Location: Hollywood
    Posts: 295
    Rank: Brilliant Slut

    Default

    Excellent, excellent work.

  5. #5
    Not man enough to b human Manson15Marilyn's Avatar
    Join Date: 05.13.12
    Location: The redneck-burnout-midwest
    Posts: 426
    Rank: Glass Jaw

    Default

    Damn, I forgot to add due to that 11,000 text limit:

    If you have anything to add, ask about, or to offer about the album and any of its inspirations and their ties to the album; please post here. This is an open discussion about Born Villain in which we can all learn about the album together.
    I am your vulture, your immoral sculpture, mirrorman who understands. I know you. I am you, your fantasy, reality.

    Don't be surprised I can look you in the eye. It's hard to take you serious when you take me inside.

    How the fuck are we supposed to know when I'm a monster in the way you refuse to die? How the fuck are we supposed to know if we're in love or if we're in pain?
    "Are we in love or are we in pain?"

  6. #6
    A Better Messiah's Avatar
    Join Date: 03.21.12
    Posts: 347
    Rank: Brilliant Slut

    Default

    What if the "bedroom burial ground" and "bedroom grave" stand for the room which he locked himself in during the writing of The High End Of Low? Seeing that "Hey, Cruel World..." was written on that wall, and it does seem to tie in, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that later on. We really need some insightful interviews to shed some light on this stuff!

  7. #7
    Not man enough to b human Manson15Marilyn's Avatar
    Join Date: 05.13.12
    Location: The redneck-burnout-midwest
    Posts: 426
    Rank: Glass Jaw

    Default

    I know that, in a lot of his interviews recently, he's been talking about how he was locked in an empty room alone while he wrote the album. Do you think that is a connection since it would mean him being locked away in his own room?
    I am your vulture, your immoral sculpture, mirrorman who understands. I know you. I am you, your fantasy, reality.

    Don't be surprised I can look you in the eye. It's hard to take you serious when you take me inside.

    How the fuck are we supposed to know when I'm a monster in the way you refuse to die? How the fuck are we supposed to know if we're in love or if we're in pain?
    "Are we in love or are we in pain?"

  8. #8
    Reprobare marcam. brian219's Avatar
    Join Date: 02.22.12
    Location: Backwoods, Tennessee
    Posts: 715
    Rank: Crimson Soil

    Default

    I just wonder if the term "bedroom grave" isn't maybe some comment on sex that runs in parallel to the term "red carpet grave" seeming to be a comment on celebrity. "Your sex is dead."

  9. #9
    A Better Messiah's Avatar
    Join Date: 03.21.12
    Posts: 347
    Rank: Brilliant Slut

    Default

    I think both of these things are related, to be honest.

  10. #10
    Pervert on duty DrClitoris's Avatar
    Join Date: 02.26.12
    Location: Split, Croatia
    Posts: 260
    Rank: Brilliant Slut

    Default

    Well, yes, great work and I agree with everything, I just wouldn't call it the grandest concept album :/, it's not that grand, it's great, but not grand.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

NEWS | TOUR | BIOGRAPHIES | DISCOGRAPHY | VIDEOGRAPHY | GALLERY | MEDIA & INTERVIEWS
MANSON'S JOURNAL | ESSAYS & ANALYSIS | TIMELINE | FORUM | THEATRE | INFORMATION & LINKS