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Thread: Departure and Return of Twiggy - Your feelings.

  1. #11

    Join Date: 05.03.11
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    Last edited by Ulysses Black; 07-28-2012 at 11:40 AM.

  2. #12
    Catholic Girls with UZIs johncraze's Avatar
    Join Date: 02.08.12
    Location: Hazardland, South America.
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    Well, I discovered MM back at 2003, with GOAG. But it was just the starting point for me, because I really got balls deep into the whole Manson universe, when I discovered Antichrist Superstar. That album really was like a drill into everything I hated, so that is how I started checking the videos of that era compulsively, and noticed that even though if the stage was overblown with Mr. Manson's charisma, there was a band member that stood out on his own. Obviously that member was Twiggy.

    So after knowing about his existence, I checked the liner notes in AS, MA, and HW. And realized he is the "Marilyn" in "Marilyn Manson", half of the heart of what the band is about. So even though if I did like both GOAG, and EMDM, it felt like if the band were running at half speed, always because of his absence.

    About THEOL, I think it wasn't as great as some hoped it would be, because both were in a sort of depressing moment inside their lives. But with Born Villain, you just can avoid to feel the synergy between these two guys. They get the best out of each other, just as no one will understand Manson's vision better than Twiggy, and no one can get out the best out of Twiggy's creativity than Manson.

    They're creative soul mates, that will never change.

    And about the bass vs guitar position, well I'm in the "he is better in bass" bandwagon, because I believe it fleshes out the best of his musical talents. But he is the main musical composer, so he can do whatever he wants, even if I do miss the metallic stiffness of John 5's guitar; Twiggy brings a punk feel , that is raw, violent, and sincere.

  3. #13
    under the black sun iggy's Avatar
    Join Date: 11.06.10
    Location: Rochester, New York
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    I thoroughly enjoyed GAOG without Twiggy's presence. While Twiggy has undeniably co written some of Manson's best music, he is in no way irreplaceable.

  4. #14
    Muddy Knees
    Terrapin's Avatar
    Join Date: 12.28.09
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    Got into the band during Mechanical Animals. Twiggy was a huge part of what I enjoyed about Manson and it was VERY disappointing to see him go before they started unleashing GAOG upon us. I remember when first viewing that message Manson gave us on Twiggy's departure and being incredibly upset about it, but still retained faith in the direction of the band. While GAOG was pretty good by itself, I remember that was the first time I was marginally disappointed by a Manson release. Still enjoyed Skold, however, and thought he fit pretty well in the face of circumstances at that time.

    I completely lost my shit upon seeing the news of Twiggy's return when I logged into the Heirophant that day (like many of you have stated here). Essentially ended up running around my place pumping my fists in the air yelling, "FUCK YES! FUCK YEAH! HOLY SHIT!" I'll never forget that feeling. Hearing that they were touring again and writing music was all I needed to not miss that second leg of the RotW tour. Was a phenomenal show seeing Twiggy on stage with Manson again (along with the fact that they played Mechanical Animals and I wasn't expecting to see that). The band was insanely energized with a whole new breath of life and you could feel it all around. As a result, this remains one of my favorite Manson shows and tours.

    Twiggy has been a great member of Manson as well as all other projects he's been involved in. Having him back was important for us all. I'm glad to have him on guitar, even though people prefer him on bass usually, because I love his style of playing. Technicality is moot when it comes to style and songwriting capabilities, which Twiggy has plenty to show for.

    This was fun reminiscing. Thanks for the thread.

  5. #15
    AppleOfSodom's Avatar
    Join Date: 02.10.12
    Location: Porto, Portugal
    Posts: 460
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    I discovered and became a fan of Marilyn Manson when Antichrist Superstar was released. Didn't had the chance of going to a live concert and this stage but was already a big enthusiast. Always saw Twiggy Ramirez asMansons second half, both in terms of friendship and musical creation. He was always Mansons musical brain translation, so to speak. In the sense that he knew, and still knows, how Manson thinks and is able to translate that mechanism into sounds. Always looked at Twiggy differently when compared to several previous members bcause he was one of the few that soon realised this was more than a job. Twiggy knew that MM was first a concept, an idea, and then a band. So I think he identified with it and really lived it till this day. Thats why so many elements always come and go, because they simply look at this as an employment. Ramirez also left and returned, but it was on a different context. Manson and Twiggy just weren't working atthe same layer anymore. I mean, I think these two even lived with each other at some point so it was just a question of time till they need some time to breathe.It was an amicable departure. I remember feeling sad when it happened, but somehow trusted Mansons revigorated statement saying that things wouldn't be the same because they simply shouldn't ever be in a band called Marilyn Manson. And he was right till a certain degree. TGAOG was an amazing explosive era and I loved the record. Very different, still abrasive. But the absence of Twiggy was crucial at EMDM era, mostly because Manson didn't have his best friend around when he needed the most. In fact, there was almost no one around as even Pogo left just to sue him. All of this reflected on the albuns cohesion. Mansons depression started at TGAOG but I think it really evidenced musicaly later on. When Ramirez returned he recovered his best friend and musical mirror. THEOL wasn't their best effort due to alot of reasons, even sentimental ones, but also because it was a goodbye record. The last product under a major censorial boss that did everything he could to destroy the essence of what Manson believed as artistic. Twiggy was also coming from other different projects, some highly unfulfilling, and needed some time to tune again. Now they are the same corrosive duo they've always been and it feels good. I love seeing him on bass but just for aesthetic reasons, as I think he's great on guitar too.
    Last edited by AppleOfSodom; 07-23-2012 at 10:54 AM.

  6. #16

    Join Date: 03.18.12
    Location: Seattle
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    I discovered and became a fan of Marilyn Manson during Smells Like Children (and I have always been a fan of Ginger, Twiggy, and Pogo.) I've also felt that Twiggy has had a huge role in the band and it was really tough to see him go after Holy Wood. A lot of fans took it hard and many were saying his departure meant the death of Marilyn Manson. I remember being a little worried as well. I also remember seeing him in Perfect Circle (and out of make-up) thinking, "Holy fuck, he seriously left Manson for that? He looks like such a dork!" But before I get flamed for that, I do understand now why Twiggy left and I see it now as it had to happen, that he needed to get away for a while.

    I must admit though that I did enjoy The Golden Age of Grotesque, I was overjoyed when Twiggy returned for The High End of Low, The Rape of the Wold Tour (in Seattle) was probably one of the best Manson shows I have ever been to, I am not so impressed with Twiggy on guitar now or doing back up vocals (I like the idea, just not the "talent." I really think he should go back to playing bass guitar,) I am happy to see him wearing a dress again and we can only hope that the dreads will make a come back.

  7. #17

    Join Date: 06.20.09
    Location: Norman, OK
    Posts: 374
    Rank: Glass Jaw


    I was a fan of Marilyn Manson from the Smells Like Children era. I didn't know very much about the actual band though until the Mechanical Animals era. I'll be honest - Twiggy was the reason I listened to Manson. The very first Manson song I ever heard was Scabs, Guns & Peanut Butter, so it really truly started with Twiggy for me. When I heard news that he left, I cried for quite a while.

    I followed his musical career after that, and I'll be honest - the very first time I heard he was going back to Manson, I was incredibly disappointed. I adore Goon Moon, and it's upsetting to me that he's not getting that time in to do work on a project that I loved, and I'm sure he had a blast with as well.

    I have mixed feelings about it, still. I feel like Born Villain is leagues higher than THEOL, which was also leagues above EMDM. I much prefer Twiggy in the guitarist role over the bassist role, simply because I feel like he's got so much more potential working with the guitar, and so much more creativity than with the bass.

    This is probably one of the most disjointed and worst posts I've ever written here, haha, I apologize Provider Module.

  8. #18


    I became quite interested in the band sometime after Sweet Dreams but before ACSS. I had to remain a closet fan though up until the release of MA because of all the 'scary hype' and the fact that my parents were born again Christians. To me, Manson was someone I understood immediately, because we shared so many of the same views and had a similar sense of style. So in the beginning it was always the quieter members of the band which seemed most mysterious to me. They all seemed to have certain characters but you so rarely heard anything about them so there was a greater sense of intrigue. I don't think newer fans really understood what that was like because the band has been composed of so many hired guns and already established musicians.

    Of the other band members, the two that stood out to me the most were Pogo and Twiggy. Seeing their faces against that red wall in the ACSS album art, was equally intimidating and intriguing. The two of them, aside from Manson, also seemed to have the strongest live personas at the time. Twiggy was this gangly looking pervert and the way he played his bass every night was like a sex crime. At that time, bass playing was so passe in most bands because it was always overshadowed and buried under down-tuned guitars; Twiggy played his bass like no one else. Just listen to the live recording of Lunchbox on TLTOE for example. It just makes you feel dirty, like you want to either fight or fuck somebody.

    By the time that MA came out, I was a little older, and didn't have to hide all of my Manson albums. Up until that time, I'd been borrowing or copying his albums and that was the first time I could really keep and explore the liner notes. When I saw that Twiggy was behind most of the songwriting on ACSS I couldn't believe that he was so unrecognized outside of the band. It really felt like that incarnation of the band (beginning with MA) was the strongest and really brought out the best and worst (in a good way) in each other. When HW came out I remember reading an interview with Twiggy and John 5 where Twiggy laid out the whole album concept and the writing process. It was one of the smartest interviews I've ever read and it was like getting to see a new part of Manson's personality as well because they really felt like twins.

    When Twiggy left the band, I was somehow not surprised. I think at the time, having followed through the triptych, it felt like nothing that good could last forever. And the Tainted Love video seemed like a kind of step back for the band and it somehow felt like he wasn't in to it as much. Even though it was meant to be a parody it still kind of embraced all of the things that were awful about music videos at the time. And Twiggy didn't really look like he gave shit in it. So I was indeed disappointed at his departure but mostly worried about the future of the band.

    I admit, when GOAG came out, I was pretty 'meh' about it. That album was a real slow burn for me. In my opinion the singles just weren't as good as they used to be and overall the music on the album lacked the gloss and layers that made Twiggy's writing so interesting. It sounded exactly how I would have imagined the band would sound without Twiggy in it. Muddier and more coldly industrial. Eventually I really came around to loving that era but that was mostly because Manson put so much effort into the imagery/art and performances. And I did sort of learn to love the album as well but there are still songs on it that I'll skip and it's not in my top favourites from the band's catalogue.

    Then once Twiggy joined NIN I thought there was no chance he would ever be back. It may have felt like a natural transition for Twiggy but I feared Manson would see it as a huge slap in the face. When he eventually made his way to APC I thought he'd really found himself in a band that was able to appreciate him again. And it showed. The Thirteenth Step is one of my fav albums from the 00's.

    I didn't have anything against Tim but he felt like more of a set piece throughout the GAOG years and it just didn't seem right that he was replacing Twiggy on bass over LWF. As much as I loved the look and all of Manson's musings and side projects during that time, the live shows really liked that sense of groove and bottom end that Twiggy brought to the songs.

    It wasn't until EMDM came out that I thought musically, Manson, had managed to reinvent himself without him. Yes, this makes me one of those few that really loves the record, but when it came out it just sounded so sonically refreshing. It wasn't the same Manson but it was still uniquely Manson. It didn't sound like what the band had done before but it also didn't sound like anything else at the time. And unlike some of the other albums it's one of the ones that I still listen to all the way through. It felt like Manson had managed to make a record without Twiggy that wasn't trying to sound like Twiggy was still there.

    To be honest, I had mixed feelings when I felt that he was coming back. I think it was the right time somehow, but on the other hand I really liked where they were both going on their own. I think it was the fact that he was switching to guitar that really threw me off and how that for some reason meant that Tim couldn't be in the band anymore either. It was like someone saying "Hey, Manson's greatest collaborator is coming back, aren't you excited?" And I was all like "Sweet, my fav bass player of all time re-joining my fav band of all time!" And they were like "Well... it's sort of like that."

    Then as good as the live shows suddenly became what I wanted to hear most of all was the new music they'd be able to write together. Sure he'd switched to guitar during the live shows and that was... ok... but the new music was going to KICK ASS! How couldn't it?

    Then came THEOL... I've voiced my opinion on that record many many times already so suffice to say: it's easily my least fav Manson and there are really only a handful of songs I ever listen to off of it.

    It wasn't until Born Villain that I really felt the two of them had become that great writing duo they used to be. I wouldn't say it's as strong as the triptych records were but, to me at least, it sounds like the record the two of them should have been making together during all of that time apart.

  9. #19
    Cringeon's Avatar
    Join Date: 06.20.09
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    I got into MM really around SLC, and while I knew the band members I was more interested in just MM as the singer. It really wasn't until around HW that I really started becoming an equal fan of Twiggy and I was pretty bummed when left. There was a big change in MM for the GAOG era, and I think all the teaser videos and just constant updates really kept it interesting so I was still pretty excited for that record. I rocked the shit out of that album but kind of felt something was missing. It wasn't until I heard Goon Moon that I realized how much Twiggy is responsible for the MM sound. I was so excited when he returned, and was glad to finally see him in MM after seeing him in NIN and APC.

    As for the bass/guitar debate - I love him on both. He plays guitar different than bass, and I think that's what makes his writing so strong. He's done a lot of projects since MM, and I've heard a lot of him guitar and his style is just infectious to me. I think he has carved his role as guitarist more and more with each tour, and the current run I think shows even more of Twiggy's attitude because guitar is a lot more of a forward instrument than bass where Twiggy was more known for how he dressed and rocked rather than played. I think his playing matches his persona perfectly.

  10. #20
    You the Chicken Christina's Avatar
    Join Date: 06.20.09
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    Posts: 1,075
    Rank: Crimson Soil


    Antichrist for me and never STOPPED liking the band since. Even if I didn't like an album, I still appreciated Manson AND the band.
    I was heartbroken that he had left and it took me awhile to understand why he had left. I remember reading Manson's announcement about it and I could just feel Manson's disappointment in that announcement.
    I never have been one of those fans that disliked any of the replacements and I liked Skold but it was not the same! I loved GAOG but couldn't see Twiggy doing that album because it just wasn't him, so in a way, I think it was necessary and for the best for his departure.

    But now that he's back.... I'm happy about it. I really am but there is something that just doesn't feel right. I don't know how to explain it. Almost like something is being "forced." Who knows. Maybe time will tell what that means, but right now I'm enjoying seeing his and Manson's face when they are together. Like two kids babysitting each other that BOTH need supervision of an adult!

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