Departure and Return of Twiggy - Your feelings.

[Adonai]

MM, Twiggy and Sean Beaven have all talked about the recording process a bit, and that the way Twiggy approaches his recording is that he doesn't pour over things in the studio. He has his riff, jams it out and records it down with just a single mic. It's about being in the moment and capturing just a great raw performace compared to the people that labor over track after track, take after take - doing tracks, reamps, overdubs etc.

So you are saying that since Twiggy records ... everything in one take? ... that makes him "raw" and "record as a live player?" Hm. Interesting. I can kind of follow that logic, but I still disagree. I would be very interested in hearing / reading Manson, Twiggy, and Beavan talk about this. I had no idea that Twiggy does everything in one take, that's pretty cool! I wonder why Twiggy doesn't sound the same live as he does in the studio though?

If MM needs anything, it's more Twiggy vocals :D

Nooo!!! Ha ha, please for the love of Lucifer. Maybe in the studio, where they can make him sound better. Live? We can only hope he seeks help.

It's cool if people like a particular member more, but I had a lot of issues with Zum live who suffered from some timing issues, and who's live sound sounded more like someone covering MM songs in the bedroom.

I'm glad I have your approval, Cringeon, otherwise I wouldn't know what to do with myself! Well, I've never heard any timing issues with Zim Zum, nor this "live sound sounded more like someone covering MM songs in the bedroom." I thought Zim Zum was fantastic when I saw him live. I also think he is just as great in the studio. I wouldn't mind seeing him back in the band.

[Kollaps]

Wow, really. I would think the exact opposite to be true. I would think it would be much more difficult to conceal mistakes live than in the studio, it just makes more sense to me. Of course ... now that I think about it, I have to admit that I have not taken money and studio time in to consideration here. If you have to do it in one or two takes, then yeah, precision in the studio makes absolute sense. But then again, you only have to do it in one or two takes in a controlled and comfortable setting, not live every night in front of a crowd. With live, there is no going back. If you make a mistake you make a mistake (which I guess it can be labeled as "character?" lol) I also suppose being a master at improve would greatly help in those moments. I just haven't really been impressed with Twiggy live on guitar so far. It's cool to see him rock out, but yeah, my ears are sensitive and they tell me when they don't like something. Yeah, I do very much enjoy the studio recordings but I really believe that they are not the same.

I haven't played live on a stage yet, but I have spent about the past sixteen years in a so-called studio environment. It is definitely not easy, (especially if it's a mickey mouse ghetto set-up and you are the only one doing everything.) I know I can hit "stop," "erase," and "record" any time I want though. I can split it up, make multiple tracks, add SFX and other crap over it if I want. I hardly ever split anything up though, I try and play each instrument the entire way through and am not so concerned with precision. If I play songs all the way through for a friend, live and unplugged, it is definitely a lot more difficult and precision is definitely key (for me at least) in a live setting.

While you do have the option of retaking to your hearts content in the studio, all your flaws are brought the the surface very quickly. If you have issues with timing, that can make it frustrating for the whole band and isn't something you can fudge where as during a performance you do have the luxury of being able to speed up and slow down without it being very noticeable. Fucking up and hitting a few wrongs notes on stage can be masked by distortion, all the other instruments playing can mask mistakes as well. This is basically an impossible thing in the studio because everything is separated and given it's own 'space' to occupy within the mix so everything is very clear for critical analysis. Further on that point, sloppy playing in the studio is very noticeable but can be masked on stage by other sounds and by tweaking tones, adding a lot of reverb is a common technique for that.

I think Twiggy got a bad wrap for some of the early shows in the tour where his guitar tones sounded terrible and lifeless, but it's since been rectified and I think he is doing a pretty good job.

I'm glad I have your approval, Cringeon, otherwise I wouldn't know what to do with myself! Well, I've never heard any timing issues with Zim Zum, nor this "live sound sounded more like someone covering MM songs in the bedroom." I thought Zim Zum was fantastic when I saw him live. I also think he is just as great in the studio. I wouldn't mind seeing him back in the band.

Zim Zum did have a few timing issues, particularly noticeable during his performances of 'Lunchbox'. As I said earlier, he is probably my favorite MM guitarist - he made things sound very chaotic during ACSS. His post MM work also shows a lot of really great songwriting, unfortunately hes been really fuckin' around with actually putting anything serious out.

[Cringeon]

Zum's amazingly "album like" intro to lunchbox lol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzvM3odB1ws
(love how his overgained distortion kicks in right after the sampled intro, sounds totally smeared and choppy)

Tourniquet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGGhAx7_nAk
(his playing is just generally sloppy, and seems kind of weak when he's trying to do volume swells, or dynamics, even stops playing in some parts)

Zimless Horn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WymiDikJ_0U

The stuff I really like about Twiggy, just besides his groove and attitude is how relaxed he's being with changing up the parts and just being raw with them. Compare that version of Tourniquet from Zum to this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vVyS7tZRyU

Performances like this are exactly why I love Twiggy as the guitarist

True to the originals but still played with a raw/live energy that really makes in special compared to just hearing it played just like the album.

[Kollaps]

'Raw'. We get it! :P

[Adonai]

Zum's amazingly "album like" intro to lunchbox lol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzvM3odB1ws
(love how his overgained distortion kicks in right after the sampled intro, sounds totally smeared and choppy)

Tourniquet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGGhAx7_nAk
(his playing is just generally sloppy, and seems kind of weak when he's trying to do volume swells, or dynamics, even stops playing in some parts)

Zimless Horn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WymiDikJ_0U

The stuff I really like about Twiggy, just besides his groove and attitude is how relaxed he's being with changing up the parts and just being raw with them. Compare that version of Tourniquet from Zum to this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vVyS7tZRyU

Performances like this are exactly why I love Twiggy as the guitarist
True to the originals but still played with a raw/live energy that really makes in special compared to just hearing it played just like the album.

Somehow I knew you would be pulling out youtube videos of live performances at some point to prove yourself, which I could care less about because they prove nothing. I could probably find videos of Twiggy sounding like shit too, and every other band member for that matter, so I guess neither one of us is better in our opinions.

I still completely disagree with you, but that's OK. I'm cool with that. Moving on. =)

... in the studio, all your flaws are brought the the surface very quickly. If you have issues with timing, that can make it frustrating for the whole band

I believe the same thing can be said about playing live. I guess it depends on what kind of guitarist you are, what your style is, and what kind of band you play in.

... where as during a performance you do have the luxury of being able to speed up and slow down without it being very noticeable. Fucking up and hitting a few wrongs notes on stage can be masked by distortion, all the other instruments playing can mask mistakes as well. This is basically an impossible thing in the studio

I disagree. I also think those things do happen live with some bands, but I don't think that makes those mistakes good or unnoticeable. Why would you want to play sloppy live on stage anyway? Then again, I suppose that has to do with what kind of guitarist you are and the sounds you are going for. I guess some people like that sort of thing.

I can agree that being precise in the studio is key in a ultra professional setting, especially when time and money are factors (then again it depends on the situation, what you do and who you do it with) even though *I* am not so concerned about it for what I do. I never really notice, but that could be due to how I record and the equipment I use.

I think Twiggy got a bad wrap for some of the early shows in the tour where his guitar tones sounded terrible and lifeless, but it's since been rectified and I think he is doing a pretty good job.

I didn't think he was that good for The High End of Low tour either. If you all think he is getting better, then good! Glad to hear it.

Zim Zum did have a few timing issues, particularly noticeable during his performances of 'Lunchbox'.

I'm sure that's true for some performances, it certainly looks like you can find proof on youtube ... ... ... the same could be said about other band members too. Maybe not timing issues, but none of them were ever perfect all the time either. Manson has forgotten lyrics to his own songs before and has also had timing issues.

His post MM work also shows a lot of really great songwriting, unfortunately hes been really fuckin' around with actually putting anything serious out.

That doesn't prove anything or add anything valuable to our debate. So what? Besides, I believe the same thing could be said about Marilyn Manson himself. Oh well. I still don't particularly care for Twiggy on live guitar and back up vocals right now, I'm just not impressed (nor am I that impressed with the rest of the current show either.) Perhaps the next tour will be different. I am definitely glad Twiggy is back in the band though and I hope he stays. There is no denying that I love the guy.

[Hexon.Arq]

I became a fan just months before Holy Wood was released. Part of what initially drew me to the band besides the music was Twiggy's look and stage presence. I studied the band extensively early into my fandom and got a pretty good impression of just how significant his influence was, and when he left I knew that things were definitely going in a drastically different direction and was apprehensive about how to embrace it until I knew what the outcome would be. I was indifferent to GAOG--it has a couple of tracks that I really enjoy, and a bunch that IMO have all the musical and productional personality of a water-flavored sports drink--and by the time EMDM came out, which I did adore before gradually falling out of love with it after a few months save for a few songs, I felt like Marilyn Manson was nearing its end. And then Twiggy came back and everything was going to be rainbows and lollipops again.

And then THEOL came out. I was not impressed. Aside from the lack of cohesive vision and scattered production on the album, I just didn't hear anything that reminded me of Marilyn Manson. It was different from anything the band had put out before, just not novel or inventive or interesting. And I have to be completely honest, the "guitar hero" solo on "Into The Fire" is one of the saddest things I've heard on a major commercial release in a long time. Born Villain has been an improvement over that riddle, but after Twiggy's absence from the band and the products of his return, I'm just not really sure how to feel about him musically. I don't hate his contributions, firstly because they are in no way bad, and secondly because I can't when looking back on his body of work, I'm not sure where he ends and anyone else begins, if he ends at all.

I do have to jump on the bandwagon and say that I liked him much better as a bassist than as a guitarist, though I will admit that he has moments when he's playing live and I think, He was clearly capable of recording much better stuff than he did.

[Kollaps]

Somehow I knew you would be pulling out youtube videos of live performances at some point to prove yourself, which I could care less about because they prove nothing. I could probably find videos of Twiggy sounding like shit too, and every other band member for that matter, so I guess neither one of us is better in our opinions.

I still completely disagree with you, but that's OK. I'm cool with that. Moving on. =)




I believe the same thing can be said about playing live. I guess it depends on what kind of guitarist you are, what your style is, and what kind of band you play in.




I disagree. I also think those things do happen live with some bands, but I don't think that makes those mistakes good or unnoticeable. Why would you want to play sloppy live on stage anyway? Then again, I suppose that has to do with what kind of guitarist you are and the sounds you are going for. I guess some people like that sort of thing.

I can agree that being precise in the studio is key in a ultra professional setting, especially when time and money are factors (then again it depends on the situation, what you do and who you do it with) even though *I* am not so concerned about it for what I do. I never really notice, but that could be due to how I record and the equipment I use.



I didn't think he was that good for The High End of Low tour either. If you all think he is getting better, then good! Glad to hear it.




I'm sure that's true for some performances, it certainly looks like you can find proof on youtube ... ... ... the same could be said about other band members too. Maybe not timing issues, but none of them were ever perfect all the time either. Manson has forgotten lyrics to his own songs before and has also had timing issues.




That doesn't prove anything or add anything valuable to our debate. So what? Besides, I believe the same thing could be said about Marilyn Manson himself. Oh well. I still don't particularly care for Twiggy on live guitar and back up vocals right now, I'm just not impressed (nor am I that impressed with the rest of the current show either.) Perhaps the next tour will be different. I am definitely glad Twiggy is back in the band though and I hope he stays. There is no denying that I love the guy.

I wasn't really intending on having a huge debate with you on the subject, to be honest, and now that I've been presented with a wall of text I really can't be bothered biting back.

[Adonai]

I wasn't really intending on having a huge debate with you on the subject, to be honest, and now that I've been presented with a wall of text I really can't be bothered biting back.

Interesting response! OK, I'll take a win. Moving on. =)

[Cringeon]

I really like the influence Twiggy brought back from his time away from MM. He got involved with a completely different scene, and I think specifically just his work with Josh from QOTSA, and Chris Goss really made Twiggy's song writing voice even stronger. It's cool to see how MM handles an influence that I don't think would have came into the band without Twiggy and what he did in his time away.

[Kollaps]

I had a knee jerk reaction of disagreeing with you and bringing up THEOL, Cringeon, but I now that I think of it there was a fair bit of decent songwriting on it and it was pretty much just Manson himself that ruined that album.