The High End Of Low & Born Villain

[Celebrity Killing Spree]

I'll build you a shining dollhouse, a church where you can shrink into a tiny wight spider, and gorge on horrid memories with conceited wings HOW IS THAT NOT GOLDEN?!

That's two things we agree on then.


...Though it's mostly the end of the song that does for me because I find the guitar mostly monotonous. :s

[jembliss]

I love both albums for what they are. There is a special place in my heart for HEOL just as there is a special place in my heart for BV for two very different reasons. Both albums seem to have the same lyrical style to me the only real difference is the musical aspects of the two. HEOL seems to have more of a "rock and roll" tone to it sprinkled with dance type beats and BV shows elements of "heavy metal" with dance type beats.

[icon]

^ With all due respect, I disagree with almost everything you said there apart from I Want To Kill You being... not a very good song. The High End of Low is, in my opinion, an absolute masterpiece. Eat Me Drink Me is a little better, in my opinion, but The High End of Low is just... WOW. The piano in "Into The Fire" is beautiful, anything but cheesy. Leave A Scar isn't amazing, but Unkillable Monster is a stunning song. Perhaps I'm a little bias, because The High End of Low is the first album I ever really listened to (by Marilyn Manson). But holy shit, I'll build you a shining dollhouse, a church where you can shrink into a tiny wight spider, and gorge on horrid memories with conceited wings HOW IS THAT NOT GOLDEN?!

I like each album individually, and personally I do not compare any of them with each other. I understand others are into this sort of thing, however I am not. Just wanted to chime in and say that you aren't alone with Unkilllable Monster. It is a great track in my opinion, and probably my favorite off of the album. Everyone has experienced different things in life, therefore songs will take on a different meaning for some. Art is open for interpretation in all cases, and the contents of the these threads are just our opinions and should not be stated as a matter of fact.

[blue angel]

I Want To Kill You Like They Do IN The Movies is a fantastic song....so much HATE here!
It sounds alot like old Janes Addiction, different mindset.

[DecayingSinner]

I Want To Kill You Like They Do IN The Movies is a fantastic song....so much HATE here!
It sounds alot like old Janes Addiction, different mindset.

And that must be the reason why I hate that song.

[Manichaeist]

The High End of Low is barely a good coaster

[Manson15Marilyn]

The thing about I want to Kill You like They Do in the Movies is pretty much the sub-par lyrics. Plus, the title could have been worked on more. The music is pretty good, has a nice and mellow tune. But for me, the lyrics makes it unbearable.

[kleiner352]

(Warning: Ferabad levels of over-analysis going on here)


I enjoy Born Villain as a full album more than THEOL, but as far as song to song I think THEOL wins for me. THEOL and BV both suffer from the same problems in my mind though, which is that there are a few songs on each that shouldn't be or just bog the album down (I like We're From America but does stuff like that, Blank and White or Armageddon belong on an album predominantly about relationships and personal growth? No, they don't. And does Children of Cain, Manson regurgitating that Christianity is filled with hypocrisy, fit with the rest of BV? No. Does Disengaged, a blatant musical rip-off of Are You the Rabbit? belong on an album written by the Twigster? No. And neither does a cover song work as the ending to an album.)

BV has a nice flow and works well in context for the most part, you can break it up like most Manson albums into three sections or acts (first being from HCW to Overneath, then Slomotion to Disengaged, then Lay Down... to You're So Vain). THEOL on the other hand has little logical progression in terms of tracklisting and I find that really ruins it as an "album" experience. There are some great combinations, but then the wrong types of songs get thrown in and it shows. Some of them are too long in my opinion. I'd cut Four Rusted Horses down by half the playing time since it's REALLY repetitive by then end and doesn't hold interest after the first few minutes. Manson claimed BV was the first time he repeated verses but I guess he forgot about stuff like Four Rusted Horses. So if you took out the songs that don't fit thematically then High End would work fantastically as an album experience, but it doesn't while BV does.

Musically I think High End is the most original between the two. BV is like a retrospective sound-wise, with Lay Down Your Arms sounding like something you could have expected from a heavier Mechanical Animals, and Murderers feeling like it wants so badly to be Antichrist material. There are lots of references to past albums, with the Nobodies keys popping up in Breaking..., and Manson shouting "FATE FATE FATE" the same way he did with "FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT", etc. BV feels like it's making up for a lack of ideas by recycling old ones and hoping no one complains or notices. It's musically just boring by the end, and runs out of steam. THEOL has some pretty great compositions at times, with Into the Fire standing out musically, and most of the album doesn't feel like a repeat of the past records (ignoring I Have to Look Up... being a knock-off of I Put a Spell On You XD).

Lyrically neither is too strong but I think THEOL was more genuine and that goes a long way comparatively. Does MM sound that enthusiastic when he sings Slo-Mo-Tion, or Children of Cain, or Breaking the Same Old Ground? Not really. I mean his vocals sound bored half of the time. Flowers of Evil sounds like he was just counting the minutes left in the song. Then take THEOL where songs like Devour, Into the Fire, and I Want to Kill You... all have pretty genuine vocals and lyrics. It doesn't sound like he's trying to repeat an old album, it sounds like he was writing what mattered to him at the time and when he's singing on those tracks he sounds so into it. The only songs on the album where he sounds bored are the ones where he tried to please fans after everyone universally bitched that EMDM didn't sing about politics and how much America and religious people suck. The thematically core songs on that record all sound pretty genuine I'd say, even when the lyrics aren't all too special. Neither has strong lyrics throughout aside from a handful of songs on each (like Overneath or I Have to Look Up...), but THEOL has vocally the stronger performance and the lyrics as bad as they are at points ("Break off my arms sharpen my bones....", I'm looking at you here), when he's singing them they sound genuine.

Something for me though is that BV sounds like Manson was trying to just please the fan-base again. Only a couple songs about relationships, reusing lots of elements from his famous albums and trying to sound heavy again at points and aimlessly recycling lyrical subjects. THEOL does this on certain songs but save from those the majority of the album feels different from Manson's other records. Nothing on BV sounds like something from that album, most sound like B-sides from other albums. Something I value about Manson's discography is the variety album to album and how each seems distinct from the other, but nothing about BV is distinct to me. THEOL is very much distinct to me though, and in that aspect THEOL wins.

Song by song I like THEOL more, album-wise BV is better but both suffer from lack-luster lyrics at times and songs that don't feel like they belong. Both have strengths and weaknesses and both are steps down from how he used to be but both have glimpses of real, genuine talent and enthusiasm that we've not seen in full since EMDM (sorry everyone but EMDM was very much a genuine and talented record, deal with it). If I had to I'd put THEOL higher than BV on my list of favorites but as a record BV is stronger and more cohesive.

[Manson15Marilyn]

both are steps down from how he used to be

See, I've been waiting for something like this to rear its ugly head. Sure, they're not as popular now, but I find two major reasons for that: They're not getting all the negative attention anymore since they're not making bold statements about society and with that the positive attention because it pissed so many people off also went away.

But just because they aren't pissing people off anymore doesn't mean they still aren't good. Now, the way I see it, The High End of Low is better than Antichrist Svperstar, yet mechanical animals is better than both. But I also don't care about star-power or celebrity, I think its all about the substance. Plus, I do like the more mellow / laid back music more. I think it suits the band much better, since they're a Rock and Roll band and not a Metal band. See, I think people expect them to be this super-heavy Metal band like much of the other music they're generally into.

Don't get me wrong, their incendiary work in the '90s was very profound; I find it to be relevant even 12 years later. But everything had been said before and their wasn't anything to say anymore. If he kept writing about society, their work would get more repetitive. And, personally, I like the mellow and slower-tempo "bluesy" direction in which they're headed musically. I'm not generally in the mood for fast music. So on that point, most of you fans of old Manson can suck it. :P

[kleiner352]

See, I've been waiting for something like this to rear its ugly head. Sure, they're not as popular now, but I find two major reasons for that: They're not getting all the negative attention anymore since they're not making bold statements about society and with that the positive attention because it pissed so many people off also went away.

But just because they aren't pissing people off anymore doesn't mean they still aren't good. Now, the way I see it, The High End of Low is better than Antichrist Svperstar, yet mechanical animals is better than both. But I also don't care about star-power or celebrity, I think its all about the substance. Plus, I do like the more mellow / laid back music more. I think it suits the band much better, since they're a Rock and Roll band and not a Metal band. See, I think people expect them to be this super-heavy Metal band like much of the other music they're generally into.

Don't get me wrong, their incendiary work in the '90s was very profound; I find it to be relevant even 12 years later. But everything had been said before and their wasn't anything to say anymore. If he kept writing about society, their work would get more repetitive. And, personally, I like the mellow and slower-tempo "bluesy" direction in which they're headed musically. I'm not generally in the mood for fast music. So on that point, most of you fans of old Manson can suck it. :P

I don't think I said anywhere that I think they're not as good as his other work since he's not popular anymore. EMDM is probably my 3rd or 4th favorite Manson record and that is far from his most popular album, and CERTAINLY wasn't him writing about society, he was singing about love, passion, infatuation and loss. I just sincerely feel that High End and Born Villain aren't as good as many of the other albums. I love THEOL but I wouldn't call it better than the Triptych or EMDM. BV is okay.