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View Poll Results: Can you be a Christian Marilyn Manson fan?

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  • Yes

    32 71.11%
  • No

    13 28.89%
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Thread: Can you still be a Christian?

  1. #151
    YoureAlreadyHere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vertigo View Post
    Well, I think a few non-drug takers might have a problem with the video of S(aint), which glorifies the taking of drugs...but that doesn't mean they can't be fans of him nevertheless.
    Glorifies? Maybe you should re-watch the video.

    It has occurred to me, certainly, that the music matters more than imagery tied to it. It has occurred to me, also, that images, ideas, philosophies can be portrayed through lyrics... I also consider the possibility of fans that are adamant about the Instrumental music, which would make them a fan of the instrumentalists that play and write the scores. But lets get back to being a Christian that loves Marilyn Manson; better yet, lets stop kicking this dead horse. "It's just so stupid, really."
    --------------------------------

    Don't tell me what to do.

  2. #152
    Mexicanfiend's Avatar
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    I'm going to digress:

    This thread just reminded me of this one time, just right before I stopped going to mass (I was 19, I think), when my dad approached our local priest and told him I played guitar. He seemed interested, since there was a juvenile music group at church; but his face changed right after my dad told him that I "was able to play lots of songs, Marilyn Manson ones especially". And he didn't tell me anything else.

    A few years later I saw him on tv, sit right next to the pope in Rome. I guess he really had the passion for it.

  3. #153
    Married to Suedehead Shangri-LIE's Avatar
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    Can you ask stupid question and still be a Marilyn Manson fan? lol - You know, it's funny to me, even as someone who isn't a Christian, that most fans have barely even read The Bible, always use the most extremely stupid popular culture criticisms of the most obviously ridiculous parables in the Book and perceive all Christians as Evangelical, tongue speaking retarded people. I don't care what people believe in. The thing is that most people, fans, see the Christianity that Marilyn Manson portrays and rails against as ALL of Christianity. Sort of like what the MSM does to Muslims/Islam. They're just as brainwashed as the Religious Folks are. It's called Counter Culture Brainwashing. lol - But most people are to stupid to see that. Oh well, anyway.
    OMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOM


  4. #154
    Mexicanfiend's Avatar
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    I agree with you, Shangs. It is funny how many people criticize systematically christianity; yet they don't even know that inside of it there are many different groups and ideologies: catholics, orthodox, presbyterians, evangelical, mormons... all of them with their own set of rules and forms of cult. People don't even realize that the bible is not the same book for all of them, its version depends on which part of the christian world you're immersed in.

    Since I am strongly influenced by catholicism, I've always perceived the protestants as deviants, people who tried to amend what the church did wrong, but ended up in the hands of thiefs and opportunists, which misinterpreted even worse the original message from Jesus. The proof? Just look at the televangelists to see all what's wrong with them.

    The orthodox ones, in the other hand, have my respect: They try to keep the ancient rites and costumes, not unlike the ones the primitive christian communities from the first 4 centuries a.C. had.

    In the end, it's all a matter of worshipping the same god, but with different rites and prayers.

  5. #155
    Strange & Unusual Sinner Halo Infinity's Avatar
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  6. #156
    Rapeture Nemoris Inferioris's Avatar
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    If a REAL Christian is a fan of Manson, then either they are those who only listen to his Hits, or they don't listen to the lyrics and the meaning behind his work, but just like how catchy his songs can be.

  7. #157
    Athene noctua Xenia's Avatar
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    "I'm like a Jesus Crisis. Jesus Crisis. And I made it up for you."- You Know Who


    "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Ephesians 6:12, KJV

  8. #158
    Athene noctua Xenia's Avatar
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    Can you love Marilyn Manson’s music and still be a Christian?

    Well, the short answer, is yes…which is merely my opinion. The rationalization behind that answer is based on the idea that no-one can be exclusively labelled or categorized as anything. Human beings are convoluted and complex creatures. If you consider that “persona” is a cumulative collection of genetic disposition and experience. Nature AND nurture. In that sense, our perceptions and understanding of anything in existence, is based on what we have “learned” throughout our experience, whether by formal education or tutelage or by informal illumination.

    Of course, I can only speak for myself, but my personal experience with coming to know MM’s body of work had a tremendous impact on my belief system. My journey in life has taken a hard left since my introduction to the work of art that is Marilyn Manson. I readily admit that MM has served as a catalyst in the complete upending of my entire worldview. This is Heaven Upside Down.

    The granite walls of indoctrination have been obliterated into smithereens. I’ve shared bits and pieces of my experience in other posts here on Provider Module. I never self-identified as a “Christian”, for reasons of feeling “not worthy” of said title. But, certainly others in my life throughout my journey would have identified, or “labelled” me as one. And there certainly was a long period in my life when I aspired to become one…a Christian.

    I have incorporated a glimpse of the book, based on my experience that I am working to complete.


    Chapter 3: Dogma
    I have been educated regarding religions and spiritual philosophies throughout my adult life. I studied with several different Christian religions. I studied several different versions of the Holy Bible including the King James Version, the People’s Parallel Edition and the New World Translation. I studied weekly with Jehovah’s Witnesses for nearly 15 years. I wouldn’t say that I knew the Bible, but I knew some of various versions of it, and likely more than the average person.

    One would think that someone fascinated with the subject of religion might have been indoctrinated throughout childhood with it. However, despite the fact that my father’s family was highly enthusiastic about religion and that my entire family hails from the Bible belt, my parents had not raised my sisters and I in a religious home.

    My grandfather was a preacher and my great grandfather, grandpa’s father-in-law, was one also. However, my family of origin did not attend church regularly, but we would sometimes go on Easter and Christmas dressed in our finest. It was more like a pageant than church, honestly. And I never felt comfortable in any church that I had ever attended as a child. Maybe that was because my father was the rebel of the family. He was the only child of the four that my grandparents had that was not involved with church nor had any part of the family gospel group.

    “The Revelators” was the name of my grandfather, grandmother and aunt’s singing group that traveled around to different churches in the Tri-State area to make a joyful noise unto the Lord. My grandfather was the well-known bass of the group and his sound was unmistakable. I always imagined his voice as sounding like one of the trumpets spoken of in the Bible.

    I dreaded Sunday dinners at my grandparents’ house. Unless any of my cousins were there to play with. The dread was a result of the fear that arose from Grandpa’s after dinner “reading” and ranting of the Bible, when he would shout and yell, stomp his feet, slap his leg and cry. It was terrifying. It was devastating as a child to watch a grown man become so emotional over the reading of a book. And I didn’t quite understand it, but I knew that I didn’t want any of that, no part whatsoever, of whatever he had. He made Christians scary to me early in life.

    In adulthood I became glad that my parents had not bought into the whole idea of brainwashing us early on, so that we all had a chance to make up our own minds. Proverbs 22:6 “Train up a child in the way that he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it”. I mean, maybe it was a good thing that my father didn’t follow in the fanaticism that was so dutifully fed to him coming up. Because it allowed for his children to investigate, seek out and discover their own truths.
    ~



    I have continued on my journey, seeking and searching, only now I view everything from a different perspective, post-Manson. I began questioning everything, which is not a new idea, nor explicitly a Manson-influenced idea. Socrates, the father of Philosophy, was considered to be the wisest man of all time because he claimed, “I know nothing.” Taking that into consideration, if you know nothing then you tend to question or doubt everything. And you can’t learn anything new if you already know the answers. That has resulted in the biggest tragedy of organized religion on the earth.


    Another glimpse:


    Chapter 4: Miracles and Other Wonders
    After I hit “rock bottom” so to speak with my addiction, I really began to seek out something to believe in. I remember at the depths of my addiction that I would be so drunk sometimes that I would wake up in the floor, fallen over where I had knelt the night before praying, begging, pleading to God, whoever that may be. I prayed for truth, wisdom and knowledge in finding something that made sense. I asked for a sign. I prayed so much without an answer, or any sign of one, that I began to pray for death. I was looking for a way out of the mess I’d made of my life. I couldn’t see a way out other than a miracle. And if I couldn’t get that, then oblivion would’ve been a welcomed consolation for me.

    However, I woke up in the hospital one morning after downing a bottle of vodka, smoking a joint and deciding to get into my car to drive a couple of towns over. I was headed to the small town where my estranged husband was living with his new girlfriend. Well, she wasn’t “new”, per say, he had begun to see her while we were still together. And I had no intentions of showing up and being cordial, or hoping that they’d ask me in for dinner.

    Needless to say, I never made it to my husband’s love shack that night. I was told that I crossed the middle lines on the highway and hit another car head on. I was the only person injured, which I am forever grateful for. I don’t think I could have survived the guilt of knowing that I had hurt an innocent person due to my rage-and-alcohol fueled decision. My mother went to the police impound yard the next day and took a picture of my car for me. It looked like a crumpled up soda pop can. It really goes to show you, they just don’t make things like they used to.

    Soon after release from the hospital, I became involved in AA (Alcoholics Anonymous). I went to meetings with the intentions of it looking good when I went to court, relaying a certain impression to the judge. I sat in meetings thinking, “This won’t work for me. There is no Higher Power. I never got a sign and I never got an answer.” And, “ I am nothing like these people.”

    One of the most important steps involved with AA’s program regards turning your will over to your Higher Power, or God as you understand, or misunderstand, Him. The term “Higher Power” is used for atheists, agnostics, typical non-believers and believers of every sort. It’s sort of a “blanket” or generic term that can be applied in working the program for people who may have issue with “God”. Most addicts I have known are pretty angry with God, or at least feel rejected by Him, and most certainly after experiencing the “fall” to rock bottom, probably blame God for a lot of things.

    After a while though, I realized that I had absorbed enough in meetings, possibly by osmosis, that I no longer desired a life of addiction to drugs and alcohol. There’s nothing like an addict with a belly full of knowledge, and whether I had intended to get any or not, I had anyway. I became involved with recovery while serving out my sentence, community service, jail time, and loss of driving privileges, and all of the other legal issues that I had to deal with that arose from my brilliantly idiotic endeavor.

    Having such an inquisitive mind can lead one to wondering if what you think you know is all there is. The realization that I even survived such a horrid car crash, made me astutely aware that I must have had something looking out for me in the wee early morning hours of that fateful day. I thought that something had to have protected me from the milieu of issues of what-could-have-been and what-should-have-been. It couldn’t have happened by chance. Or just maybe, I did get my sign and miracle after all.
    ~

    That was 20 years ago. So, my experience led me to seek for something Bigger than I. After years of searching and seeking, asking and learning, I began to feel like I was Breaking the Same Old Ground. And THEN…Manson happened. Holy fuck, did he ever.

    Ironically, my son introduced me to MM’s work. My son was 18 at the time. He has always been my rebel and visionary child…an “old soul”. There have been times in his life that he has made me understand why some species of animals eat their young (haha!) But, overall I am so utterly grateful that I get to be his mom, no matter what that has brought, or may bring. And I would kill4him.

    I shared this in a post on PM related to a debate regarding flag burning and the impact MM had on me:

    “In the recent past I’ve become aware of how ingrained our culture is in separatism, the schism of humanity. Someone asked on a social networking post, “Why do YOU think people burn the American flag?”

    There were a plethora of responses, mostly alluding to the idea that people who burned flags were ignorant, disrespectful and should move out of the country. There were many hateful comments. I mean, those are possibilities but, I didn’t think it could be the only answers. Maybe they were making a statement or maybe they had a bad experience or maybe they didn’t give the flag power and reverence as “the majority”.

    I began to think…what are the basics of this thread? Someone did something unpopular, they were being judged and personally attacked. I thought… what is a flag?

    Fundamentally it is cloth, or pieces of cloth, sewn together in a specific pattern. Then I wondered, “Why are people so offended by the burning of pieces of cloth, sewn together in a specific pattern?” So, I began to respond to the post…

    “First we must ask...what is a flag? A flag is a piece of fabric sewn together in a specific pattern. Someone a long time ago decided that this particular fabric would represent something. Others adopted this idea and it became an accepted interpretation and social norm that this fabric should be revered and honored, because enough people believed it should be. It became a symbol...an idol. The fundamental truth is, it is a piece of fabric. It only represents meaning if you ascribe meaning to it. But, then you give a piece of fabric the power to elate or offend you.

    Who knows why people do what they do? Everyone has different perceptions based on their own life experiences. But, we all tend to look at another's behavior and say, "That's wrong! I would never do that!" It is easy to sit in judgment of others, but they have their own perceptions, too. When we attempt to read other's behaviors and motivations, we are usually wrong and basing OUR judgment on our own experiences. We don't know someone else's story.”

    Needless to say, I was attacked right away. The woman stated that she was “utterly appalled” at my response. Then she went on to ask if I had loved-ones who had served, shed blood or lost life defending our country and my freedoms. She also went on to ask how I would feel if someone burnt a Bible and (and I quote), “God’s wholly word.” Then she went on to say how this line of thinking was a danger to humanity and the snuffing out of hope. So, I responded.

    I don't believe I said I burned a flag. Nor did I say I supported, nor protested flag burning. I merely expressed an unrepresented viewpoint. And you were "utterly appalled" and went on a personal attack. In my opinion...THAT right there is the biggest problem, not just in this country, but in the whole wide world. THAT is the danger to humanity and the dashing of hopes. Not whether one ascribes meaning and honor to a piece of fabric, or a book or a torture device made of wood. But, that response kind of justifies what I said originally.

    I didn’t mention that I had seen a Bible torn and burnt. But, I remember the first time that I did. I reacted very similarly to that as the people on this particular post did to flag burning. I felt anxious and offended. It took me a bit to get past the idea of it, but once the swelling went down, I began to think.

    Growing up, my family had a Bible on a table in the living room. I was taught that it was special, to be honored and revered. You would never sit a glass on it and leave a nasty ring. Instead, you would gently dust it during weekly cleaning because it was special. You know, the funny thing is that I can’t remember a single time that it was ever even read in my household as a child. But, we had one and over time I came to learn that it was an extraordinary part of the family decor. And I didn’t realize the depth of certain things I had experienced throughout life, until I saw one engulfed in flames. Now, I say all kinds of “unpopular” things.

    This is just an example of objects, among the many topics, that draw the invisible lines in the sand that divide humanity into categories of “us” and “them”. Religion, nationality, political alignment, race, gender, socioeconomic status, sports team fan….I could go on and on, but, I won’t. You get my point.

    Why do you think there is such emphasis on differences, categorization and division?”

    ~


    "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Ephesians 6:12, KJV

  9. #159
    Athene noctua Xenia's Avatar
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    (cont.)...dang I am "wordy"

    I will never forget the way it felt to witness that Bible tearing and burning. The thought I had at that moment was, “I am going to hell to burn and be tortured for eternity for even watching that!”

    Today, I feel differently. It has been a Long Hard Road out of Hell. I have issues with my former perceptions of God and religion and the idea that something apart from myself has “control” of my life, my path and my destiny. My past ideations that an elderly gentleman wearing flowing robes with white hair and a white beard sitting on a cloud directing a convoluted orchestra of chaos, judgement, reward and condemnation seems like childhood fairy tales, albeit grim ones.

    I have now come to realize that organized religions and doctrines are all just different ways of describing the same idea. Based on the era and culture in which it was derived. I am not saying that there isn’t wisdom in those books, nor am I saying that I don’t hope that there is something bigger than us, and that there is something after this life. But, the Bible and all other religious texts are, in essence, BOOKS. They are books written by a group of educated and privileged men, NOT by a deity.

    I have begun to recognize a multitude of similarities between Manson’s work, even his older stuff, and the events in the world over the last few years. The direction that our world is going, almost prophetically, has been predicted or at least imagined through his art. I think about the Bible and signs and wonders that are discussed within the pages, and it is hard to not see the similarities in the world today. It would place us at least on the cusp or beginning of the Book of Revelations. And it might lead one to question whether the Bible is truly a prophetic piece of literature OR a complex script that is being followed and perpetrated by certain groups in power to lead us all into a New Age…and possibly a Depraved New World.

    I have realized that a lot of doctrine has been taken literally, when it has possibly been a symbolic, sometimes metaphorical, sometimes parable representation of ideas instead. But, Church…it is Big Business in the US and around the world; one of consumerism’s most popular products. And business is a boomin’.

    Revelations is defined as disclosure; the revealing of something previously hidden or secret. But, if you can learn to break down the walls built by indoctrination, read between the lines and synthesize information, search within, and remain objective…things can be revealed. Revelations come in 12.

    By the way, I don’t think this topic is stupid at all. I think that these types of things need to be talked about. I think a large part of what Manson does is to provoke thought and encourage people to question things.

    Carry on…and beat the damn dead horse. It can’t be bridled, of course.


    "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Ephesians 6:12, KJV

  10. #160
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    Well put @Xenia
    OMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOM


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