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View Poll Results: Can you be a Christian Marilyn Manson fan?

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  • Yes

    32 71.11%
  • No

    13 28.89%
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Thread: Can you still be a Christian?

  1. #21
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    Emma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MissZombilicious View Post
    I also say no. If you appreciate Marilyn Manson's work of art AND its meaning, you can't be a Christian at the same time. I give you an analogy: you can't believe in the Christian God and evolution, that's a paradox. Sure, you can become a creationist but in your heart you know that all you are doing is defending into absurdity.

    Marilyn Manson's lyrics (especially from the earlier albums) question everything about organized religion. They question the Bible and its content. They question blinde faith. They question Christian morals. So if you are a Christian, how can you appreciate something that questions everything that you believe in? You can respect the opinion that Manson represents, you can focus on his political message instead. You can be a "modern" Christian (so definitely not a Catholic or American Christian, but let's say, a Christian in Sweden) and defend secularity. You are maybe even for private faith instead of organized faith. So you can live with all the mockery of the priesthood. But how can you appreciate someone who is tearing apart your holy book? Respect his opinion, yes, if you are a good person, you can respect his opinion. But love that kind of art? Appreciate it for the sake of art and ignore its meaning? I am an atheist. I can appreciate religious literature and philosophy. But if there's any literature or art that attacks atheism and my opinion, I immediately feel like I have to defend myself. I feel like that what is being said is wrong and it loses all its beauty to me. It doesn't speak to me, it mocks me. Or let's get away from religion: I'm a feminist. If I read a modern (I am a bit of a relativist, everything up to the 20th century should be seen in its context) novel and women are put down in it, I feel the need to defend myself. If I listen to rap-lyrics and they describe women as mere objects, I get appalled. I have formed my opinions, I respect other opinions. But I can't appreciate them. I feel the need to defend myself, to argue against it. So how can you a strong-believing Christian and appreciate a piece of art that totally speaks against your belief? You are kidding yourself if you can do that. You are cheating on your beliefs. I can't respect that, I find it undefendable. I am a strong atheist and I would love for everyone to abandon religion. But I respect people that stand up for what they believe. If you believe in the Christian God and you say you love Marilyn Manson's music, you are not a strong person. You don't know who you are and you should really think about what it is you actually believe in. If you are an ecclectic, okay, but if you call yourself a Christian that follows the Bible, then something is either wrong with your faith or you don't understand what Marilyn Manson is saying.

    It could be all about interpretation. But really, in what way can you interprete many of the lyrics from the trypich as not "anti-Christian"?

    If you are a Christian and you love the music and art of Marilyn Manson, you can't be a true Christian, your faith can't be that strong and you should really question the labels that you put on yourself.
    But again isn't that assuming that everyone of faith, regardless of being chained to an organized religion, takes everything in the Bible literally? The Bible is a set of parables not a set of rules set in concrete and even if they were, humanity has moved on and therefore people are evolved. Saying that the Bible is a book written long after Christ and more a book of man's parables based on their belief.

    By this logic no one is a TRUE Christian, because no one adheres to 100% of the Bible and the so called teachings of God.

    Faith is what you make it, in the end of the day if there is a God, he will judge you on whether you were a good person, did right by people etc, and I doubt by the kind of music you listened to.

    Basically what I am saying is religion is not the same as faith and even Manson believed that. If you are a member of certain religions I am sure there will be a conflict but I would say more because of man's subversion of faith and manipulation of religion. The Bible says not to wear cotton, write on the body or eat fish - I would say it would be very hard to find any so-called Christian out there who adheres to those "rules", therefore in themselves not by definition of this thread "true Christians".

    To put a finer point on it, I'm more inclined to believe that those who chain themselves to man-made religions are less people of faith, they are more creatures of habit and upbringing and belief in false equivalencies.

    Faith is what you make it. Life is how you live it. I think you can do many things and as long as you are not harming, hurting or damaging others, the final judgement comes at the end and there are more things important in faith than the band you listen to. Manson doesn't "teach" hate, he teaches the opposite of that - something some "Christians" could learn to listen to - Manson teaches understanding and tolerance but he is against stupidity and ignorance.

    Again I think the thing is not to get so fixated on Christianity - if you are someone who follows certain religions then being a Manson fan may be against everything you have been taught, but if you are not a slave to those religions and just believe, have faith, then I think that's very different.

    And I think Manson fans who do have faith of anykind are more often not a slave to man-made religions.
    Last edited by Emma; 12-26-2012 at 09:55 AM.
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  2. #22
    MissZombilicious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emma View Post
    But again isn't that assuming that everyone of faith, regardless of being chained to an organized religion, takes everything in the Bible literally? The Bible is a set of parables not a set of rules set in concrete and even if they were, humanity has moved on and therefore people are evolved. Saying that the Bible is a book written long after Christ and more a book of man's parables based on their belief.

    By this logic no one is a TRUE Christian, because no one adheres to 100% of the Bible and the so called teachings of God.

    Faith is what you make it, in the end of the day if there is a God, he will judge you on whether you were a good person, did right by people etc, and I doubt by the kind of music you listened to.

    Basically what I am saying is religion is not the same as faith and even Manson believed that. If you are a member of certain religions I am sure there will be a conflict but I would say more because of man's subversion of faith and manipulation of religion. The Bible says not to wear cotton, write on the body or eat fish - I would say it would be very hard to find any so-called Christian out there who adheres to those "rules", therefore in themselves not by definition of this thread "true Christians".

    To put a finer point on it, I'm more inclined to believe that those who chain themselves to man-made religions are less people of faith, they are more creatures of habit and upbringing and belief in false equivalencies.

    Faith is what you make it. Life is how you live it. I think you can do many things and as long as you are not harming, hurting or damaging others, the final judgement comes at the end and there are more things important in faith than the band you listen to. Manson doesn't "teach" hate, he teaches the opposite of that - something some "Christians" could learn to listen to - Manson teaches understanding and tolerance but he is against stupidity and ignorance.

    Again I think the thing is not to get so fixated on Christianity - if you are someone who follows certain religions then being a Manson fan may be against everything you have been taught, but if you are not a slave to those religions and just believe, have faith, then I think that's very different.

    And I think Manson fans who do have faith of anykind are more often not a slave to man-made religions.
    You see, there is a difference between being Christian and being spiritual. Many people believe in a personal God but don't believe in a creating God. But then they aren't Christian, they are religious. There is a huge difference between the two. And the discussion here is about being Christian (a follower of Christ, a believer in the Bible, a believer in the creation-myth, paradise and hell and so on) and listening to Marilyn Manson. You can't love something that questions everything that you believe in. That's a mockery of your own faith.

    If you don't follow the Bible and you are not a follower of organized religion but you still believe in God, you are not a Christian, you are religious but not a Christian. I am neither. But I know that many young people these days are privately religious without following the doctrines of the Christian church. That's something different, that is not the kind of religion that Manson is criticsizing.

    And Emma, what you are doing in dangerous. I know, you might not think so. (Read Richard Dawkins, he is probably better at explaining it than me). If someone calls themself a Christian but they don't follow the doctrines of the church, tuey are still a member of the church maybe, they are enabling the nutters. People that lead the churches and many Christians still take the Bible literally. Or they are being selective. BUT: if you are selective and only follow the rules you find fitting yourself, you can't be a Christian. Why? Because if you have read the Bible, you know that God won't forgive you for breaking the rules. How do you know if his rules have evolved? Dangerous try, you will still be burning in hell with all the atheists. The ground for religious faith has not evolved, the rules have not evolved.

    Analogy: You can't be a evolutionist if you don't believe in evolution, in the whole entire idea, in the whole concept and all its applied rules. Science can evolve, science falisifies.
    You can't be a Christian if you don't believe in the Bible and grasp its entire concept. Religion doesn't evolve because no new Bible has been written. You still only have the old book to follow. Everything else is personal interpretation. The idea that everything is about interpretation is bollocks. It is not. See what happens if the Koran gets interpreted, radicalism. The Bible has to be understood as it is, when it was written it was meant literally. Write a new Bible, let God talk to you, get it universally accepted. Then you will have modern development in Christianity. Again, if you don't follow the Bible and you are not a member of an organized religion, you are not Christian. Your belief in a personal God is religious instead.

    If you are a Christian (following the Bible and going to Church) and you listen and appreciate and love Marilyn Manson's lyrics, you are going against your faith. You should be promoting your faith, you should prosecute heretics and atheists, you have to follow God's rules. By listening to Manson (and maybe even wearing a Manson-shirt, oh no!) you are going against everything the holy book stands for. There is no relativism in it. So think for yourself, are you really a Christian?
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  3. #23
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    I've never once called myself religious, as I follow no religion, nor do I call myself a Christian because I'm not one. I don't follow the Bible as its a series of parables written by man. I'm someone who has faith, I believe there's a possibility of something higher, but no man has ever adequately explained that and what they claim to explain is nothing more than mans definition of what would and shouldn't be.

    i agreed at the end of my post that if you follow certain religions then there is possibility a conflict BUT I also said that there are fairly few Christians out there - from my experience (and I've had my fair share of religions which is why I can't stand them) they all cherry pick.

    im doing nothing dangerous because I follow no religion, no doctrine and no mans concept of faith and I also am understanding of the fact that at least I am not being hypocritical as some Christians are who claim to be people of faith, extoll others who don't live by Christian virtues yet will cherry pick, as I mentioned, wearing cotton, having tattoos or eating fish for example.

    No offence meant but I think you have misread what I said in my post because everything you wrote when mentining me is against what I said.

    BTW I also happen to like Dawkins and have read and enjoyed and agreed with many points on the God Delusion. But again like Manson, I myself have no religion nor attend any church and don't look at the Bible as anything more than parables than can be used as examples of ways to live but they are not to always be taken literally and in the end of the day it is a man created book NOT the words of God - they are the tales of those influenced by their God.
    Last edited by Emma; 12-26-2012 at 10:41 AM.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emma View Post
    I've never once called myself religious, as I follow no religion, nor do I call myself a Christian because I'm not one. I don't follow the Bible as its a series of parables written by man. I'm someone who has faith, I believe there's a possibility of something higher, but no man has ever adequately explained that and what they claim to explain is nothing more than mans definition of what would and shouldn't be.

    i agreed at the end of my post that if you follow certain religions then there is possibility a conflict BUT I also said that there are fairly few Christians out there - from my experience (and I've had my fair share of religions which is why I can't stand them) they all cherry pick.

    im doing nothing dangerous because I follow no religion, no doctrine and no mans concept of faith and I also am understanding of the fact that at least I am not being hypocritical as some Christians are who claim to be people of faith, extoll others who don't live by Christian virtues yet will cherry pick, as I mentioned, wearing cotton, having tattoos or eating fish for example.

    No offence meant but I think you have misread what I said in my post because everything you wrote when mentining me is against what I said.

    With "you" I didn't mean you personally. More like "you" in a more general sense. I never thought that you were religious or Christian and from your previous post I understand that you were writing about religious people in general. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

    No offence taken Emma :)
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  5. #25
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    I think there are plenty of positve messages in Manson's music that ANY decent person, regardless of religious standings, should be able to appreciate.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by MissZombilicious View Post
    With "you" I didn't mean you personally. More like "you" in a more general sense. I never thought that you were religious or Christian and from your previous post I understand that you were writing about religious people in general. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

    No offence taken Emma :)
    No problem ;) I think it was the bit when you said "And Emma, what you are doing is dangerous" that got me. Believe me I've grown up around at least FIVE different so-called Christian off-shoots and seen so many different ways of them serving their God it sickens me.
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  7. #27

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    I'm noticing most of the people saying 'No' have some very strange preconceptions of what having Christian beliefs means.

  8. #28

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    ..: You shall not give false testimony against your neighbour. You shall not covert your neighbour’s house...wife...etc.
    Yeah. Many may think that true faith is like visiting a twelve-step program. "Ohh I saw jesus in the sundaymorningmist"..

  9. #29
    You the Chicken Christina's Avatar
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    If there were a God out there that would damn you for such petty reasons as enjoying the opinion and makings of one entertainer, then that is a God that I wouldn't want to be around anyways!

    If there were an intelligent human being such as Marilyn Manson that would look down on you(I don't think he would) for having faith in something you cannot see or touch except in your heart, then that would be someone I wouldn't want to look up to EITHER!

    My point being is that it's like having two friends that don't like each other. You can either be the bigger person and love them both equally regardless of their differences, or you can decide to betray one or the other for the sake of one relationship. Either way, the choice is really yours and no one else's. If you have a good relationship with your God(and only YOU know what that relationship is), then I wouldn't worry. You do what you gotta do!

  10. #30

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    I really like the music of a guy called Boyd Rice (NON / Death in June) who has had a lot of involvement with far right guys like Tom Metzger, with Provider Module being comprised of what seems to be American citizens most people here are probably aware about Metzger's sickening hate speech. Obviously, I find some of the things Boyd used to stand for to be completely absurd and paranoid but I can appreciate his poetry and musicianship and that's what matter to me.

    It all comes down to how comfortable you are with your belief system and how willing you are to take something from another belief system.

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