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Thread: Underrated's Understated

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    Default Underrated's Understated

    Songs like The Dope Show, Sweet Dreams, The Beautiful People, Heart Shaped Glasses etc have millions upon millions of views on Youtube.

    Fundamentally Loathsome has 39,000.

    While the contributing factor here is that the former examples were released as singles, it still raises an interesting conversation point - what Marilyn Manson songs are completely underrated? Conversely, what do you feel are overrated?

    I think tracks like Devour, FL, Vodevil, Into the Fire, and to a lesser extent Eat Me, Drink Me are some of the most obscure yet strongest tracks. These five in particular accentuate the band's versatility more than the entire Lest We Forget album. Devour has contrast and a sharp drop with an intense climax, Fundamentally Loathsome is incredibly melodic, Vodevil is superior to Rock is Dead or Disposable Teens in many ways, Into the Fire highlights than FL isn't a one off, and Eat Me Drink me is haunting and sinister, the sort of shit that would give little kids nightmares.

    Additional opinions welcome. O
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    Most underrated according to Kleiner (so you know it'll be true and I won't say something completely contradictory a week from now, because I've never done that with MM ever) for each album:

    Portrait: Dogma.

    Portrait's hard to say, honestly. It's an album that has its fanbase, and that fanbase tends to acclaim every song. Everytime a thread of "most underrated album" comes up anywhere, everyone says Portrait. Now, I mean, it's pretty obvious to me that if everyone says the same thing in reference to most overlooked or underrated, then everyone is wrong, because obviously the group consensus is that it's great and deserves acknowledgment, BUT PEOPLE DON'T LIKE HEARING THAT AT ALL because it really leaves them with EMDM and SLC to choose from, and does anyone really want to choose SLC?

    But anyways, onto Dogma: people cite a lot of songs as being the definitive Manson track that helps sum up portions of his career. A lot of people for all the Triptych years tend to point to things like Target Audience, and if that counts then I'll say right now that so does Dogma, in every way. It's tinged with industrial, it's got a heavier feel than a lot of Portrait but at the same time doesn't throw off a sense of balance, the vocals really mirror a lot of how he then went on to sing for Antichrist, especially live, and lyrically it's pretty much the "Marilyn Manson and Friends Bitch About Religious Hypocrisy," (Brian Warner and Friends wasn't as catchy) and if anything is classic Manson, it's that.

    SLC:

    There isn't one and I say that because SLC is not an album and I only put it here to reiterate that calling it an album is stupid.

    Antichrist Superstar: Deformography

    The obvious answer here is Wormboy. But it isn't, because again, everyone would say Wormboy, meaning Wormboy is actually generally enjoyed and ergo not underrated. No one ever breathes a word about Deformography, though, and it's a shame. Even I overlook and underrate this one often. Overall I think it, and Wormboy as well, which comes right after it, ultimately simply suffered from where they are at on the album. They're smack in the middle, and generally to me, songs smack in the middle aren't always the most noted or mentioned. Deformography's got a lot of things going for it, though; it's got a title that makes the Sisters of Mercy wish they'd thought of that, it's got fantastic synths and lullabies, it helps keep Manson's porn obsession going, it practically feels dirty to listen to this. Songs like Slutgarden have tried to be this again and it's never worked. Nothing's ever really reached that hardcore-sleeze vibe that Deformography really pumps into the album, and it's great.

    Mechanical Animals: I Want to Disappear

    Now to a degree I want to say Fundamentally Loathsome (it's the easy one), or New Model, but even then those are likely candidates and IWTD just never gets brought up. I've not once seen a talk about it, I've never seen it on a most-hated or most-loved list, ever. It's got that glam-punk vibe of MA going, it is the song that follows up the intro of "Omeeeeeega and the Mechanical Animals" and it's drum track just wants to be a Prince song so fucking badly. The snarkiness of MA MM is right there, front and center, and really to me sums up the Omega side.

    Holy Wood: Born Again.

    People hate this song so much. This is a big album, and a lot of the quieter songs are often called some of the more "beautiful" or what have you and get appreciated. Born Again and Burning Flag are both panned all the time, even by some die-hards (to be fair, BF did kind of help cause the "F-U-C-K" bullshit that GAOG suffered from, but ah well). Born Again has a LOT going for it. The second vocal track layered beneath the main, the chant of the chorus, the distortion and the buzzing guitars are all great. It feels like a punk-club shouting through the lungs of industrial. "I'm someone stupid just like you" followed by the resounding applause near the end really fits the whole album well.

    The Golden Corral of Grotesque:

    Nope, not doing it. Some people might say "Vodevil" but any song with "We're five middle fingers on a motherfucking hand" blows and that's the end of it. The worth-loving songs are oft-loved. Doll-Dagga got plenty of attention live, New Shit is still lauded, mObscene is a little overrated at this point, the opener and closer both are cool but not worth discussing, there's the slaggy boring section that people tend to hate and they're worth hating. Spade is the closest thing to an underrated GAOG song, and even then, it's the most commonly mentioned one so yet again, it's clearly loved (but doesn't belong on GAOG).

    EMDM: EAT ME, DRINK ME

    It's perfect. Sonically, atmospherically, vocally, it's just about all that album wanted to be. Skold really showed his value here and songs like this really make me disappointed we never got to hear more from him. This is the lyrical peak of the album, it's the conceptual and thematic crest and it ends beautifully. Rarely do I hear a Manson song and just get awed by the pure sound, but this one does that and the one (horrid) live performance of it just wasn't enough. This would be a BEAUTIFUL closer to a set (granted, I'm just not a fan of shows constantly ending on loud and energetic notes, which lots of bands do). It's the guitar on this that sold Skold as my favorite MM guitarist. The little "hoo-hoo"s at the beginning that are muffled, the guitar, the synths at play, the drum-beat, it all gels so wonderfully and it's one of the songs where Manson's vocal style for that album really soared and fit. The ending that feels almost watery and has that ultra-tiny heart-beat-esque beat beneath it (and it wasn't until I got good headphones that I even heard this) really suits it. No big bang, just, fades out. We got our Alice, our Nabokov, our romance and our vampire fix all in this one song and it's still the best and most fitting title track he's done. It purely IS this album.

    The High End of Low: I Want to Kill You . . .

    The title is fuckin' cheesy as all hell. The general theme is childish as all hell. The whole song is just "I hate you and am whiney". And it WORKS. It works great. I've always said there are two sides of THEOL: the one MM wanted to make and the one MM felt forced to make. Well, this is part of what he wanted to make. It's moody and atmospheric and a little goth-rocky and has tinges of EMDM left upon it but just a little more violent, and it pays off because it doesn't try to be anything but those things. It's genuine and it sells it.

    Born Villain: The Gardener

    It's kinda bullshit to say that. I mean, again, all the best songs have been loved on hard. All the worst have caught their flack. I'm going with Gardener just because I still think it deserves more love than it gets. His spoken word verses are just so Iggy Pop to me, and it feels fresh and different and I'm all about the fresh and the different with MM.



    Well that's it. If you disagree with any of this, you are wrong.
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    Remix & Repent = EP / Smells Like Children = LP

    I get people don't want to call SLC a proper studio album, but it's definitely beyond EP clocking in at pretty much the same length as GAOG and EMDM (and pretty much Portrait if you minus all the phone ringing). So I suppose proper classification would put as a Remix/Covers album, but EP's typically clock in or under 30min. I just don't know many EP's that get pressed on 2x 180g LPs.

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    Oh Kleiner you so crazy el oh el

    Most underrated song? Probably "Suicide Snowman," because the snowman didn't deserve that. No, not that song. I can't say "Arma . . . geddon" because I've already blathered too much about it, but I'll never feel like that song gets enough love. I don't know. "Better of Two Evils" is a lost classic maybe??????????? It is not.

    The answer is "The Death Song". That one should have a more lasting legacy than it's really gotten.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cringeon View Post
    Remix & Repent = EP / Smells Like Children = LP

    I get people don't want to call SLC a proper studio album, but it's definitely beyond EP clocking in at pretty much the same length as GAOG and EMDM (and pretty much Portrait if you minus all the phone ringing). So I suppose proper classification would put as a Remix/Covers album, but EP's typically clock in or under 30min. I just don't know many EP's that get pressed on 2x 180g LPs.
    Out of sixteen songs, eight of them are actual "song" songs. Three of those songs are actually Marilyn Manson and Pals covering something, so the majority here are remixes. One of them is the redneck rendition of Cake and Sodomy, and in a way that's someone else covering the band, but they're not getting that one here because I don't want to give it.

    So the things goes like this: one redneck with a gee-tarr, three covers, four remixes and eight tracks of an old lady going on about piss and shit and pills, Frankie getting fucked, Phil Donahue getting turned into Satan and hell, there's even several minutes of silence on the last track.

    Even if you're a big fan and consider this well made, it's still not something that deserves discussion when you're talking about just the albums and proper songs. Hell, as a NIN fan I adore Further Down the Spiral, but I've not once listed it in an album discussion unless if album was prefaced with the word remix.
    Last edited by kleiner352; 07-09-2013 at 06:14 PM.
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    The Head Like A Hole single went for longer than Pretty Hate Machine, but that does not make it an album. There's more to defining an album than just length.
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    Manson has a tendency, to our benefit, of writing long albums. I know plenty of other albums that are WAY shorter (and in turn, makes EVERY song memorable and a "hit". Just a quick example-- Rob Zombie's Hellbilly Deluxe has 13 songs. 3 of which are an intro, outro, and an instrumental. Another song only about 1:50. And yet another song is a 2:30 sampled song. As far as "real" songs to be considered for playing live, there are only about 8 songs, making this album short, but long lasting. It leaves you wanting more, it has great re-play value and it's quite possibly a trick to make every song stand out better. Nothing is really forgotten. Of course, when it's one of your favorite bands, you wish they record double the amount.

    Manson on the other hand generally never releases less than 14 songs, seldom having any intro's/outro's or mid album instrumentals. Every song is a real rock song with him singing.

    That being said, of course an album like Holy Wood will have a lot of forgotten songs. It's damn near two albums in one. It's probably a lot easier for people to remember Eat Me Drink Me than Holy Wood, because it's only 11 tracks.

    Also, I've always loved Born Again. It's actually one of my favorites. And I never understood the fanatical love for the song Eat Me Drink Me. I don't dislike it, but I think it's a weaker track. It's one of my least liked title tracks. The best of course being the songs Antichrist Superstar and Mechanical Animals. I think Red Carpet Grave is GROSSLY under rated. Manson never even played it live. And despite what anyone else may thing, I feel that song has the perfect chorus that actually properly summarized the vibe of the ENTIRE album. "There's the one's that you love, the one's that love you, the one's that make you cum, the one's that make you come unglued" Need anything else be said? Those four chorus lines captures the overall point of the whole album. Are You The Rabbit already gets lots of attention, but as far as condensing an entire albums idea's into a simple line or two, that song also has a great summary-- "Are you the rabbit or the headlights?" That question is a great question to ask yourself and a big part of the album as a whole. A close second under rated candidate would be They Said That Hell's Not Hot. Another amazing song.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M Tragedy666 View Post
    of course an album like Holy Wood will have a lot of forgotten songs. It's damn near two albums in one. It's probably a lot easier for people to remember Eat Me Drink Me than Holy Wood, because it's only 11 tracks.

    I never understood the fanatical love for the song Eat Me Drink Me. I don't dislike it, but I think it's a weaker track. It's one of my least liked title tracks. The best of course being the songs Antichrist Superstar and Mechanical Animals. I think Red Carpet Grave is GROSSLY under rated. Manson never even played it live. And despite what anyone else may thing, I feel that song has the perfect chorus that actually properly summarized the vibe of the ENTIRE album. "There's the one's that you love, the one's that love you, the one's that make you cum, the one's that make you come unglued" Need anything else be said? Those four chorus lines captures the overall point of the whole album. Are You The Rabbit already gets lots of attention, but as far as condensing an entire albums idea's into a simple line or two, that song also has a great summary-- "Are you the rabbit or the headlights?" That question is a great question to ask yourself and a big part of the album as a whole. A close second under rated candidate would be They Said That Hell's Not Hot. Another amazing song.
    pretty sure Holy Wood is longer than originally intended. I think it was supposed to be like 16 or 17 songs or somethin, but then right around the release Manson decided to add a few more.

    I'm not a huge fan of the EMDM song either, its alright but i never listen to it

    I like the music in hells not hot, the organ especially

    "I'm a strip, strip, strip, and I flicker, flick, flick, flick
    A flicker of celluloid and there's holes, holes, holes
    In my everything"


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    Quote Originally Posted by kleiner352 View Post
    Out of sixteen songs, eight of them are actual "song" songs. Three of those songs are actually Marilyn Manson and Pals covering something, so the majority here are remixes. One of them is the redneck rendition of Cake and Sodomy, and in a way that's someone else covering the band, but they're not getting that one here because I don't want to give it.

    So the things goes like this: one redneck with a gee-tarr, three covers, four remixes and eight tracks of an old lady going on about piss and shit and pills, Frankie getting fucked, Phil Donahue getting turned into Satan and hell, there's even several minutes of silence on the last track.

    Even if you're a big fan and consider this well made, it's still not something that deserves discussion when you're talking about just the albums and proper songs. Hell, as a NIN fan I adore Further Down the Spiral, but I've not once listed it in an album discussion unless if album was prefaced with the word remix.
    This thread wasn't just about albums, but underrated songs - OP even brought up Sweet Dreams which can be found where? Even MM referred to SLC as "an album that looks like an album for children that is not for children". If you don't like it that's fine, but Smells Like Children I think had almost a bigger play in what Marilyn Manson became (especially visually) than the Portrait era. It's the first release to feature Ginger and Twiggy which really shaped everything leading to ACSS, and the band even did a tour in support of it. You can call it an EP because it features only X "actual" songs, but not everything has to be a verse-chorus song to be part of an album. Then again let's just use what EP and LP actual stand for and of course it's going in LP because of length. And since most of these "remixes" actually included both new musical performances and rerecorded vocals specifically for SLC - I think it separates it a bit more than just a remix of the Portrait album versions.

    Good thing you bring up NIN though, it's not like Broken would ever be counted in underrated songs with only 6 "actual songs" two of which being covers... o.O?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cringeon View Post
    This thread wasn't just about albums, but underrated songs - OP even brought up Sweet Dreams which can be found where? Even MM referred to SLC as "an album that looks like an album for children that is not for children". If you don't like it that's fine, but Smells Like Children I think had almost a bigger play in what Marilyn Manson became (especially visually) than the Portrait era. It's the first release to feature Ginger and Twiggy which really shaped everything leading to ACSS, and the band even did a tour in support of it. You can call it an EP because it features only X "actual" songs, but not everything has to be a verse-chorus song to be part of an album. Then again let's just use what EP and LP actual stand for and of course it's going in LP because of length. And since most of these "remixes" actually included both new musical performances and rerecorded vocals specifically for SLC - I think it separates it a bit more than just a remix of the Portrait album versions.

    Good thing you bring up NIN though, it's not like Broken would ever be counted in underrated songs with only 6 "actual songs" two of which being covers... o.O?
    I was saying nothing about counting SLC in the underrated song category. If you read my first post, I say I'm doing the albums. Not EPs. Not singles. Not iPhone recordings. Albums. I tossed SLC in there as both a joke and to make a point that people incorrectly count it as an album, which people often do, just as people do with Broken by NIN (which I did not mention whatsoever and never called an album).

    Don't see why you feel the need to argue with me on this non-issue just because you missed a word.
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