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Thread: Born Villain as Antichrist Superstar

  1. #1

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    Default Born Villain as Antichrist Superstar

    So, as pretty much everyone here knows, Manson has said that Antichrist Superstar is a message sent by Modern Manson to 90s Manson, and that Born Villain is that message. So, I figured, rather than looking at specific songs and their references to outside things, we should take a look at the song-to-song connections between the two. Now, this is a little hard, because Manson lopped off two songs from Born Villain, because apparently it was "too long", a common criticism of ACSS by both normal people and Scott/Daisy. At first, I assumed it this would make the comparisons harder, because it seems impossible to figure out where they were placed. However, placing the track listings side by side, they have to come after track 12, as on both albums, #12 is the title track. And yes, we're counting "You're So Vain". And additionally, we'll take Manson completely seriously on his claims of time travel album messages, because it's the premise of this and it's interesting.

    1. Hey, Cruel World/Irresponsible Hate Anthem

    From a purely superficial level, the similarities are obvious, being angry three-word-title attacks on the world. On a more in-depth level, Irresponsible Hate Anthem opens with "When you are suffering, know that I have betrayed you", just as the album ends, therefore being a circle, fated to repeat for eternity. While faith in the Worm/Disintegrator/Antichrist Superstar doomed humanity in the album, the true cause is fate. They're fated to die every time you play the album. With or without faith, fate decrees it repeats. Similarly, Hey, Cruel World repeats the mantra of not needing faith, as "We've got fucking fate", and needless to say, the Antichrist Superstar is "among no one", fated to be alone, much like Manson in Hey, Cruel World.

    2. No Reflection/The Beautiful People

    Again from a superficial level, one is Grammy-nominated and one is Manson's most famous original song. They're both catchy and slightly repetitive. While many have said that the "crushing, cheating, changing" in No Reflection is about the Triptych, perhaps it is more about The Worm/etc/etc. For not only does The Worm change in many ways, but so do those around him and his own actions. After trying to help those around him, he betrays them, cheating them of their dreams and crushing humanity. Of course, the Biblical Antichrist is the same, cheating his followers via taking over the world, a change, and crushing everything. "This'll hurt you worse than me" could also allude to "The Beautiful People" hurting his critics, religious figures and those opposed to him in general more than their attacks and hatred of it hurt him. However, tonally, No Reflection is the inverse of The Beautiful People. While The Beautiful People is hate and anger and attacks, No Reflections is uncertainty, introspection and self-destruction. However, even No Reflection seems to acknowledge it's age, with "Rusty signs of something violent coming" and "made of scars and filled with my old wounds". In fact, The Beautiful People seems to be directed at No Reflection. The Beautiful People is a rejection of something older, something weaker, something Manson sees as blind. A solid argument can be made that there's nothing Marilyn Manson hates more than himself. The Beautiful People's proclamation that "capitalism has made it this way, old-fashioned fascism will take it away" can also be seen as a description of Modern Manson. Interscope made demands of what Manson should do, how he should be, and what should be singles and videos. With Hell, Etc, he now has full control of every detail, old-fashioned fascism. In fact, The Beautiful People is a call against much of what Modern Manson is. He no longer hates "every motherfucker that's in his way", but is far more laid back. He's now the leader of his own vanity label, like his mentor before him. To young Manson, old Manson would be one of The Beautiful People.

    3. Pistol Whipped/Dried Up, Tied and Dead To The World

    Both songs are directed at a lover, and both are from a violent male point of view. In both, Manson is the person's lover, while also hating them. Not too much to get in to here, at least not to me. Both feel kinda like filler.

    4. Tourniquet/Overneath The Path of Misery

    From a superficial point, both have really, really weird videos, although technically OTPM's is a trailer for the album as a whole. Tourniquet is a more subtle song about the decay and death and death of love despite fighting it

    Quote Originally Posted by Tourniquet
    I wrapped our love in all this foil
    Silver tight like spider legs
    I never wanted it to ever spoil
    but flies will lay their eggs
    Overneath is a powerful rejection of another, from a much older and more experienced in the matters of the heart Manson. In fact, this Manson is seeking the ability to return to how he was before, to "unswallow his pride" and "fuck [himself] down" (to fix being fucked up, I'd assume). Meanwhile, in Tourniquet, we see a more remorseful, mournful, sad Manson, one who swallows his pride and is submissive to another, letting them take it all out on him and even trying to make sure they don't hurt. This younger Manson takes rejection the opposite of the elder, with submission instead of rage. While Tourniquet ends with the declaration "I never ever believed in me", Overneath has a far more in control Manson having instead turned rejection around and back at the other, along with affirming himself of his believed meaning of life: no reason.

    5. Slo-Mo-Tion/Little Horn

    Despite on the surface looking unrelated, these two have the same theme: stardom and Celebritarianism. In both songs, there is a clear message of celebrity worship. With Little Horn, it's most obvious in the chorus, with "the world [spreding] it's legs for another star", "the worms... [waiting] with bated breath" and the "dead... [dancing] for what is left". Slo-Mo-Tion, meanwhile, is a song of the culture and worship, of the lies behind the scenes, with applause and laughter recorded in the 1950s, backroom casting couches and, like the Little Horn, everyone finding this beast "incredibly charming"

    6. The Gardener/Cryptorchid

    Both songs are odder than the rest, with The Gardener being partially spoken-word and Cryptorchid being weird and distorted, with strange sounds. Both are about something not human, unable to fit in, but becoming something that does. Lyrically, however, Cryptorchid lacks The Gardener's anti-romantic themes. There's not much here to compare.

    7. The Flowers of Evil/Deformography

    Someone else might see something here. I do not.

    8. Children of Cain/Wormboy

    Children of Cain has been picked lyrically apart, and Wormboy doesn't have much to analyze. Wormboy is about The Worm slipping and falling apart. Children of Cain is very Biblically linked (and Enoch, a descendant of Cain, had a coded connection to the Knights' Templar version of the Cross of Lorraine, so there's that). However, Children of Cain seems to be directed at... someone. Someone Manson feels needs to die twice, who even when he is with physically, he is not with, whose duo's death they never thought was a bridge they'd cross. While most of the book-eating in Children of Cain is directly in the Bible, with John and the Angel, "bitter stories" was not. Wormboy, meanwhile, is the only Antichrist Superstar song to have never been played live. Wormboy is also the song that incorporated most of Daisy's ideas, according to Manson. Daisy tells many of the stories that Manson does differently, and on both sides, the way they're told make the teller look good. Both could be safely assumed to be bitter at each other, and as someone who has seen the comments on Daisy/Scott's posts on Facebook, if that bitterness is gone, he certainly doesn't mind fostering it in others. So, yeah.

    9. Disengaged/Mister Superstar

    "The only thing forever is hate" is a lesson The Worm/Antichrist Superstar learns quite well in Mister Superstar. Fittingly, it comes from Disengaged. He regrets his fame, and regret is a mantra of Disengaged. In Disengaged, Manson would give anything to kill the subject of the song, a hatred the Worm is learning in Mister Superstar. Whether they are with him or against him, he forever hates them, similarly to "you're with me, against me, but the only thing forever is hate".

    10. Lay Down Your Goddamn Arms/The Angel With The Scabbed Wings

    The one common thing between these, other than being some of the heavier songs on their respective albums is the convergence of "sketch a little keyhole for looking-glass people" (oh, hey, an Alice reference this far back, that's rare) and "There isn't a key you can use on me". So, if these have anything in common other than harder songs with long titles, Manson is a sketched keyhole.

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  3. #2

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    11. Murderers Are Getting Prettier Every Day/Kinderfeld

    Unless the horrid voices of someone else's angels are Jack (related to "Jack Eats Dinner"? Who knows!) and the other non-Worm person in Kinderfeld, I again see nothing. I'm sure Manson would, though. However, despite my lack of sleep, I'm still not seeing it.

    12. Born Villain/Antichrist Superstar

    They're the title tracks. Okay, that's obvious. In Born Villain, there's the lyric "There is a taste for blood, and it's something deep inside", which could certainly describe the Antichrist Superstar. As this is his becoming, so can the "become" repeating in the song. Additionally, the lyrics

    You'll have to cut it down
    And burn me into splinters
    Or I'll unwrap the string
    That was me
    Around your finger
    And I'll hang you in
    Your bedroom burial ground
    could be from the Antichrist Superstar's perspective, proclaiming that he's no longer wrapped around everyone's finger. Additionally, the Antichrist Superstar certainly would be described as a Born Villain, with fate decreeing that he would become the Disintegrator.

    13. Breaking The Same Old Ground/1996

    By becoming what he wanted to be, the Worm has now become what we, the audience, want him to be. He has become the Antichrist Superstar. And so, while out looking for something new, he found out how to be what we want. However, additionally, 1996 has gotten into a bit of trouble with Scott/Daisy, as it rips off the Spooky Kids song "She Isn't My Girlfriend", which he owns. So, in that way, it is breaking the same old ground. Additionally, 1996 and Antichrist Superstar pretty much say the same thing in different ways, another way that it's breaking the same old ground. And, of course, ACSS is a circle.

    14. You're So Vain/The Reflecting God

    He's calling himself God now. The Antichrist Superstar sure can be said to be vain. Sorry, there's pretty much nothing here.


    *
    So, yeah. At times, it lines up pretty well. Others, it's grasping for straws, and sometimes, it's so far off it's not even funny. Now, there's obviously the idea that they're out of order, but that's allowing far too much choice on the analyst's part for me. Who knows, maybe Manson has a long and reasonable explanation for it? Perhaps he could make us see the obvious relation for every song we're all missing? We'll never know, and I don't see it half the time. Maybe you guys do.

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    Obviously by definition of the section we're in, the records are open to interpretation, but I'm not sure Born Villain is meant as a direct response or correlation to anything on Antichrist Superstar. As Antichrist was released, Manson explained in interviews that it was a 'message from the future, recorded in the past' [paraphrased]. He referred to his dream cycles preceding the album's creation, claiming "I feel like I've dreamed half of my life that hasn't happened yet, so a lot of times I'm going along, and I do stuff, and I know that I've done it" [1997, Rolling Stone].

    To be honest, the majority of 'predictions' Manson discussed were realised in the three years following Dead To The World and culminating in the release of Holy Wood. That's one of the reasons Manson chose to align three albums as 'The Triptych', because the events that actually took place in his life - either by coincidence or design - over the course of Mechanical Animals and Holy Wood were easily comparable to the fictional accounts on Antichrist Superstar.

    The record that was probably closest to embodying the Antichrist Superstar from a more recent perspective using the 'Rise & Fall/Fall & Rise' motif is The High End Of Low.

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    Quote Originally Posted by S.D. View Post
    Obviously by definition of the section we're in, the records are open to interpretation, but I'm not sure Born Villain is meant as a direct response or correlation to anything on Antichrist Superstar. As Antichrist was released, Manson explained in interviews that it was a 'message from the future, recorded in the past' [paraphrased]. He referred to his dream cycles preceding the album's creation, claiming "I feel like I've dreamed half of my life that hasn't happened yet, so a lot of times I'm going along, and I do stuff, and I know that I've done it" [1997, Rolling Stone].

    To be honest, the majority of 'predictions' Manson discussed were realised in the three years following Dead To The World and culminating in the release of Holy Wood. That's one of the reasons Manson chose to align three albums as 'The Triptych', because the events that actually took place in his life - either by coincidence or design - over the course of Mechanical Animals and Holy Wood were easily comparable to the fictional accounts on Antichrist Superstar.

    The record that was probably closest to embodying the Antichrist Superstar from a more recent perspective using the 'Rise & Fall/Fall & Rise' motif is The High End Of Low.
    I pretty much completely agree. I was just taking a look at it from how he said. And he said that Born Villain is that message from the future.

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    "11. Murderers Are Getting Prettier Every Day/Kinderfeld

    Unless the horrid voices of someone else's angels are Jack (related to "Jack Eats Dinner"? Who knows!) and the other non-Worm person in Kinderfeld, I again see nothing. I'm sure Manson would, though. However, despite my lack of sleep, I'm still not seeing it."-HG131

    I believe the other non-worm person is Brian's grandfather Hugh, who loved his basement with trains (correct me if I'm crazy). In conjunction to the other song, Brian said it is not supposed to be about a person, just the portrayal of a certain feeling.
    Also, he was on his knees quite a lot in both songs.
    --------------------------------

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    Well, first of all, The song "Children Of Cain", show tremendous amount of relativity to The Triptych. Having Cain, the son of Adam Kadmon, Describing Manson being Born Again. The Gardener describes how it represents Mechanical Animals, with him not being a man (man enough), and trying to fit into a world that doesn't want you. But faking it, as a androgyne. And Antichrist Superstar being a huge lie, representing himself as a bigger Rockstar than he really was. The albums: Eat Me, Drink Me, The High End Of Low, and Born Villain, as its own triptych, shows a more "Man Enough" side of Manson. This album has so many references, and is far more complex than most people, like myself, think.•

    - - - Updated - - -

    I know what I'm writing is more about the triptych, but I don't think there needed a thread for it. I realized that the Three "Fa"'s represent him faking himself for three time, in the triptych. Him being Adam, Omēga, and the Worm/Disintegrator/Antichrist (Svperstar). "Im Not Man Enough, To Be Human. But Im Trying To Fit In, And Im Learning To FA, FA, FA, Fake It."
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHETTO_DRAGULA View Post
    The Gardener describes how it represents Mechanical Animals, with him not being a man (man enough), and trying to fit into a world that doesn't want you.
    It's very interesting that you say that because The Gardener also kept reminding me of New Model No. 15.

    Quote Originally Posted by GHETTO_DRAGULA View Post
    The albums: Eat Me, Drink Me, The High End Of Low, and Born Villain, as its own triptych, shows a more "Man Enough" side of Manson. This album has so many references, and is far more complex than most people, like myself, think.•
    I could also see that now that you mention it, as you can see it spell "MAN" on album cover of The High End of low with the "RILY" and "NSO" in between them. That's pretty cool, as it's like how when I noticed that the acronym of that album would be THEOL, which looks like the first 5 letters of theology, with there being 5 major religions around the world. (It just reminded me of that.)

    And speaking of the faking it part, it sort of also brought me back to the chorus to Organ Grinder. And speaking of the number 3 again, it even starts with mentioning 3 things, as he says that he is the face of piss and shit and sugar. (This could somehow relate, as there was some speculation or even confirmation of Portrait of an American Family being connected to Antichrist Superstar, depending on who you speak to or ask.)
    Last edited by Halo Infinity; 07-17-2014 at 12:35 AM.

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