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Thread: Is Religion Dangerous?

  1. #21
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    Yeah. You're right about that. But what I also brought up, not just here as I have observed other places as well, the mindset of "New Wave" Atheists, which to me is a form of fake liberalism and is a mentality that has nothing to do directly with Atheism itself who tend to reject Philosophy. I see a lot of vLoggers and Bloggers straight.up.mock it. And that's why I like to "Muck things the fuck up". That could just be what I am noticing though and the feedback that I've gotten back from a lot of other Atheists. Though I do believe in UFO's and swear to FUCK that I've seen Ghosts. LOL But that's for another conversation. - Anyway, that's why I decided to branch off from them and identify as a Pantheist. As for prayer, again. I agree with you on that. The thing is, a lot of Atheists can now just be as off putting and "intimidating" to speak to without encountering major pejorative discourses aimed at making someone feel stupid instead of asking other people why they think or feel that way or trying/attempting to educate them as theists who try to convert you can be. You know? As for who learns what from who... I just think that it's important to listen to one another. That and people often tend to believe in absolute truths. Or that Science is just "Science" and not realizing that there are multiple Sciences. Also that not all Scientists think the same or agree on the same subjects. While our current Sciences, most of them, provide the best explanations for the objective reality of the Natural Universe/World. It isn't always the "Ultimate Proof". Not to mention the fact that we're on the brink of discovering a 4th dimension to our Universe if not more. That and alternate/real Parallel Universes. The discovery that the Big Bang isn't quite what we thought it was. The discovery of twelve concentric rings of radiation "behind it" etc... It's an imprint, a mirage. Or are we in a Black Hole as some suggest? The stances on it are ever changing. Now, these things are not proven but there is a lot of good "faith" to know that these other dimensions are there. Just like with the Higgs Boson that took how many decades to prove? We knew it was there the whole time. Not to discredit any legitimate Science. We learn new things all of the time. At the same time old theories and laws have been challenged and replaced. Like I've said, even Spooky Action at a Distance was just proven. Einstein HATED Quantum Entanglement. I just think that a lot of people now just want to be right and are full of hubris and who are also committing intellectual suicide in a sense by not allowing for other ideas to influence them or be open to being wrong about something even to the tiniest degree. And I realize that "Islam" is not a race. Come on. But I emphasized more on intolerance than racism. I subscribe to a TON of Channels on Youtube/Pages/Blogs/Groups and even know of some people, both Black Atheists, Asian Atheists, White Atheists (Which most people for some reason seem to think that white people dominate that lol), that use racial slurs to discredit someones argument. Now, that's a minority of people that I've personally seen and heard but I can't stand the Dawkins/Harris Camp. Though I do enjoy their symposiums and literature. As for me thinking that you're a "Know it all". I don't know you. This is actually the first actual conversation we've had. As for me bringing up all of these esoteric "unproven" physics, I'm not really ASSERTING them, but much rather find a lot of curiosity in them and love discussions on "out there" ideas. I like to take everything into consideration even if it is probably just ridiculous, but seemingly very convincing conjecture

    *On a quick side note - I've been suffering from a lot of cognitive blunting and neurological problems that both I am not taking care of properly and I have to own that, and also that just aren't being handled properly by the professionals that I entrust and pay thousands of dollars to just basically keep me having a pulse at this current time. Thank you, GABAergics! As for morality and why I brought up Mao and Stalin, as well as the French Crusades, is because Atheists are just as guilty of whitewashing their History as Christians are. And we still have Humanist/Secular or just straight up Communist fucking countries where a lot of sexual, physical and mental abuses occur even if it isn't murder or slaughtering in the name of something. As for Spirituality, I believe in Spirituality on a personal level and in relation to Nature. I know that I tend to come across as using a "God of the Gaps" argument, but it's not in the same way that Christian Scientists use it. There are just so many things that we don't know that interest me, which is why I recommended that book ....which was endorsed on Richard Dawkins Facebook page believe it or not. LOL - I'm much more interested in the subjective than the objective. It's more entertaining to me. I love exploring strange ideas and that which is often considered quackery. I love consciousness studies. I love NDE studies. Not ones where people write books about seeing Jesus or "Heaven is For Real". But I mean the studies at CIIS and the aWARE project at Horizon Research. People that are in Coma's or who have been pronounced clinically dead with no brain activity or any other vital signs for up to 45 minutes etc. There is still so much to be understood. So much that we don't know about even our own human brains, while we know A LOT, there are still some ever elusive pieces of the puzzle that drives these types of studies and research. Now that we have an open discussion going, maybe we can share opinions on certain theories outside of Religion? Even though that may require a whole new thread.

    I could go on and on. But I'll leave it here and see where it goes. Take Care
    Last edited by Shangri-LIE; 12-08-2015 at 02:16 PM.
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  2. #22
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    I think religion, organized or not, is dangerous. Everything is, so it's hard for me to give too involved of an answer.

    I also think Atheists, even though they understand religion better than religious people generally do, do not tend to understand it all that much better. If an atheist thinks religion is holding the world back, then what about Science? All of those technological advancements won't bring the world to its knees? Humans are dangerous. Life is dangerous. Animals are dangerous. Water is, and trees too.

    Most forget why they became an atheist to begin with, and their search for reason is just as delusional as a Schizophrenics.
    "Everyone accepts their own lies" (paraphrase) - MM LOL

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  4. #23
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    Pretty much what you said, Shangs.
    Just bumping to keep it alive, really. Good discussion

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  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Penance Sentence View Post
    I think religion, organized or not, is dangerous. Everything is, so it's hard for me to give too involved of an answer.

    I also think Atheists, even though they understand religion better than religious people generally do, do not tend to understand it all that much better. If an atheist thinks religion is holding the world back, then what about Science? All of those technological advancements won't bring the world to its knees? Humans are dangerous. Life is dangerous. Animals are dangerous. Water is, and trees too.

    Most forget why they became an atheist to begin with, and their search for reason is just as delusional as a Schizophrenics.
    "Everyone accepts their own lies" (paraphrase) - MM LOL
    Exactly. The reason I create threads like this is to see what people no. We're all Apples and there one was a Garden in the Middle East where it was Lush, Peaceful and then shit got dark, man. But along came a slithering Light Bringer. The one who tricked our greatest Grandparents into consuming forbidden knowledge. Wait, no that never happened but anyway. Why I create these types of threads are for a multitude of reasons. 1.) It's an Arts and Philosophy section on a Marilyn Manson page, Mmkay? LOL 2.) This isn't a schooooooooooooool. This isn't a Lecture Hall. This is where we come to get our brains wet. 3.) It's to throw out as much straw to the men and women who encircle these parts like Buzzards just waiting to snipe a wounded Animal in a magical Forest that is fading away in to a scorched Dreamscape where the mirage of wonder is becoming more and more faint. Yes, buzzkills. People who believe in rationale but abandon imagination. Who abandon the very (fun)damentals of figuring things out. I like to see their opinions and counter arguments because I know EXACTLY where they came from. Most Atheists know that Religion is just bullshit on a surface level just based on the Observations of the Faithful they've encountered or have seen through some medium. That or just buy knowing that all of the Animals in the World can't fit on one boat. But have they ever really studied theology or philosophy? The same with Theists. How many have actually took an objective approach to rationally explaining their faith based on Science?

    I know "all of the above", so to speak. Which is why I don't apply it. There is no point in it. I know all of the counter arguments. I know all of the buzzwords. I know that on both sides the same syllogisms are often just parroted and plagiarized recitations of what their author-authority demigods have already used. Science is dangerous because we totally embrace Newtonian Physics. Physics, that if you keep on top of current Scientific Journals, are flawed. Yes. I just said that. And it's not Pseudoscience either nor is it infotainment. People in the Physics and Astrophysics community are pretty nervous. Cosmologists are becoming uneasy at some of our recent discoveries and NO not floating cities and a hyped up Dyson Sphere scenario.

    Religion. It is dangerous when used by the mentally handicapped or unstable. It is dangerous when it influences policy and law. Other than that, no. Either way, both sides have no idea exactly how fucking wrong they are ....and we're/we've been finding it out recently. Not totally, but ....I'll leave it at that.
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  7. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Penance Sentence View Post
    I think religion, organized or not, is dangerous. Everything is, so it's hard for me to give too involved of an answer.

    I also think Atheists, even though they understand religion better than religious people generally do, do not tend to understand it all that much better. If an atheist thinks religion is holding the world back, then what about Science? All of those technological advancements won't bring the world to its knees? Humans are dangerous. Life is dangerous. Animals are dangerous. Water is, and trees too.

    Most forget why they became an atheist to begin with, and their search for reason is just as delusional as a Schizophrenics.
    "Everyone accepts their own lies" (paraphrase) - MM LOL

    I think I already mentioned how religion holds people back. But as this thread is located under "philosophy", I suppose you have to be very careful and define your terms in a delicate way. I'll happily bring countless examples of why religion holds people back. And I don't mean just held back from scientific advancement, but even held back from enjoying themselves fully (I know, I know, it's all subjective.) Religion clearly represses people and preys on their guilt and shame humans for being...humans. We would culturally be much more sexual for example if it wasn't for the fuckin' Puritans. Instead, masturbation is a sinful taboo and frowned upon. This is a very unhealthy mental state to constantly fear the monster in the sky reading your thoughts and watching your behavior. It's driven me bat shit mad when I was a kid and still believed these things.

    I could go on, but I have to ask a very important question: How is science holding the world back? You seemed to flip the question around and indicate that science too holds us back. On what basis do you make that claim? As far as I know, science is the ONLY reputable way for deciphering truth. Science deals with empirical evidence, double blind tests, doubt, scrutiny, etc.. It has a built in system that has been refined over the last 500 years or so that makes it very good at preventing human biases from getting anywhere. As soon as you publish something, you have thousands of others in the same field trying to prove you wrong. The easiest person to fool is yourself. So I ask you, what do you feel science is holding the world back from exactly? As far as I can tell it's the best and only reliable way of knowing anything. Any other method whether faith, dogma, authority, revelation, spiritual affirmation, even personal experience is unreliable. That is why scientists don't care about anecdotes. You could swear that you seen a ghost or whatever but it's no good. Your eyes play tricks on you, we are all impressionable to strong suggestion, etc, etc, etc.. There are a million ways that we are wrong about things we really believe are true. Most of our memories are false or distortions of an objective reality that actually occurred. It's weird. Again, science has methods to protect itself from such influence and suggestion.

    Most of all, science WORKS. You can't deny the progress it's made. Otherwise this computer wouldn't work, and Rick and Morty wouldn't be on my television right now. Science has predictive power which is a strong indication that something is true. For example the beautiful Tiktaalik fossil that was discovered. That's an example of putting Darwin's theory on trial. Maybe he was right, maybe he was wrong. If he was right, we have certain things we should expect to see. If animals really did evolve, there should be evidence that we could check. So you find a time in the fossil record before any land animals appear. If you're going to find anything that can be considered evidence, it should be there. That is precisely where Neil Shubin discovered something that wasn't quite a fish and wasn't quite an amphibian. It had a neck, it's fins were slightly more developed to a point where it could crawl briefly, and there are a bunch of other interesting features this thing had if you want to look him up. But the point of that story was to show that you have a hypothesis that you can actually test. It didn't have to be that way. It could have turned out that that these creatures always existed at the same time as mammals, but it just doesn't look to be the case.

    Technological advancements bringing the world to it's knees? Well, if you're arguing that science can be used in a bad way to bind us and kill us like the case with the atom bomb, yeah that's a possibility. But you also can't argue that it's increased the lifespan and wellbeing of virtually everyone. It's made life so much easier and better for us all. At any time bad people can do bad things with technology. But I'm just speculating what you meant. Please go into more detail. I'm curious how you might have put science and religion as equals or just as bad as one another. I think knowledge is power and the more we live in a true reality, or as close as one that we can perceive, the better all of our lives get.

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    Good reply, Tragedy.
    I will ask only one question, and it isn't one that necessarily needs a response: If one is critiquing the foundations of Science, or even just an aspect of Science (Scientific method e.g.), then why and how would they do so using Scientific methods and approaches?

    Science is not a question. It is an answer. Art is a question, and that is what I just gave you.

    Also, I agree with everything that you said.

  9. #27

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    I think I understand what you mean. You're saying that if the scientific methods are used to acquire "science" as we know it, how on earth could we ever challenge it's findings using the same method we used to find it in the first place? Seems kind of like circular reasoning, or at best, a strong bias in scientists to continue what they are doing and not look at alternative options.

    I get a strong sense that a lot of people today (not necessarily yourself) feel lost or hopeless about science. Like it's a bunch of know-it-alls that refuse to take alternatives in consideration. We shouldn't be afraid of science and think it's esoteric mumbo jumbo. It's pretty neat and we ought to embrace it as it gets us the closest to truth as possible.

    That being said, until some other alternative comes along that proves to be successful and not hogwash scams to con people, science happens to just give us the best answers, medicines, etc.. And if something did come along in say, alternative medicine that did end up working and having some true beneficial results, it would instantly become a part of "science" as a whole. It wouldn't exist somewhere outside. It would become a part of the study and research of empiricism that the very best minds can give us. As far as I know, the so-called "scientific method" is the ONLY reputable way to adjudicate evidence because of the strict and almost insane levels of scrutiny and doubt that scientists have for one another. It's not, as many creationists think, a bunch of guys sitting around coming up with bullshit over some drinks to fuck with religion. It's well studied, statistically significant, provisional truths, the closest as we can tell to reality. Philosophy can benefit from science, and science too, might be inspired to ask new questions or to look at problems in a different way outside the box from philosophy, but science can't benefit directly from philosophy or religion which offers absolutely nothing in the realm of empiricism. If all we had was philosophy and religion, we'd have nothing. Philosophy grows as our perspective of reality grows, a scientific endeavor.

    In this way, art is similar to philosophy. But obviously science asks questions too. It's in the business of asking questions and actually finding out answers, something that maybe can't be done with art and philosophy alone.

    I think above all art is the most important thing, because it makes life worth living. Gadgets and technology wouldn't exist without dreams and initiative. All three work together for the greater good for all of us.

  10. #28

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    Yes, religion is dangerous because it divide us instead of unite us!

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    Science isn't holding the world back. But Scientism can as it's always being reexamined and subject to change. Never clutch on to one explanation and leave out other possibilities. There are only a very few absolute certainties. And Science doesn't deal with absolutes. That's a 101 in any field of Scientific Studies. Again there are multiple "Sciences". I hate saying "Science has proven". Well 1.) Which field of Science? and 2.) Which field of Science? LOL - I'm not Anti-Science(s) nor am I Anti-Religion. As for Science not being a question, that's false. It does provide answers to many things, or the most probable explanation, and again there is a lot more still to be know. Scientists are in the business of questioning things. We aren't going to debate evolution as that's something that has actually been proven, and not through just fossil records. I'll spare the details as I am sure you know about the entire process. I'll elaborate later. But again, as I've said, not a lot but some of which what was and still is considered "Junk Science" is starting to gain more credibility and other long held "Absolutes", which again, Science doesn't deal with, have either come into question again. I made a silly thread in personal discussion about some "shapes" and "things" for a reason to be looked into. Not to be a troll or to be obnoxious/cryptic. But here are some links for you to peruse at your leisure. "Back then" they were engineers, astronomers, (not to be confused with astrologers), and Mathematicians.

    Goodbye relativity. You can feel free to cross reference as well.

    http://www.science20.com/hammock_phy...ats_wrong_emc2
    http://www.livescience.com/52912-ato...mperature.html
    http://www.sciencealert.com/research...-is-unsolvable
    http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releas...-grc112015.php

    Now, as far as Religion goes. (Typing with a pretty acute migraine by the way). And you never replied to me. I assume you think I was being ridiculous? But I brought up the very things that are in those articles and have many, many more on many, many other subjects. Anyway, I am against established Religions. But as I've said, I am very into studying theology and Gnostic "Gospels", which once delves into that stuff, you'll find out that they tell a VERY different story. Which is why they are considered dangerous. I'm opposed to Orthodox Religions I suppose you could say. But the reason Religion divides us as People is because we don't understand how it was constructed. The Bible itself when Canonized intentionally took certain writings and records, re-wrote them, altered and even destroyed passages etc... If People were to look at it that way, the real history of Ancient Judea and Sumeria where our primary Religions were developed, we'd have a very different idea of what we call "Faith" or "Spirituality". Even though a lot of Ancient Cultures didn't have the capacities or tools that we do now, they were very, to them, Scientifically minded. The Bible and the Qu'aran/Kaballah do not illustrate that. And there are numerous reasons for it that are purely Political. It's all in how you look at things. Let's talk about "Jesus Christ"? Shall we? Another real LOL - There's a very good reason why we can't find much if any Historical records of his existence. That wasn't "His" name and two the Roman Empire all but destroyed many relics, records, temples and libraries of their time that contradicted Judaism as I've mentioned. But in a lot of older texts, they weren't speaking of a "God in the Sky" or the "God" as we know as told in these books. No, they made "Him". Let's say there was a Nazarene who we do know existed named "Esu". He was Anti-Religion. He was Anti-Worship. He was a pretty dangerous person at the time for many reasons, one of which was that he kept the company of Women. He also instructed his "Disciples" not to Worship him. There's a lot more to it, and thanks to Roman fucking JEWS, they fucked everything up. So we can thank them for it. They were worse than the Nazi's were when it came to doing the exact same thing to Germany's History and Culture. You're Welcome. Edit - Also, whoever this person was, also denied that he was born of a Virgin and also spoke of his siblings, an incident where he killed one of his friends and also used to secretly teach evolution. He denied the books of Moses including Genesis, (Creationism). His symbol was the ichthys or a "Fish". He was speaking about how all things came about from the Heavens, literally meaning the sky into the sea. When he used/uses the word father, or anyone back then, a lot of the time they weren't using it literally as in "The man who created you" but rather "The reason for".
    Last edited by Shangri-LIE; 12-15-2015 at 04:12 AM.
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  12. #30
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    Science is not holding the world back. It is too holding the world back. This thread is a joke. This thread is not a joke.
    I agree with everything written above, actually. 110%

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