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Thread: Is Religion Dangerous?

  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Penance Sentence View Post
    "The point is that many hardcore religionists are responsible for a great deal of nefarious behavior. And there is a DIRECT correlation with level of religiosity and bad behavior."

    Trag, no offense, but that very pro-social quote makes you sound very much the same from a Christian. So, the only difference is that a Christian believes in a God; is your lack of belief in a God any valid reason to devote a chunk of your life to storming down Christians because the only difference from you and them is that they MAY have ONE delusional belief? As if, Humans have truly 100% logical belief sets, with no fallacies apparent whatsoever...

    I like you, Trag, so don't take it the wrong way.
    You're pro-human; you're talking about nefarious conduct. It would be different if you were some misanthrope, or something hellbent on destruction, but you're not. I don't even know you, but I know that you're not.

    The only difference I see from you and a Christian is they MAY have a delusional belief that you do not have. Okay, is that all it takes to force you on a pro-anti-Christian tirade, smacking down religionists unabashedly? That's Dr. Shangri-LIE's point.

    And, I don't want to make this post, as if I'm defending religion, or even the existence of Gods/God, or whatever. Your point here is tied to logical reasoning, so I'm trying to apply some to make a point.

    And, personally, Trag, I'd let it slide: I wouldn't go after you to make a point or anything because I think you're cool as f-uck, but I know if I don't step in, this stupid f-ucking post will be dragged on longer if I didn't post anything.

    So, you're welcome!

    Edit: If we're against single delusions and what not, then hell, why stop with Religious people? F-ucking OCD people! A-ssholes! Jesus f-cuking Christ, OCD people are the biggest a-ssholes on the planet, we should totally create a new social movement and shun all of their retarded belief sets! I mean, god f-ucking damnit, I'm going to write a few best-selling novels to prove why OCD people are illlogical, and all of their claims and habits are unfounded b-ullshit!
    I'm going to beat a dead horse and treat this post seriously too! lol and no offense taken at all. I enjoy these talks, despite/regardless of whether the intent was originally mockery. I think I have a more defendable position. I might indeed sound like a Christian to a degree. Really, it's no different than any pro-social group. Take Republicans and Democrats. Both want and seek a better world, right? But they have very opposite views on how to go about it. So I'll accept that it teeters on the brink of what Christians claim with their high horse and pedestal for morality. If I ever dare discuss morality in any way, I'm still playing that ballgame that Christians play (even though I'm right and they're wrong and morality evolved and is not god given!) But I just mean that I accept that we're playing on the same field, not unlike Republicans and Democrats.

    My lack of belief may or may not be a valid reason to devote a chunk of life toward storming down Christians. It's not so much my lack of belief that fuels it, but it's education in general. The U.S. is constantly on the lower end of first world test scores. There is a correlation with education and belief in god(s). In general, the top scientists are atheist. That is no coincidence. What does this mean? Does learning science make you more atheistic? Or are atheists for whatever reason drawn to science? I'd say probably a little of both. I'm not a misanthrope. I can be at times and I have put myself in that mental place. The whole, "fuck the world, burn it down, kill everyone" mentality. But the thing is I'm personally affected by the laws of the land and as long as we have lawmakers sticking to ancient texts for morality (ex prostitution is illegal, why? It should not be a "moral" issue, it becomes one in religion sex before marriage is a sin, etc...) These delusions are harmful and often misogynistic. It's not so much that I care they believe in a god. They could believe in the flying spaghetti monster. But deeply held delusions are in fact dangerous. But I agree with what you said earlier. People are dangerous. No idea by itself is dangerous, which is why it's bullshit Germany banned images of swastikas or Mein Kampf for a long time. All art should be out there. Guns generally don't fire on their own, it takes a person to pull the trigger. I don't think any ideas should be banned. It's not only one delusional belief that separates me from Christians or most other religions for that matter, it's a series of many many beliefs. It might only boil down to god's existence, but as I said, there are a lot of caveats and amendments and other little beliefs that often come with it, such as rules to live by and whatnot. You said something about all you see as a difference between me and Christians is that they may "have a delusional belief that I don't have....is that all it takes to force me on an pro anti Christian tirade" I don't care about their belief in a god! lol I care about them not accepting science and not letting me have an abortion if I want one because it is they who force their beliefs on us. They could respectfully disagree but still allow gays to marry, but they want to FORCE their personal beliefs on the world. I shouldn't generalize. I should say MOST of them do. And why shouldn't they want to? They really truly believe they have the key to eternal happiness and they are just trying to help us dirty immoral heathens. That the whole point why it becomes such a bad and radical thing. It doesn't end with a belief or lack of belief in god. It comes with the baggage of an entire worldview and set of beliefs about how government should run and why I can't buy fucking alcohol on Sunday's in my state. Why not? It's just a stupid law. So hopefully I made myself clear that I am NOT against single delusions necessarily. We all have them. I don't claim to be perfectly logical. To paraphrase the physicist Lawrence Krauss, "I have to tell myself 10 delusional lies to get myself out of bed each day". We are largely irrational primates. It's not their fault they're religious, but I do think it's child abuse, personal, feeding children into this horrid fantasy based on nothing. I had nightmares as a kid anyway. OCD people might actually be a mental illness and maybe religion is too. I used to be OCD about germs. Washing my hands constantly and using paper or my jacket to open doors. I've got a lot of retarded beliefs. I don't know if there is a god or not. I won't say there definitely isn't, but it's ignorant to claim knowledge when no one has knowledge so maybe it's the Christians that should be more humble. And I hate that I'm attacking Christians so much. Understand that anytime I used the word "Christian" I'm really included all religions. Hindu, Buhdist, Muslim, Jew, etc... I'm "Against All Gods". Look up the short video of Stephen Fry on God, it's genius.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by M Tragedy666 View Post
    I'm going to beat a dead horse and treat this post seriously too! lol and no offense taken at all. I enjoy these talks, despite/regardless of whether the intent was originally mockery. I think I have a more defendable position. I might indeed sound like a Christian to a degree. Really, it's no different than any pro-social group. Take Republicans and Democrats. Both want and seek a better world, right? But they have very opposite views on how to go about it. So I'll accept that it teeters on the brink of what Christians claim with their high horse and pedestal for morality. If I ever dare discuss morality in any way, I'm still playing that ballgame that Christians play (even though I'm right and they're wrong and morality evolved and is not god given!) But I just mean that I accept that we're playing on the same field, not unlike Republicans and Democrats.

    My lack of belief may or may not be a valid reason to devote a chunk of life toward storming down Christians. It's not so much my lack of belief that fuels it, but it's education in general. The U.S. is constantly on the lower end of first world test scores. There is a correlation with education and belief in god(s). In general, the top scientists are atheist. That is no coincidence. What does this mean? Does learning science make you more atheistic? Or are atheists for whatever reason drawn to science? I'd say probably a little of both. I'm not a misanthrope. I can be at times and I have put myself in that mental place. The whole, "fuck the world, burn it down, kill everyone" mentality. But the thing is I'm personally affected by the laws of the land and as long as we have lawmakers sticking to ancient texts for morality (ex prostitution is illegal, why? It should not be a "moral" issue, it becomes one in religion sex before marriage is a sin, etc...) These delusions are harmful and often misogynistic. It's not so much that I care they believe in a god. They could believe in the flying spaghetti monster. But deeply held delusions are in fact dangerous. But I agree with what you said earlier. People are dangerous. No idea by itself is dangerous, which is why it's bullshit Germany banned images of swastikas or Mein Kampf for a long time. All art should be out there. Guns generally don't fire on their own, it takes a person to pull the trigger. I don't think any ideas should be banned. It's not only one delusional belief that separates me from Christians or most other religions for that matter, it's a series of many many beliefs. It might only boil down to god's existence, but as I said, there are a lot of caveats and amendments and other little beliefs that often come with it, such as rules to live by and whatnot. You said something about all you see as a difference between me and Christians is that they may "have a delusional belief that I don't have....is that all it takes to force me on an pro anti Christian tirade" I don't care about their belief in a god! lol I care about them not accepting science and not letting me have an abortion if I want one because it is they who force their beliefs on us. They could respectfully disagree but still allow gays to marry, but they want to FORCE their personal beliefs on the world. I shouldn't generalize. I should say MOST of them do. And why shouldn't they want to? They really truly believe they have the key to eternal happiness and they are just trying to help us dirty immoral heathens. That the whole point why it becomes such a bad and radical thing. It doesn't end with a belief or lack of belief in god. It comes with the baggage of an entire worldview and set of beliefs about how government should run and why I can't buy fucking alcohol on Sunday's in my state. Why not? It's just a stupid law. So hopefully I made myself clear that I am NOT against single delusions necessarily. We all have them. I don't claim to be perfectly logical. To paraphrase the physicist Lawrence Krauss, "I have to tell myself 10 delusional lies to get myself out of bed each day". We are largely irrational primates. It's not their fault they're religious, but I do think it's child abuse, personal, feeding children into this horrid fantasy based on nothing. I had nightmares as a kid anyway. OCD people might actually be a mental illness and maybe religion is too. I used to be OCD about germs. Washing my hands constantly and using paper or my jacket to open doors. I've got a lot of retarded beliefs. I don't know if there is a god or not. I won't say there definitely isn't, but it's ignorant to claim knowledge when no one has knowledge so maybe it's the Christians that should be more humble. And I hate that I'm attacking Christians so much. Understand that anytime I used the word "Christian" I'm really included all religions. Hindu, Buhdist, Muslim, Jew, etc... I'm "Against All Gods". Look up the short video of Stephen Fry on God, it's genius.
    I'll try to hit you up on Skype again later tonight. And while you are about to pass out for the day. I will give an honest answer in this stupid fucking thread. What I do is the Ultimate Straw Man here on these boards, and I actually get a KICK out of people destroying my arguments or "claims'. Why? Well, other than the reason we've discussed, Marilyn Manson forums tend to be hotbeds for relentless antagonists/provocateurs. Especially Atheists. And I don't take an Anti-Theist/Diest/Religious or Anti-Anti-Theist/Atheist stance either. I like to try to "convince" Atheists that their Humanism is a form of, especially, (Again here on a Marilyn Manson forum(s) where a lot of People have had their ideas of Religion formed by some sort of fucked up exposure to Religion as a child), and that they are also using Pascal's Wager.

    Everyone is a fucking crusader. And other than different Religions being on a mission to recruit and convert people, I also see this whole Anti-Theist tirade Culture being more or less the same thing. Futile. Pointless. It's comparable to the war on Terrorism if you ask me. Well it is, at least in my books. And it will never end. It's not progressive. It's recursive in nature. And the more that you bash someone, or threaten someones dearly held delusions, faith or whatever else that they believe is real, not just pertaining to God, the more they'll cling onto it. So, telling someone that they're irrational is about as effective as putting chewing gum over a leaking transmission. And I also tend to pick on people that I call "The Parrots" on both sides. I can predict just about any counter point someone is going to make. I have it down to a fucking Science, you know this, (LOL), and believe it or not, I know more about Christianity/Judaism/Hinduism/Islam etc... more than a lot of People who practice those Faiths, as well as Athiests/Agnostics. Which, by the way, MOST Atheists are actually Agnostics even if their sliver of giving the idea of a "God" existing is by a very small Margin. It's actually very hard to find a well educated Atheist who is a total 7 on the Theistic-Atheistic spectrum.

    Christians are easy targets, man. I prefer to have fun with people who actually adhere to sound logical thinking. At the same time, there is no "Spectrum" of Logical vs. Illogical unless you have some sort of serious mental illness/disease. And as much as we'd love say that belief is a Mental Disorder, it's not classified as one. But that's a whole other discussion for a later time. We live on a Religious Planet. I just tell People to either "Deal with it" and always have or to just have fun with your life and unless someone is harming you, someone you know and love, or indoctrinating your Child, (Which again doesn't just apply to God), with insane ideas and explanations/what's in their curriculum/proposed or passed as Laws...then who the fuck cares? Just do what you love. Focus on the things that you actually LIKE instead of exhausting so much damn energy on People who will NEVER budge from their deep rooted superstitions and beliefs/ways of life. (This isn't directed at you, M_Trag, btw).

    The easiest way that I can explain it....in parable form. LOL -Is that there is more of a percentage of Theists/Diests and people who believe in the Paranormal than there are a percentage of Atheists on this Planet/In this World. Think about that. Lesson? Stay out of the Ocean as Aunt Boo would say. Unless you are Robinson Crusoe, Jacques Cousteu or if you're in the Navy.That's the Sharks House. That, or don't go too far out into it. I go on "Pretend Tirades". Again, why? Because I find people, no matter how much of a whipper snapper or educated that they are/may be, to be wasting their time, and it's stupid. It proves nothing and disproves nothing. If your "Profession" in life, not particularly you M_Trag, is just to "Smack People Down"....then I really pity you/those people. And again, as explained before, that's why I act/behave like an impetuous child like clown on here and on Message Boards of the past/some other parts of the web....Because I see them that way.
    Last edited by Shangri-LIE; 03-02-2016 at 06:36 AM.
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  3. #53

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    I don't think it's ever a waste of time though. People can and do change their minds. It takes time and it's hard to reprogram brains or to brainwash in the opposite direction. Statistics and polls in the U.S. show that the 'nones" are the fastest growing "religion", where church goers are decreasing in record amounts. Sweden and Denmark are examples of countries that have broken out of it. I don't think it's futile, though it may seem that way sometimes. But no matter. Whether someone enjoys going into these things or not is personal preference. There could be some kid on this forum right now reading through these things, and whether or not we take it seriously, he or she may read something by one of us that really strikes a chord and could inspire and influence more thought and further research. That's the kid I'd like to help. That obviously parallels many religions that think they are helping kids, the difference is I'm not a homosexual priest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M Tragedy666 View Post
    I don't think it's ever a waste of time though. People can and do change their minds. It takes time and it's hard to reprogram brains or to brainwash in the opposite direction. Statistics and polls in the U.S. show that the 'nones" are the fastest growing "religion", where church goers are decreasing in record amounts. Sweden and Denmark are examples of countries that have broken out of it. I don't think it's futile, though it may seem that way sometimes. But no matter. Whether someone enjoys going into these things or not is personal preference. There could be some kid on this forum right now reading through these things, and whether or not we take it seriously, he or she may read something by one of us that really strikes a chord and could inspire and influence more thought and further research. That's the kid I'd like to help. That obviously parallels many religions that think they are helping kids, the difference is I'm not a homosexual priest.
    Alright, I'll add another serious comment, but the LAST ONE and then I'm stepping out of here! LOL - It's inexcusable what the Vatican and Parishes World Wide have gotten away with. I think that goes without saying and most of us can agree with that. I can't speak for everyone because there also might be Predatory Homosexual Pedophile Priests visit the forums. I had to say that just for the chuckle. But no, child rape and molestation within Catholocism is just as rampant as anywhere else you can find it. It extends beyond that and always has socially in various cultures. And it's still rampant even here. There's also that uncomfortable taboo fact that it is is more biological than it is a fetish for Children. But I'm straying off course a bit, and that's another story. The point is, not in defending sexual abusers and/or the Catholic Churches reputation for being full of them, is that you can't stigmatize an establishment because fucked up weirdo's forced into Celibacy and/or are actually Pedophiles by nature drawn to a profession where children are more accessible, happen to rape kids. It happens in every fraternity, community and institution. So, if some "kid" reads this, he won't actually look into why Christianity was established, and it wasn't to spread the word of God, it was for Political reasons, then he or she really isn't going to learn anything other than, "Yeah, fuck Catholics. They're all a bunch or Perverts!" - Anyway, yeah. You can't do that.

    And I wouldn't say that Atheism is on the rise as much as Secularism and departing from Organized Religion etc.. is. True Atheism is an absolute refutation of Anything "Paranormal" or a "Higher Power". Like I said, there is a very tiny minority of people who reject the possibility of a "Higher Power", Life After Death, (Even if it isn't as portrayed in "Heaven is for Real"), or any Religious context whatsoever and also who 100% deny that Ghosts aren't real or that Aliens don't exist. I already went into that, so I'll just leave this at that. It's more just departing from Organized Religion and not totally denouncing anything that we can't prove just because we can't prove it. You'll find a lot more of those people who ARE like that have those "absolutely not, you delusional fucking IDIOT" attitudes are ones who would read, hear and/or watch just some guy ranting about his or her own observations of it not really based on anything other than it being "Bullshit" and go on and continue to do the same. And that's not the way to teach People. So, you also can't do that, too, as well.

    So, what you're seeing in those percentages, that I just looked up out of curiosity, is 14% of Non Religious People who are part of the Worlds Population. And that is FAR from being 14% of all of Earth's Population becoming Atheists. You also can't teach someone to be an Atheist or "How to be one". And that's just one of my many ways of convincing Anti-Theists, (I'll just start calling Atheists that because there hardly are any 100% deniers of a Higher Power of some sorts, conscious non locality and life after death as well as Paranormal occurrences), that some of their logic is a Straw Man. LOL *Wink *Smile
    Last edited by Shangri-LIE; 03-02-2016 at 07:04 PM. Reason: I'llCorrectErrorsintheMorningIhadOutPatientSuregeryToday
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    I had to really edit that. So, refresh before quoting me. I'm only semi-conscious from an outpatient procedure that I had done today still. LOL
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    It's unfair to throw aliens in with the rest of the delusional or paranormal. Not EVERY paranormal case has been debunked. But as I said elsewhere, it's unnecessary and a waste of time to go and TRY to debunk all of them. James Randi and others have done a fabulous job at if not debunking paranormal claims, then at the very least, showing that some of these talents like psychic ability or bending spoons CAN be recreated quite easily with a bit of trickery and deception. So what then is more likely? Most accounts of ghosts and other paranormal phenomenon can at least be explained equally well with alternative options. And that is all science has to do; to show it's possible and plausible and can be done other ways and not relying on supernatural. If there is an equally good explanation, it's as good as debunked in many skeptics eyes. Aliens are another story. We are here on this planet for some reason or "no no no no no reason". When I say "reason", I don't mean mystical wishes of a deity, rather I'm using the word in the context of a scientific reason. Whether or not life has any purpose or meaning, we can't escape the fact that we are here for some reason. Why/How did we get here? If it's a chemical process unguided by any god, then perhaps it's happened elsewhere in our vast universe. This is not the Ancient Aliens loopy view of reality. No, we've likely never made any contact with any other beings out there. If there are any, there is no telling that they are even intelligent in comparison with us. Now get on skype, you rat bastard!

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  8. #57

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    I just randomly came across a Daniel Dennet quote that I thought was appropriate "The one thing that I think is really dangerous in many religions is that it gives people a gold plated excuse to stop thinking". I think Dawkins put it another way something about being "satisfied with not knowing". It's not any belief in god or the paranormal that we care about, it's more so the snowball effect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by M Tragedy666 View Post
    It's unfair to throw aliens in with the rest of the delusional or paranormal. Not EVERY paranormal case has been debunked. But as I said elsewhere, it's unnecessary and a waste of time to go and TRY to debunk all of them. James Randi and others have done a fabulous job at if not debunking paranormal claims, then at the very least, showing that some of these talents like psychic ability or bending spoons CAN be recreated quite easily with a bit of trickery and deception. So what then is more likely? Most accounts of ghosts and other paranormal phenomenon can at least be explained equally well with alternative options. And that is all science has to do; to show it's possible and plausible and can be done other ways and not relying on supernatural. If there is an equally good explanation, it's as good as debunked in many skeptics eyes. Aliens are another story. We are here on this planet for some reason or "no no no no no reason". When I say "reason", I don't mean mystical wishes of a deity, rather I'm using the word in the context of a scientific reason. Whether or not life has any purpose or meaning, we can't escape the fact that we are here for some reason. Why/How did we get here? If it's a chemical process unguided by any god, then perhaps it's happened elsewhere in our vast universe. This is not the Ancient Aliens loopy view of reality. No, we've likely never made any contact with any other beings out there. If there are any, there is no telling that they are even intelligent in comparison with us. Now get on skype, you rat bastard!
    I said I was going to just "Step out". And perhaps you were right about someone actually wanting to learn something even if they come across the mess that is this thread. And I'll give you credit about the Aliens inclusion. But I DO think that it's important to explore everything. Not to necessarily to debunk anything or prove anything. Because if you go into something with a bias, you're going to get your desired results. You won't be surprised. And to me, as much as I study theology, philosophy and History-Religious History. I also think that, and again, this is why I've always thrown out so many quotes and abstract ideas with my own, (Stupid - LOL *) actual Character's twist. Because I base what I believe to either be total bullshit or what may be possible on Science. (Though I've never tried to have a sound Scientific discussion on here.). And I really do, and not to defend what I have always done under this moniker and am again...sort of, is that I also tend to just throw the whole "Book" at people. ...Or all of them in my own distorted apocryphal way. If you want to teach someone about Evolution, educate them on it. If you want to educate someone on something Physics related, educate them on it. But the most important thing is to have a conversation with even people you consider to either be dim or just straight up delusional. You have to, and I mean you HAVE to understand peoples core. Even if it's just a quick read that you get from them based on their arguments and/or claims are coming from. That brings me back to what I've said before. Understanding why Religion was so important for such a long time. Understanding the Religion. Understanding the various languages and what types of Cultures those Doctrine/Philosophies spawned out of. I think that's equally important. But I'm not going to quote anyone, as I often tend to do, because ...well, I covered that in my last post. A lot of Anti-Theists base their Anti-Theism on Authors or what other People have said based primarily on it being "Bullshit". And that's their only axiom. "It's bullshit, therefor it's bullshit". Without really explaining why. And by understanding why, and I know that you and I will continue to disagree on this one particular thing, is by understanding the roots, the History, the writing styles of the people of that time, how things were translated, where certain factions/establishments originated from. And that's why I said, again, that I'm not going to throw quotes around because I've always, outside of here in a serious manner, been one to point out that Anti-Theists use the Philosophies of others just as much as the Religiously Minded do. Even though on that spectrum of there being a "Personal God" I'd put myself at about a 5.5 or a 6 but not whenever it comes to some White Man on a Throne with a beard in the Sky, being a Warden and watching us all on Heavens Central Command security monitors. Another LOL *Actual

    But yeah, that's why I Ghost Hunt. But I don't do it to FIND Ghosts. I just want to, like to see what I can find, if anything at all. But then again we live in an age where, yes most of it can be explain, but not all. And to me those cases are ones that are worth further examination. At the same time we live in the age of "Fake". Some are obvious, but people are just automatically dismissive. Ruling out piping issues, electrical disturbances, dust, reflection off of things, audio and video recording device malfunctions, obvious trickery/hoaxes and just mistaking something for a Ghost. So, I don't really care if something thinks that I'm a quack/a loony toon for finding interest in that. Again, I've always had a fascination with this stuff. I don't have a little bit of "Captain" in me, but I do have a bit of "Mulder" in me. And as for your Daniel Dennet quote, again, I find a lot of Anti-Theists to be just satisfied themselves with whatever they don't believe in or know based on what they've read or heard somewhere. And that's where the whole "it's pointless" attitude comes from. And as for Ancient Aliens, yeah. "LOL" -That's all I'll say, but I do still have some questions about the possible interaction with "Aliens" in the past as I do believe that we still do as we can both agree that the possibility of "Aliens" whatever/whoever they are could be a real phenomenon. It's a word that I hate but just had to use it. I just don't think they're from Outer Space. Anyway, yeah. I'll get on Skype tonight. Ttys - Edit -Oh, and where I vary from a lot of other Anti-Religious/Anti-Theists is that I want a lot of this to be real. And not out of a fear of death or needing there to be a God or Ghosts not to feel alone on this Planet that can be really depressing to think about, or even for a feeling of being more significant than being a lumbering organic robot.
    Last edited by Shangri-LIE; 03-03-2016 at 07:23 AM.
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