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Thread: EMDM and THEOL are outstanding albums!

  1. #41

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    Having just come off of saying that one of THEOL's strong suits is the album intentionally being wayward and messy so-to-speak, I will say this:

    I occasionally daydream of a parallel universe while listening to that album where the operation was carried just slightly different. I think from 2008ish onward, Manson was grappling with two separate yet full-fledged concepts in his creative noodle. On one hand, he wanted to express an outright sense of beer-swilling gun-shooting midwest gloomy-bluesy balls-out masculinity, and on the other he wanted to craft a grand and epic theatrical cinematic record. He tried for years to accomplish both with very little fruit, not quite able to do both equally (THEOL), not quite able to do just one well (BV). It wasn't until Bates came along, an actual scorer of moving pictures, that he finally felt satisfied in getting it right.

    Anyways, I've been listening to the acoustic versions of THEOL tunes more and more lately, and I think it would've been fucking awesome if he went with that route. Not releasing the acoustic tracks as the album, but taking that left-turn into beat-up guitar territory. It would've been a massive departure, and would've definitely solidified the fact that the man's a goddamn chameleon. What would've been the absolute tits of tits, would be if Manson literally recorded the album twice and released it on two disks with just one track list. The first disk would be the regular THEOL we know, the second would be the 'acoustic versions' of every song, except with different vocal takes, and a bit more pizzazz and production to it. There are no 'alternate versions,' each song is one song, presented in equal stature but in two very different ways, soft and hard. That would've be pretty Marilyn Mansoney, and innovative as all hell.

    PS. Had the opening titles version of Four Rusted Horses been released as a single, as I'm pretty certain he wanted to do, it would've made waves. That's one of the best Manson tunes of the last near-20 years.

    To comment on what you've said Cap'n HG131, I somewhat agree with parts of what you've said, though I have different ways of seeing it. Manson hasn't always had his finger on the pulse, and even when he has, it's occasionally not turned out well. GAOG for example, while I love the concept and imagery of that album, and while it has some solid tunes (I sing the title track to my 4yo half-sister as a lullaby, replace 'motherfuckers' with 'human beings,' it actually works, she calls it 'the monkey song' and loves it) and some solid production, I feel the album went too far commercially cynical. Nu Metal was big, Eminem was the new public enemy #1 gobbling the charts, and the album occasionally reeks of grasping at the mainstream a little too much, even though yes Manson had by that point become the mainstream and the album has that cheeky post-post-nihilism fuckitness to it. While the 2000s quickly became a decade of anarchy symbols and skull-and-crossbones sold on tshirts and pencil cases at your local Old Navy, I personally feel Manson could've released something more innovative instead of making something that I at least always saw to be defeatist, even if it was done tongue-in-cheek.

    EMDM was sort of a tragic case of happenstance as I see it. That album was one written by Manson for Manson in a large sense. I feel in the four-year release-hiatus he took, he indeed lost a lot of track with what pop culture had quickly formed into. I've mentioned it somewhere before, but in essence, he released a deeply personal red-romantic album that Interscope went and found a way to twist into an 'emo record' from a marketing standpoint. I find EMDM to be completely detached from where pop culture and popular music was at that time, a left turn I quite enjoyed, even though the marketing and promotion was downright tragic. THEOL is a similar case, but with Manson acknowledging the reality of the prior era I just mentioned, and doing much in his power to completely detach from whatever the fuck happened to be going on with 'pop culture' entirely. He just wrote some fuckey heavy twitchy rock tunes, pissed on a lot of boardroom desks, and put it on record. That being said, without a doubt many of his decisions were the result of an increasing neurotic lack of confidence.

    By BV, Manson still had that lack of confidence, but now he had dropped the outright self-destructive tendencies and replaced them with try-hard desperation. BV was Manson trying to reclaim something that never existed, and so he released an abhorrently safe Manson-by-numbers record. At least with GAOG he had the attitude of 'this is gonna go platinum, fuck it,' whereas with BV, it was very much 'What do you want!? Please tell me.' That entire era to me is a black mark, though I know many will disagree. TPE is when he got his nerve back, releasing an album he was immensely confident in, while not giving a shit what the reception would be or how culturally relevant it is. Manson was back in form, confident, focused, and straight-shooting. Hence why for me I'm immensely excited for SAY10 beyond it just being new music from the man.

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  3. #42
    Enname's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idunno View Post
    Why?
    To which part of the statement? I am going to presume you mean the association with Alice in Wonderland. And also presume you are aware of it in the first place.

    Basically when I was a kid and reading Alice I was also reading a lot of Nabokov (because I am a nerd and could only access books owned by my parents) and Russian short stories. So they were already mixed together in my associations, or in things I would draw and rewrite to improve on the illustrations that accompanied the original stories. Which were too airy and light for me. So when I hear the lyrics to Eat Me, Drink Me - the song - I had a strange moment of 'how the fuck did Manson get into my head.' For example:

    In the wasteland
    On the way to the Red Queen...


    and

    I was invited to
    A beheading today.
    I thought I was a butterfly
    Next to your flame.


    And so rather than describing some messed up relationship, or traumatic period of emotional damage, the entirety of the album became a soundtrack to my own imaginary world as an 11 year old. Even with the added angst from Manson the more adult dialogue was already there inherent within what I had been reading, just now it is articulated with sound. I find it incredibly, dramatically, lushly romantic and windswept. And given that I am not naturally inclined to any of these modes myself as an adult, being about as romantic as a sponge, I have to be in the mood for revisting Russian literature and Alice more than anything. Which, luckily, I often am.


    Quote Originally Posted by HG131 View Post
    ]Not so unrelatedly, it's one of the most popular amongst women in the fandom
    This might be a bit of an overstatement, and not just because it is my least listened to album and I am female. There is something wrong in the the two presumptions that a) women in fandom are all in toxic and abusive relationships and b) those who are, can only identify with this album and not one that is more 'burn the fucking world down' or that presents something to hide in. In fact, in places it is quite hard to identify with it if female because the point of view is not very universal and is in fact, remarkably masculine. Which is fine, but not everyone's cup of tea.
    Last edited by Enname; 02-03-2017 at 10:46 PM.
    Quid ignorantia sit multi ignorant.

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  5. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idunno View Post
    Why?
    ...are you joking? EAT ME, DRINK ME is full of Alice in Wonderland influence and references.

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  7. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dipp Six View Post
    ...are you joking? EAT ME, DRINK ME is full of Alice in Wonderland influence and references.
    Names:

    White Rabbit

    Eat Me, Drink Me

    Being the obvious.

    I am sure there is something titled 'The Mad Hatter' or 'The Cheshire Cat' rolling around in a notebook. :P
    Quid ignorantia sit multi ignorant.

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  9. #45
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    I never read the book or watched the movie, but now I will. The album reminded me of Tim Burton films though, and especially the video for Putting Holes In Happiness.
    "We were too dumb to run, too dead to die."

  10. #46
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    I just noticed that "high" and "low" have been referenced quite a few times by Manson:

    The Dope Show - "There's a lots of pretty, pretty ones, that want to get you
    high. But all the pretty, pretty ones, will leave you low and blow your mind."

    Heart-Shaped Glasses - "That blue is getting me high and making me low."

    ...And then BOOM!; The High End of Low. This is a life-changing discovery, guys.
    "We were too dumb to run, too dead to die."

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  12. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idunno View Post
    I just noticed that "high" and "low" have been referenced quite a few times by Manson:

    The Dope Show - "There's a lots of pretty, pretty ones, that want to get you
    high. But all the pretty, pretty ones, will leave you low and blow your mind."

    Heart-Shaped Glasses - "That blue is getting me high and making me low."

    ...And then BOOM!; The High End of Low. This is a life-changing discovery, guys.
    As above, so below. The high end of low is the meeting point of the above and below, or Tiferet. And now you know. ;)

  13. #48
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    A lot like "High and Overneath". Like he's floating but sinking. High and low.

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  15. #49
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    • Portrait of an American Family - Produced by Trent Reznor
    • Antichrist Superstar - Produced by Trent Reznor & Dave "Rave" Ogilvie
    • Mechanical Animals - Produced by Michael Beinhorn
    • Holy Wood - Produced by Dave Sardy
    • The Golden Age of Grotesque - Produced by Marilyn Manson & Tim Skold
    • Eat Me Drink Me - Produced by Marilyn Manson & Tim Skold
    • The High End of Low - Produced by Marilyn Manson, Chris Vrenna, Twiggy
    • Born Villain - Produced by Marilyn Manson
    • The Pale Emperor - Produced by Marilyn Manson and Tyler Bates



    See, I think the deal is that the more influence there is from outside of the band, the better the final result. I'm not saying the albums that are produced more "in house" are bad, per se, but they are the ones where fan opinions split the most. The Pale Emperor, which as far as I can tell is universally loved, is sort of a special case; I mean, Tyler's technically in the band, but he's also a successful producer by trade and I still think of him as an outside influence - Marilyn Manson isn't his day job.

    My point is that the best, most consistent albums are the ones where there's a voice from outside the band offering guidance. Someone to say "that's good, but it could be even better if you do this, this, and this".
    This space intentionally left blank.

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  17. #50
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    Wow i bought a new pair of headphones, the sound is great. I started listening to The High End of Low... what a trip! The atmosphere is great in this one.

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