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Thread: Do you enjoy Born Villain more than The Pale Emperor?

  1. #51
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    S.D.'s Avatar
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    Do you know what, I might have been sorely overlooking Twiggy's role when submitting this topic. The more I think about it, I was briefly unsure what to make of The Golden Age Of Grotesque when I heard it, and despite the comparative minimalism musically, the same goes for EAT ME, DRINK ME. The High End Of Low and Born Villain, however, I was hooked immediately, just like Holy Wood or Mechanical Animals.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike ...Grotesque or EAT ME, DRINK ME obviously, but having now had a period where as songwriter, Twiggy helmed The Triptych, then went away, then returned and took an even more central role on two albums, but now only performs new material live, I can see that the records he contributes to are far more to my taste. I don't particularly enjoy anything by Tim Skold that he's written outside of Marilyn Manson, and couldn't name you a piece of Tyler Bates music, much less anything by Daisy. With Twiggy however, I love Goon Moon, and anything he's put his name to really. Even songs on The Pale Emperor written by Bates, but which were clearly emulating the balls-deep style Twiggy employs are my favourites on the record; Third Day Of A Seven Day Binge and Slave Only Dreams To Be King.

    As @Korpz has also pointed out, Born Villain also has a wealth of lyricism that I really resonate with, especially during Children Of Cain, Hey, Cruel World..., Overneath The Path Of Misery, and yeah, I'll fucking say it... Slo-Mo-Tion.
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  3. #52
    Threskiornis's Avatar
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    Both are definitely my top 2 post-triptych albums, but I love Born Villain SO much. Looking at it objectively I think Pale Emperor is better in terms of production, polished song-writing and Manson's vocal performance overall, but BV just has its own unique charm and energy to it that I haven't really felt in a Manson album since Portrait of an American Family.

    For context, I first became a Manson fan around 2006 or so, when he was "retired" and my initial impression of him was through his more aggressive first 5 albums. So when Eat Me Drink Me was announced, I was at first extremely excited and then very disappointed, from how much of a departure it was from his earlier music. But I still stuck with him through both that era and through High End of Low, even though both albums are much too low energy and (for lack of a better word) broody for my taste (even though there are some songs I really love on both of them!). Anyway, imagine my excitement when the I Am Among No One teaser came out, when No Reflection was released, when the Born Villain film/trailer came out (I don't care what Manson says about Shia LaBeouf; I still think the BV film stands as the best Manson video since 2003, and nothing he's released since then has managed to top it). To me BV was a fantastic return to form, and a return to the energy, aggression, imagery and conceptual lyrics of his older work that first made me a fan. And it was so refreshing to see Manson get that fire back after seeming so aimless and despondent on EMDM and THEOL.

    While I think Pale Emperor is a pretty energetic and driven album as well, and it's clear that Manson was much more inspired and motivated on that record than on BV, out of all of Manson's post-triptych albums Born Villain will always be one of the most unique and satisfying albums to me. It might be the rawness (while PE is more refined and polished), it might be the tongue-in-cheek, back-to-the-roots vibe (where PE is more mature and kind of in its own place when compared to other Manson albums), it might just be because I was paying a lot more attention to the pre-release updates and teasers (whereas with PE I kind of fell out of the fandom due to life events etc). Whichever the case, Born Villain is definitely my third favorite Manson album after Holy Wood and Antichrist.

    And I definitely agree with both Korpz and S.D. that it deserves so much more attention both for its songwriting and for Twiggy's musicianship (I'm going to be so bummed out if Twiggy isn't on HUD; I love him as well). Hey Cruel World, No Reflection, Overneath the Path of Misery, The Gardener, Disengaged (yeah I know everyone hates it but I love this song with a passion lol) and Murderers are Getting Prettier Everyday are some of my favorite Manson songs, and I enjoy them just as much now as I did when BV first came out.

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  5. #53
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    Great post [though I personally adore Eat Me, Drink Me]. The only thing I could add to it is that "The Flowers Of Evil" alone makes the album worth the purchase price. If that song had the production values of The Pale Emperor to fill out its excellent composition I think we'd be talking about it in the same breath as other experimental Manson tracks predating it like "The Minute Of Decay" or "A Place In The Dirt" or "Para-Noir".
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  7. #54

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    Absolutely no. I love all of TPE and only about three songs from Born Villain.

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  9. #55

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    Born Villain is amongst my least favourite Manson albums.

    I didn't like the front cover. I didn't like the simplicity of the CD. I didn't "feel" the era. The Shia Video really really excited me but after that it just fell flat.

    Musically, It has one of my favourite songs on it (Overneath) and it has a couple of other strong songs such as Hey Cruel World and Born Villain and Breaking the same old ground. Indeed, it even has some great bits within songs (Lay down your.... The flowers of evil). However songs like No Reflection and the gardener are so bland. Pistol Whipped is so slow and Disengaged is just manson by numbers which isn't too bad but it doesn't feel right in the context of the album.

    The main problem i have with the album is that the songs just drag too much. The songs have too long an intro... the songs take too long to build up to the enjoyable parts of the song. When i put the album on I end up skipping the songs because I don't like them or because i can't be bothered to wait for the good parts. I suppose the songs individually might work if they were spread into other albums. but all together its a struggle.

    The Pale Emperor on the other hand hit me as soon as I saw Manson on his throne! The title just impressed. the imagery. everything.

    Then I put the record on for the first time... The atmosphere of the album is outstanding. production too. Third day of a seven day binge is my least favourite song because it drags, but guess what. I listen to it every time because the rest of the album doesn't drag. so it fits in nicely. in BV, when they all drag, it becomes a drag...

    The songs are positioned so well. Just as things are slowed down, Warship My Wreck comes on and blew me away. First time I heard it, His voice sounded like a madman.. I didn't know what to make of it other than... wow... this is so interesting! It took a good few listens to get into it and then i realised how good it was. The other songs thereafter may not be his strongest but the atmosphere fits so well with the album. Then there is Cupid Carries a Gun that is placed in just the right place to boost the album. and keep the interest going (its a brilliant song) followed by the closer (again not his best by a long stretch but it just works).

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  11. #56
    Not man enough to b human Manson15Marilyn's Avatar
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    Yes. I've always liked Born Villain more than Pale Emperor. And The High End of Low... and EAT ME DRINK ME.

    Its not that its bad, I just like the three preceding albums so much that when Pale Emperor came out it didn't seem as good by comparison, particularly in lyrics.

    EDIT: Misread the question. Lol
    Last edited by Manson15Marilyn; 09-22-2017 at 03:35 AM.
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  12. #57
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    It feels weird to me to hear people complaining about albums that "drag" or w/e.

    Sometimes I WANT an album that drags.

    And if I DON'T feel like listening to that album at any given moment then nbd...I have like a million other albums on hand to suit whatever I'm in the mood to hear instead, y'know? And HEY look at that, PROBLEM = SOLVED. No need for online whining or shittalking great art or any of that entitled bullshit. Just listen to it or don't. Life goes on, regardless.

    On the other hand, it's worth challenging yourself with art. Disliking something immediately doesn't necessarily mean you don't need to hear it. Albums don't "get better" over time, YOU get better and hopefully less retarded and finally able to see what you were too ignorant to appreciate before.

    It's also especially weird to see people get so wound up about stuff like that in the Internet Age -- and ON THE INTERNET, no less -- when almost every fucking album ever made is just a few keystrokes and mouse-clicks away. It's like having a grandparent who constantly emails questions and complaints about shit they could've just googled themselves.

    If you don't like an album and you're complaining about it on the internet then the solution to your problem is literally right in front of your face.

    >__>

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  14. #58
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    I have avoided this thread as I don't have anything to say in answer. I prefer listening to Born Villain when I am in the mood to hear Born Villain, and likewise I prefer listening to The Pale Emperor when I am want the sound and feelings that The Pale Emperor invokes me. Manson is not music I listen to as 'background' - if you want a sensible conversation with me, then don't put it on. I listen to Manson in the morning on the way to work when I am commuting when I have my headphones in and no one is talking. The album, or song that I choose is designed to set up the flavour of my day, or my week, my month, or respond to my own emotional state. I pretty much have listened to some sort of Manson daily since 1994, even if only one song. I choose by the mood I want to invoke off the overall sound of the album (or song), the emotions I want to regulate and channel (if I am playing Mechanical Animals obsessively then I am not happy), or the sound I really want to hear, or the imagery and era I want. I will listen to it on a loop, or in stages, to the imperfections, until I wring it dry and can move on.

    Born Villain tends to be around Spring time or parts of summer, it has a slick blackness, and lots of strangeness to the soundscape (re production: god knows I listen to enough stuff with worse production values, I can learn to deal), but enough tumult to set me into a headspace that is restless and grasping. Matches often the unsettled feeling of energy. I also love the lyrics. But I do need to be cheerful for it. Usually tag team it with a lot of The Cure or Sisters of Mercy, Siouxie and the Banshees and Fields of the Nephilim. Pale Emperor is when I want swagger and clarity. I want straightforward sounds, foot stomping hooks, and a place to draw my confidence from. If I am solely looking for vocals and that fragile, friable breakdown of his voice, then duh. What else would I choose? It can also act as a nice palette cleanser between some of the albums I need to move on from but am struggling to extricate myself out of.

    I can't prefer one or the other as they are all wound tightly into my daily existence over half my life, and all have their uses. Nor would I want to.
    Last edited by Enname; 09-22-2017 at 06:32 PM. Reason: Spell check.
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  16. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazekiah View Post
    It feels weird to me to hear people complaining about albums that "drag" or w/e.

    Sometimes I WANT an album that drags.

    And if I DON'T feel like listening to that album at any given moment then nbd...I have like a million other albums on hand to suit whatever I'm in the mood to hear instead, y'know? And HEY look at that, PROBLEM = SOLVED. No need for online whining or shittalking great art or any of that entitled bullshit. Just listen to it or don't. Life goes on, regardless.

    On the other hand, it's worth challenging yourself with art. Disliking something immediately doesn't necessarily mean you don't need to hear it. Albums don't "get better" over time, YOU get better and hopefully less retarded and finally able to see what you were too ignorant to appreciate before.

    It's also especially weird to see people get so wound up about stuff like that in the Internet Age -- and ON THE INTERNET, no less -- when almost every fucking album ever made is just a few keystrokes and mouse-clicks away. It's like having a grandparent who constantly emails questions and complaints about shit they could've just googled themselves.

    If you don't like an album and you're complaining about it on the internet then the solution to your problem is literally right in front of your face.

    >__>
    Wow... you do realise the question was asked? People are replying to the question posted in a forum.

    Rather than just saying “no, pale emperor is superior”, some of us give more constructive reasons. Some of us even point out that born villain had fantastic songs on it, so how is that whining?

    For me I liked born villain initially and then found it boring once the newness wore out.. dragging on... and I also pointed out in isolation dragging on might be ok but not a whole album. And even if “sometimes” I wanted a full album to drag on then it’s much less often than others so the point is still valid as to why I prefer TPE. According to you I NEED to like all albums equally and never provide my views on why some songs or albums are of less interest to me than others. What a boring fucking world that would be! Flower power!

  17. #60

    Join Date: 04.09.12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazekiah View Post
    It feels weird to me to hear people complaining about albums that "drag" or w/e.

    Sometimes I WANT an album that drags.

    And if I DON'T feel like listening to that album at any given moment then nbd...I have like a million other albums on hand to suit whatever I'm in the mood to hear instead, y'know? And HEY look at that, PROBLEM = SOLVED. No need for online whining or shittalking great art or any of that entitled bullshit. Just listen to it or don't. Life goes on, regardless.

    On the other hand, it's worth challenging yourself with art. Disliking something immediately doesn't necessarily mean you don't need to hear it. Albums don't "get better" over time, YOU get better and hopefully less retarded and finally able to see what you were too ignorant to appreciate before.

    It's also especially weird to see people get so wound up about stuff like that in the Internet Age -- and ON THE INTERNET, no less -- when almost every fucking album ever made is just a few keystrokes and mouse-clicks away. It's like having a grandparent who constantly emails questions and complaints about shit they could've just googled themselves.

    If you don't like an album and you're complaining about it on the internet then the solution to your problem is literally right in front of your face.

    >__>
    I'm not sure I really understand where you are coming from. What does it mean to want an album that drags? There's good and tasteful songwriting that can keep a song interesting beyond simple verse-chorus structures and there are albums that are not immediately accessible but may possess greater value longterm once nuances and intricacies are fully absorbed or if listened to in the right frame of mind (which you alluded to). However, dragging betrays a negative connotation. Actually, one of my minor complaints about Holy Wood, even with its album length, is that there are many short catchy songs that come off as being formulaic and could have been a lot better if they were further fleshed out.

    Are you against music criticism? Is a Marilyn Manson album, to you, really that interchangeable with an album from any other band? One of the biggest reasons for fans criticizing a Manson album is because of heightened expectations and general fandom from past positive experiences and subjectivity. Can't a bad album just be a bad album or does it only mean that the listener is too ignorant to comprehend the artist's vision?
    Last edited by SangreV; 09-23-2017 at 02:43 PM.

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