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Thread: Jeordie White, no longer a member of Marilyn Manson.

  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by 404 View Post
    I guess Twiggy lost himself in Alcohol when the accusation popped up and several days later both Manson and Twiggy decided to stop it right there for his well.

    They are also humans aswell. Those things can smash you right back into your addiction. I've seen so much stuff about/from Twiggy that I can clearly say: he is a good guy. IF it's true, then he was a young man who dropped the record-deal of his life and didn't know how to not act like an idiot rockstar. So he may took what he wanted, endorphines everywhere. And she was young and didn't know how to say "no", you know?

    - Saul Goodman
    Me and a few people on reddit have been watching Jessicka, Manson and Twiggy's social media sinse the accusation came out. Manson was liking tweets of Jessickas even ones that insulted him. Our guess is Manson talked to Jessicka and Twiggy over the weekend. Then the decision was made. Although people keep forgetting the record label could have had a lot of weight in this decision. Seeing as the band is their investment.

    Even if Twiggy fell off the wagon or the accusation is false, it doesn't really matter to the label. With the current atmosphere in the entertainment world right now the smartest thing to do is distance yourself from the accused. Manson goes out of his way to state Twiggy is departing from the band, which implies they will remain friends, but won't work together. If Twiggy is innocent and Manson defended him, the results would not bennifet any one in the Manson camp. The Court of Public Opinion already declared his guilt.

    Sadly we live in a world where if someone, especially in the entertainment industry right now, is accused publicly of sexual assault or rape, the accused is automatucally assumed guilty. To the point where if you approach the accusation with any amount of skeptism, you are automatically marked as part of the problem. "One of the reasons rape victims don't come forward immediately." When all you did was ask a logical question about a detail in the story or strongly believe someone is innocent until proven guilty. No matter what the accusation is.

    It used to be no one believed the victim. Now over the last 10 years the pendulum has swung. Leading us to the other side of the spectrum, no one doubts or questions the accuser. She said it, so it happened! Hopefully we reach the middle ground some day.

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by cataract777 View Post
    Why does an asshole on Twitter talk about things he knows nothing about to make an example about politics?
    "We were too dumb to run, too dead to die."

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  5. #43
    Married to Suedehead Shangri-LIE's Avatar
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    ---
    Last edited by Shangri-LIE; 10-25-2017 at 07:15 AM.
    OMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOM


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  7. #44
    cold blows the wind Golden Eel's Avatar
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    I decided to make a point addressing my feelings about Jeordie because it really seems like people think they have to choose between enjoying his work and revoking their fandom. It absolutely doesn't have to be that cut and dry. I was realizing earlier that I hadn't even really processed this yet. But I'm an adult so complex or contradictory feelings are okay and can be managed. There's nobody compelling you to go 100% in any one direction but I'm seeing an awful lot of that right now, in both directions.

    Twiggy Ramirez has been a pretty big part of my musical growth since arond puberty. So I figured I'd do a quick jog down memory lane and scatter around some relevant Twiggy clips.

    Marilyn Manson was the first real music I got into in my freshman year of high school. It had a big effect on my tastes going forward, it was the seed. So I was just as infatuated with Twiggy as any other kid first getting into Manson. I'm from a pretty rural area and I didn't understand a lot of things about the world. I didn't realize that a guy could dress up like a girl and still be manly - and that apparently girls were super into it.

    It was all so new and fascinating to me, so watching those old interviews and seeing these surreal alien clown people on Phil Donahue was insane to me. And I loved it. It might be fair to say that Twiggy played just as much a part of me getting into Marilyn Manson as Manson himself. That dichotomy of the id and the super-ego doing an interview together was an essential part of Marilyn Manson. You could say I especially gravitated towards the character of a dead-eyed mumbling crazy person who, despite sitting right in front of you, is not anywhere in this solar system. It's been 12 years and I still have to convince myself that I wouldn't look so goddamn awesome with ratty dreads like that!

    And then I grew up and my tastes slowly expanded, and wouldn't you know it? Jeordie somehow made his way there before me. I got into Nine Inch Nails primarily through watching Beside You In Time on DVD a billion times. It was so awesome to me that Twiggy was in two bands I love now.

    Soon after that I discovered Maynard's body of work and fell in love with A Perfect Circle. Many people disagree, but Thirteenth Step is a perfect album to me and it blows Mer De Noms out of the water. And surprise, Twiggy did bass on that album (and it's got some real sexy moments) and toured with them for a while, fitting like a glove.

    His run with APC really helped cement him as, despite being a whole new person than he was even 5 years prior, a guy I thought was immeasurably fucking cool and talented and hilarious. Jeordie doing duets of Fred's Slacks with Maynard on that tour is one of my favorite old school APC moments. There's plenty of clips of Jeordie and those guys fucking around on and off-stage back in those days. I've probably watched more APC interviews with Jeordie than any other band or artist. I thought these motherfuckers were so smooth and cocky and funny, always making the interviewers regret their decisions. I listened to this three part radio interview with Jeordie and Josh probably 500 times back in the day.

    For some reason, it seems like Goon Moon isn't really popular even among the Manson community. Which I think is outrageous, because Goon Moon has some seriously great tracks. For those of you who haven't listened, at least check out some of the standout tracks on Licker's Last Leg. Although fair warning, some of their overall best songs were only released on their MySpace in low quality, with no professionally recorded/mastered versions available.

    Some of you might also be interested in hearing the origins of Four Rusted Horses in Goon Moon demos. There are two versions actually. The Dog 2 is a 9 minute long instrumental. And then there's Somewheretohide which has vocals but is overall much more distorted and harsh. I could not find it anywhere online unadulterated, so I uploaded it myself.

    And as a few special mentions:

    - UNKLE - Burn My Shadow
    - He's all over Desert Sessions 9/10, which is easily the best one. Here's a fucking amazing track with Josh Homme and PJ Harvey on vocals, in which Jeordie wrote the killer guitar part.
    - Gotta throw in Good Life. Hot dog.

    Anyway. I kind of bounced back and forth for several hours on this, watching old clips of Jeordie and remembering new things to look up. But that just proves my point.

    The guy might have some issues or demons, past or present, but that doesn't mean you have to completely forget about him forever. Just like you don't have to convince yourself he's innocent simply because you love him. I guess the intention of this post was to make clear that it's possible to separate your adoration of Twiggy from the idea that he might have done some bad shit in the past. I don't want to restate the entire argument for why it's not an unrealistic claim again, but it's beyond something as simple as everybody just believing one woman's assertions at face value with no other considerations.

    Frankly, as somebody who clearly has been a fan of this dude for years as well as somebody who goes out of their way to not associate with the SJW rape-culture types, by all accounts I should be defending him right now and attacking this random goth chick who I have no feelings toward whatsoever. But if somebody like me can realize that all the evidence points towards him having had some serious issues in the past, it's tough to believe that the defenders here are trying to approach this rationally and not from a place of blind kneejerk instinct. More specifically it seems to be a good mix of the two normal groups you always in these situations - fans faithful to the end and soapbox types who feel the need to turn any conversation about rape into a fight for men's rights.

    He has clearly changed. To what degree is unknown to anybody but him, but he has acknowledged many times that he was overtaken by the Twiggy Ramirez character and he did not enjoy who he had become. Hence the drastic change in his style and demeanor after departing from Manson the first time. He may not have any early 90's Jeordie left inside of him. He's probably not beyond forgiveness.

    Here's an article more thoroughly addressing the exact subject I'm touching on, i.e. how to square the idea that somebody you love might not be perfect. So if any of you are still on the fence trying to fathom all of this, maybe try to resist the urge to immediately defend a person that you're a fan of and think about it as if he was any random guy.
         

    and with just one faint glance back into the sea
    the mollusk lingers with its wandering eye
      
      

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  9. #45
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    Manson did the right thing. You can't go against american culture, hypocrisy, values -or lack of-, and then be making music with a rapist.

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  11. #46
    You the Chicken Christina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shangri-LIE View Post
    ---
    I agree with this ^ post! Lol


    When I first read the part where Twiggy mentioned his sobriety I thought it was a shot at Manson, but now that I'm reading other opinions on it, I realized how negative minded I am. :(

    Well.. Whether he's in the band or not he's still and always will be TWIGGY RAMIREZ!
    I hope he continues something with Goon Moon or something because twig truly and really is talented with or without Marilyn Fucking Manson

  12. #47
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    Here's a thing no one likes to talk about; You don't have to be a violent person to make violent music, but that music is still coming from a real place within the people making it. Living that life every day is not an act and the music they obsessively made is not just some impersonal product. I have no doubt that most members of the band were capable of bad shit back in the day, and we've all read LHROOH, we know that they're crazy people.

    It gets tricky when an accusation comes up so many years after the incident. 2017 Jeordie is an entirely different person from 90s Twiggy, unless it's all a facade and he's been running around raping people all these years, this accusation doesn't change my view of his current persona, only his past one.

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  14. #48
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    Just a few things here, and then I am going to stop contributing to this divisive topic:

    1. You can suspect that Jeordie is probably guilty without being histrionic or crucifying him. Most of us who believe Jessicka’s story really aren’t being unreasonable hysterics about it. He’s obviously changed because he didn’t like who he was, and I think that’s great. But sometimes the past catches up with people.

    2. Everybody believes rape accusers? Clearly not. Just look at this board, with the number of folks defending Jeordie or remaining neutral.

    3. I have serious issues with the occasional mob mentality attitude of social justice activists, but the men currently being called out in the entertainment industry are almost definitely guilty due to overwhelming evidence. When dozens and dozens of women come forward about the behavior of people like Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, and James Toback, all telling incredibly similar stories without having communicated with each other . . . well, where there’s smoke there’s usually fire.

    4. Jessicka is clearly a troubled person and we’ll never know the whole story of what happened. I’ve worried about her mental state on more than one occasion. Is there a chance she’s lost it or is completely delusional? Of course. But her fear and trepidation and anger towards Jeordie have been well-documented in interviews with her for almost twenty years. This isn’t something that just happened out of the blue. The rape accusation itself goes back to 2015. And, as she has reiterated several times, her main reason for coming forward was the guilt she felt after other women reached out to her about abuse they allegedly suffered from Jeordie.

    5. Why did Jessicka tour with MM in 1999? As explained in her statement, according to Jessicka she was pressured by her label. MM were at the peak of their commercial success and popularity, and it was considered too good an opportunity for Jack Off Jill to pass up. Plus, if she had spoken out at the time about these allegations, Manson’s lawyers would have had her for lunch and that would have been the end of her career, in all likelihood.

    6. Manson himself exaggerates shit because he’s nothing if not his own salesman. But it’s pretty well established the band’s treatment towards women, especially in the 90s. They bragged about the vile, degrading things they did to women and underage girls, and Jeordie was especially known for it. Clearly, some people felt he crossed some lines.

    7. I have no clue if Manson actually believes Jessicka or if this was self-preservation. More than likely this was a tough choice for him to make, but ultimately it was the right one, even if it was a business decision more than anything. But who knows if Jeordie is even permanently gone from the band? Wait and see how this plays out. It’s highly doubtful there will be any legal consequences, though.

    Lastly, and not to overshare, but before we were together, my ex-wife was in a relationship much like the one Jessicka describes. She spent years being tormented emotionally and physically by her partner, and at the end of their time together, a fight turned into a brutal rape. The parallels are eerie. Obviously, this doesn’t make Jeordie guilty, as every situation is different. But the pattern Jessicka is describing is not an uncommon one in abusive relationships. To this day, my ex’s rapist walks free. He tells people she’s a lying whore and makes it sound like she’s just a crazy bitch who fucked him over. Why didn’t she report him? Because at that point, she just wanted it to be over and to get the hell away from him. He has suffered no consequences for his behavior and never will. After a day or two how could she prove anything happened? Her brother is even still friends with this man. He says “it was a long time ago” and “there’s two sides to every story.” Her own brother rationalizes this, and he loves his sister and is one of the sweetest people I’ve ever met. It doesn’t take much to enable or excuse an abuser’s behavior, and there was, at least at one time, an environment within the band Marilyn Manson that absolutely could foster abuse. I hope that period is truly gone.

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  16. #49
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    I will miss these special Manson/Twiggy vibes. I liked Twiggy, I'm deeply disappointed in him! I was so happy when he came back, now to find out he's a rapist! I don't wish him luck for the future like some PMers did - I hope his wife leaves him like the wife of Weinstein.

  17. #50
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    Manson choice of words didn't helped Twiggy at all IMO. It wasn't "Jeordie isn't longer with the band" or "we decided blablabla", it was "I DECIDED TO PART WAYS with Jordie...". Maybe it was just a PR move, but it seems he was really kicked out and nothing with that sobriety excuse that Twiggy said. Anyway, it was the best decision.
    "The tragedy is not to die, but to be wasted."

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