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Thread: CHAOS

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    Default CHAOS

    I'm not deconstructing "WE ARE CHAOS". We've yet to hear the entire album. All I can say is that for me, personally, the song is both about being resigned to a "wicked fucking world" while at the same time setting an atmosphere of hope and positivism. I've seen people interpret the song as it is, without needing to decode anything, to peel apart layers of abstruse messages, because there are none, that it's just quite literally about "The world being a fucked up place, and that's okay.". *Side Note - I'm going to make a prediction that this could be, other than Mechanical Animals, the only other record out of his discography with no filler tracks.

    I'm simply happy with the song and how it's composed. How it's presented. Even the video. I get the feeling, and I could be wrong, that perhaps he wants to just be married and have a child. Leave a lot of the bullshit behind. I've been feeling this way for a while now. He literally had a newborn in the video with his "masks" as a nursery motif. Perhaps it's him knowing that that he can both still be Manson and balance it with an orderly personal life? That's just my uncomplicated take on it.

    Anyway, I just wanted to open a discussion about how chaos is perceived. Whenever people see or hear the word chaos, it's usually only perceived as confusion, mayhem, doom, pandemonium, a black hole that our psyches can't fathom. Chaos in Cosmology is about a dualism between the malevolent and the benevolent. Chaos can be something beautiful. It's not all about disruption and upheaval. Chaos and Order coexist can be interchangeable.

    I'll just end this with a Game of Thrones quote -

    "Chaos isn't a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some, are given a chance to climb. They refuse, they cling to the realm or the gods or love. Illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.
    OMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOM


  2. #2
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    The first interpretation that occurred to me was Chaos as the Alpha, the Beginning. "At the beginning, there was Chaos," my Greek mythology textbook told me when I was in high school; and even then, those words had a strangely intoxicating, beguiling effect on me. That's why I never forgot them. So... "We are Chaos" - "We are the beginning of all things, the birthplace of all worlds."
    This isn't my interpretation of the song, however - just the title. I haven't heard the song yet and I'm unlikely to do it anytime soon. I must Get Ready first.
    Fated, Faithful... and Floating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunatic/Mystic View Post
    The first interpretation that occurred to me was Chaos as the Alpha, the Beginning. "At the beginning, there was Chaos," my Greek mythology textbook told me when I was in high school; and even then, those words had a strangely intoxicating, beguiling effect on me. That's why I never forgot them. So... "We are Chaos" - "We are the beginning of all things, the birthplace of all worlds."
    This isn't my interpretation of the song, however - just the title. I haven't heard the song yet and I'm unlikely to do it anytime soon. I must Get Ready first.
    Yeah, I've had a lot of conversations about chaos theory and different philosophies with friends and other random people since I was a kid. I don't fixate on it, but different theories and philosophies about predictability and probability are fun to read up on and discuss from time to time. Even recently, prior to the album title and single being dropped, I'd been discussing the abstract structures of chaos.

    As for you not having listened to the song yet, I can understand that. I think that this has been Manson's first real re-invention since 2002. I don't think it's controversial to say that. Then again, we haven't heard the entire album. I think it's going to be an interesting journey to sit down and listen to. "Destroy to open".
    OMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOM


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    Quote Originally Posted by Shangri-LIE View Post
    Even recently, prior to the album title and single being dropped, I'd been discussing the abstract structures of chaos.
    Yeah, I had been thinking about chaos in philosophical terms too. As a matter of fact, I had imagined talking with MM about it! Mainly about God as the opposite of Chaos - you know, God as eternal order. In his article on Columbine, MM wrote that "man's greatest fear is chaos"; and if so, God is clearly supposed to be an antidote to this greatest fear. However, if God or the ultimate reality or the Rock of Ages on which this world is built is eternal order - an essentially Apollonian principle - then it would seem that anything chaotic, Dionysian, is only a fleeting illusion... a mere shadow on the face of this Apollonian ultimate reality. But I don't subscribe to this worldview at all. Eternal order is boring. I want eternal chaos. I am a bacchant, a lover of Dionysus.

    There seems to be a rule: the more Pagan-spirited (i.e. polytheistic) a culture is, the more it embraces Chaos as something good. The idea of God (i.e. the Greatest Good) as eternal order seems to be a staple of monotheistic religions. But what about our Western culture? I'm not sure if it really is monotheistic - with all that celebrity worship going on.
    Fated, Faithful... and Floating.

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    “One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star.” F. Nietzsche

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunatic/Mystic View Post
    Yeah, I had been thinking about chaos in philosophical terms too. As a matter of fact, I had imagined talking with MM about it! Mainly about God as the opposite of Chaos - you know, God as eternal order. In his article on Columbine, MM wrote that "man's greatest fear is chaos"; and if so, God is clearly supposed to be an antidote to this greatest fear. However, if God or the ultimate reality or the Rock of Ages on which this world is built is eternal order - an essentially Apollonian principle - then it would seem that anything chaotic, Dionysian, is only a fleeting illusion... a mere shadow on the face of this Apollonian ultimate reality. But I don't subscribe to this worldview at all. Eternal order is boring. I want eternal chaos. I am a bacchant, a lover of Dionysus.

    There seems to be a rule: the more Pagan-spirited (i.e. polytheistic) a culture is, the more it embraces Chaos as something good. The idea of God (i.e. the Greatest Good) as eternal order seems to be a staple of monotheistic religions. But what about our Western culture? I'm not sure if it really is monotheistic - with all that celebrity worship going on.
    As I've stated in another thread recently, I've known and still know who people live by different creeds, world views, codes, and whatnot. I've never judged them. I've learned not to be a prescriptive person. That's not to say I'm all accepting or respectful of. Most people are p-Zombies, lacking an inner monologues. So, I tend not to really engage people on a basis other than just acknowledging their corporeal presence and I actually find those interactions more fascinating. Speaking to people whose brains literally aren't wired to have an ego or conceptual semantics. For the most part, this world is a lot like the SIMS where people are just planking. I've also never set out to find a real path in any philosophy or orthodoxy. I've never been one to try and find assurity in much. I'm just here. I just exist. That's not to say I don't have any personal convictions, ethics, whatever is considered an acceptable compass of morality, or my own independent thoughts. That's just one reason why "WE ARE CHAOS" resonated with me. So many people are looking for things to decode, who seek apocryphal tales as a drug to make up for a lack of being able to confront who they are, if they even are, so they feed off of other people and their substances. People think being complicated makes them exceptional. That's why "Maybe I'm just a mystery. I could end up your misery" stuck out to me. If you're looking for too many answers without the ability to compartmentalize, everything falls apart more than any real answers being found. People who are constantly trying to "find themselves" create more internal discord and perpetual struggle than anything else. The constant need to have other people co-narrate their existence is more harmful than just accepting that nothing is ever going to make total sense and being okay with that. This has led me to be deliberately obtuse (a right cunt) and I know that's fucked up and actually resent that part of myself whenever I am in the mood to behave that way.

    Even whenever it comes to my "Shangri-LIE persona", I know it's all poppycock. Prior to any established forum for Manson, I used to just read chat room banter and sometimes attempt to communicate with others, and I couldn't understand the infighting. The need to be the "number one fan". The absolute cut throat, vicious, far from respectable, understood rules and unity of being a fan base. There was such an atypical attitude held that deviated from any other base where people of the metal, pop, rock, (whatever) genre shared. Before I registered the username that I still use, I had already been just observing and interacting with Manson fans for about 9 - 10 years prior to that. Then I discovered "The Phant".I spent a lot of time just in complete disgust, other than reading the archives, with how people were presenting themselves and treating others, so I said "I'm gonna be a damn clown.". I remember the day I created this "persona" and registered on that site. It was before work one day and I was already drunk at 1 PM - lol - It may seem like it, but I never really have dedicated much time to it, despite my post counts over the years. Last thing I will say about myself, and I only am because you and others reading this only know me as "Shangs", which explains why there isn't more discussion in this thread, is that other than two people, my current girlfriend being one of those two, have ever accepted me once I've met them outside of the forums. I'm a pensive, self deprecating, just someone who enjoys company, having fun, down to earth conversations that seem "boring", and has almost always been met with "Hey! I thought you were really weird and erratic. Wtf? I thought you were gonna take me down a rabbit hole or chase me down mine!". Nope, nope and nope.

    I can both acknowledge empirically proven data and scientific models while at the same time being immersed in magical thinking world of the "extranormal" and spooktacular. Why not?

    I can see what you're saying. But, at the same time, what really is order? In all honesty, I wouldn't find eternal order boring. People too often confuse order with obeisance. I think people misunderstand the structure of order and "good" than than they do "chaos".
    Last edited by Shangri-LIE; 08-01-2020 at 07:34 AM.
    OMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOM


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    @Lunatic/Mystic - Thoughts? - lol - And also, I'm surprised more people haven't cared to comment on this. Probably because it's just another topic created by @Shangs. Not that I'm important. I just would like to know more peoples takes on what I'd posted.
    OMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOM


  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shangri-LIE View Post
    I'm not deconstructing "WE ARE CHAOS". We've yet to hear the entire album. All I can say is that for me, personally, the song is both about being resigned to a "wicked fucking world" while at the same time setting an atmosphere of hope and positivism. I've seen people interpret the song as it is, without needing to decode anything, to peel apart layers of abstruse messages, because there are none, that it's just quite literally about "The world being a fucked up place, and that's okay.". *Side Note - I'm going to make a prediction that this could be, other than Mechanical Animals, the only other record out of his discography with no filler tracks.

    I'm simply happy with the song and how it's composed. How it's presented. Even the video. I get the feeling, and I could be wrong, that perhaps he wants to just be married and have a child. Leave a lot of the bullshit behind. I've been feeling this way for a while now. He literally had a newborn in the video with his "masks" as a nursery motif. Perhaps it's him knowing that that he can both still be Manson and balance it with an orderly personal life? That's just my uncomplicated take on it.

    Anyway, I just wanted to open a discussion about how chaos is perceived. Whenever people see or hear the word chaos, it's usually only perceived as confusion, mayhem, doom, pandemonium, a black hole that our psyches can't fathom. Chaos in Cosmology is about a dualism between the malevolent and the benevolent. Chaos can be something beautiful. It's not all about disruption and upheaval. Chaos and Order coexist can be interchangeable.

    I'll just end this with a Game of Thrones quote -


    Well, Shangs, enjoyed your post. I also had similar thoughts to those you expressed in your original post. I also interpreted some sense of resignation to this wicked fucking world, but also the presence of flecks of hope and positivism woven into the fibers of the video/song. I really appreciated the song and video. It, as MM’s art usually does for me, forced me to think.
    I also thought of Chaos Theory and the butterfly, a pink and white one floating on a breeze through cheerful bright yellow flowers.
    I think “We are Chaos” is especially relevant with current affairs on a macro level. There is so much disorder and confusion lately. With the Covid-19 situation, racial matters, civil unrest and the pandemonium of an impending election, atop insurmountable conflicting data, evidence, theories and conspiracy theories, chaos appears exceedingly abundant as of late. At least that’s what the reporters say, and social media, and everyday people. But, when have those outlets ever focused on chaos and order equally?
    I also agree that chaos can be beautiful. But, as you mentioned, in a dualistic reality, so then there is also order, in all of its splendor, as well. I think of many philosophical representations. One in particular is the tree of life with its roots tunneling down into the depths of the earth…as far as its limbs branch out to the heavens.

    Chaos is defined as complete disorder and confusion. But, if one is confused, then they are not convinced of something. That can be viewed as a positive or negative. But, being assured of a thing, or having developed a “beLIEf” about something, leaves no room for conflicting information or evidence. Confusion opens a door by forcing one into actually making a choice of either working through things or imitating an ostrich.

    On a micro level, I also think of individuals who have experienced horrible beginnings in life, faced tremendous obstacles and lived in utter chaos. I am one. But, as with the potential for all things painful, bad and ugly, wounds can become wisdom. Live and learn, they say. There’s a method to the madness…and that’s a chaotically beautiful thing. On all levels.

    And your Game of Thrones quote reminds me of the story of Sisyphus in Greek mythology.
    The best time for
    new beginnings
    is NOW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenia View Post
    Well, Shangs, enjoyed your post. I also had similar thoughts to those you expressed in your original post. I also interpreted some sense of resignation to this wicked fucking world, but also the presence of flecks of hope and positivism woven into the fibers of the video/song. I really appreciated the song and video. It, as MM’s art usually does for me, forced me to think.
    I also thought of Chaos Theory and the butterfly, a pink and white one floating on a breeze through cheerful bright yellow flowers.
    I think “We are Chaos” is especially relevant with current affairs on a macro level. There is so much disorder and confusion lately. With the Covid-19 situation, racial matters, civil unrest and the pandemonium of an impending election, atop insurmountable conflicting data, evidence, theories and conspiracy theories, chaos appears exceedingly abundant as of late. At least that’s what the reporters say, and social media, and everyday people. But, when have those outlets ever focused on chaos and order equally?
    I also agree that chaos can be beautiful. But, as you mentioned, in a dualistic reality, so then there is also order, in all of its splendor, as well. I think of many philosophical representations. One in particular is the tree of life with its roots tunneling down into the depths of the earth…as far as its limbs branch out to the heavens.

    Chaos is defined as complete disorder and confusion. But, if one is confused, then they are not convinced of something. That can be viewed as a positive or negative. But, being assured of a thing, or having developed a “beLIEf” about something, leaves no room for conflicting information or evidence. Confusion opens a door by forcing one into actually making a choice of either working through things or imitating an ostrich.

    On a micro level, I also think of individuals who have experienced horrible beginnings in life, faced tremendous obstacles and lived in utter chaos. I am one. But, as with the potential for all things painful, bad and ugly, wounds can become wisdom. Live and learn, they say. There’s a method to the madness…and that’s a chaotically beautiful thing. On all levels.

    And your Game of Thrones quote reminds me of the story of Sisyphus in Greek mythology.
    Why was Manson the catalyst that force you to think? Don't take that the wrong way. I had to question everything and figure things out on my own well before I discovered Manson. Now, that's just speaking for myself. I've just never understood why fans of any particular artist say that they've the main reason for their development.

    Whenever it comes to chaos and order, there are multiple definitions and philosophies about both. But those definitions and philosophies have remained only that. Philosophies and theories. There are so many static, millenniums old hard wired evolutionary traits within the human element that will never be reversed. One of those indelible behaviors being racism. People want to "end it". That's never, ever going to happen. There never has been, currently doesn't nor will ever exist universal human dignity. That's why I cringe at "WOKE" and outrage culture. I can sympathize with progressives, morally, conceptually and in theory, but it falls short of realism. They're nothing more and nothing less than silicon addicted, hashtag virtue signaling eugenicists. It causes more more confusion and polarization than it does help people find the closest thing to resemble centralized equity. It's mutual gratification. Only.

    Whenever it comes to conspiracy theories, this current pandemic, the upcoming election, the conflicting info, infighting and tribal power struggles heading into this election, I ask again, "why is everyone so fucking surprised?". People think the world changed in 2016. It makes me laugh my fucking ass off. Whether it be the right or the left...No. ...Just. No. When it comes to the beauty in all of this chaos, I think it's just knowing who you are, knowing what makes you happy and being able to take care of yourself and be the best you for the people you love and care about the most. The ability to have your own ways of expression and interests, and not caring if people judge you for it. Adapting in your own ways without needing approval, guidance or feeling constrained by anyone else's norms are where the bright spots are.
    OMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOM


  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shangri-LIE View Post
    Why was Manson the catalyst that force you to think? Don't take that the wrong way. I had to question everything and figure things out on my own well before I discovered Manson. Now, that's just speaking for myself. I've just never understood why fans of any particular artist say that they've the main reason for their development.

    Whenever it comes to chaos and order, there are multiple definitions and philosophies about both. But those definitions and philosophies have remained only that. Philosophies and theories. There are so many static, millenniums old hard wired evolutionary traits within the human element that will never be reversed. One of those indelible behaviors being racism. People want to "end it". That's never, ever going to happen. There never has been, currently doesn't nor will ever exist universal human dignity. That's why I cringe at "WOKE" and outrage culture. I can sympathize with progressives, morally, conceptually and in theory, but it falls short of realism. They're nothing more and nothing less than silicon addicted, hashtag virtue signaling eugenicists. It causes more more confusion and polarization than it does help people find the closest thing to resemble centralized equity. It's mutual gratification. Only.

    Whenever it comes to conspiracy theories, this current pandemic, the upcoming election, the conflicting info, infighting and tribal power struggles heading into this election, I ask again, "why is everyone so fucking surprised?". People think the world changed in 2016. It makes me laugh my fucking ass off. Whether it be the right or the left...No. ...Just. No. When it comes to the beauty in all of this chaos, I think it's just knowing who you are, knowing what makes you happy and being able to take care of yourself and be the best you for the people you love and care about the most. The ability to have your own ways of expression and interests, and not caring if people judge you for it. Adapting in your own ways without needing approval, guidance or feeling constrained by anyone else's norms are where the bright spots are.
    Manson’s art was the catalyst to “force me to think”, specifically regarding the theme of the song/video, because that’s what we were discussing in this post…I thought. Wasn’t this post catalyzed by his art, ie., new song/video? We’ve all had to figure things out on our own in life. I never stated that Manson was the main reason for my development. But, if Manson or his art is what we’re talking about then….? And I believe we are on a forum currently that is kind of dedicated to his art, music, image, etc.. That’s why we’re here…amirite? lol
    However, his art has interested me for a while now and has served as a catalyst for change in my worldview and life. But, no more or less than anything else has. However, as with many people, we tend to focus on what interests us. Curiosity. Isn’t that one of the purposes of “art” anyway? Not just to serve as an outlet for one’s self as the artist, but also to “share” it with others. And being an observer of the art, you get to interpret it yourself. And as MM has even indicated before, there is a synergetic interpretation of art. And it’s meant to be a question, not an answer, which I sort of agree with that proposal. *shrugs*
    However, my dog has served as a catalyst for change for me as well. So have many other unrelated seemingly irrational and “off-the-wall” things in life. Maybe, I was just ready to change…who knows? But, I will say that Manson’s work was the catalyst for me in losing my religion. And THAT was a big change for me. And a very positive change.
    And Donald Trump being elected as President of the United States served as a catalyst for me in my losing my political hope or interest.
    Yes, there are multiple definitions and philosophies, but isn’t everything a theory or philosophy? And as far as racism is concerned, one could espouse that it is influenced by the hierarchal structures of “society”. And I don’t think it would impossible to eradicate it. All things are possible. Besides, evolutionary psychology is also ONLY a theory. Even evolutionary psychologists seem unwilling to draw lines between what can be taken as demonstrated and what remains speculative, making the discipline more of a “faith” than a science.
    Similar to religions, all theoretical and based on a similar idea, explained differently dependent on culture and era in time they were conceived. However, racism is systemic, a symptom of the current system, which I hope, we are witnessing the end of.
    I agree that the world changed in 2016…and it did before that and after that and it will keep on changing. It’s always changing. Change is the only thing we can be sure of in life. Well, that and death.
    However, I think one would be remiss to suggest that we have not witnessed increased changes in recent times. Our way of life has been impacted greatly just this year; from now being required to wear masks if we go out into public places, social distancing, our temperatures being taken and being repeatedly asked those annoying questions, limiting of consumers in one store or facility, limiting groups to 9 people or less, being sent home to work remotely if possible, or being laid off, businesses shutting down at increased rates, unemployment rising, and even prisoners were freed and criminals skirted jail-time because of overcrowding in jails, social unrest, riots and looting, protests, etc.. And all occurring simultaneously.

    I agree with your sentiments in the last paragraph. That’s freedom.
    The best time for
    new beginnings
    is NOW.

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